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Invisniper
07-28-2008, 12:20 PM
I'm not sure if anyone has done the math on this yet, but the Phoenix-Wing Cloak from A'lar with a 12 dodge rating enchant gives 0.47% more avoidance over Slikk's Cloak of Placation (assuming my math is right) with the same enchant while sacrificing only 238 armor. I haven't done the math on the loss of armor yet, but from first glance 238 armor vs. 0.47% avoidance is pretty big on a fight like Brut where stacking dodge is the way to go. My question is, why do I never see anyone use this cloak?

Worldie
07-28-2008, 12:34 PM
Slikk with +120 armor enchant. Armor > avoidance.

Nicki
08-12-2008, 04:18 AM
Slikk with +120 armor enchant. Armor > avoidance.

dont want to go into an avoidance debate but the armor enchant is way out classed by avoidance enchants.

400 armor = roughly 0.5% damage reduction
so 120 armor = 0.15%

12 dodge is 0.66% chance to dodge and 12 def slightly less.

And since we are talking about brutallus since you as a paladin will clam 4% means nothing on this fight so does 120 armor mean nothing where as not dodging enough is fatal.

Sanelora
08-12-2008, 05:58 AM
Slikk with +120 armor enchant. Armor > avoidance.

I'm sorry Nicki but I am going to have to agree with the holy gold glow here. For any class, armor is very very good on this fight (except maybe druids who would not get any benefit from armor over the "cap" of 75% damage reduction, areas that could have been used to get extra dodge or health) and every little bit of extra armor for is just awesome.

Remember that, especially with stomp, there is a high chance that the tank being pounded stupidly hard.

It is advisable to pop a consumable(nightmare seed)/trinket(moroes' watch/Shadowmoon Insignia)/talent or move (last stand/shield wall) or let the other tank take the hits. On the few times where you have no choice but to ride out a stomp, even with a consumable or "oh shit" button popped, the armor will shine without a doubt considering that 3 consecutive hits (MH/OH/MH) can near drop you if a heal is missed for whatever reason.

Personally, I don't think avoidance out-performs armor on this particular fight unless you have most of the gear from sunwell, purely because if you stack pure avoidance you are diminishing your EH and Brutallus is a fight that requires an insane amount of EH. Everyone, especially on this website, champions EH for a reason; you need it to be able to survive the burst damage that boss X can put out. Brut has close to the highest single-target burst damage output of any boss in this game.

As for stacking some/a lot of avoidance, playing that hard with RNG (random number generator) is just destined to fail, especially with sunwell radiance.

I am not saying don't enchant/gem for avoidance, I am saying that were sensible, avoidance is better than EH BUT if you are learning this fight, EH all the way

Dragaan
08-12-2008, 10:00 AM
I'm not sure if I agree with the "EH all the way for learning Brut" statement... This is one boss that hits you so hard/fast that no matter HOW much EH you have (assuming BT/Hyjal gear mostly), you can and will get gibbed very often. This fight has very few random elements in it. The one thing that is random which causes most non-enrage wipes is the RNG. You kind of have to push avoidance and pray that it works. Once your avoidance starts to really get up there (30+dodge 20+parry pre-radiance), you have a MUCH better chance of avoiding insta-gibs than if you had just 1-1.5k more health/armor and average avoidance.

ESPECIALLY if you are not in gear past kalecgos, I say stick with 12dodge for brut.


Edit: I generally tell people that 16.5k health (17+ ideally) and 19k armor is what to push for when learning brutallus. Then you can really push the avoidance. I know Xav stated elsewhere on these forums that 15.5k health is good enough, but I really don't think that is a good idea for most tanks. Seems pretty low.

Nicki
08-12-2008, 10:19 AM
No no no no

Your avatar suggests you aren't even in the depth of brutallus.

If you don't dodge at certain points on brutallus you will die, if you dont dodge enough you will die. Ive seen brutallus kill our best geared tanks in roughly 1 second!!!

The fight is NOT an EH fight EVER! The last thing you want to do is take 1 off his top end as max hits of 10kmh and 6koff hand (they hit at rougly the same time) means that 2 attacks is 32k damage and thats roughly in 2 seconds. Not Dodging is fatal in this fight.

Low end attacks of 6kmh and 4koh still mean you can take 20k damage in no time at all combined with a burn or no less the stomp damage component you could die.

