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Korlong
07-11-2008, 11:19 AM
Behold: 25/46/0 (http://www.mmo-champion.com/talent/?warrior=35000301332500000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000005050005505012050120501310)

Am I right or am I right?

I don't think Titan Grip is going to work out at all as Blizzard intends it to.

Discuss.

ebs2002
07-11-2008, 12:34 PM
I'd move one point out of Imp Whirlwind to more threat reduction.

And I'm not sure if the extra 5% crit and 1% damage from 2h spec is worth the 7-10% threat reduction and 8% attack speed increase (well, from 1.28 to 1.2 = 6.25% haste).

I popped in -5 poleaxe spec, -1 2h specialty, and -1 imp ww for +3 furious resolve and +4 titan's grip.

I guess it depends on how threat-capped you are.

But it's a good idea to consider!

Mediumwell
07-11-2008, 01:10 PM
I know this is a very early leak of the talent trees, but...

Does anyone else think that the new fury talents are completely stupid?

Intensify Rage...when is rage generated from taking damage ever going to be important enough to put talent points into?

Furious Resolve...yay we got more threat reduction!! why didnt they just buff the imp berserker talent and give us something else? Do we really need two threat reducing talents? The stamina is a bonus, but when has stamina ever been a talent worthy stat for raid melee classes?

Bloodsurge...is this a typo? Did they really put ANOTHER slam talent on the fury tree? Unless they are doing something drastically different with slam in the expansion I don't see how this crap is even associated with being fury.

Titan's Grip...awesome idea, the only one that I really like.

Heroic Leap...sigh. While the idea sounds cool in theory, and it could be really fun to use..How would this be practical in a raiding situation on raid bosses?

Turmentus
07-11-2008, 01:16 PM
Bloodsurge...is this a typo? Did they really put ANOTHER slam talent on the fury tree? Unless they are doing something drastically different with slam in the expansion I don't see how this crap is even associated with being fury.


I thought the same thing when I looked at the trees last night. But I wonder if a tweak to slam paired with titan's grip would make it a more viable option? Though, that's just a really poor guess at trying to justify why.

Honorshammer
07-11-2008, 01:31 PM
I know this is a very early leak of the talent trees, but...

Bloodsurge...is this a typo? Did they really put ANOTHER slam talent on the fury tree? Unless they are doing something drastically different with slam in the expansion I don't see how this crap is even associated with being fury.

Heroic Leap...sigh. While the idea sounds cool in theory, and it could be really fun to use..How would this be practical in a raiding situation on raid bosses?


Bloodsurge basically turns Slam into an instant attack, which I think would actually entice Fury Warriors to put Slam on their action bars.

Places that leap to mind of where a Fury Warrior could use Heroic Leap in current Raids:

Morogrim Tidewalker
Mount Hjyal Trash
Solarian
Hydross The Unstable
DragonHawk
Illhoof
Nightbane
Various Trash (Moroes, Akama, Solarian, etc)

Mediumwell
07-11-2008, 04:45 PM
Bloodsurge basically turns Slam into an instant attack, which I think would actually entice Fury Warriors to put Slam on their action bars.


I was a little confused on the whole slam thing...so maxed out your bt crits cause your slam swing timer to be 0. But the stupid thing still has a cast time, and to lower the cast time you'd have to take vital points out of something else. So they are basically polishing a turd.

As far as Heroic Leap is concerned..it's a top tier talent that's going to be usable on trash. It's giving a melee dps class an AoE. Why bother? Single target damage is our forte (sp?). Why give us a mediocre (at best) AoE rather than making us more elite on single targets. Have you seen the combat top tier talent for rogues? Thats the kind of pizazz I was hoping for for us. They get an AoE that can do all of that dmg to a single target.

This is the best I could come up with Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=LA0hzNbZVx0VxxRVuotox)

Korlong
07-11-2008, 07:37 PM
Ah, but with 1/5 Titan's Grip, a 3.7 speed weapon becomes a 4.73 speed weapon. Them's some massive slams.

I think you'll find that paired with Bloodsurge for instant slams, the crit (and bonus crit damage) from 5/5 poleaxe specialization will beat out two-handed weapon specialization.

You're going to want 2/2 Improved Whirlwind because it will be your primary attack. With two two-handers, Whirlwind's attack power to damage conversion rate is 0.383 - almost as much as Bloodthirst - plus you get 1.625x two-handed weapon damage on top of it!

