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Chosenx
08-06-2008, 08:27 AM
Hey everyone. Just wanted to ask a few quick questions from the experts, cos you will know better than I do lol.

My guild just ran kara and we had a tank from a different group (we have 2-3 kara groups running at once) join our group. The run went alright, we got everything down but nightbane (seemed to be a healer prob there).

I had a lot of problems running into his threat however (which as fury u expect, but with salv on it was still very prevelant). So I ran a tps parse of his wws to see what he was putting out, and it is only around 400 for the whole raid and for some individual fights.

That stunned me, as he has almost 16k unbuffed hp, good avoidance and all his gear is way better than mine (about 14.4k unbuffed in tank gear) but I put out at least 800 tps when I run a parse of myself.

I also remember hearing a podcast where ciderhelm (i think) said if you are doing less than 800 tps you are having problems (or maybe it was 600). Either way he is below it.

I noticed he is not using heroic strike at all by the looks of it, and perhaps that is the reason? I can't be sure. But here is the wws let me know if you can find out what is going wrong. Tank in question's name is Oakshlara.

Wow Web Stats (http://wowwebstats.com/arkim4itizedy)

His spec also needs changing, I told him what it should be but I am not sure if he changed it for this raid or not.

So any advice as to how he can increase his tps or whatever that I can pass on. Is it just because of the spec and the non use of heroic strike? Thanks for any help you can give!

Also on the first and second nightbane fights he died really suddenly, which seemed weird as we had 3 healers and we have done it before with 2. So any advice as to what the heck happened with nb if you can give it as well.

hbombs
08-06-2008, 08:44 AM
Sounds like he is broken beyond repair.. We had a tank like this no matter how much I worked with him he never really improved. It eventually led him to leave the guild because no one would run anything with him.

400 TPS on a boss in kara is down right horrible. Its almost hard to do that little tps.

How well do you know this guy? are you friendly? because you need to be honest with him. Show him a parse of himself and then show him one of yours. Once he sees the evidence then you guys can discuss rotations together and try and clean up his tanking a bit.

Chosenx
08-06-2008, 08:48 AM
Yeah thats what I was thinking. I just can't figure out what he is doing wrong.

We get along pretty well in game, and he outgears my tanking gear now as well. I figured he must be alright to get to that level of gear - he has obviously be tanking kara, gruuls mags and some ZA to get where he is. Perhaps everyone has just been having to hold back a lot with him?

Still would like to see if anyone can figure out HOW he can improve and what is going wrong, because I get a bit lost trying to figure out where to go from the wws reads. Also note that he may have been dpsing or off-tanking in some situations during the raid.

Shortypop
08-06-2008, 08:49 AM
From a very quick look, his spec is horrid - imp disarm, imp shield wall, imp revenge, imp taunt, imp def stance and TM are all questionable.

The main problem looks like he's just not using enough of his gcd's, he should be hitting a special (rev, dev,ss) every gcd, which would put his white attacks much further down the charts. His gear is good, but stacking some hit and expertise would help him (and you) a lot. He might be rage starved (?) but swopping in more threat gear would help a lot.

Chosenx
08-06-2008, 08:55 AM
Yeah I did go over with him earlier before the raid when we were just chatting about his spec, and pointed out how all of those skills really aren't needed.

I asked him how often he used taunt, and he said all the time. I barely ever use it when I tank as I dont need to, so I was a curious as to why. I asked if he used it every 8 seconds or not and he said that he pretty much did. He also said he uses it to grab threat of other people to build his higher.

Now I know that in 5-man pugs and some raid pugs it can come in handy I guess if you have a really bad raid group, but surely no one uses taunt that much. I think I convinced him he could get away with a 10 second cooldown, but I don't think he has changed his spec yet.

He needs cruelty, deflection, improved tc etc. all the general tank talents that are picked up. Also he got crushed bad by nb in kara and I suggested using shield block more but he said he hits it every time so I am guessing at least that bit of the rotation is right lol.

Keep the advice coming please, really want this guy to get his rotation right.

