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ebs2002
07-14-2008, 10:44 AM
So I found a druid who's pretty serious about arena'ing now, and we've done a lot of matches over the weekend (around 50 or so). He's gotten much better with finding time to drink, and I've gotten better at hurting mages with spellreflect, charging instead of intercepting when I can, and saving my intercept for right after he blinks. However, we're still noticing a few problems that we're having:

Double DPS: No issues, unless it's a mage/rogue who gets the jump on him. As soon as we smell mage/rogue or rogue/rogue, he cures poison on himself and switches to bear to survive the initial attack. Sometimes he still gets gibbed in the first few minutes, but if I can get an early fear off on the rogue(s) he's usually good.

Warlock+Rogue. Normally, if there's a warlock I'm on the warlock, and if there's a rogue I'm on the rogue. When there's a lock/rogue, I have no idea what we should be doing. I stick on the rogue and my druid gets feared and I die. I stick on the warlock and the rogue kills me. What's a good strategy for this team?

Warrior+Shaman, Sub. Rogue+Shaman: we're just not able to get the kills off. This may be a gearing question, but normally what we do is: have me damage the DPS down until he's low, then have my druid try to CC the shammy out of his heals. With a warrior this works, unless he's been raping my druid; against a rogue, cheat death keeps him alive long enough to get a heal off. We can't kill the shammy first using our normal techniques.

Rogue+Paladin: Same issue; when the rogue gets low, he cheats death, and we wind up losing the mana war. If I switch to the paladin, the rogue kills my druid. The paladin keeps distance so switching back and forth to interrupt and then kill the rogue is rarely an option...or maybe I'm just not doing it right.

General CC issues: I'm not entirely convinced that my druid is CCing to the best of his ability. He usually picks one target and CCs it, and rarely roots casters. I think that if a melee is running away from me and he roots the healer, I can get a kill off on the DPS...and if he's rooting the healer, then the diminishing returns on root reset..is this correct? Should he be switching his root/cyclone targets back and forth?

Lastly, chain-sheeping mages: Sometimes I get the spell reflect off on time, but usually I don't, and the diminishing returns on sheep seem completely un-noticable. Am I just too slow on the reflect and should consider making my hotkey easier to hit (right now, it's an alt+4, where 4 is my MS key)...or is there an easier way to deal with this?


Man, that's a lot of questions...I know that some matchups are just harder for us (rog/mag is supposed to be the anti-war/dru, right?). But surely there's something we can do to allow us to get out of the mid-1500s. Any pointers?

Kazeyonoma
07-14-2008, 11:05 AM
double dps you two just play defensively, put on shield and just work em down slowly, you seem fine in that department.

warlock rogue is tough but what you should do is kill the warlock and have your druid cyclone the rogue. If he can keep the rogue off of you you win, if you get to 60% put on a shield asap and intervene to your druid, at 60% if you don't shield up rogue can put you into a stun lock and the lock can dot you up causing lots of pain while you sit around dying. Definitely kill warlock first though while your druid controls the rogue. If the warlock pet is causing your druid trouble kill it fast, no healer = dead pet. Save trinket for Blind. NO other reason to use it ever. EVER. in this matchup.

War sham is gonna be tough of you, It's my current team and we blow up the druid, your best bet is to let the warrior/sham get a false sense of gib (normally 5 sunders on druid = bloodlust) at that moment he needs to kill your druid or they are gonna have a ton of trouble. What you need to do at that point is make sure you kill ANY grounding totems, if he doesn't have those your druid can cc the warrior, hell NS a cyclone if he needs to, but basically stall the warrior until BLust goes away (Heroism for Allies of course), once that's over the sunders should fall off too, and now the shaman's lower in mana, and they've lost their gib opportunity, have druid drink, and you keep pressure on the warrior, the shaman won't be able to drink because of this and if you don't hit the shaman, water shield will never fire off. Sunder up the warrior to win in the dps race, and when he gets to about 60-40% and you're at full rage fully sundered, call your druid to lock the shaman, again make sure there's no grounding totems before he starts, and go ahead and chain cyclone him while you gib the warrior. If your druid is spec'd correctly he'll have insect swarm as well (11/11/39) keeping this on the warrior is huge, he'll have 2% more miss than you, another thing that swings in your dps favor, AND the dot is fairly damaging, especially during the cc lock on the shaman your druid should help you burst inbetween cyclone casts, wrath spam, insect swarm, moonfire spam, whatever it takes, when you get that opportunity, that warrior needs to die.

