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ebs2002
08-06-2008, 09:23 AM
As an arms or fury DPS warrior, you need to strike a balance of many stats: Strength/AttackPower, Crit chance, Armor Penetration, Hit, Haste, and Expertise.

Wait..expertise?!?

Yes, Expertise, too. It was often overlooked for DPS warriors, because it was only found on tanking gear. However, we're seeing more items attractive to DPS classes with expertise rating on it, and so it makes sense that we should consider the amount of expertise on an item. But how important is it? Does it take the place of any of these other stats?

What You Need
As a DPS warrior, you should have the Weapon Mastery talent, that reduces your target's chance to dodge by 2%. Boss mobs have a 6.5% chance to dodge, and a base 9% chance for special attacks to be missed. If you are dual-wielding, white attacks have a 28% miss chance, but if you are using a 2-hander, white attacks only have a 9% miss chance.

Some more numbers before we continue:
3.94 expertise rating = 0.25% dodge reduction; 15.76 expertise rating = 1% dodge reduction.
15.76 hit rating = 1% miss reduction.

How do I value hit and expertise?

You've probably read elsewhere that your first goal as a DPS warrior is to get your hit rating to a magic number: 142 for arms warriors, and 95 for fury warriors. This is correct, getting there should be a priority, but not necessarily at the expense of your expertise rating.

Consider the following arms warrior trying to decide on his last trinket. Without it equipped, he has:
100 hit rating and 5 expertise (he's a human wielding a sword). He has no other expertise rating gear on, and he has the Weapon Mastery talent to reduce the bosses base dodge chance to 4.5%.

100 hit rating = 6.35% hit chance, and 5 expertise = 1.25% dodge reduction.

This means that his opponent still has a 2.65% chance to be missed, and a 3.25% chance to dodge: (9-6.35=2.65; 4.5-1.25=3.25).

In other words, each attack he makes, the boss will avoid it 7.9% of the time.

Now consider his two trinket options: Romulo's Poison Vial and Shard of Contempt.

If he equips the vial, he will gain 35 hit rating, increasing his hit rating to 135. The miss-reduction becomes 8.57% (still below the cap), and the bosses chance to be missed becomes 0.43%. The bosses dodge chance remains the same, 3.25%. Total chance to be missed: 3.68%

If he equips the shard, he gains 44 expertise rating, which translates to 11.16 expertise. Expertise rounds down, so this is 11 expertise. His new expertise is 16, which is a 4% chance-to-dodge reduction, and the bosses chance to dodge becomes 0.5%. The bosses chance to miss remains the same, 2.65%. Total chance to be missed: 3.15%

The warrior should choose the shard, even though his hit isn't capped, because the chance for the boss to dodge+miss is lower with the shard.

Conclusion
If you are not expertise-capped or hit-capped, but you have a Shard of Contempt, then EQUIP IT. There is no better trinket to increase your chance to hit the boss. It doesn't have hit rating, but it doesn't matter. If your hit rating is 142 but your expertise is 0, then you 4.5% of your attacks will still miss due to dodge. Because the reduction is equal (15.77 expertise = 15.77 hit = 1% reduction), 100 hit rating + 42 expertise = 142 hit rating + 0 expertise.

tl;dr: Focusing on hit and ignoring expertise is gimping your DPS. Don't gimp yourself by equipping bad hit-rating trinkets and bagging a good expertise-rating trinket. Yes, it's optimal to be expertise-capped AND hit-capped. But until you can get there, it's okay to drop your hit rating below 142 (or 95 if you're fury), if you are swapping in more expertise.

mero12513
08-06-2008, 09:40 AM
A great explanation, thanks ebs.

Here are some questions I have though:

1. Expertise, iirc, reduces both dodges and parries. Should this be considered an additional advantage of expertise that you didn't take into account?
2. A boss cannot dodge or parry an attack if you are behind him, but you can still miss. How often should you be behind a boss, or more appropriately, how often should you not be? Should this also affect the priority of these stats (this time in favor of hit)?

