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Dunmail
07-30-2008, 07:14 AM
Had a attempt on him just after joining this guild and it seemed a bit quick.

Went back again on monday after Mother with the aim of downing him, having geared up alot and learned a few more things, such as avoid the log as fat Drens get stuck.

Spent 3.5 hours there last night and started to see some serious progress, as in a number of sub 50% and one 39% one rather that 20s and "run in plx". Did have another good one going but the server punted me & the retri pally off together (sure they were fiddling pre-maintenance). The positioning seemed ok, people were dodging the fire and eventually communicating where they'd escaped to alot better, and the usual stupid wipes, 'oh I clicked too late' ones.

The part that was annoying me was the fears, as I could ward one, trinket the second and the third seemed to be a hope for the best dancing (often catch me half way through it, even adding e-casting bar), or the totem missed it. Then I'd get squirted through a fire. Then it'd get messy, or we'd struggle on a bit then have skittles.

Question one - is there any way of improving stance dancing to smooth this fight out?

I currently use the 3 click one (Be S - BR - De S) but I'm not nailing as many as I'd like, often getting caught in Beserker stance and taking heavier hits. This a case of paying better attention/reacting or am I missing something obvious, as I've never had an issue on NB. I'm presuming it is a reaction/GCD/latency thing (latter is 200+).

Improving that an extra fear or so then obviously moves us from 39% to 20% and then it becomes doable to the easy part. If we can all work on survivability and not smacking the panic buttons as often then we can progress.

The next question is related to our worst attempt which was me running in and going splat. Did nothing different, ran in, fired trinket (fired a IS pot which I wasn't sure of) and died. Logs slowed lots of heals being cast but they never landed. WWS is:-

21:00'33.926 Dunmail gains 1 Rage from Bloodrage
21:00'34.097 Dunmail gains Empyrean Tortoise
21:00'34.832 Dunmail gains 1 Rage from Bloodrage
21:00'34.832 Dunmail gains Ironshield
21:00'35.785 Archimonde's Swing hits Dunmail for 7682 Physical damage
21:00'36.035 Dunmail gains 1 Rage from Bloodrage
21:00'36.113 Dunmail's Earth Shield heals Dunmail for 846
21:00'36.113 Dunmail's Prayer of Mending heals Dunmail for 1883
21:00'36.316 Dunmail's Heroic Strike parried by Archimonde
21:00'36.316 Dunmail's Devastate parried by Archimonde
21:00'36.504 Archimonde's Swing hits Dunmail for 6359 Physical damage (257 blocked)
21:00'36.863 Dunmail gains 1 Rage from Bloodrage
21:00'36.894 Dunmail gains Shield Block
21:00'37.269 Dunmail gains 1 Rage from Shield Specialization
21:00'37.644 Dunmail gains Rejuvenation
21:00'37.676 Dunmail's Shield Slam hits Archimonde for 432 Physical damage
21:00'37.816 Archimonde's Swing hits Dunmail for 6755 Physical damage (257 blocked)
21:00'37.879 Dunmail gains 1 Rage from Bloodrage
21:00'38.082 Dunmail's Heroic Strike hits Archimonde for 287 Physical damage
21:00'38.457 Dunmail is afflicted by Death
21:00'38.488 Dunmail gains 1 Rage from Shield Specialization

From looking at this I took a Dev/HS parry and I presume that ganked me before the heals landed with the hits coming in faster. I thought I had a decent grasp of things but I'm a bit puzzled why I eat all this considering I had the Tortoise active, and had the pot active. I'm also puzzled with the last hit as Shield Block was up .9 of a second previously according to WWS.

Has anyone got any useful feedback on this one, obviously this is a worst case scenario of splat, and at times we had some rotten luck, with flame positions, air bursts and so on but bad luck is something that I see as something to cope with, rather than 'just' relying on good luck to get a kill in.