Rogue/Shaman, Not exactly sure but with both of you guys having tons of armor just play defensively, sunder up the rogue, and put pressure on the rogue while shaman has to heal, he shouldn't be able to kill you at all if you board at 60% everytime, and your druid has drinking advantage, just keep rogue hamstrung so druid can escape to drink often, Cyclone cc lock on the shaman when the rogue gets low, and it's even more important to have your druid help dps during this period because you might execute to proc his cheatdeath which'll leave you with low rage, and unable to kill the rogue, so dots or spells can finish the job. Similar to war/sham makeup, survive the bloodlust.

rogue/pally: make the pally bubble early, do this by getting a cc lock on the pally while you work on the rogue, i dunno if sundering is gonna help but maybe get 5 sunders up first then get the cc lock going, then work on the rogue, if you do it right (make sure he stays snared piercing howl is your friend against dodging rogues) the rogue will get low and then have your druid cc lock the rogue in cyclone thus preventing heals, while you beat on the paladin a bit just to get him panic'd/running/wasting mana. Then when the rogue breaks out, go back to cc'ing the paladin and working on the rogue, the rogue should be low at this point and the paladin can't heal, he'll bubble out of the cyclone or trinket, just keep repeating this till the paladin can't break the cyclone cc anymore and you finish the rogue with help from your druid. You're druid really shouldn't die to a rogue without help. have him keep cleanse poison on himself and hots before he goes into bear form and then just have him tank the stupid thing. You can help him by keeping the rogue snared, demo shouting, tclapping, intercepting, disarming (from behind!), etc.

Druid cc's are powerful but short, you gotta know who and when to use what cc's, I can't really say though, my druid is amazing and does all the hard work while i just pwn faces.

chain sheeping mages are tough but there will eventually be a period of diminishing returns, early on in matches if they sheep you just wait it out, break if they nearly kill your druid but if not, why waste the trinket, eventually you get out, lay the smack down, kill mage pets first always, it hurts them a lot, and the pet dies to 3-5 swings. Seriously, that pet puts out some serious damage, and helps control you more, if you beat it down most mages don't control their pets enough to frost nova you and send the pet walking away, you should get enough time to pwn its face and then get back on the mage, if he sheeps you and you can't get the reflect off but you think you can pressure him into an iceblock or even a kill trinket out of full duration sheeps, if he casts another one so be it at least its only half the duration. At this point he's panicing.

rogue/mage is very anti-war/dru but when played right you can win a lot of them, i had to blow through probably 15 of that matchup to get 2k last season.

Once you know it's probably rogue/mage just immediately put on a shield, no reason not to, they're gonna try to burst you to get your druid out, so put on your shield and play defensively, wait for the sight buffs to appear. Have your druid just put up cleanse poison and full hots on himself then you, then go bear form, and try to find them, if they don't get on you at all since your druid is out and about instead of stealthed, put on 2 hander and beat on the mage hard, work him interrupt poly's, kill his pet, and keep piercing howling the rogue and demoshouting him. Your druid should be able to LOS the mage if you're beating on the mage, and a howl will keep the rogue relatively off him (bear form makes the rogue not as tough either).

ebs2002
07-14-2008, 11:30 AM
Kaz, thanks for all the tips.

Big things I learned (for others who didn't want to read through the whole thing):
- When you see someone casting a big heal on a target, cycloning the target makes them lose their heal. Awesome.
- Shield it up against bursting teams. Let them blow their wad, then mop up.
- Addendum to above: 60% is the target vs rogues. Learn it, live it, love it.
- Try not to execute into a cheat-death proc. Have druid dot em up, save rage for overpower.
- Kill mage pet at a higher priority.
- Kill felhound against most warlock matchups (I knew this and have been doing it, but still helps)
- Use sunder more often than I have been (I always used it against Disc Priests, holy pallys and opposing warriors, but almost never against rogues or other classes).
- Opposing shammys will time bloodlust with a fully-sundered target
- More communication with the druid about when to CC-lock a target. "Rogue's sundered up, CC lock the shammy in 3...2...1...go". We rarely have been doing this.
- My druid needs to get better at surviving rogues. Cleanse poison, load up with hots, switch to bear form, and all he needs from me is a piercing howl/hamstring.