Ukyo
07-12-2008, 04:28 AM
Ah, but with 1/5 Titan's Grip, a 3.7 speed weapon becomes a 4.73 speed weapon. Them's some massive slams.


You're assuming that blizzard won't normalize Slam, but who knows, it actually might work =O

And about Heroic Leap and Furious Resolve, those are "PvP" Skills, that is blizzard way of fixing stuff up, they add something totally worthless and pair it with something that works :P

phaze
07-12-2008, 06:35 AM
I was a little confused on the whole slam thing...so maxed out your bt crits cause your slam swing timer to be 0. But the stupid thing still has a cast time, and to lower the cast time you'd have to take vital points out of something else. So they are basically polishing a turd.

It's an extra, low-rage, non-normalized instant when you crit with BT; that's hot. ;)



Ah, but with 1/5 Titan's Grip, a 3.7 speed weapon becomes a 4.73 speed weapon. Them's some massive slams.

Slam uses base weapon speed, and ignores Haste/Slow effects in its calc. I'm betting that the slower swings from Titan's Grip are just for regulating the white damage, and won't affect specials.

Korlong
07-12-2008, 04:08 PM
Now that I think about it, you're probably right about slam sticking with the base weapon speed.

Then again, I believe the "slow" on Titan's Grip to be a singularly unique modifier, as it is there to regulate the weapon damage, not white damage as a whole. Why? Because that's the only configuration that makes sense.

I think you will find swing damage will be calcualted as:
rand(weapon_min, weapon_max) + (speed * 1.2 * AP / 14)

Muffin Man
07-13-2008, 01:22 AM
I'm guessing the speed modifier for titan's grip is gonna be negative haste, like thunderclap is. So the top end/bottom end damage is going to stay the same, exactly like with haste effects.

So in actuality dps will go down. Which is probably a balancing thing to keep it from being totally broken.

shiz98
07-13-2008, 12:28 PM
And about Heroic Leap and Furious Resolve, those are "PvP" Skills, that is blizzard way of fixing stuff up, they add something totally worthless and pair it with something that works :P
And Blink is also a PvP skill with no application in PvE.

It's a good skill for any class in PvE, and much more so for melee. The fact that it does damage is icing on the cake.

ebs2002
07-14-2008, 10:04 AM
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=LG0IzhbZVV0VhgRVubxst)

Dual-Wielding Slam build with Impale.

Since you're dual wielding slow weapons, keep the weapons at the same speed (ie, both 3.5spd). Now, you can do an imp slam build, with bloodthirst crits giving you free instant-slams. You still have bloodthirst and rampage (although rampage isn't as strong now, since you're attacking so slow, it will take longer to get up and letting it fall off will be pretty detrimental). I went with the leap-o-death and imp WW over a 4th point in Imp Dual Wield, only because I could see LOD being very useful in different raid situations, and because WW is so strong when dual wielding 2h'ers (I overlooked this at first).

Me likey this spec :)

Korlong
07-14-2008, 11:49 AM
I'm guessing the speed modifier for titan's grip is gonna be negative haste, like thunderclap is. So the top end/bottom end damage is going to stay the same, exactly like with haste effects.

So in actuality dps will go down. Which is probably a balancing thing to keep it from being totally broken.

This seems highly unlikely, as if this is the case then it general it will probably be better to stick with one-handed weapons, as applying negative haste affecting white damage (beyond weapon damage) would almost completely negate the benefits of Titan's Grip. Most people underestimate the amount of white damage generated by Fury as they don't factor Heroic Strike in, whereas in reality, Heroic Strike would be heavily penalized by this change.

You can do some interesting things without Titan's Grip anyways, such as a 17/46/8 (http://www.mmo-champion.com/talent/?warrior=35000301302000000000000000002033000000000 0000000000000005050005505012051120501300)build for +15% crit to Heroic Strike (remembering that the new rank of Heroic Strike gets something ridiculous like +450 damage), or a 25/46/0 (http://www.mmo-champion.com/talent/?warrior=35003301302500000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000005050005505012051120501300) build for Axe Specialization.

