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Alstott
08-04-2008, 12:06 PM
Hey all,

So I'm a pvper that's started doing some ZA runs, mainly to get my hands on zerker's call and some tanking pieces. Anyway, right now I've got s4 mace and some of the s4 pieces (hat, gloves), with the rest all s3. I know pvp gear isn't ideal for pve, but it's what I've got to work with. Anyway, I'm gonna pick up the badge pve pieces, but I'd like to know what order will provide the best upgrades for arms dps. Keep in mind the s4 pieces have a decent amount of hit now, which I'm otherwise lacking. Also, would red belt of battle be better than the badge belt (for hit)? There is a chance I'll be doing T6+ content in the future, but right now it's not serious (pvp still main focus).

ebs2002
08-04-2008, 01:00 PM
Red Belt of Battle is better than the badge belt, hands down (plus, it doesn't use badges).

Your best badge purchase is the 2.4 ring by a long shot, and then maybe the shoulders to get your hit up.

S3/S4 Hat/Chest/Legs are better than any PvE gear you'll see pre-T6 because of the loads of str/crit/hit/arp on them. I'd just focus on getting your hit to 142 with GOOD items (ie, with 3 DPS stats on them, not just two). With S3/S4 full set, you should be looking at 51 hit rating. +surefooted, 61. RBOB adds 14, putting you at 75 hit.

From there, you just need to find 67 more hit rating. The badge shoulders give 23, Karazhan has a bunch of options (T4 gloves, crossbow from attumen, ring from curator, trinket from Romulo, etc). You could also swap out your str/crit gems for some hit gems, since you've got a healthy amount of crit from S4, but only do that if you absolutely have to.

My advice would be to run Kara a few times to get your hit where it needs to be, and only spend your badges on the 2.3 shoulders and the ring for now. The shoulders are a weak piece, but it's your best badge purchase that has hit on it.

Tatt
08-04-2008, 01:07 PM
Agree with Ebs on everything except legs. There are some nice options in T5 that outperform S3 legs, no ArP but considerably more strength and crit.

ebs2002
08-04-2008, 01:16 PM
Vengeful Gladiator's Plate Legguards
51str, 47crit, 12hit, 84 armor pen

What T5 options are better?

Destroyer Greaves adds 1str + 10str gem and 10hit, at a cost of 13crit and 84armor pen (itemization: 13+11 S3 > 11+10 T5. Equal at best if you need more hit)

Greaves of the Bloodwarder adds 28str at a cost of 16crit 12hit 84arp. 28 itemization pts vs 40 itemization points, S3 wins out by a large margin.

The 100 badge pants are great, except they have a load of haste, which is no good for arms dps.

And if you ever get to S4 legs (not even that difficult, really), they're better than everything you can get except maybe Felfury from Sunwell (but again, it's got loads of haste).

Edit: realized I wasn't looking at leather options, but again, there aren't any leather upgrades in T5 that compete with S3 legs. And the only competition for S4 legs for an arms warrior would be the leather ones from Sunwell

Crimsonstorm
08-04-2008, 01:50 PM
Most of your S3 is superior to any of the badge stuff, and in fact a lot of the S4 arena gear is superior to T6 level stuff, except the top sunwell items.

Get Angelista's Revenge, using it + S4 ring is great.
You have S4 weapon so thats probably the best thing you have access to (though axe or sword would be a lot better).
The badge Crossbow is good if you need hit, but its expensive and not a big upgrade. ZA bow is almost as good.

Alstott
08-04-2008, 02:18 PM
Yeah I'm now saving for s4 sword as well, since I wanna DW them in expansion :P And as for the rest of s4 gear, it's just a matter of points. Getting ~900 a week atm so it shouldn't take too long. I'll look into red belt, and then I guess I'll just use badges to get tank gear. I had angelista's and DE'd it so I'll just wait for the 3rd chest ring from ZA (same stats). Thanks guys!

ebs2002
08-04-2008, 02:31 PM
You could probably make do with the S3 and S4 rings instead of the ZA Badge/Angelista's. It's not quite as good, but probably scores easier for you to get as a big PvPer.

Chances are, though, one of the items you get to up your hit rating will be a ring anyway, so I wouldn't really even sweat it.

Tatt
08-04-2008, 02:32 PM
Ebs - I apologize, looked at the gear from a personal standpoint, my hit is almost annoyingly high at the moment, so I am downsizing hit in favor of strength at the moment, and currently drooling over the idea of bloodwarder's to drop Thursday night. I know they are itemized differently, I just have a hard time losing strength or AP picking up S3 pants over the crappy ones I am wearing from h mech.

ebs2002
08-04-2008, 03:11 PM
Tatt, I understand completely. If that's your frame of reference, then yeah there are things that look more attractive than a loss of stats (even if you're losing 20ap but picking up 20 crit, as an example).

In the OPs case, though, once you have S3 there's no reason to look at T5/Badge gear, since at best you'd get a sidegrade (or in the 100badge leg case, a truckload of haste that you can't use).

Tatt
08-04-2008, 03:12 PM
What about Tsunami Talisman? That would be a nice trinket for an arms warrior and is from T5, correct?