Khayra
08-06-2008, 09:06 AM
I think you have to start with the basics with this guy.
His definitely needs too respec, and he needs a proper rotation.
Looking at the parse of the prince fight, he didn't use HS at all, didn't use SS on cooldown and used Revenge only 16 times (of wich he missed 7...).

Maybe you should advice him to read guides like Cider's http://www.tankspot.com/forums/tankspot-library/36210-basics-70-warrior.html, he really needs to learn about the basic tanking stuff.

Chosenx
08-06-2008, 09:07 AM
Yeah i will have to do that - I guess It is hard for me to think some people never see these guides, or never check the forums etc. as it is always the first thing I do lol.

Any more advice would still be great, thanks for the posts so far.

TomBrokeOff
08-06-2008, 11:42 AM
well, Im here to tell you some truth about this situation...

#1 It is NOT spec. (though his spec is not well thought out, and frankly not good because of it.)

#2 it is NOT rotation. looking at the entire fight tanks can put out 800TPS with MUCH further off ratio's. from the standard 2:1:1.

#3 it is NOT the lack of heroic strikes. In his gear, hes honestly rage starved in kara....

and do you know why he's rage starved... plain and simple...

NO HIT RATING, AND NO EXPERTISE...

i mean to the extent of horrible.....look at those miss rates people.
that WWS report led me to armory him, for a 30 hit rating....WOW

that is why his tps is bad...ONLY that....

and hes rage starved because of it...


got get a nightstrike., and autoblocker, a shard of contempt, and a girldle of the fearless....and watch that TPS...TRIPLE even with that aboniable spec, and you'll have all the rage you need to maybe throw a heroic strike.

Shortypop
08-07-2008, 12:39 AM
I'd have to disagree somewhat, yes hit and expertise will help, but tbh most of our rage comes from being hit, not from actually hitting. I did Kara with no expertise (it wasn't implemented) and 12 hit throughout. Yes, I wasn't in 2.4 (?) badges gear which is generally high on dodge and armour (although having re-armoried him his dodge isnt that high really), so I'm sure I took more damage, but am sure on fights like prince he should have had enough rage for some heroic strikes. And keeping up just devastate spam (which he's not if you divide fight times by gcds) doesnt require much rage at all really.

I think it's a combination of things: spec, rotation/skill usage, expertise&hit, as well as just using gcd's more effectively. Is the warrior his main? I know that changing from a "longer-skill usage" class to a spamming prot warrior can take some adjustments.

PS. For the first nightbane he wasn't tanking or at least I hope he wasnt with whirlwind :) and he appears to have BoSalv on him for the second? Also 7 misd's for an entire run of Kara is either seriously low.

PPS. Looking at his reputation he doesn't seem to have run many (if any) heroics, if you've got an alt and he's keen, take him into a heroic and see how he does after some advice, practice makes perfect and heroics are a good training ground.

Chosenx
08-07-2008, 12:55 AM
Yeah for some of the NB fights he wasnt the MT, we got the druid to do it for some as well. Although on the first and second I am pretty sure he was the tank - perhaps he used whirlwind for the skellies. Who knows lol.

I've convinced him to fix his spec. I don't think that expertise and hit have a huge affect on the tps. I've tanked in fairly low hit (like 20 something in kara) and still put out 800+ tps, it is just annoying cos you can miss a fair bit.

The hunter was fairly new too, so perhaps thats why there was less misdirects.

BoSalv I can only think he wasnt MTing for that attempt. Otherwise thats ridiculous.

I think rotation is probably the biggest thing, which I have tried to explain to him and will continue to do tonight in ZA. will post a wws of that here too if I remember to record it!

jlafleur
08-07-2008, 07:43 AM
Yes, his rotation is the biggest problem. He spamming devastate too much with too few shield slams and revenges. I find it hard to believe he doesn't have enough rage for even one heroic strike on the prince. It doesn't sound like he knows exactly how to generate threat properly. Couple that with lack of hit and expertise and bad talent choices and you have a bad tank in decent gear.

Satrina
08-07-2008, 09:08 AM
Amazingly, we tanked Kara just fine before expertise. Find a new strawman.