Kind of splitting off on a tangent here, I think there are three things that we can observe looking at the talent information available to us at this time:

- Provided Bloodsurge changes Slam to work as an instant attack (so that it does not reset the swing timer), 3/3 Bloodsurge is going to be an essential build component, regardless of whether or not the build includes Titan's Grip.
- Poleaxe Specialization is now hands-down the best weapon specialization for PvE. It would be the best weapon specialization for PvE even if Sword Specialization didn't have a hidden cooldown to artificially reduce its proc rate, so this isn't open to debate.
- Titan's Grip's usefulness is going to largely depend on the implementation of the negative haste, and whether or not it affects white damage from attack power.

ebs2002
07-14-2008, 12:05 PM
Rage generation using 5/5 titan's grip:

Compare our rage generation to that of an MS-pve spec: we get 20% less rage from our mainhand due to 20% slow effect, plus 50% of that from our offhand, or (.8*x + .5*.8*x = 1.2x). We're getting 1.2x the rage from white attacks. I'd venture to say that a fury warrior's increased attack power from Imp Berserker and Rampage will offset the lost rage from miss chances; the downside being that miss chances = possible rage starvation at 4.2+ attack speeds.

Now, for something completely different: The S4 polearm has a speed of 2.2. That means an attack speed of 2.64; we're now at the same speed we were at with the s4 one-handers, only with a higher average damage, and more dps stats.

Kazeyonoma
07-14-2008, 01:38 PM
and with the new uber poleaxe specialization.

Crimsonstorm
07-14-2008, 03:15 PM
While this is the highest personal dps spec, 32/39/0 probably provides much greater raid dps, with Blood Frenzy.

I'm pretty sure that titan grip in its current form is terrible.

I think Blizz is going backwards...not only will dps warriors not take their 50 point talents for PvE, they wont even take their 40 point talents anymore.

Blood frenzy should NOT be in the PvP tree, it should be in the PvE dps tree. Its raid buff is too strong. The only way a dps warrior can get away with not having it is if another dps warrior is in the raid and has it. We should have 3 trees of PvP, PvE dps, PvE tanking. Not one tree of PvP and PvEdps+raid buff, and a crappy tree that you only use if youre the SECOND dps warrior in the raid.

Crimsonstorm
07-14-2008, 03:16 PM
and with the new uber poleaxe specialization.

This is very true. Axe > Sword now. for PvE. And in PvP the debate is probably Mace vs Axe.

Crimsonstorm
07-14-2008, 03:18 PM
Also, 17/46/8 as mentioned is a great hybrid dps/tank spec. Its probably almost as much dps as 25/46, however when tanking it has 15% crit for heroic strike and TM for more bloodthirst threat.

ebs2002
07-14-2008, 03:25 PM
Blood frenzy should NOT be in the PvP tree, it should be in the PvE dps tree.

Blizzard has stated that they're shying away from the "this tree is pvp, this tree is dps" model; they completely changed Death Knights so that each tree can be beneficial.

Blood Frenzy makes sense to be in the "bleed-out" tree, which is the non-dual-wield tree, which it looks like they're trying to keep viable in PvE (it already is now, at least in 25mans). They've added a ton of things in the Protection tree to make it more viable in PvP. And they've added a few things in Fury to make it PvP viable as well.

Muffin Man
07-14-2008, 07:54 PM
This seems highly unlikely, as if this is the case then it general it will probably be better to stick with one-handed weapons, as applying negative haste affecting white damage (beyond weapon damage) would almost completely negate the benefits of Titan's Grip. Most people underestimate the amount of white damage generated by Fury as they don't factor Heroic Strike in, whereas in reality, Heroic Strike would be heavily penalized by this change.


I'm not discounting the effect of white damage on dps, but maybe my justification is wrong. I was told that most 2h weapons have +30% dps compared to equal ilevel 1h weapons. Anecdotally, the quest rewards from these two lvl 63 quests seem to bear that relationship out:
Helboard Carving Blade (http://www.wowwiki.com/Helboar_Carving_Blade) vs Wolfrider Dagger (http://www.wowwiki.com/Wolfrider%27s_Dagger)

This would mean that even if Titan's Grip is negative haste, the loss of dps at rank one will not cause your white damage to suffer, and additional points in titan's grip will continue to raise white damage without effecting normalized attacks. This will also make non-normalized attacks better as dps rises.

But what if I'm wrong and Titan's Grip modifies the damage range so that the speed modifier doesn't change the dps on that 2hander? Then there's no incentive to spec more into Titan's Grip because you'll be increasing the speed, lowering the damage and gimping normalized attacks.

