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Raize
08-06-2008, 05:44 PM
If this has been covered elsewhere, then if someone could point the way, would be appreciated.

One thing i've noticed with many raid leaders of perhaps lesser-progressed guilds is that they have a far inferior knowledge of the classes that they bring to a raid and how to combine them to maximise their raid's performance. I've seen some recently who say things like 'these are your groups, if you don't like them, or if they don't make sense, i really don't care'. The more characters I play, the more this is starting to get to me.

I don't confess to a knowledge of every class's abilities, cos i simply don't. I would suggest, however, that a successful raid leader would have some general concept, or at the very least, utilise their class leaders for this purpose.

I am curious to find a resource that covers the abilities that every class brings to a raid and how they can be used best to improve raid synergy.

Alternatively, would be interested to hear from people on their thoughts about various class utilities, where they are best suited and further my own understanding as well as the understanding of others.

Tatt
08-07-2008, 07:15 AM
Not sure where the best resource to find raid synergy info is. When I had a similar problem with a raid leader I told him flat out he was wasting his own time. Just by moving some people around in the raid he would improve everyone's abilities, and we would move much farther. If someone is too ignorant to look at the possible benefits of a little variation than its time to find a new guild.

mero12513
08-07-2008, 07:50 AM
The best resource to look for this is probably Elitist Jerks. They have several stickies/threads on group composition.

As a new raid leader myself, I'll generally ask for general opinions before we start things, just trying to get input from more experienced people (i.e. "Does anyone have any suggestions for a group composition change?")

These are the very, very simple guidelines I try to use:
A warlock with an imp is valuable with tanks.
A tree-form druid healer increases healing done to tanks.
Everybody wants a shaman, if possible.
Shadow priests give healers more mana (or caster dps, but I find healer mana to be more important and more constraining in my raids)
Boomkin druids make caster DPS go boom.

There are of course nuances and even important things I don't yet know, but I try to maximize what I can above and then ask for suggestions.

orcstar
08-07-2008, 08:54 AM
these are your groups, if you don't like them, or if they don't make sense, i really don't careI can so imagine myself saying this.
One of the things I've come to dread when leading raids (I'm don't consider myself a top raid leader) is that you can never cater everyone and there are 24 people in the raid who think they can make a better group setup. What happens is you get drowned in whispers about who to put in what group etc. etc. etc. A lot of these request aren't to make a better raid though. For instance all casters want to be in the group with the shadowpriest so if you have 1 sp and 14 other caster, you get whispers of the other 10 why THEY should be grouped with the SP. Most of the whispers you get are from people who want to increase their own performance and not about increasing the raids performance.
The result is that the real helpful whispers get drowned in this barrage of whispers.

So my advice is, first, read read read, to get your facts straight, and then have a chat with your raid leader. Best way to do this is imo not to tell him straight out how the setup would be but more like: "I see you choose this setup. Why do you choose that and not for instance this and that setup?" And have this chat not during a raid.

I hope he's open for suggestions, I was and it helped the raid a lot.
(btw. I was the one in our guild leading raids when our "true" raid leader couldn't come along.)

Doc309
08-07-2008, 03:25 PM
what ive done in raids i've led, not being absolutely sure on best synergy, is promote to assistant 1 tank, and 1 healer ( at least, sometime a caster too) and tell them to make groups 1,3 and 5.
i will make changes, if i need to ie only 'lock in caster group...
on the flip side of the coin... i can NOT stand being asked to change groupings on each and every pull.

bosephus
08-07-2008, 10:13 PM
Raidguru has a great breakdown over at their website. I use it every now and then for a refresher.

Raidguru Raid Synergy Guide (http://www.raidguru.net/index.php?page=60)

Valley
08-07-2008, 10:29 PM
outside of the 5 man portion of raids there is the 25 man portion.
Typicaly you'll have X tanks Y healers Z dps.

The dps is the part for most flucuation. There are several people who's power comes not from their numbers but from their synergy. Its always decent to have at least 1 in a raid without gimping the rest of your raid. Usually these utility spots are like 4-5 depending on encounter

Shadow priests,
5% spell damage, 10% additional shadow damage, mana/health returned

Dps warrior (33/28)
4% increased physical damage. typically including tanks for more threat as well. You may also be able to convince them to apply demo shout at worst, tclap at best. Battle shout as well.

maladiction warlock
Typically warlocks use the demonic sac build destruction. (even when they don't have the gear for it /eyeroll) These guys get double duty since usualy they can have their imp for tanks as well as maladiction to increase spell damage.