Awesome tips...wish I knew my druid partner's email address so I could send this along to him :)

Kazeyonoma
07-14-2008, 01:35 PM
haha, you'll talk to him soon enough, no worries.

To be honest you want to sunder "most" things you're killing, but I suppose a rogue isn't necessarily always good, but it doesn't hurt if you're having trouble killing him, it does get annoying cuz of their high dodge so make sure you try to stay behind em when sundering. Disc Priests, holy pallies, and warriors are definite sunder targets, but so should druids, shamans, and warlocks.

Glad it was helpful, try these out in actual arena and tell me how much it's helped.

Bloodwraith
07-14-2008, 03:02 PM
Druid/Warrior (Druid PoV) Strategy - Arena Junkies (http://www.arenajunkies.com/strategy/2v2/Dru_War_2/)
Druid/Warrior Strategy - Arena Junkies (http://www.arenajunkies.com/strategy/2v2/Dru_War/)

Warlock/Rogue:


This is tough. Like all Rogue/DPS teams. This team is usually going to try to Fear you and then gib your Warrior, because a Fear/Fear/Fear/Silence(or stun)/Deathcoil/Blind/Sap combo is more than enough for them to kill your Warrior. Here, your Warrior is going to sit on the Warlock to prevent the Fear casts, while doing his best to keep the Rogue Hamstrung and off you. Between Pummel and LOSing the Fears, you really shouldn't be getting Feared to give them their gib window to burst your Warrior. Your Warrior's health is is below 60-70%, he has a shield on and is Spell Reflecting(unless the Lock is about to die), and 2her busting on the warlock if he's full/hotted/abolished. The Rogue is usually a more tempting target than a soul link Warlock, but once again, with all the tricks Rogues have they won't die before you or your Warrior does. Stay on the Lock, don't get feared, and eventually the Lock will die. Beware their switch to you when you're out of cooldowns, as well.

If the Rogue is on your Warrior(most matches):
The Fight generally starts with your Warrior charging the Lock. Stay back as long as you can, usually the Rogue will open on your Lock. If he doesn't, wait till about 75%, then Rejuv yourself first (in case the Rogue opens on you), then hot the Warrior. When the Rogue opens on your Warrior, abolish him immediately and HoT him up, making sure to run for max distance. If you can, get a Cyclone or Root on the Rogue, he'll break it, but it's a cooldown that he's forced to spend. Be careful though, the Felhunter can Silence you which can be the end of you. Most matches I don't cast a single spell unless I KNOW I won't be CSed, The risk of getting silenced outweighs the few seconds of CC/Cooldown use. The Warrior will be pounding on the Warlock if he has HoTs and Abolish, and Shielding /Spell Reflecting if he drops low. (He can still beat on the Lock with One Hander).

Make sure to Pummel the Fears, and keep Hamstring up on both the Rogue and the Warlock. Your job is to LOS the Fears he can't Pummel, and to make sure you're constantly moving away to stay at max range. Eventually, the Warlock will probably get a Fear off, but DON'T TRINKET THIS UNLESS YOUR WARRIOR WILL DIE. Once you're Feared, the Rogue will start sprinting over to Blind you, and if you trinket the Fear and get Blinded/Sapped, it's pretty much GG. Save your trinket for the Blind, because getting caught in a Blind->Sap->Silence-Deathcoil combo is almost a guaranteed loss. Once the Rogue starts running, have your Warrior Intercept him and keep Hamstring up, and Piercing Howl the Imp Sprints/Vanishes.
Keep your distance at max range, always trying to stay at max range, and pillar humping if you can't get far away, and make sure to keep a Lifebloom stack/Rejuv/Abolish up. The Lock should die soon, and then simply the Rogue. If the Rogue burns all his cooldowns and the lock still has a decent amount of HP, your Warrior can intercept to him to quickly dispatch him, because rogues with no tricks die very, very fast to a warrior. Once one of them dies, kill the other and win.