I see two possibilities, mortal strike, ww, slam, ect are going to be non-normalized so that people will actually want more than 1 point in Titan's Grip. Or Titan's Grip will leave the weapon damage unchanged... so people will actually want more than 1 point in Titan's Grip.

Korlong
07-15-2008, 08:43 AM
If the negative haste applies to the attack power component of your attack, then rank one of Titan's Grip will be a massive DPS loss, as conventionally your weapon accounts for less than a quarter of your white DPS.

ebs2002
07-15-2008, 09:10 AM
If the negative haste applies to the attack power component of your attack

When has negative haste ever affected anything but the rate of your weapon speed? Just like positive haste doesn't lower your rage generation or make your Bloodthirsts deal less damage, why would negative haste do that as well?

Lets compare your DPS with dual-wielding S4 poleaxes vs S4 one-handed axes, assuming you have 3k attack power with the one-handers equipped:
Brutal Gladiator's Cleaver and Brutal Gladiator's Chopper
Brutal Gladiator's Painsaw x2
The one-handers give you 18hit and 98arp over the painsaws, the painsaw gives you 128ap and 58 crit over the one-handers.

One Handers: 3k Attack Power = 214dps. If you're attacking at 2.6speed , you're adding 556dmg via attack power.

Two Handers: 3128ap = 223dps. If you're attacking at 2.2speed, you're adding 491dmg via attack power. The average damage of the painsaw vs the one-handers is 29 more for the painsaw (well, 29 mh and 14.5 oh). Also, you've added 57.6dmg to each bloodthirst (non-crit), and 9 damage to each whirlwind (via the extra 128 attack power), plus 43dmg to WW because of the average weapon damage, and a whopping 52 crit rating.

If you're at 5/5, you're attacking only 0.04spd slower, or a loss of less than 2% white damage. If you're at 1/5 (and went 5/5 poleaxe spec), you're attacking 0.216 slower, or a loss of ~7.5% white damage, but the extra crit from dw-poleaxes should more than make up for the loss.

In short, even if they keep BT and WW as normalized attacks, dual-wielding will be more beneficial, at least in this scenario.

Korlong
07-15-2008, 07:07 PM
When has negative haste ever affected anything but the rate of your weapon speed? Just like positive haste doesn't lower your rage generation or make your Bloodthirsts deal less damage, why would negative haste do that as well?

Well alot of people seem to think you will see the same damage range as a normal two handed weapon, but as a slower attack. I don't think this is the case, but in order for it to be so, the negative haste from Titan's Grip would need to be unique, in that it would be a slow that increased attack damage.

I don't know why you're looking at the Polearms as well, as the slowest weapons you can get are still going to be best for Fury.

Korlong
07-16-2008, 07:58 AM
A couple of things I've been hearing as of yesterday, all completely unsubstantiated:

- As expected, damage calculation is done as:
rand(mDamage, MDamage) + AP * Speed * 1.2 / 14

- Titan's Grip removes the offhand damage penalty in its current alpha implementation (!)

I'm kind of doubting the second one, as it seems radically overpowered.

GarrettJaxx
07-16-2008, 08:05 AM
I have continuously heard that Polearms will not be included in Titan's Grip - it will be Axes and Swords, and yet everyone continues to talk about Polearms.

Korlong
07-16-2008, 09:01 AM
I have continuously heard that Polearms will not be included in Titan's Grip - it will be Axes and Swords, and yet everyone continues to talk about Polearms.

From the realism perspective, dual-wielding polearms makes no sense - at best it would be highly ineffective. Visualize, if you will, how you would fight holding two spears. Awkward.

The other side of it is that there are (obviously) no one-handed polearm animations. Actually there aren't any two-handed polearm animations, you just make retarded slashes instead of actually stabbing things.

It would be nice to be able to use a polearm in combination with a shield just for the cool factor though.

Kazeyonoma
07-16-2008, 09:21 AM
Polearms != Spears.

ebs2002
07-16-2008, 10:00 AM
http://therionarms.com/armor/polearm2.jpg

I would imagine dual-wielding polearms would be just as awkward as dual-wielding sledgehammers. It doesn't matter if you're slashing or piercing; if you were piercing, it would be like dual wielding daggers, only bitter. If you were slashing, it would be like dual wielding swords, only bigger.

All two handed weapons are bigger.

But you're right, the current verbiage doesn't say Polearms, just Two-Handed axes/swords/maces. The reason I used Polearms is because they're tuned the same way as all other 2h weapons are, as far as stats go, and a 2.2spd polearm with titan's grip maxed out is 2.6spd, which is what most fury warriors use.