RET paladin
If you have 3 or more paladins being able to constanly support heal/mana/crit on one guy is an amazing benifit. in addition to 2% increased damage in your heavy hitting physical dps group.

Surv Hunter
Increase ap of the raid by 25% of their agility (note less than 800 agility makes this spec more of a hinderence than a help typically)

Boomkin
5% spell crit. meh also improved faerie fire. increases chance to hit which helps compensate for certain gearing. (resist gear etc) Insect swarm reduces chance to be hit 2%

ELE shaman
totems, lust. meh

The last 3 really depend on your raid makup. are you more heavily melee or ranged. what does the fight call for.

Then it comes to putting together the 5man portions of your raid. Tanks get huge benifits from alot of things that you wouldn't normally think. Beyond tree of life and imp. Leader of the pack/ret aura get you alot of bonus threat. Perhaps the largest benifit comes from a enh shaman. If they are capable of twisting goa and windfury even better. In addition for hard threat capped encounters having your tank get bloodlusted off the bat is a huge threat jump. Especially since the only one he'll really be fighting is the other people in his group. For as good a benifit as these things may be you'll have to weigh which benifits the raid more. However if you are in the situation where you typically bring a second ret pally, enh shaman. Or perhaps want to switch your feral druid up. there is alot of benifit to the tank for him.

Andenthal
08-08-2008, 02:58 PM
Shadow priests,
5% spell damage, 10% additional shadow damage, mana/health returned

Dps warrior (33/28)
4% increased physical damage. typically including tanks for more threat as well. You may also be able to convince them to apply demo shout at worst, tclap at best. Battle shout as well.

maladiction warlock
Typically warlocks use the demonic sac build destruction. (even when they don't have the gear for it /eyeroll) These guys get double duty since usualy they can have their imp for tanks as well as maladiction to increase spell damage.

RET paladin
If you have 3 or more paladins being able to constanly support heal/mana/crit on one guy is an amazing benifit. in addition to 2% increased damage in your heavy hitting physical dps group.

Surv Hunter
Increase ap of the raid by 25% of their agility (note less than 800 agility makes this spec more of a hinderence than a help typically)

Boomkin
5% spell crit. meh also improved faerie fire. increases chance to hit which helps compensate for certain gearing. (resist gear etc) Insect swarm reduces chance to be hit 2%

ELE shaman
totems, lust. meh



With the exception of the Boomkin, Ret Pally and Shaman - none of those specs and examples are group dependant. The Arms Warrior will increase physical damage done by 4% even if he is in a group with 4 healers. Same with Shadow Priests and Survival Hunters. He is asking about specific group make-ups that mix/max the abilities of your group. Like Elemental Shaman in a group with 4 other casters. Feral Druid, DPS Warrior, and Enhancement Shaman in the group with your tank(s).

You are more talking about the viability of a class or spec as a whole, which is a slightly different topic.

Andenthal
08-08-2008, 03:49 PM
Raidguru has a great breakdown over at their website. I use it every now and then for a refresher.

Raidguru Raid Synergy Guide (http://www.raidguru.net/index.php?page=60)

Also just took a look at this guide. Going to have to be pretty rough on it... :p Take it with a huge grain of salt. A lot of it is opinion, rather than straight fact. Also imcomplete in some areas. Overall, I'd have to say that this was written by a single person, rather than a group of people. Some classes are marginally well explained(Pallies, Priests), others terribley explained(Shaman, Warrior).

Some of the buffs are inconsistant. It says that Arcane Brilliance is 1 hour in duration, but Fortitude is only 30 minutes??? Repeats some talents, but in the incorrect trees (why is Blessing of Kings in the Holy section? Just because many Holy Pallies get it, does not make it a Holy talent....). FYI - Rogues do have a couple minimal debuffs (Wound Poison, Cripple Poison, Mind Numbing Poison)

Missing a lot of Raid 101 type stuff. Soulstones, Healthstones, Divine Intervention, Rebirth (Battle Rez)??? (Although slight mention of Improved Healthstones, but poorly mentions WHY Warlocks should spec differently). Are those no longer considered utility spells??

And lastly (since this is Tankspot :) )
The Warrior section is laughable. Apparently we are good for Shouts and Blood Frenzy only. No mention of MS. Devastate is not a raid buff - Sunder Armor is. No mention of Demo Shout (or the Demo Roar now that I look at it...). Also missing Thunderclap.

bosephus
08-14-2008, 09:14 AM
Haha...I never looked at the warrior section of that RaidGuru site. I just looked at it to learn what the heck a boomkin does.