Cheers.

tehgreen
07-30-2008, 08:26 AM
for not catching fears u have a few options. one good idea is to grab deaden off of wowace, it lets u suppress certain spell casts from your unit frames (pitbull, necb etc) u can add all of archies spell's bar the fear, and just mash ur br macro wen anything in his cast bar lights up. b aware by default it suppresses deaden on ros.

or u can get a shamen, or more priests.

as for getting gibbed on the pull, its happens, its a pain, just reset. tends to happen when u take the first 3 hits with no dodge/parry/miss. chucking tc up as soon as u can helps a fair bit.

Dunmail
07-30-2008, 08:38 AM
Righty ho will have a look at it, getting to the point I'm getting more and more crap on screen, and stuffing 2 extra bars with myopic sized trinket/panic/dance buttons and e-caster mod was a bit silly.

Figured the start was a bit nasty, from the hits I was getting, especially when a lock put CoR on him when trying to be helpful. Just seemed a bit bizarre firing everything, into a normal rotation, getting block up and being dead. Guess I shouldn't be surprised there, the final attempt was being airbursted and getting ganked well before the zenith.

Cheers.

tehgreen
07-30-2008, 08:42 AM
yah when i pull its normally bloodrage -> shield block -> archie hits me -> tc -> ss. threat isn't really an issue.

archie is one boss we don't always put CoR up on depends on how many healers we have floating about that clear.

Xav
07-30-2008, 09:15 AM
257 block value? what are you tanking this in, tier 2?

bludwork
07-30-2008, 10:42 AM
21:00'35.785 Archimonde's Swing hits Dunmail for 7682 Physical damage
21:00'36.113 Dunmail's Earth Shield heals Dunmail for 846
21:00'36.113 Dunmail's Prayer of Mending heals Dunmail for 1883
21:00'36.504 Archimonde's Swing hits Dunmail for 6359 Physical damage (257 blocked)
21:00'37.644 Dunmail gains Rejuvenation
21:00'37.816 Archimonde's Swing hits Dunmail for 6755 Physical damage (257 blocked)
21:00'38.457 Dunmail is afflicted by Death

in those 3 seconds you got healed for 2729
in those 3 seconds you got hit for 20796

if you're only getting 2729 heals in 3seconds your healers failed.

headrush
07-30-2008, 11:41 AM
257 block value? what are you tanking this in, tier 2?

Might be possible to have only this much if he is in avoidance type gear right?

supremus shoulders
tankatronic goggles (esp. with no meta gem with bv)
badge legs
badge belt
2 avoidance rings (badge and tidewalker)
avoidance trink
hyjal shield


not sure if that is the most optimal gear choices for archie. im actually curious what would be the best way to optimize for this fight. I hear more avoidance is warranted.

headrush
07-30-2008, 11:54 AM
not saying all this gear is avoidance. merely stating its possible to have that low of SBV with some exceptional gear that favors avoidance, hit rating and expertise

Xav
07-30-2008, 04:08 PM
With zero buffs and no gear equipped, except for my Kaz'rogal shield, I have 216 block value. Does all of the new wonderful badge gear actually have 0 block value? I haven't really looked. The chestpiece alone from badges would put you at ~270 block value. Was that all you had, perhaps, and the rest of your gear had none? I'm just really curious.

Anyway, the answer you're looking for is: Healers should have pressed heal.

Dragaan
07-30-2008, 11:02 PM
I'm gonna have to be honest dude... If you are getting feared while tanking archimonde as a warrior, that is going to really mess up your guild's attempts. You CANNOT and SHOULD not get feared. Ever. I don't use any macros for stance-dancing, and I manually click the stance buttons and zerker rage to do it. I never missed even on my first tries. It is something that you have to work on and you shouldn't have to rely on anything to make it easier for you. If there's one thing a guild who's learning archimonde does not need, it's a tank getting feared. It is your responsibility to get that down asap.

Dragaan
07-30-2008, 11:07 PM
257 block value? what are you tanking this in, tier 2?

I'm guessing he doesn't have 3/3 shield mastery? If not, you really should grab it. Good for mitigation, great for threat. Also get 2/5 imp demo if you don't have that for archi.