21:59'59.200 Brutallus's Swing hits for 3254 Physical (490 blocked)
303853 21:59'59.200 Brutallus's Swing hitsfor 6344 Physical (490 blocked)
303944 22:00'00.403 Brutallus's Swing hits for 7458 Physical (490 blocked)
303945 22:00'00.403 Brutallus's Swing hits for 3863 Physical

Thats almost 21k damage in 1 second!!!! if he had 120 armor it would be a whole 25 damage avoided but the question is would he have avoided the hit:

21:59'58.059 Brutallus's Swing dodged by

Constant healing is required ofc but hell if you get unlucky you will die regardless of block value/mitigation! EH is not this fight, this is the avoidance fight of TBC.

This is due to the importance of damage frequency the more avoidance you have the less likely you are to take alot of hits in a row

On brutallus 12 dodge rating works out to 1.6 avoided attacks and thats all you need to survive.

120 armor works out to 4-15 damage reduction.

if the avoided attack is 10000 then it works out to about 1.5% damage reduction or 9991 damage

Where as 12 damage off of every hit works out to 1464...

Im sorry numbers win out on avoidance.
compared to

Inaara
08-12-2008, 11:04 AM
I prefer to use Phoenix-Wing Cloak with +12 Dodge on it. I've done it with both combinations and the survivablilty is definetely more noticeable with the additional avoidance that Phoenix-Wing Cloak has to offer. I'd link a WWS report comparing the two but I can't find them.

ttocs
08-13-2008, 03:15 PM
I have always used Slikk's with 120 armor. I get my avoidance from other pieces.

It's an EH fight up until the point where you can survive an unlucky chain of hits, and then you stack avoidance so you don't get gibbed.

Because he hits so fast, avoidance nearly becomes a constant.

Xav
08-13-2008, 03:22 PM
Slikk's with 120 armor. Remember, all armor enchants are doubled in effectiveness during stomp because they aren't affected by it, this includes Ironshields and the +240 glove armor enchant and the +120 armor cloak enchant. Suddenly 240 armor is effectively 480, and 120 is 240... sounds nice, doesn't it?

I will agree however that Brutallus is an avoidance fight (and an obvious one), but the strength of the enchants available in some slots is skewed due to the fight mechanics. I took 480 armor over 15 agi on gloves, and 240 armor over dodge rating to cloak.

Nicki
08-13-2008, 03:37 PM
The thing is even during stomp (50% less ac) using a high ratio of 9 AC = 1 stam you get:

Cloak @ 120 armor = 13 stam = under 1 epic gem

Cape @ 12 dodge = 1.2 epic gems

Using item points value even while stomped dodge is better item points wise and likely just as effective. Since if you get rid of an extra hit your chances of surviving stomp are higher in theory.

Also if you are popping an avoidance clicky at stomp you will get more out of dodge on cloak likewise if somehow you have an armor clicky you will get slightly more out of that armor on cloak.

Maybe im missing something but if anything the stacking of dodge seems to number out significantly better.

Xav
08-13-2008, 03:51 PM
Your Armor to "epic gem" conversion varies based on the tank's current health and armor levels, and I'm not sure if you counted it as double the bonus during stomp, or how you did it.

Also, anyone who uses an "armor clicky" (that terrible ZJ trinket) needs to probably not be in Sunwell.

Dots
08-19-2008, 04:26 AM
Alright so use 120ac enchant because it's not affected by Stomp and anyone using Ancient Aqir Artifact should be shot because... the click is also unaffected by Stomp?

Anyway, the exact difference between the two cloaks is actually 0.41% avoidance (but always depends on your current defense and rounding) and I prefer to use Slikk's with +dodge. It's close but Slikk's is also better for the other dangerous part of this fight, tank switches.

Sanelora
08-19-2008, 04:59 AM
Just for reference, that has been my avatar for a seriously LONG time (4-5 months ago?) and is hardly relevant to this conversation.

my gear has changed quite a bit since then (that is also my FR gear - not wearing my FR helm cause its ugly! - for my first illidan, who i happen to be standing in-front of)

your timestamps indicate ~1.5 sec and that is just an unlucky overlapping (or lack there-of) of heals. personally, i think more damage would come from a 3rd Slash hitting the tank with stomp and then taking two hits. has the potential for a MUCH greater amount of damage, 1 third of the attacks which can not be avoided. Also, he attacks fast but not THAT fast. that sounds like somewhat of a parry gib to me.