Overall, though, a great intro. Thanks.

ebs2002
08-06-2008, 09:48 AM
1. Expertise, iirc, reduces both dodges and parries. Should this be considered an additional advantage of expertise that you didn't take into account?
To answer this question, see the answer to question #2 :)


2. A boss cannot dodge or parry an attack if you are behind him, but you can still miss. How often should you be behind a boss, or more appropriately, how often should you not be? Should this also affect the priority of these stats (this time in favor of hit)?
This is incorrect. A boss cannot parry an attack if you are behind him, but he can still dodge. Therefore, I was only factoring in the dodge reduction in the math. You should always be behind the boss, unless extenuating circumstances keep you from doing this (like late on prince when infernals limit where you can stand, for instance).

mero12513
08-06-2008, 09:54 AM
Ah-ha. I see. Thanks for the clarification.

loquatious
08-06-2008, 09:55 AM
And of course the proc on shard blows the proc on Vial out of the water

Rishkkin
08-06-2008, 11:04 AM
Wow thanks for that post.

Sticky ?

Kazeyonoma
08-06-2008, 11:18 AM
Stickied.

Leeroi
08-12-2008, 03:56 PM
You should always be behind the boss, unless extenuating circumstances keep you from doing this (like late on prince when infernals limit where you can stand, for instance).

Behind a Boss you avoid cone & frontal attacks like Cleave. But, you say, I want some damage to give me rage so I can do more DPS so staying in front w/ the tank is a good thing. While not being one of the geniuses that reside on this website, I believe the number one reason for all melee to be behind the Boss (ignoring specific situations where it is necessary) is the issue of Boss Parries.

If the Boss parries your attack, he gets a hasted attack on the tank. Ditto for everyone else he parries - the tank eats them all and the DPSers have nary a clue anything is going wrong until the tank goes "splat" (and then of course its the healers' fault!). Somewhere on this site is a discussion where a tank shows his combat log on Prince that has some insane number of parry-hasted attacks, and the tank dies. Granted, a few of those parries were from the tank himself, but basically the melee DPS assisted Prince in killing their tank faster than their healers could heal said tank. If the haste amount is 50% faster swing, then the melee DPS essentially put a +50% damage Buff on Prince, or the equivalent of each and every attack being a crushing blow. That may not be truly precise - it looked like Prince had more parries than he had attacks, so I don't know what happened to all the "extra" parries. But the tank died nonetheless and the combat log showed more damage being done than a battery of healers could have healed.

I've seen disagreement on just how much speed increase comes from the haste after a parry, so the 50% number is likely to be wrong (it is the highest guess I've seen).

As an aside - my understanding is that you can be behind the boss, but if too close you are STILL inside the Boss' hit box, and can therefore be parried. I have read on reports of a rogue being able to do Backstab, etc. (abilities that require being "from behind") and still getting parried. There was a suggestion that this was due to lag (i.e. client software says "yep, he's behind" while server software says - looking at a different point in time - "no, he's in front") but the suspicion seems to be that the hit box extends a little bit around the Boss in all directions. Now I make sure melee stays at max distance as well as behind when I am tanking, and I do the same as OT. I have been surprised to find out just how far away I can get on some Bosses and still be in melee range....

Inaara
08-12-2008, 04:09 PM
Behind a Boss you avoid cone & frontal attacks like Cleave. But, you say, I want some damage to give me rage so I can do more DPS so staying in front w/ the tank is a good thing. While not being one of the geniuses that reside on this website, I believe the number one reason for all melee to be behind the Boss (ignoring specific situations where it is necessary) is the issue of Boss Parries.

If the Boss parries your attack, he gets a hasted attack on the tank. Ditto for everyone else he parries - the tank eats them all and the DPSers have nary a clue anything is going wrong until the tank goes "splat" (and then of course its the healers' fault!). Somewhere on this site is a discussion where a tank shows his combat log on Prince that has some insane number of parry-hasted attacks, and the tank dies. Granted, a few of those parries were from the tank himself, but basically the melee DPS assisted Prince in killing their tank faster than their healers could heal said tank. If the haste amount is 50% faster swing, then the melee DPS essentially put a +50% damage Buff on Prince, or the equivalent of each and every attack being a crushing blow. That may not be truly precise - it looked like Prince had more parries than he had attacks, so I don't know what happened to all the "extra" parries. But the tank died nonetheless and the combat log showed more damage being done than a battery of healers could have healed.

I've seen disagreement on just how much speed increase comes from the haste after a parry, so the 50% number is likely to be wrong (it is the highest guess I've seen).