BoomBeef
07-31-2008, 09:27 AM
I'm gonna have to be honest dude... If you are getting feared while tanking archimonde as a warrior, that is going to really mess up your guild's attempts. You CANNOT and SHOULD not get feared. Ever. I don't use any macros for stance-dancing, and I manually click the stance buttons and zerker rage to do it. I never missed even on my first tries. It is something that you have to work on and you shouldn't have to rely on anything to make it easier for you. If there's one thing a guild who's learning archimonde does not need, it's a tank getting feared. It is your responsibility to get that down asap.

That!
You are a warrior tank. You are not a druid or a pally tank. Your strength is being able to handle fear. Do not be a lazy tank. FFS Fear dance. Yeah we do not see many dragons in BC so people never learned to Fear dance or maybe Fear Ward is a crutch. (I miss the world dragons, Ony and Nef)

Anyways, I tell my priests they better be using Fear wards on themselves to keep heals up on me. I'll dance. Give everyone else the totem and crap. Maybe even melee can use the totem. Get Shadow Priests to FW other healers that don't have totems etc.

Use intelligent placement of buttons as you change stances (please use keybinds) or macro it if you have to. I'll go easier on you and highlight this easy mode macro from the macro forum sticky.

Fear Dance - think Nightbane, Onyxia... will put you into zerker stance, pop zerker rage and then (back) to def stance if you have a shield on or to battle if not

#show Berserker Rage
/cast [stance:3] Berserker Rage; Berserker Stance
/cast [noequipped:shields] Battle Stance; Defensive Stance

Mash that button 3 times. You can do it with even 250ish latency and beat the Fear cast bar. I take the duty of calling out "5 seconds to Fear Cooldown" so people know to get ~20 yard or more from fires if they are near one or they get ready to use Fear trinket or Pally bubble if they have it. Also prepares me to focus on looking for that "Fear" cast bar. Never ever get feared! Say it with me: You are a warrior. You will never ever get feared!

Hint: For fear dance practice, hit up the four dragons in Ogri'la area and stance dance when the bellowing roar happens, shakes the ground etc. May need a 3 man group. Never ever get feared!

If you have Locks putting up CoR. You better get your DPS warrior or warrior OT to pickup 5/5 Imp. DS while you keep imp TC on Archi.

Dragaan
07-31-2008, 10:26 AM
holy crap, I just saw the part where you said you trinket out of the 2nd fear... For god's sake, if you are having trouble surviving on Archimonde use real tanking trinkets! The only other advice I can give you for the fears is this... When you see 5 seconds until his fear cooldown is up, get ready with your finger/mouse/whatever over your zerker stance button/hotkey/macro. At that point just stare at his castbar. Wait for it. Don't focus on anything else like threat. If you notice the DPS riding you close on threat, tell them to hold off until the fear. When you see his castbar pop up, take a split second to make sure it's actually a fear and not a air burst and dance instantly if it's a fear. You shouldn't be trying to avoid doomfires or anything else while waiting for the fear (at least while you are learning it). That is your #1 priority.

Dunmail
08-01-2008, 08:32 AM
Yeah... That's the macro I do use. I think increasing Spell Detail for council (went to Archie instead) may have been making things a bit laggier than usual. Hyjal ran like an asthmatic ( & 20 fps lower) until I knocked it back down a couple.

Problem I had was when the cast bar did flash up it was already halfway through the cast, which made the timing on part 2 of the macro a bit tight with the GCD off part 1. Aggro isn't an issue and I didn't especially like adding more shit on screen. I was using the trinket as it made sense at the time with reliability. Dancing when the cooldown died on Bigwigs, or a couple of secs before hand proved very unreliable, as his timing when he fired it, when he had it available varied.

I don't have an issue with Nightbane & the macro for:-
Bellowing Roar – Typical dragon fear with a 2.5-second cast time, short duration, and 30-second cooldown.
Wiki states Archi as;-
Fear: 8 sec AoE fear (entire raid), 40 sec cooldown, 1.5 sec cast time. Never used while players are still airborne from Air Burst.

Assuming latency is back to normal I'll have a think about how to speed up the macro time. Not sure whether to bind it (kinda use to current key usage), or swap it onto mouse 5. Should be easy enough to test, use to click it but obviously not ideal, especially from comments.