Also, we are working on Felmyst now =/

Back on topic:
refer to Xav's comments about armor as they are exactly on the mark.

The fact that avoidance has been knocked down a notch in sunwell, what with the whole radiance thing and all would mean you would need to be seriously gemming for avoidance and in fantastically good gear to actually make as effective a dent in his incoming damage. This would leave most tanks (except for the ones outlined below) BELOW the actual EH minimums of the raid zone and even the encounter minimums.

I know that if you have been farming BT for an exceptionally long time that you have gotten every piece that you have ever wanted you can have the gear to do it, gemmed for avoidance easily. But most didn't and don't have the luxury of farming BT until the tank has every piece that they desire. In fact, I have know guilds that have had their first Illidan kill early on in a raid night and instead of going to do hyjal or just sitting around doing nothing, they went to sunwell. As it stands with that point made, most tanks fighting brut would have a greater chance to parry him (or in some cases for the REALLY undergeared) even a greater chance to be missed.

sunwell radiance has placed another set of cards on the table. if you are an alt stepping into sunwell like i know some of the KJ guilds have, some of the tanks do not even have the 20% dodge to have fully negated. not even close. but they have stacked tonnes of armor from various items that they have picked up.

This is all a situational thing and personally, I believe that armor and stamina is MUCH more important on this fight.

that said, gearing isn't the main problem with brut. It is tank transitions. Getting them timed correctly. Making sure that your soak groups aren't eating 4 meteor slashes. Making sure stomp is being managed in an effective way. You are forced to play with the random number generator on this fight, hence why you can take idiotic amounts of damage in one second.

In the end, this is just my opinion. It is up to the tank to decide on how he/she gears for a specific encounter. I hate to say this but it is one of those fights that you should just "Go with your gut feeling" as to what works best but from my experience, Armor is the way to go and that is what i am going to stick to

Sanelora
08-19-2008, 06:36 AM
but from first glance 238 armor vs. 0.47% avoidance

Just something that was missed in calculations too (I know that I didnt think of it to just now).

It isn't just comparing enchants on cloaks. It is comparing specific enchants on specific cloaks.

Just for reference's sake:





Armor
Mitigation (73) = -----------------



Armor + 11960



WARNING: Incoming simple maths

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Non-Stomped: assuming 19000 armour unbuffed armor to work off - not taking ironshields/scrolls(ew)/armor procs/ etc etc into account. This grants: 61.36% armor reduction

33593 with 120 armor =
466 armor total granting a total of 62.87% armor reduction
roughly 1.32% avoidance from dodge
and slightly less than 1% avoidance from defense
for our pusposes - we shall round it to 2% total avoidance

29925 with 12 dodge =
108 armor total granting a total of 61.50% armor reduction
roughly 2.06% avoidance from dodge
and slightly less than 1.2~%
For our purposes - 3.2% total avoidance.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Stomped: assuming 9500 (19000) armour unbuffed to work off - not taking ironshields/scrolls(ew)/armor procs/ etc etc into account. This grants: 44.26% armor reduction

33593 with 120 armor =
293 armor total (assuming that enchants aren't affected by stomp) granting a total of 45.01% armor reduction
roughly 1.32% avoidance from dodge
and slightly less than 1% avoidance from defense
for our pusposes - we shall round it to 2% total avoidance

29925 with 12 dodge =
54 armor total granting a total of 44.40% armor reduction
roughly 2.06% avoidance from dodge
and slightly less than 1.2~%
For our purposes - 3.2% total avoidance.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

On those figures, I would go with armor as the scaling value of percentage reduction. Interpret the numbers however you will. There is no doubt that avoidance is powerful but it revolves mainly around the other gear that you are wearing or that you have available to you.

@Xav, I am not sure what you mean by saying armor enchants double in value rather than just double in effectiveness to be quite honest with you.

Stomp removes burn so that is also a non-issue unless you have it with two slashes and he isnt going to stomp you on that particular rotation.

finally, after writing not one but two small novels on this thread, i must apologize if i seem a bit angry, abrasive and all. The cat that i have had from when i was little was hit by a car and had to be put down even my dog is agitated not seeing him around =(

anyways at the end of all that: Do whatever you want, as long as it works for you and your guild.

