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View Full Version : Why Armor Penetration is your friend!



Kazeyonoma
07-17-2008, 02:45 PM
Base Armor of a 25 man raid boss is 7700 or ~42.23% armor mitigation

Post Expose Armor (Improved Rank 2) brings this value down by 3075 to 4625 or ~30.5% armor mitigation

If you don't have rogue to do this, sunder armor reduces by 2600 to 5100 or ~32.5% armor mitigation

Curse of Recklessness is another - 800 which brings it down to:
expose armor: 3825 which is ~ 26.73% armor mitigation
or
sunder armor: 4300 which is ~28.87% armor mitigation

That's about all you can get from raid debuffs. Now is where your Armor Penetration from gear starts to play a role.

Removing 840 armor just from executioner enchant brings down these values a large chunk:
2985 : ~22.1% armor mitigation
or
3460 : ~24.89% armor mitigation

That leaves 3000-3500 armor left to be removed from gear alone.

Lets look at how much damage you increase just by having 100 more armor pen:

2885: ~21.49% a ~.6% increase in your out going damage
or
3360: ~24.26% a ~.6% increase in your out going damage

now lets add another 100 armor penetration to see that this next 100 will be > increase than just .6%

2785: ~20.84% a ~.65% increase in your outgoing damage
or
3260: ~ 23.6% a ~.65% increase in your out going damage

and just for emphasis sake lets do it 1 more time:

2685: ~20.1% a ~.75% increase in your outgoing damage
or
3160: ~22.85% a ~.75% increase in your out going damage

Given this trend, you can see that each 100 armor you further reduce from your enemy target, the faster and higher your % increase becomes per reduction.

That means someone like myself who has ~500 ignore armor and executioner proc will bring a raid boss mob's armor down to:
2500: ~19.1% , a net gain of 7.63% outgoing damage to a mob
or
3000: ~22.12%, a net gain of 6.75% outgoing damage to a mob.




This was done very hastily so the math is terrible, ignore this post for now unless someone wants to redo the math correctly, I've just been using warcrafter sandbox and substituting gear in and out to try to get as close as possible to the numbers I gave here. So the values are all estimated.

What I am trying to accomplish with this post is to show how Armor Penetration scales faster than linear and with math and actual data that as you approach 0 on the bosses armor (theoretically impossible to reach unless it's a lot armor mob) your gains per 100 armor pen increase. Eventually I want to turn this into a guide where you can measure how armor penetration can lead to higher dps per 70 armor penetration than 20 attack power.

Sorry for wasting anyone's time with this right now. Just trying to get what I have in my head out on paper first, then will go back and fix this as I find time.

ebs2002
07-18-2008, 09:56 AM
I think the most valuable thing to model would be ArP vs AP increase per itemization points, where their equilibrium point is, and at what point this is attainable.

Unfortunately, you can't just stack ArP and neglect AP, because as you lose attack power, the usefulness of ArP decreases (what good is removing the bosses armor if your unmitigated dps is only 500?).

I suspect this would take some heavy-duty spreadsheetage to get an accurate model.

Crimsonstorm
07-18-2008, 10:51 AM
Faerie Fire is another 610 armor reduction.

High armor boss = 7700 armor. Low armor boss = 6200
2600 from sunder, 800 CoR, 610 Ferie Fire, 840 from executioner proc = 4850 reduction, reducting the boss to: 2850 (19.4%) high armor, 1350 (11.1%) low armor.

For the low armor boss, say you were doing 2000 dps pre-mitigation, so youre doing 1778. Then 1350 armor penetration (194 itemization points) is worth +222 dps. More than 1 dps per itemization point spend on ArP! You get less than 1 dps from +1Str even at high itemization levels. Its very efficient.

ebs2002
07-18-2008, 11:14 AM
Just curious, where did you get 194 itemization points? I thought it was 7arp = 1item point, barring any weird rounding issue (1/7 to two decimal places is 0.14).

1350/7 = 192.8
1350*.14 = 189
1350*.15 = 202.5

Was that just a typo, or do I have it wrong?