So the point was, if it's true for polearms, it's probably true for axes/swords/maces, with the only worry being rage starvation due to a bad string of misses.

ebs2002
07-16-2008, 10:03 AM
A couple of things I've been hearing as of yesterday, all completely unsubstantiated:

- As expected, damage calculation is done as:
rand(mDamage, MDamage) + AP * Speed * 1.2 / 14

- Titan's Grip removes the offhand damage penalty in its current alpha implementation (!)

I'm kind of doubting the second one, as it seems radically overpowered.

I never said it removed the offhand damage penalty, I assumed that it's offhand damage penalty would be the same as the one-handed offhand damage penalty. Clearly you're not doing full damage with your offhand, but you never were before. You'll be doing 50%, increased by your dual-wield specialization.

Also, in my post, I assumed that the first wasn't true, either. I calculated the bonus damage from AP based on the 2h'ers original speed, not it's modified speed. It still came up on top in that thought experiment. If the AP was modified by the 1.2 negative-haste bonus, then it would be even stronger.

Kazeyonoma
07-16-2008, 10:16 AM
But if it is indeed negative haste, then it shouldn't affect the damage calc because the speed is calculated based on the weapon speed before haste effects, the same way rage generation is calculated before haste.

Crimsonstorm
07-16-2008, 10:26 AM
Titan's grip seems terrible to me, based on some math.

Compare:

DW 1hers (2.6 speed), 100dps, 34% buffed crit, 4200 raid buffed AP (how much I have with full buffs):

White dps: 300 from AP + 100 from weapons = 400. 400 MH, 250 OH = 650.
x1.34ish to account for crit = 871.
Flurry is +25% with 90% uptime or so, so x1.225 = 1067
Windfury damage = +20% white damage = +213.


Bloodthirst dps = 4200*.45 * 1/6sec * (1.34*1.1 crit) = 464.
WW dps = Main hand: (260 weapon damage + 300*2.4 AP) = 980 *1.34*1.1 for crits = 1444. OH 62.5% so 902. WW damage = 2346 * 1/9sec = 260.

Total = 1067 White +213 Wamage = 130*3.6 + 324*3.F+464 BT+260 WW = 2004. I havent accounted for heroic strikes or armor yet. But we'll say 2000 before armor, without heroic strikes.


Now, for 5/5 Titan Grip:

First, we gain stats by having 2H weapons. Comparing the amount of dps stats on a 1her vs 2her at T6 item levels, we get at MOST about 75 more dps stat itemization points, and thats if the 2her doesnt have stam. 50 if it does have stam. Say 75itemization points = 150AP, times 2 wepaons = 300 more AP, 330 with imp zerker.

DW 2hers (3.6 speed), 130dps, 4530 AP, 34% crit, -20% speed.

White dps = 130+324 = 454MH, 284 OH = 738 total.
*.8 for attacking 20% slower = 590 *1.34crit *1.225 flurry = 969 White dps.
Windfury dps = 20% = 194.

Bloodthirst dps = 4530*.45*1/6 *1.34*1.1 = 501

WW dps: MH = 130*3.6 + 324*3.4 = 1569. OH 62.5% so 981. Total = 2550 / 9sec = 283dps.

Total dps = 969 White + 194 WF + 501 BT + 283 WW = 1947.

Total dps has gone DOWN by 2.5% with 5/5 Titan Grip.
With 1/5 Titan grip I get dps of 1831, or a loss of over 8%.


What hasnt been accounted for:
Heroic strikes (increases 1her dps but not usable with 2hers, your rage generation is already HORRIBLE with hitting at an over 4 second speed). Given that heroic strike will add +495 damage in WotLK, this is a major loss.
Slams granted by the new talent. These are better for 2Her, but only by a factor of about 3.6/2.6, or about 40% better. And youre getting a proc every 15-20 seconds or so, so they arent gonna be a major part of your dps (much less than WW).

So basically, I think Titan Grip 1/5 is a massive dps loss, and Titan grip 5/5 is a small dps loss (or at best breakeven, which is LOL for 5 talents).

ebs2002
07-16-2008, 11:46 AM
Building off of Crimson's work, I noticed a few discrepancies (not completely liking the way he calculated crit damage, and not incorporating the hit table for white damage), and I decided made a spreadsheet to calculate damage, assuming the following:
34% crit, 4200 base AP, 182 hit rating, expertise dodge-capped (only because of an oversight). It used a 1.2 WF proc rate, and 1/2 Imp WW.