If the rogue opens on you(Rare)The Warlock will be tanking while the Rogue looks for you, and the Rogue will get the opener because of Paranoia. Again, When you pop to heal your Warrior, hot yourself first in case he pops on you. The Rogue will lock you down while the Warlock dots you and your Warrior up. Have the Warrior Intervene to you, Disarm/Hamstring the Rogue, then Intercept back to the Warlock. Because the Rogue isn't pouring DPS into the Warrior, your war can go to town on the Warlock as long as he gets HoTs to keep him above 60-70% health. Keep abolish up on yourself along with HoTs, and do your best to pillar kite the Rogue while your Warrior shoves his two hander down the Warlock's throat. Keep yourself alive, your Warrior should Intervene whenever he can to Hamstring the Rogue, then Intercept back to the Lock.
Again, if the Rogue is out of tricks when the Lock is alive and at decent health, consider swapping to quickly kill him.

Notes:
The Shadow sight debuff will prevent blinds and saps. Pick it up if you can.
When they're on you, Consider having your warrior use his 2her in defensive stance when pummel is on cooldown, so he takes less damage.
Like Mage/Rogue, abolish is HUGE. Make sure to keep it up whenever you can.
Felguard locks do a lot of damage, but die faster. The Stun sucks, but you can cast freely without getting spell locked. The Match is different, you die faster, but so does their lock.
Always keep 10 rage for a piercing howl. Every time they sprint or vanish, howl. This can prevent

Warrior/Shaman


You have the big advantage here, but they can get lucky with some WF/Heroism crits and actually manage to gib one of you down.

You should be on that other Warrior nonstop with the CC, you can rotate Roots and Cyclone almost endlessly, so that other Warrior should be controlled the entire fight. Make sure to pop totems with rank 1 Moonfire, but don't put yourself in a compromising position just to pop a totem.

Keep the Warrior CC'ed, and do your best to stay alive. The amount of burst that a WF'ed Warrior + NSCL Resto Shaman can put out is decent, so if your Warrior ever gets to around 50%, he needs to put on a shield to eliminate the gib from a lucky WF proc.

You have a big advantage here, you should be able to out mana the Shaman soon enough, and collect your points.

Kaz basicaly answered everything though, just wanted to let you know what guides said on these comps. Good luck! :D

ebs2002
07-14-2008, 03:27 PM
Yeah, I saw the guides, but the problem with a lot of them is that the good one is written from the druid's perspective, and the one from the warrior's perspective just isn't nearly as good. They just say "kill X first, then Y. This is easy", then all the comments say it's much more difficult.

I was looking for a warrior's (ie, Kaz's, but posted publicly so other's could read) perspective :)

Kazeyonoma
07-14-2008, 03:59 PM
;P

ebs2002
07-22-2008, 11:48 AM
Well, I told my partner to read up, and read up he did not do :-p Hopefully he's reading this post now!

We didn't do that well, but we met up against a number of difficult matchups (Dru/Hunter being one of the main ones. I know the strategies to help with this, keep my druid in bear form and only pop out to quick heal, have him eat traps with a feral charge when I'm scattershot, and if i'm rooted run to me so I can hit the scorpion...however, he didn't know any of this and I just did a lot of yelling).