Crimsonstorm
07-18-2008, 12:29 PM
194 was a typo of 193. (Which was rounded up from 192.8). Its in that area.

shiz98
07-18-2008, 01:13 PM
Eventually I want to turn this into a guide where you can measure how armor penetration can lead to higher dps per 70 armor penetration than 20 attack power.
To do this you need a rough amount of AP per DPS. I know I've seen this floating out there for different specs - linky? I can put together a nice graph if I have that info.

Kazeyonoma
07-21-2008, 04:47 PM
I'll try to find the info shiz.

byechee
07-22-2008, 10:37 AM
Faerie Fire is another 610 armor reduction.

High armor boss = 7700 armor. Low armor boss = 6200
2600 from sunder, 800 CoR, 610 Ferie Fire, 840 from executioner proc = 4850 reduction, reducting the boss to: 2850 (19.4%) high armor, 1350 (11.1%) low armor.

For the low armor boss, say you were doing 2000 dps pre-mitigation, so youre doing 1778. Then 1350 armor penetration (194 itemization points) is worth +222 dps. More than 1 dps per itemization point spend on ArP! You get less than 1 dps from +1Str even at high itemization levels. Its very efficient.

faerie fire's armor reduction stacks with sunder?

Kazeyonoma
07-22-2008, 11:03 AM
that's what I was thinking but didn't wanna say anything, since i'm really scatterbrained right now.

Corbusier
07-22-2008, 11:16 AM
faerie fire's armor reduction stacks with sunder?

Yes.

byechee
07-22-2008, 11:25 AM
good thing we have a boomkin then.

Crimsonstorm
07-22-2008, 02:35 PM
Sunder, Curse of Recklessness, and Faerie Fire all stack.

Sunder and a rogue's Expose armor do not stack together, the higher one replaces the other. (Expose armor would also stack with CoR or Faerie Fire).

The maximum armor penetration you can get before gear would be 2/2 Imp Expose armor (3075), CoR (800), Faerie Fire (610) = 4485 ArP.

Low armor boss is 6200 Armor, high armor is 7700. (Only bosses lower than that are Shade of Aran who has very low armor and phase 1 of Reliquary of Souls which has 0).

Kazeyonoma
07-22-2008, 02:36 PM
Thanks, good to know Crimson.

Leytur
07-23-2008, 05:11 AM
I posed this question on BRK's forums.

My hunter has vindicator's chain bracers with 8 hit and the 24 AP enchant.

Then in MgT bracers of the forest stalker drop.

Overall, I think the PVP bracers are better. But not by a ton. And I can easily see the blue excelling in a specific niche. I just don't know what it is.

Could someone with ignore armor knowledge maybe use this comparison as an example problem to solve?

loquatious
07-23-2008, 07:40 AM
I would love some way to effectively compare DPS gains from AP vs ArP

Corbusier
07-23-2008, 09:06 AM
I would love some way to effectively compare DPS gains from AP vs ArP

Spreadsheets. ArP vs AP isn't a constant value, since AP is a static DPS boost while ArP is a percentage increase. The relative value of Str:ArP can range from 10ArP = 1 Str to nearly 5ArP = 1 Str, depending on your overall gear. A typical median would be 7 ArP = 1 Str.

ebs2002
07-23-2008, 09:36 AM
If you use the Fury DPS spreadsheet found on Elitist Jerks, they have a section at the bottom that values each dps stat for upgrades. Str may be 1, Arp may be 14, and crit may be 0.89. And if your gear changes, the values change.

Very useful

Kazeyonoma
07-23-2008, 09:57 AM
You're gonna have to show me how to use this in shoutbox ebs, and link me the spreadsheet? I'd like to do some testing of my own.

Kazeyonoma
08-19-2008, 05:00 PM
I found a good site that happened to be run by my current guild leader (by chance lol) and it helps map out quite nicely the effects of Armor Penetration. I think it's worth it to post here. I'll ask him for permission.