The CoR has been rectified, especially with our dps warrior being melee officer.

The BV is easy, the gear doesn't have it.
Goggles none (bar meta), can use T4 with Meta, individual swap isn't massive.
Neck none unless I use some old blue stuff (rather have the stam/expertise)
Shoulders none, other option is old H-Sett Hall ones. (no luck with T4)
Cloak have badge one but rather use Slikk/Pepe
Chest fair bit on 100 badge one (none on 75, some on panzar but lower avoidance)
Bracers none.
Legs - badge/Praetorians - none
T6 gloves some (don't think bonefist had, other option is T4)
Belt none (threat/avoidance), not seen BB'd drop so far.
Boots - bit of weak spot, none on, and best upgrade is Akama. ZA been stingy and 10 mans with guild are pretty rare, and I'm not pugging there again.
Shield is similar, do have SSO one with Block enchant, but went for Gruul's ac/stats.
Rings (various tanking/threat/various) May have a blue one banked but I think the stats off the epic ones better especially with other factors influcing the fight (raid survivability).
Trinkets, rather use tanky/avoidance ones than the blocker.

Sadly that 255 is with the meta, Shield mastery ( I ain't that thick...) and normal tanking gear. Throw in the T4/badge/KZ block bits and it doubles. I just don't fancy the avoidance /stam/ac hit to do that. I can on ROS, just think it's too chancy on Archie.

Only thing I'd probably swap around block wise is the helmets, but the difference isn't huge, and in the past I've been more concerned with EH/Avoidance/threat/Resistance sets, and I can't see ZA/T5 being a liklihood anytime soon. Given how he hits I'd rather keep with EH/avoidance, especially until other silly errors are ironed out.

Edit
think I'll go with mouse binding it as it saves messing with my keys. Tried the dragons in BEM (can solo them with 35 shards), like NB no problem, but looking on thotbot they have longer casts @2.5. Now for the next attempt...

Celandro
08-01-2008, 05:27 PM
We just killed archimode for the second time, will try and help you out.

If you are logged off in the same gear you tank archimode in, you would do well to stack another 15-20% avoidance.
50% avoidance on archimode makes your healers job extremely difficult. There is no reason to stack expertise on archimode, it is not a threat fight at all and the parry reduction is not nearly as effective as the boss not hitting you.

I use the gear in my current armory except for a commendation over the 2nd dodge trinket
The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Cenarius&n=Celandro)

You do not want to be getting hit more than 4 times in a row. Anything less than 75% buffed avoidance + debuffs on the boss will make the odds of 5 hits in a row too high.

Your guild can help you out some with insect swarm + serpent sting and giving you a shaman with an agility totem. You can help yourself out with agility scroll, agility potion and socketing/enchanting some gear.

Don't let yourself be feared. I had the problem myself due to being MT, raid leader and guild leader all at the same time, so I had to offload the fear warning to someone else so I wouldnt mess it up.

headrush
08-01-2008, 10:13 PM
I agree with the post above. I tend to tank him in 60% + fully buffed--not quite as high as 75% but definately above 60%. It makes a difference. On the fears, as soon as the CD is over i literally keep my finger over my beserker macro waiting for the cast. I focus less on threat during this period.

mattdeeze
08-01-2008, 10:37 PM
You can still use Heroic Strike while waiting for the fear since it doesn't trigger your GCD. You are going to lose most of your rage when you switch stances anyway and stance dance doesnt cost any rage.

Dunmail
08-12-2008, 02:54 AM
Swapped the stance macro to mouse 5 (independent to KB rotation), and added a myopic size ecb target window as backup.

Basic, but so simple and effective. Went from 80-50% runs to 25-15% runs. Now if people can keep out of the fire, and don't get silenced.....

Efdit - Got him, nice to be able to tank on an airburst =P.

Corrodin
08-18-2008, 11:50 AM
You should not get feared. Let me say it again. You should NEVER get feared. Archimonde is the type of fight that is made for warriors, whether tanking or dpsing.

As a tank you dont get air bursted, unless your raid is fail and does it for you.