We dropped from 1550 to 1510 and called it after going 4-7 so he could do a little more reading. Our other losses were against:
- war/shm twice (one on Blade's Edge, where they opened on me and switched to him, dropped him in a matter of seconds with some lucky WF/Bloodlust/swordprocs). I also got a lucky win against a war/shm (yeah, we faced that matchup 3-friggin times), where I got the warrior to 30%, intercepted the shaman to interrupt his heal, then swordproc+execute on the warrior for the win. I probably shouldn't have won that fight :p
- a mag/pal where he died right as the pal died and the mage had plenty of mana to finish me off when I was at 3k health
- a rog/dru where he opened on the druid, then got his ass kicked by the rogue while the druid ran off and chain CC'd me while the rogue wtfpwnt him
- a priest/rog where the priest chain-smited me for 1k while he got feared/kidney/blind-without-trinket (I started yelling when he told me his trinket was down when he was blinded...I doubt he'll make that mistake again :p)
- some other double-dps team (hunter/priest or hunter/mage maybe) that just wtfpwnt me...druid spammed heals, i had shield equipped, and he just couldn't keep me up. I suggested against double dps teams to try to open with a cyclone so we can get some damage/heals in.

I made my share of mistakes too, mostly transitioning between my sword/board, spell reflect macro, and two-hander. I hotkeyed my sword/board to toggle on/off with F8, but my spell reflect macro is the /equip shield, /cast spell reflection, and equips sword when i hold in ctrl..and sometimes i got caught with the wrong weapon on.

Lastly, I'm trying to decide if it's worth going maces (for me, that requires a bit of farming, or a lucky World Breaker drop from FLK). I noticed that with swordspec, I wreck other warriors who are mace specced and it makes the mirror match a free win most of the time. But I'd imagine that with maces, our burst survival would improve and he'd find more opportunities to drink.

Bloodwraith
07-22-2008, 02:02 PM
We didn't do that well, but we met up against a number of difficult matchups (Dru/Hunter being one of the main ones. I know the strategies to help with this, keep my druid in bear form and only pop out to quick heal, have him eat traps with a feral charge when I'm scattershot, and if i'm rooted run to me so I can hit the scorpion...however, he didn't know any of this and I just did a lot of yelling).

- a mag/pal where he died right as the pal died and the mage had plenty of mana to finish me off when I was at 3k health

- a rog/dru where he opened on the druid, then got his ass kicked by the rogue while the druid ran off and chain CC'd me while the rogue wtfpwnt him

- a priest/rog where the priest chain-smited me for 1k while he got feared/kidney/blind-without-trinket (I started yelling when he told me his trinket was down when he was blinded...I doubt he'll make that mistake again :p)

- some other double-dps team (hunter/priest or hunter/mage maybe) that just wtfpwnt me...druid spammed heals, i had shield equipped, and he just couldn't keep me up. I suggested against double dps teams to try to open with a cyclone so we can get some damage/heals in.

Lastly, I'm trying to decide if it's worth going maces (for me, that requires a bit of farming, or a lucky World Breaker drop from FLK). I noticed that with swordspec, I wreck other warriors who are mace specced and it makes the mirror match a free win most of the time. But I'd imagine that with maces, our burst survival would improve and he'd find more opportunities to drink.

Also with pets you can challenging shout or taunt them off your druid if need be.

Mage/pally is an annoying comp. Sheeps/iceblock/bubbles. =\

With druid rogue this is what I usually do:

Once I find that it's double stealth, I usually switch to zerk to bait a sap, once it's there I hit zerker rage/bloodrage/demo shout as fast as I can to catch them. I wouldn't recommend your druid to pop our first, it's jsut asking for him to get stunlocked by the rogue in kitty/caster form. If you can live through the initial stuns I usually try to go on rogue (unless evasion is on) to keep him off my druid. When my druid gets away to drink, I go sit on the other druid and try to keep the rogue in combat and near me.

For priest/rogue your druid should avoid the priest at all costs, if he got feared he was too close. A priest can cause a lot of trouble with mana burns. If he can avoid that, save trinket for blind to avoid a blind/sap combo while the priest smites you to death.

As for Hunter/Mage, you can LOS this team pretty easily. Run out, bait them. Sword and board already on. If the hunter is BM, let him pop his CD's then intervene back to your partner and just LOS them.

Maces: the stun is great, can stun at a clutch moment and stop that cyclone so you can kill the opposing druid. You win 1v1 against mace warriors probably because you are doing more damage, while they stun you proccing second wind repeatedly.

byechee
07-22-2008, 02:06 PM
if your druid can't last through a cheap shot kidney shot combo, he doesn't have enough gear to play the competition you're facing. in this case the war needs to help the druid out as much as he can with intercept/intervene/disarm/fear.

ebs2002
07-22-2008, 02:45 PM
It was the fact that he used his trinket on something that wasn't blind, and then got blinded. He's actually pretty well geared (The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Earthen+Ring&n=Tecumseh)).