You will be wiping anyways so you might as well just try both. As an added bonus, cloaks dont take dura. :p

EDIT: Something I couldnt quite put my finger on before: http://www.tankspot.com/forums/evil-empire-guides/33102-diminishing-returns.html

Specifically:

Mitigation is subject to diminishing returns, but armour is not

Graphically:
http://images.wikia.com/wowwiki/images/4/4e/ArmorVsTimeToLive-LVL70.PNG

Inaara
08-19-2008, 10:06 AM
See now Felmyst is a Slikks fight all the way. Got our first kill last night ^_^. I was having a threat issue with Phoenix and damage was way too spikey.

Xav
08-19-2008, 02:29 PM
Changing one cloak won't make the difference between a kill or a wipe like that, mostly just rng ;) it's little things that add up.

Dots: Not literally. Yes, the clicky effect is similarly "twice as good" during stomp, but, it's still not as powerful as the on-demand avoidance of a Moroes, I'd think. I haven't actually done the math, though, if someone wants to do it. I didn't consider that part of it.

Sanelora: Yea, double effectiveness/double value, same meaning, I just didn't word it the most proper.

Sanelora
08-19-2008, 04:21 PM
ah, sorry just read your earlier post Xav. it was like 11pm when i wrote that post and uni has really taken it out of me. You actually say "Double in effectiveness".

lol Last edited by Sanelora; Yesterday at 11:30 PM.

Whoops!

sorry mate

Right. Maths.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Stomped: assuming 9500 (19000) armour unbuffed to work off - not taking ironshields/scrolls(ew)/armor procs/ etc etc into account. This grants: 44.26% armor reduction

28528 - Provides 2.01% static dodge
Use: Provides 15.83% dodge for 10sec
That is effectively 17.84% dodge from one trinket slot for 10 sec.

33830 - Provides 1.9% static parry
Use: Provides 2500 armor for 20 sec (allowing a total of 12000 armor for 20 sec) which grants: 50.08% armor mitigation.
this is 5.82% more base armor mitigation than you would otherwise have.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Given those numbers, i would go with moroes' and the shadowmoon insignia (for the health "clicky")

but otherwise, it is again subjective. Choose what you think will benifit you most. but i agree when Xav says that
33830 is vendor trash. when i got it i was like: "Sweet. Free 9 gold!!!"

Personally, i would prefer to use 30629 or 34473 if i didnt have the Moroes'. The commendation is really really really good. good avoidance boost and activates when you need it as opposed to "clickys" that are not bad but sometimes miss saving your life by a few milliseconds especially when you play with an australian ping. Me being in darwin, the equivalent of "Out bush" in terms of cities doesnt help either. i normally play with anywhere from 350-600 MS

I agree with being able to avoid damage without costing yourself the EH requirement on this fight :p
that is, at least until you have awesome sunwell gear or even when you dont need any more gear from BT and have gemmed and enchanted for avoidance.

Dots
08-20-2008, 03:23 AM
Now that we agree on that, it can also be concluded that 12 dodge on cloak would be the better choice, especially when considering how avoidance stacks up.

I would never consider something like Ancient Aqir Artifact as vendor trash, it could have turned out to be useful for something. If there was another similar trinket, it would actually work well on Felmyst for example.

Sanelora
08-20-2008, 07:03 AM
my problem with "armor clickies" is that there is never, really, a "good time" to use it. generally you would pop it whenever it is up and then it creates an uneven feel for your healers.

that isnt the main problem however! you click a clicky as an "OH SHI-" button. examples: last stand, shield wall so on and so forth.

armor is NOT going to help in an "OH SHI-" situation. however, health (SM insig/Battlemasters) and avoidance (moroes', scarab) are going to help significantly more than an extra 2500 armor for 20 sec every 2 minutes.

health scales so much faster, point for point to EH than armor does (that is somewhere in the man-god satrina's documents, again cant put my finger on it) hence making health clickies much more useful and valuable. avoidance speaks for itself, being given a mathematically significant chance to dodge an otherwise potentially fatal blow (this also works with the commendation of kael'thas but it isnt a clicky)

make of it what you will, but i still think that 120 armor to cloak is more valuable on this fight.