As for your combat log, I may not be a rocket scientist but getting healed for roughly 1/3 of the damage you are taking is going to be a losing battle everytime. Your healers need to be on your ass a.s.a.p.

Triank
08-22-2008, 04:53 PM
[quote=tehgreen;89833]for not catching fears u have a few options. one good idea is to grab deaden off of wowace, it lets u suppress certain spell casts from your unit frames (pitbull, necb etc) u can add all of archies spell's bar the fear, and just mash ur br macro wen anything in his cast bar lights up. b aware by default it suppresses deaden on ros.

quote]

Would you happen to have a walk through on how to add airburst so it doesnt pop up? I really like the idea of getting rid of the airburst cast bar just makes fear dancing a bit easier.

When I installed deadened it said you add spells to suppress via spell ID(must be numerical).

Does anyone have the proper info to put in for airburst?

Worldie
08-22-2008, 04:58 PM
Search for it on wowhead.

Triank
08-22-2008, 05:15 PM
Search for it on wowhead.

I tried that but could not come up with any type of number that might seem to be for it.

Triank
08-26-2008, 12:56 PM
For those who wish to take the advice of someone previously in this post to make stance dancing a bit easier here is the text you need.

Download the addon Deadened.

Then type this in.
/deadened spells add 32014

This will remove airburst from being seen on your cast bar from archie thus the only casted spell you will see is fear so you can just react when you see the cast bar and not have to read if its airburst or fear. Hope this helps for you guys.

Worldie
08-26-2008, 04:51 PM
I tried that but could not come up with any type of number that might seem to be for it.

Air Burst - Spell - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=32014)

Check the link and you'll find what i meant :)
It ends with spell=32014 ;)

Dragaan
08-28-2008, 03:57 AM
You can still use Heroic Strike while waiting for the fear since it doesn't trigger your GCD. You are going to lose most of your rage when you switch stances anyway and stance dance doesnt cost any rage.

You can do anything while waiting. Swapping stances doesn't work on the regular GCD, it has it's own.

Shakari
09-11-2008, 11:20 PM
We just killed archimode for the second time, will try and help you out.

If you are logged off in the same gear you tank archimode in, you would do well to stack another 15-20% avoidance.
50% avoidance on archimode makes your healers job extremely difficult. There is no reason to stack expertise on archimode, it is not a threat fight at all and the parry reduction is not nearly as effective as the boss not hitting you.

I use the gear in my current armory except for a commendation over the 2nd dodge trinket
The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Cenarius&n=Celandro)

You do not want to be getting hit more than 4 times in a row. Anything less than 75% buffed avoidance + debuffs on the boss will make the odds of 5 hits in a row too high.

Your guild can help you out some with insect swarm + serpent sting and giving you a shaman with an agility totem. You can help yourself out with agility scroll, agility potion and socketing/enchanting some gear.

Don't let yourself be feared. I had the problem myself due to being MT, raid leader and guild leader all at the same time, so I had to offload the fear warning to someone else so I wouldnt mess it up.

parry is the same are dodge for avoidance except your next attack is faster overall its better than dodge as avoidance stat wise but is more expensive thus making dodge better value for pure avoidance :)

and personally from what I have experienced, I tank him with approx 54% unbuffed avoidance, I can get upto about 63% and have tried with that much but have found I end up rage starved to much generally and the raid I'm in has a few insane melee dps.

Having talked with the healers given there gear they have zero problem healing me with that 54% unbuffed avoidance. the reason we wipe is usually ranged dps dying to fire or occasionally fire/curse/falling combo's, and me getting clobbered by 2+ soul charges as we usually survive one charge 95% of the time, or most of my healers getting isolated due to fire which is rare. My death in all these cases would not have been prevented by more avoidance basically.

I can only think of 3 times in 40+ goes where I can attribute the raid wiping due to me dying 1st, one of those was when I got unluckily insta gib running in and the healers were a little slow, the next was a bit of lag on a stance dance and me being feared because of it, and lastly was one melee getting a little to close and me being air bursted and getting gibbed on landing :P Basically I am not dying due to to little avoidance in any way I have seen so far, if I start seeing it I'll swap gear round to get it.