Gorgrim Warcry
08-05-2008, 03:16 AM
For Raiding
Solarions Sapphire/Shard of Contempt

For Other
Berserker's Call/Shard of Contempt

ebs2002
08-05-2008, 08:36 AM
Tsunami Talisman is nice, but if you're raiding as arms you will likely be in the melee group with windfury (it's really the only way that arms dps is viable), and so Solarian's Sapphire is much better for the raid than the talisman or berserker's call. Remember, as an arms warrior, your first job is buffing the melee as much as possible, and your second job is your personal DPS. Solarian's Sapphire trumps the other two by a lot in this respect, and for personal DPS the shard is better than any other trinket pre-sunwell.

Tatt
08-05-2008, 01:19 PM
True Ebs, but if the stat he is having the most trouble filling is hit rating than at least one of his trinkets will probably have to be hit for a while. Would I be correct in assuming that 142 hit would be more important than shard of contempt dps wise?

ebs2002
08-05-2008, 01:51 PM
Let's do the math, because I'm not quite sure myself.

Bosses have 6.5% chance to dodge.
Arms DPS should have Weapon Mastery 2/2, which reduces dodge chance by 2%. You have to make up 4.5% with expertise, or 18 expertise.

Shard of Contempt gives 44 expertise rating, or 11.28expertise, or 2.75% dodge reduction. If you get the +5 expertise racial bonus, that makes it 4% dodge reduction, leaving 0.5% reduction to still make up.

This means that the shard of contempt's passive expertise is not wasted unless you have 7 more expertise rating plus the racial, or 27 more expertise rating without it.

We all know that hit rating=expertise rating when you're just reducing parries, and the same is true when you're just reducing dodge. So, the shard of contempt is giving the equivalent of 44 hit rating.

Conclusion: unless you can get a single trinket with 44+ hit rating (not to mention make up for the passive proc that the shard gives...it doesn't exist), from the perspective of minimizing your misses, the Shard of Contempt is the best trinket to have in that slot.

I'd say that your next best trinket to get your hit up to speed would be Romulo's vial, or the Tsunami Talisman (although I still think that shard+solarian would be better for the raid's overall dps over any other combination, even if your hit isn't capped)

Rishkkin
08-06-2008, 07:05 AM
I'm not sure if I understood correctly, but does that means that if you have the shard you can go lower than 142 hit rating ?

Corbusier
08-06-2008, 08:17 AM
I'm not sure if I understood correctly, but does that means that if you have the shard you can go lower than 142 hit rating ?

Negative.

Gonna have to disagree with ebs on this one. Expertise does not reduce misses, so the two stats cannot be interchanged.

Rishkkin
08-06-2008, 08:21 AM
Thanks for the clarification.

ebs2002
08-06-2008, 08:29 AM
Let me clarify:

If you don't have capped expertise OR capped hit, then you want to get the highest combined expertise rating and hit rating.

You can't go lower than 142 hit rating, but if you're at 5 expertise and 100 hit rating, and you're trying to decide what trinket to equip, the shard gives 44 rating and romulo's vial gives 30 hit rating. Since neither choice will cap your expertise or hit, you look at the raw numbers. The shard is better.

It's a common misconception that hit > expertise, and this is flat-out wrong. You need both, and shouldn't choose a weak hit item over a strong expertise item (like vial vs shard) just because you need hit. You *do* need hit, but you need expertise too

Rishkkin
08-06-2008, 08:31 AM
ha, sound more clearer now !

Rishkkin
08-06-2008, 08:32 AM
in all honesty, who would pass on the shard ?

ebs2002
08-06-2008, 09:24 AM
Someone who thinks they need to get 142 hit rating no matter what, and equips Terokkar Tablet of Precision and Romulo's Poison Vial to get there, as an example.

loquatious
08-06-2008, 09:26 AM
If the mob dodges you do 0 damage
If you miss you do 0 damage

So unless your are capped expertise and hit can be compared and you should simply go with the one that gives you the best chance of connecting with the mob. Shard > Vial :)

ebs2002
08-06-2008, 09:50 AM
Exactly, loquatious, and that's the point I was trying to get across :)

shiz98
08-06-2008, 10:04 AM
The 100 badge pants are great, except they have a load of haste, which is no good for arms dps.
Actually, Haste up to a point is quite good for Arms DPS - increasing weapon speed increases DPS by the same percentage. This only works up to the minimum speed, of course (unless you're going slam-less).

So the badge pants are an option, especially if you've got lots of crit (likely with all your pvp gear). They're definitely better than your other T5 options, but I don't know if they'd be an upgrade over S4.


The badge Crossbow is good if you need hit
Felsteel Whisper Knives are a good alternative as well (basically a "light" version of the badge crossbow) and very easy to come by.

ebs2002
08-06-2008, 10:23 AM
Actually, Haste up to a point is quite good for Arms DPS - increasing weapon speed increases DPS by the same percentage. This only works up to the minimum speed, of course (unless you're going slam-less).

Yeah, I'm aware of this. With flurry, though, it's very easy to get to the point where extra haste is wasted, especially if you're looking at items with 50+ haste rating.