Rogues just give him problems with stunlocks that he usually trinkets out of, and he sometimes gets tunnel vision and focuses too much on trying to run away or root and less on exploiting the team's weaknesses (keep cleanse poison up vs rogues, feral charge a caster to get away from the rogue, staying in bear form).

What he has been doing sometimes vs double stealth, or mage+stealth, is immediately popping out and staying in bear form (his logic being that if he's stealthed and the rogue finds him, he gets opened up on in a squishy kitty form. He expects the rogue to find him, so he pops out).

I think this would be less of an issue if I were mace-specced; i get a proc on the rogue early and he has plenty of time to get away.

We do need to work on being more defensive though; I used to run war/rog and got us up to 1650 in S3 as a sword-spec. Crazy burst. Doesn't work that way with a druid, although unfortunately swords scream offensive, not defensive.

Maybe I'll get lucky and World Breaker will drop! If not, are there any other alternatives to the S2 mace available to me? I'm an armorsmith, so I can't craft anything sexy :(

Kazeyonoma
07-22-2008, 03:04 PM
double stealth means double dps so yeh it's smart to go ahead and pop into bear but AFTER he puts up cleanse poison and hots both of you up first (himself first then you) then go bear and run around looking for the rogue. As for other mace alternatives... There's always Torch =P

ebs2002
07-23-2008, 09:03 AM
Not in BT yet, can't get torch.

World Breaker, though....mmmmmm.....

Bloodwraith
07-23-2008, 09:26 AM
double stealth means double dps so yeh it's smart to go ahead and pop into bear but AFTER he puts up cleanse poison and hots both of you up first (himself first then you) then go bear and run around looking for the rogue. As for other mace alternatives... There's always Torch =P

Rogue/druid is double stealth

ebs2002
07-23-2008, 09:42 AM
Double Stealth:

Rog+Rog
Rog+Dru
Rog+Mag
Dru+Dru
Dru+Mag
Mag+Mag

Also, nightelves. At one point, it was common for 2v2s to have their nightelves stay in stealth and wait out short-term buffs (like battle/commanding shout). That doesn't happen that much anymore, but that's probably because they realize that a warrior detecting them and getting the jump on them is bad :p

Kazeyonoma
07-23-2008, 10:19 AM
In either case, rogue/dru you'll have to play more defensively,

I normally kodocamped my druid (he goes stealth kitty and hits under my kodo, that way the rogue saps me, and my druid can pop him out, then i break it with zerker rage, and proceed beat down on rogue, druid pops out ot heal rogue, my druid cyclone locks him, i rip rogue a new one, druid gets dr, comes to save rogue, druid puts up cyclone lock on rogue, i work on druid, druid runs away, i intervene to my druid, he stops the lock, i finish off rogue. gg

bobarossa
07-29-2008, 04:29 AM
If you suspect a rogue is about your druid pretty much should always go bear, HOTing and abolishing himself first if he knows the rogue wont be able to open on him before he gets into bear. Don't be afraid to pop bloodrage and demo shout immediately (IMMEDIATELY) after to try and catch the rogue out of stealth. Intercept rogues as often as possible if they're on your druid and apply lots and lots of hamstring.

If the rogue is with a warlock what you do should depend on what they do. To put it simply, if they are DPSing you, you want to be on the warlock, if they go on your druid, keep hamstring on both and attack the rogue.

Get a mace if you're doing 2s. If you ran with a shaman sword would be semi justifiable, but otherwise those random stuns are WAY too good to pass up. I can't begin to count the number of times I'm on a druid and I pummel a cyclone then when they cast another mace stun procs at the last second. Or how often I save my druids ass with some lucky mace stuns. Actually, it procs so much I honestly shouldn't use the word lucky in that statement. It also makes you able to protect your druid better. Spamstring a rogue and they get rooted or stunnedevery other hit pretty much.