Dots
08-20-2008, 07:26 AM
You are contradicting your own reasoning with your cloak enchant and trinket choices then.

I was also not talking about an ''oh shit' situation, I was talking about Felmyst.

Sanelora
08-20-2008, 07:49 AM
cloak = cloak slot
trinket = trinket slot

they are different slots for a reason. trinkets ususally come with:
a groovy uses/activate conditions
and avoidance and/or HP

i have different preferences for my trinket slot and for my cape slot and even for felmyst i would say that on demand avoidance is much more useful than 2500 armor for 20 sec every 2 minutes.

remember that what i said regards to EH and not gimping yourself in terms of the actual fight. i never said anything about NOT using avoidance. as nicki said, not dodging enough can be fatal. Someone very wise once said this to me:
"You cant avoid a hit unless you can take a hit"

also vene said:

"its not about EH or avoidance, its about EH AND avoidance"

those are probably the two best quotes ever said with regards to tanking. one compliments the other. that said, i am not arguing with you, you can do what you want, i am simply voicing my opinion.

Xav
08-20-2008, 07:51 AM
I don't / didn't gear on Brutallus exclusively for Stomp periods, I tried to just reduce the incoming damage a lot, with Stomp in mind for trinket choices and such. 120 armor to cloak boosts an already high-armor piece (the cloak), which is generally how I enchant my gear. It may not make sense at first glance, but yeah. High stam piece may have stam gems/enchants for even higher stam, same goes for threat, etc. Since warriors don't get many "bonus armor" options gear-wise, I decided to keep Slikk's as a high armor piece incase it's really needed.

Being that avoidance is exceptional on Brutallus, though, the closeness in the enchants can be debated a lot, as we see here. The difference in total average "damage reduction" from 120 armor to 12 agi is something in the range of like .2 or .3 %, right? Or less, not anywhere convenient where I can check this currently. Rather small difference, with stomp making armor get a free boost, and keeping a high armor piece for Theoretical Special Armor Value Boss Guy, a boss I was preparing for!

Sanelora
08-20-2008, 07:57 AM
and with that. to bed i go

Dots
08-20-2008, 09:45 AM
i have different preferences for my trinket slot and for my cape slot and even for felmyst i would say that on demand avoidance is much more useful than 2500 armor for 20 sec every 2 minutes.

Sorry but Felmyst is the prime example of a fight where you should be willing to give up a lot avoidance for EH. Unless of course you enjoy getting 2-shot. Brutallus on the other hand is almost the exact opposite of this.

Sanelora
08-20-2008, 05:44 PM
on felmyst, i get 2 shot in my PvE MS gear.

the biggest problem i have come across is dealing with gas nova.

corrode armor is just a gimmick and you can heal through it almost as easily as illidan's soft enrage. that and avoidance helps a lot there too.

in the end its the same style as brut. just as corrode armor hits is when you are most likely to die from it (the same as stomp on brut).

it either lies almost entirely on the healers feet if you die but there are time when you recieve damage so fast that noone could have healed it. basically, our good old buddy, RNG

Worldie
08-20-2008, 08:44 PM
On Felmyst you just have to be able to survive corrosion + cleave, that's 22k dam. So, you get 23k HP, then stack avoidance.

Sanelora
08-20-2008, 09:03 PM
On Felmyst you just have to be able to survive corrosion + cleave, that's 22k dam. So, you get 23k HP, then stack avoidance.

come to save the day again :P

that is exactly how i thought when gearing for it. the reason i brought up gas nova is because some of our mass dispels were missing the MT. solved by getting our prot pally to solo dispel the MT as Mr Hypno-Marmot Lore suggested!

but that is the same as most gearing strategies and that is what i am arguing. be able to take the hit then stack avoidance from there onwards

Worldie
08-20-2008, 09:41 PM
Well in theory, for both brut, felmyst, or any boss, you "can" gear for stamina.

The point is, taking Felmyst as example since it's simpler.
You get 8k corrosion + 14k cleave, that's ~22k damage. Let's say 22000 exactly for this purpose, and you got 22001 HP. Now, let's say you want to survive a 3rd non avoided hit without any heal in the middle. Considering the swing will hit for 8k. You need to get to 30001 HP in order to survive a 3rd unavoided hit.