TomBrokeOff
08-07-2008, 02:19 PM
Amazingly, we tanked Kara just fine before expertise. Find a new strawman.


AND YOU TANKED IT IN BLUES AND GREENS.

not in 2.4 badge gear....

you, got hit ALOT more than he did..

so you had more expendable rage...

im simply saying that

Satrina
08-07-2008, 03:15 PM
Did you actually look at the gear in his armoury?

Beyond that:

and do you know why he's rage starved... plain and simple...

NO HIT RATING, AND NO EXPERTISE...

i mean to the extent of horrible.....look at those miss rates people.
that WWS report led me to armory him, for a 30 hit rating....WOW

that is why his tps is bad...ONLY that....


Now you're suddenly talking about him not getting hit. Make up your mind?

Loon
08-07-2008, 04:38 PM
His rotation seem to be the problem, with that gear he should be able to do 700-800 tps without breaking a arm.


AND YOU TANKED IT IN BLUES AND GREENS.

not in 2.4 badge gear....

you, got hit ALOT more than he did..

so you had more expendable rage...



rage isent really any good if you cant hit the mob/boss to produce threat, so that's why hit/expertise makes it easier nowadays for tanks. :eek:
and 21% dodge and 16% parry dont mean you wont get hit in kara, hell.. i even get hit with 26% dodge and 21% parry in kara.

madocks
08-07-2008, 04:54 PM
Oakshlara produced 421 tps (http://rehfeld.us/wow/wws-tps/report-35561)

His TPS is an average TPS of 421.

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Your wws shows a hunter, in his dmg contents I see no Missdirect there.

Also your MT had salvation - im looking at the fight where he took 251,108 of damage from nightbane. (Wed 06 August at 23:22, 5'50'') - this also shows that none of the DPS have salvation. So the MT is 30% behind and the DPS are at normal TPS

So your tank had 30% reduction, lets add on 30% to his 421 threat and he gets up to around 700tps. Add in the MD and this increases slighty.

Ive also noticed you had 2 x enhancement shaman in the group - yet the MT's buff and weapon strikes dont show any WF or STR totems. The shamans melee shows WF attacks, i assume they buffed their weapons with WF and didnt do a totem?

Im new to wws reports, so maybe im wrong :)

Satrina
08-07-2008, 05:00 PM
That's why I asked if they'd even looked at the guy's gear. He doesn't have particularly more dodge/parry than I did back in the day so he's getting hit plenty.

Bottom line is, the guy needs to suck it up and read Xav's post.

Kazeyonoma
08-07-2008, 05:01 PM
yeh, it's the fact that his rotation is all off, not enough SS, not enough revenge, no heroic strikes. It can't be that he has no rage, he's taking 300k damage on prince.

5minute 03 second fight.
That's 202 GCD's.
As a tank he's probably not ever not there, except for a few possible repositions.

Starting from the first GCD, every GCD should be a shield Slam. That means 51 Shield Slams, 51 revenges, and 100 Devastates, With around 189 swings. He could AT LEAST be heroic striking half the time so he shoudl be throwing up 94 heroic strikes.

What does the WWS Show?
216 white swings
80 devastates
26 shield slams
16 revenges
11 thunderclaps
33 shield blocks (O_o, that means he may have eaten a crush here or there but his high avoidance probably means he was nearly uncrushable)

What does this prove? His rotation is off, his skill usage is way too low, and to have 0 heroic strikes is absolutely failure, adding just heroic strikes will bring his tps up another 200-300.

To claim that it's not his rotation is just off, his rotation is definitely off. Can his gear get some upgrades? Sure, but that's only part of the problem, just tightening his rotation his threat will go up again, even if he didn't miss/get avoided on the same attacks he just did, he'd STILL only generate around 500 tps because he simply isn't using his abilities.

And watch your goddamned attitude. If you wanna scream at players who are trying to help a person who posted a question with real suggestions, then take your shit elsewhere, we welcome every member here with open arms, but we by no means need to tolerate a bad attitude or bullshit.