With these numbers, using the weapons that Crimson put out, I had:
For One Handers: 560 base dmg, 1890 BT base damage, 1690 WW base dmg
For Two Handers: 791 base dmg, 2038 BT base damage, 2653 WW base dmg

I also included 5/5 Imp Dual Wield, giving offhand damage modifier of 0.5*1.25, and then put all four types of attacks (MH White, OH White, BT, and WW) into the hit table.

My results:
1-handers:
white: 503dps
bt: 419dps
ww: 250dps

2-handers:
white: 428dps
bt: 452dps
ww: 392dps

Totals: 1173dps for the one-handers, and 1274dps for the two-handers.a gain of 8.6% with 5/5 titan's grip.

Changing the hit rating to 100 still put us at 1151 1h, 1255 2h.
Changing the hit rating to 250 still put us at 1191 1h, 1289 2h.
If you're hit-capped and expertise-capped, Titan's Grip is still on top, 1322 2h vs 1230 1h

The key thing to note is that with two-handers, whirlwind is dealing 57% more dps, and bloodthirst is dealing 7% more damage, and white attacks are dealing 15% less dps.

What isn't included: Expertise not maxed (incorporating gives 2h an advantage), WF AP increase (incorporating gives 1h an advantage), Heroic Strikes and Slam increases (incorporating HS I'm not sure who gets the advantage due to hit table vs base swing dmg vs rage but I'm going to give the nod to 1h, but slam gives 2h an advantage).

So it's still up in the air, but it's certainly not "LMAO TITANSGRIP SUCKS!" Not yet, at least.

ebs2002
07-16-2008, 11:48 AM
Forgot to upload the spreadsheet and it's not letting me edit

Crimsonstorm
07-16-2008, 12:05 PM
Doh I forgot about white misses, lol. I fail.

I already incorporated 5/5 OH spec, thats why my Oh damage was 62.5% of MH.

Crimsonstorm
07-16-2008, 12:22 PM
New math incorporating misses and glancing blows and dealing with crits better, for white&WF damage. My calculations for BT was correct, but I was forgetting to add crits on WW for 2hers, so that was way low.

I assume capped expertise, which should be the norm in wotlk with expertise enchants availble for gloves and bracers.

I'll assume 9% hit rating, to cap specials but no extra. This is the most favorable amount for titan's grip.

1Hers:

White dps if its all normal hits = 650.
19% miss(0), 34% crit(1300), 25%glance (.65*650=422),22%hit (650)
.34*1300+.25*422+.22*650 = 690. Accounting for misses, glances, crits.
x1.225 for flurry = 845.

WF dps = 169.

Bloodthirst dps = 4200*.45 * 1/6sec * (1.34*1.1 crit) = 464.

WW dps = Main hand: (260 weapon damage + 300*2.4 AP) = 980 *1.34*1.1 for crits = 1444. OH 62.5% so 902. WW damage = 2346 * 1/9sec = 260.

Total = 845 White + 169 WF + 464 BT + 260 WW = 1738dps. (Before armor and heroic strike and slam)


5/5 Titan Grip:
DW 2hers (3.6 speed), 130dps, 4530 AP, 34% crit, -20% speed.

White dps = 130+324 = 454MH, 284 OH = 738 total dps if its all normal hits. *.8 for attacking 20% slower = 590.

Crit = 1180, glance = 383.
DPS = .34*1180 + .22*590 + .25*383 = 627. x1.225 flurry = 768.
WF dps = 153.

Bloodthirst dps = 4530*.45*1/6 *1.34*1.1 = 501

WW dps: MH = 130*3.6 + 324*3.4 = 1569. OH 62.5% so 981. Total = 2550 *1.34*1.1 for crits / 9sec = 417dps.

Total dps = 768 White + 153 WF + 501 BT + 417 WW = 1839 (vs 1738 for 1hers).

Total dps has gone UP by 5.8% with 5/5 Titan Grip.
With 1/5 Titan grip I get dps of 1747, or a Gain of .5%.

Crimsonstorm
07-16-2008, 12:31 PM
Ok, so I find titan grip at around 1% per talent point. It seems that when accounting for BT and WW, but not yet accounting for Heroic Strike or Slams, that DWing 1hers and DWing 2hers at 28% speed penalty is about breakeven.