I ain't saying I could not use more avoidance, but 75% does seem high for a minimum from my experience limited tho that may be in some ways.

Celandro
09-12-2008, 09:29 AM
75% includes all buffs and serpent sting.
My own example
77.25% unbuffed avoidance (yes i know this is excessive)
81.58% with Improved Mark, Blessing of Kings, Grace of Air totem, Elixir of Major agility
82.92% with above + scroll of agility + agility food
87.92% with above + scorpid sting
89.92% with above + insect swarm
90.28% if improved grace of air
=13.03% from buffs/debuffs

75%-13% = 62% unbuffed which is not very difficult to get at all.
65% if you exclude esoterics like agility food, improved grace of air and insect swarm

You can't just look at how often you die to determine the impact of avoidance. The point is not simply wether you are dying or not, the point is freeing up your healers so they can almost ignore you other than PoM, renew, lifebloom, Earth Shield. This lets them focus on keeping the raid alive and not looping fires into the melee

Shakari
09-12-2008, 07:26 PM
Granted avoidance is not just about not dying, I realise that, but in my case and really thats all my opinion is about, healing is not a problem on my or anyone else in any shape or form, its ppl getting used to the tactics and situational awareness thats the thing, ppl are dying because there out of range of there decurser, or get airburst away from there assigned group so they get grip'd and can;t be cleaned, or ppl getting cut off by fire and stranded out of range..

having more avoidance in these cases will not prevent any of that happening.

I guess I am just not a fan of insanely high avoidance, I alway adjust my gear to what suites and talk with those healing me before during and after fight to see where I need to adjust things, and after a lot of tries I have come to the setup I am using now, if the healer say there having a hard time healing me with this next raid for some reason I'll put on more avoidance.

But on our best attempt which is currently 42% my healers had not gone below 65% mana and had not used any pots, I cannot see my avoidance being to low being honest. and as the OP says "what gears needed" not what the ideal values, he and myself will probably not get some of the gear you have till after archi is dead :) its about what will work.

And gemming for one fight for insane avoidance seems a bit unnessesary imo. According to tankpoints in the set up I have, raid buffed I have 86.9% mitigation against physical vs a lvl 73 mob, which atm seems enough for my conditions.

thedrawrf
09-12-2008, 07:44 PM
Forgive me, but I think your rage and therefore threat may be a bit low with 80-90% avoidance...but hey, whatever floats your boat. I guess.

Celandro
09-15-2008, 10:22 AM
Sure rage is low and I certainly dont recommend going all the way to 85% for learning the fight. However, noone pulls agro and the healers have a lot of luxury to heal 'retards' who get hit with fire. When I was running 75% avoidance i had a 50% threat lead so i put more avoidance on until now when im 20-30% over everyone except the dps warrior who im over by 10%.

Running 65% unbuffed avoidance, getting an agility totem and having the hunter keep serpent sting up will make this fight much easier and repeatable.

Anna
09-19-2008, 09:55 AM
I use the following addon.

CastProgress 2 : WoWInterface Downloads : Casting Bars and Cooldowns (http://www.wowinterface.com/downloads/info4173.html)

Satrina's stuff is top notch. I find this addon to be a necessity for my playstyle. For any fight with fear this is a life saver. Archimonde does not always fear right on with timers such as DBM. I have experienced fears well past 10 secs after the bar elapses.

The utility with this addon is limitless for raiding. You can even set it up track a focus target. I rarely miss reflecting a judgement on Gathios or a deaded on RoS; shadowbolts on Kalecgos. Even though I am a fire tank on Illidan, the few times I've had the unfortunate opportunity to pick up Illidan after our MT died I found blocking shear to be trivial with this add on. And the uses go on and on and on...

tuffmuffin
09-20-2008, 04:02 AM
Archimonde does not always fear right on with timers such as DBM. I have experienced fears well past 10 secs after the bar elapses.

That's because timers are an approximation. Always have been, even since before TBC. If bosses used abilities like that as soon as they became active it would be even easier than it already is to avoid them. By letting the mob "choose" when they use their abilities they add to the difficulty and make sure you're at least half watching the game to see it happen.