As an aside - my understanding is that you can be behind the boss, but if too close you are STILL inside the Boss' hit box, and can therefore be parried. I have read on reports of a rogue being able to do Backstab, etc. (abilities that require being "from behind") and still getting parried. There was a suggestion that this was due to lag (i.e. client software says "yep, he's behind" while server software says - looking at a different point in time - "no, he's in front") but the suspicion seems to be that the hit box extends a little bit around the Boss in all directions. Now I make sure melee stays at max distance as well as behind when I am tanking, and I do the same as OT. I have been surprised to find out just how far away I can get on some Bosses and still be in melee range....

It is never optimal to stand in front of a boss while DPSing. Being cleaved for extra rage is an aweful argument for generating more rage. If you're standing in front of a boss you will be parried. Any extra rage you recieve from the cleave (If you don't die of course) won't matter because your attacks will be parried.

The fact that your parries will increase most bosses swing times is undoubtedly the most important reason to be behind the boss for your tanks survival. But for the sake of your DPS you should stand behind.

ebs2002
08-13-2008, 04:17 PM
Agreed. If you need more rage, stand in the fire for a second :p Don't attack from the front, ever, unless you really have no other choice.

Meeks
08-22-2008, 05:48 AM
Completely ignoring the effect that the parrys will have on your tank and the effect of taking more damage on the healers mana...you will probably be doing less damage by sittig in front of a boss.

5% of your attacks will be avoided that would of landed had you been behind. You will loose a lot of damage from parried attacks and some rage from missed white attacks.

Majiben
09-20-2008, 11:39 PM
Meeks speaks the truth about attacking from the from the front reducing the number of attacks that strike the boss. It varies from boss to boss but a boss's parry chance can be 5-10% higher than a boss's dodge chance. Even if you are at the expertise "cap" (expertise still works past the cap by reducing parry but do to dodge not going any lower the effect is cut in half) you will still be missing a lot more than if you had stayed behind.

Licil
10-11-2008, 01:39 PM
The warrior should choose the shard (over the lol Poison Vial), even though his hit isn't capped, because the chance for the boss to dodge+miss is lower with the shard.So would this mean that with Titan's Grip, all we need to do to reach 21% is to put on some expertise items and maybe a little extra hit?

Tatt
10-11-2008, 03:48 PM
Theoretically yes, but what gear do fury warrior's use with expertise on it? Shard of Contempt.....and.....ugh.....some belt from ssc that sort of sucks compared to red belt of battle but has expertise on it......and.....you get the idea. Unless itemization changes or we start gemming for expertise this conversation becomes sort of null and void.

Licil
10-11-2008, 05:03 PM
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/images/news/2008/october/dreadnaught_battlegear25.jpg
Check out those sexy legs.

I'm pretty sure Titan's Grip will be weak until we get some gear at level 80.

shiz98
10-11-2008, 10:20 PM
So would this mean that with Titan's Grip, all we need to do to reach 21% is to put on some expertise items and maybe a little extra hit?
Nope. The hit cap and expertise cap are entirely separate things - while expertise rating and hit rating have a very similar effect, they are still separate stats. In the case of TG, you're looking at a max of 21% hit, in addition to the 6.5% expertise. 'Course, I'd go so far as to say that if you're stacking 21% hit with TG, you're doing it wrong. That's another topic entirely though :)

Krenian
10-12-2008, 07:29 AM
Nope. The hit cap and expertise cap are entirely separate things - while expertise rating and hit rating have a very similar effect, they are still separate stats. In the case of TG, you're looking at a max of 21% hit, in addition to the 6.5% expertise. 'Course, I'd go so far as to say that if you're stacking 21% hit with TG, you're doing it wrong. That's another topic entirely though :)

And you'd have me to support you in your thoughts about stacking pure hit. Because it goes against a warrior's nature in DPSing.

Let me put this clearly though: Hit is, by far, the greatest stat increase until it gets capped for your DPS. However, due to the mechanics of the Warrior class, specifically critting for flurry to proc, ignoring crit is going to make your dps go down no matter what. It's nice that you have the rage but really, at one point you're overstarved anyway and you can't dump it enough. Therefore you may as well sacrafice a bit to get that flurry upkeep up.


Anyway, the point of the thread is expertise, and sure enough, I'll agree with the OP. Expertise is a great stat to get rid of those nasty dodges while you're fighting behind. Good post!

Tatt
10-13-2008, 06:56 AM
The gear you posted is a prime example of my problem with TG....only 2 of those pieces have hit rating on them. Without gemming for hit, and a large amount of it apparently, we will not only not cap specials, we will be no where close.