Doesn't take a high IQ to see this is not doable, so you stack avoidance and hope to dodge/parry/miss the next hit.

That's not rocket science.

Brutallus works pretty much the same, once you get Stomp+MH+OH, you got about 21k damage. To survive a non avoided hit you need 10k more HP. If you can get to 31k buffed HP, kudos to you. I'm pretty sure not even a warrior with Last Stand can get that high.

Sanelora
08-20-2008, 10:04 PM
seed/shadowmoon insig and stand probably could but you are right :p

absorb the maximum unhealable burst (like,anything that hits in >0.5 sec) and avoid some to boot

Worldie
08-20-2008, 10:18 PM
I always thought that gnomes are wise <3

Dots
08-21-2008, 01:26 AM
The point is, taking Felmyst as example since it's simpler.
You get 8k corrosion + 14k cleave, that's ~22k damage. Let's say 22000 exactly for this purpose, and you got 22001 HP. Now, let's say you want to survive a 3rd non avoided hit without any heal in the middle. Considering the swing will hit for 8k. You need to get to 30001 HP in order to survive a 3rd unavoided hit.

Doesn't take a high IQ to see this is not doable, so you stack avoidance and hope to dodge/parry/miss the next hit.

That's not rocket science.

Brutallus works pretty much the same, once you get Stomp+MH+OH, you got about 21k damage. To survive a non avoided hit you need 10k more HP. If you can get to 31k buffed HP, kudos to you. I'm pretty sure not even a warrior with Last Stand can get that high.

Felmyst can get parry hasted, the worst case is more like 24k.

You won't survive another hit with no heals in your example, but you can survive with just 1 heal in between. Of course that would never happen in your ideal world, but it does actually happen over here in the real world where human error is also a factor. Doesn't take a high IQ to realize this!

And even though it doesn't matter much here, 31k HP is easily doable with Last Stand, that's why it's a good cooldown to use on Stomp.

Sanelora
08-21-2008, 01:53 AM
It sounds as if you are trying to insult worldie now! :mad:

i dont mean to be inflammatory or anything like that, but you seem to miss the point of parry HASTE.

it DOES NOT affect the damage that it does. just the speed at which your face gets caved in. even with haste, it cant really speed up past 1.5 sec, even at the max applicable haste (for felmyst).

the point of overlapping heals is to deal with that haste. worldie's example was probably just about the worst possible situation possible on felmyst. if felmyst's max burst was 24k then the only way that you would be able to live through that is with last stand and i hardly think that possible every time it happens.

in the end, a good raid is all about 25 people reducing human error and that is why raiding is so satisfying.

Worldie
08-21-2008, 03:17 AM
How exactly Felmyst can put out 24k damage in less than 3 seconds?
Corrosion, 8k damage.
Let's say she gets parryhasted right after it.
Cleave, 14k damage after 1.6 seconds
2 more seconds until next swing. Let's say she gets parry hasted again.
1.6 seconds after, you get a 8k swing.

Between the Corrosion and the 3rd hit, there has been 3.2 seconds. If in 3.2 seconds no heals landed, that's healer failure. You shouldn't be in Sunwell with such horrible healers then.

The maximum burst is usually taken between 2 seconds, because even if you got only one healer healing you, heals will be landing every 2.5 seconds at worse (that is, if he got no haste, doubtful in Sunwell, our paladins nowaday spam Holy Lights at 1.8 cast time).

Then i can say Brutallus can burst you 40k damage in about 2.5 seconds if you really want fat numbers, and there, if you don't avoid at least one of the main hand hits, you die period, no matter how much HP you got.



I hope i proved your point is wrong so you can understand what me and the pinky are trying to explain you. I don't like to be harsh but i didn't really like the tone you used.

Sanelora
08-21-2008, 04:00 AM
i didn't really like the tone you used.

exactly

Dots
08-21-2008, 06:30 AM
I was just following up on your IQ comments, please don't be offended!

The maximum burst for Felmyst is Cleave + Aura tick + hasted melee, which can easily go up to 11500 even when blocked (and not 8k). Two melee swings + aura tick can be quite bad as well.

Sanelora
08-21-2008, 06:48 AM
something we can all agree on :)

felmyst has big burst!