Kazeyonoma
08-07-2008, 05:03 PM
Oakshlara produced 421 tps (http://rehfeld.us/wow/wws-tps/report-35561)

His TPS is an average TPS of 421.

----------------------------------------------------------

Your wws shows a hunter, in his dmg contents I see no Missdirect there.

Also your MT had salvation - im looking at the fight where he took 251,108 of damage from nightbane. (Wed 06 August at 23:22, 5'50'') - this also shows that none of the DPS have salvation. So the MT is 30% behind and the DPS are at normal TPS

So your tank had 30% reduction, lets add on 30% to his 421 threat and he gets up to around 700tps. Add in the MD and this increases slighty.

Ive also noticed you had 2 x enhancement shaman in the group - yet the MT's buff and weapon strikes dont show any WF or STR totems. The shamans melee shows WF attacks, i assume they buffed their weapons with WF and didnt do a totem?

Im new to wws reports, so maybe im wrong :)

Oakshlara produced 477 tps (http://rehfeld.us/wow/wws-tps/report-34525)

Even on prince when he didn't have salve he only put out 471 tps.

madocks
08-07-2008, 05:04 PM
i agree his rotation is crap, so was his talents - but he had salvation on

Thats his failure and the paladins failure

madocks
08-07-2008, 05:06 PM
Even on prince when he didn't have salve he only put out 471 tps.

He had WF tho, and fear ward :)

Still no MD from hunter on that wws either

jlafleur
08-07-2008, 08:15 PM
That TPS report doesn't include salvation in the calculation so his TPS was 421. (And even if you did have savlation, then 421/.7 = 601 TPS not 700.) With all of the "misses" he has, I'd expect his TPS to be 500-550 or so with heroic strike and a fining tuning of his rotation which so-so not terrible -- he did actually use revenge and shield slam. I'd be really surprised to see him get to 700-800 tps with low hit and expertise and given the gear he currently has. Nightbane isn't a fight that I would examine his TPS on though given the air phase. Prince is probably a better one to examine and he did 477 since its a straight up tank and spank. No matter what his TPS was good enough for his group to one-shot prince.

Chosenx
08-07-2008, 09:24 PM
The TPS was good enough to 1 shot prince but that is only because we have overgeared and experienced dps and healers in the group, and we all had salv on.

If he had salv on for tanking one of the fights, then that is obviously a mistake by the pally (he hasnt played in a while only just getting back into it) and by us that we didn't pick it up.

Yeah the hunter didn't MD a lot (something I will talk to him about) but even without MD's you should be able to do better than what is posted.

From what Kaz posted I can easily see what is wrong with his rotation - a simple lack of correct skill usage. Bringing this up with him may be difficult (i think he is only 16) but I will try do it tactfully as it will help the whole group.

And Madocks as far as I am aware the tank group had myself and the shammy dropping wf in there, and wf was down for almost all of the fights. The only time it wasn't used was for the NB fights.

I did get him to change his spec, so at least that looks a lot better now. Now to teach him the correct rotation to use - any good ideas on how to bring this up?

Shortypop
08-08-2008, 12:49 AM
I'd probably start with chatting to him about "fighting" the global cooldown. He wants to get his revenge/ss/dev usage up so every gcd is being spent. Perhaps, if the healers can cope, get him to drop commanding/battle shout, demo shout, thunderclap, and get him to just watch the gcd for ss,rev,dev. Make sure he's got some sort of cd monitor, even if just a "clock-hands" over his skills. To a large extent he can fine tune his rotation later: SS when available if not devastate/revenge is probably good enough to start with. Apply it to bosses where he doesnt have to move: Curator, Maiden, Prince (if you just heal through melee infernals).

He might also need explaining about how important it is for dps to be able to have some space to play with in terms of agro, he may think cos none of the dps overtake him on omen that he's doing fine. He, himself might not see an improvement, but watch Omen and if it looks better, make sure one or two (dont overdo it) of the dps whisper him to say "that was great I could do so much more dps, dont know what you were doing but do it next time too" -- encouragement is an incredible motivator.