Worldie
08-21-2008, 07:05 AM
I was just following up on your IQ comments, please don't be offended!

The maximum burst for Felmyst is Cleave + Aura tick + hasted melee, which can easily go up to 11500 even when blocked (and not 8k). Two melee swings + aura tick can be quite bad as well.
I didn't want to make any offence, i wanted just to say "simply" in a more colourful way, excuse me if it seembed offensive.

Regarding the aura, you got a point. However, she can't melee istantly after corrosion, since Corrosion has a cast time, thus resets her swing timer, making it pretty much like i said.

Well, add 900ish damage to what above :o



That said, there's something practice show about brut, felmyst and sacrolash. If they want, they burst down even a full sunwell geared tank, no matter how many HP you have.
Experience shown that you avoid this... with avoidance, since surviving those burst by HP is very unlikely.

Dots
08-21-2008, 08:00 AM
My burst scenarios don't include Corrosion. Compared to the potential Cleaves and melee after, it's a weak attack.

Felmyst burst potential can be outgeared with EH. It's sort of ok for Sacrolash, but avoidance doesn't work perfectly for her burst either, since you can only avoid the hits before Confounding Blow, not the double crushes after. That encounter is somewhat of a middle ground.
I agree for Brutallus though, unless you are well over 30kHP (or a druid), you will have to avoid some attacks. Which brings us back on topic; use dodge for a cloak enchant.

Xav
08-21-2008, 09:44 AM
I generally agree with everything Dots writes and he''s right here. Avoidance doesn't do too much to help with Felmyst burst, although oddly I find the only part where Felmyst burst matters involves Corrosion. Corrosion+Cleave can be massive damage, and I'm not so sure her cleave replaces her melee attack? I seem to recall taking Melee+Cleave right next to each other without much delay, but maybe not.

The armor vs dodge to cloak enchant argument though will probably never end, I've stated my reasons at least, which are different from most peoples'. I understand math and know the gains each provides, but for the cloak, that's not why I enchanted mine that way.

And a question for you Dots, do you have multiple pieces of nearly every Sunwell piece? Seeing your pure stam gems in your current Armory seems to contradict a lot of what you've generally talked about on the boards, although it does definitely seem like it may have been comprised for purposes of max stam set only.

Worldie
08-21-2008, 10:10 AM
My burst scenarios don't include Corrosion. Compared to the potential Cleaves and melee after, it's a weak attack.

Felmyst burst potential can be outgeared with EH. It's sort of ok for Sacrolash, but avoidance doesn't work perfectly for her burst either, since you can only avoid the hits before Confounding Blow, not the double crushes after. That encounter is somewhat of a middle ground.
I agree for Brutallus though, unless you are well over 30kHP (or a druid), you will have to avoid some attacks. Which brings us back on topic; use dodge for a cloak enchant.

Good point about the confunding, you are right on that one yep.

Looks like we got different hypotesis on where the burst comes from on Felmyst tho. I've seen tanks gibbed only during corrosion and actually at the start of it, and never had any issue with the rest.
Cleave "looks" like being on "next melee", at least i've never seen it going out at same time as a melee... also since if it was possible, then corrosion+cleave+melee would be deadly for anyone.

Xav
08-21-2008, 10:16 AM
I always thought it was possible like that, since it's why I started having our extra OT warrior or dps warrior intervene the MT when Corrosion hits, to sponge an attack that could be deadly. I haven't checked in detail in months though, and have done it a few times with no intervene, so... I don't know for certain. I don't have any recent logs however with no Intervene used, so I don't have an easy way of checking for myself.

Dots
08-21-2008, 11:29 AM
I too think that Cleave replaces her melee, but you can still get cleave -> parry hasted melee and maybe an aura tick.

About the gear, I often gem and enchant new tanking gear for stamina because I don't like the trade-off, generally want it to be less than 1sta for 1 dodge/def. It's usually just a bunch of enchants and the odd gem that favor avoidance in my opinion.

Sanelora
08-21-2008, 03:47 PM
I still like armor to cloak because its a constant reduction in incoming melee damage as opposed to a "chance to avoid all damage"! :p

but thats just me! as for Sacrolash, I am still on felmyst so I can't comment :(

there was a stunning example of avoidance on M'uru on here a while ago. a warrior (a female tauren) taking all three of the back adds at once.