However, titan grip has the problem where it cant heroic strike, and has very unsmooth rage compared to 1hers which are much better. I think heroic strike will be a big deal, with increased bonus damage.

Crimsonstorm
07-16-2008, 12:33 PM
It seems that Titan's grip is best for very low gear levels (low ap, so less white damage, low hit, and the hit helps 1her DW more, etc)

ebs2002
07-16-2008, 01:18 PM
I think that the ability to slam between white swings (when using same-speed dps weapons) may outweigh the loss of Heroic Strike, but since I have never been Imp Slam spec, I've never fully researched how it worked. If I'm attacking with a 3.5spd weapon, and I'm slaming between each white attack, am I still attacking at 3.5spd? Or am I attacking at 3.5+cast_time_of_slam?

I'm assuming that using Quartz isn't because it resets your swing timer, but because you need to fit slam and an instant ability between each swing, but I could be mistaken.

Kazeyonoma
07-16-2008, 01:32 PM
slam resets your swing timer, so it is in fact, if you are attacking at 3.5 spd:

time you spent since you last swung + slam cast + 3.5 spd (again because it reset)

ebs2002
07-16-2008, 01:46 PM
Okay, that's what I thought.

So if you were doing 5/5 Titan's Grip with Imp Slam, you'd have a slow of 20%+0.5secs, give/take. And slam is MH weapon damage + 140 + AP/14*WpnSpeed (base weapon speed).

So with a 3.5spd weapon at 130dps, 5/5 non-slam is 4.2spd. 5/5 imp slam is 4.7-5.0 depending on your latency, making your white damage go down 10% best case, 16% worst case (assuming you can make it within 300ms), but you're dealing 130*3.5 + 140 + 4800/14*3.5 = 455 + 140 + 1200 = 1795dmg every 4.7-5secs, or an extra 359-381 dps (not accounting for dodge/glance/crit).

I dunno if this is feasable with our current rage generation, and it likely will interfere with keeping up BT and WW on perma-cooldown and refreshing shouts in a timely manner. But I guess we'll just have to see.

Kazeyonoma
07-16-2008, 01:55 PM
in wotlk, slam will reach rank 8, with bonus 250 damage not just 140.

ebs2002
07-16-2008, 02:22 PM
Yeah, but we can assume that all weapons/damage will be scaled as well, and that's just to keep slam useful. The +250dmg at level 80 endgame will be just as useful as the +140dmg is now at lvl70 endgame (and likewise at level 80 entry-level raids vs level 70 entry-level raids).

Course, again, it's all conjecture, but there's no sense in doing the math with level 80 slam/heroic strike/whatever ranks if we don't have weapon stats and raid-buffed attack power numbers at level 80, so the only thing we *can* do if we theorycraft with these numbers is assume that everything scales nicely (lol).

Kazeyonoma
07-16-2008, 02:32 PM
true enough.

Carry on =P

Korlong
07-16-2008, 04:38 PM
Titan's grip seems terrible to me, based on some math.

(...)

White dps = 130+324 = 454MH, 284 OH = 738 total dps if its all normal hits. *.8 for attacking 20% slower = 590.

(...)

There isn't enough supporting information for me to follow your calculations through, but you are calculating base white dps for Titan's Grip incorrectly.

((130 * .8) + 324) * 1.62500 = 695.5

You're also not factoring in slam.


I never said it removed the offhand damage penalty, I assumed that it's offhand damage penalty would be the same as the one-handed offhand damage penalty. Clearly you're not doing full damage with your offhand, but you never were before. You'll be doing 50%, increased by your dual-wield specialization.

It wasn't directed at you or your posts, it's just what I am hearing talking to people who are talking to people who are playing the alpha. Again, completely unsubstantiated.

ebs2002
07-18-2008, 10:09 AM
((130 * .8) + 324) * 1.62500 = 695.5

Still not right. ((130 / 1.2) + 324) * 1.625 = 702.5

Attacking 20% slower does not mean you're doing 80% of the DPS, it means you're doing 130damage/1.2seconds = 83.333% of the DPS.

If you're doing math based on Titan's Grip, you should not use 0.8 at all, that's just bad logic :-p

Crimsonstorm
07-18-2008, 10:14 AM
Ok, so dividing by 1.2 is better than multiplying by .8

However, 205 attack speed reduction also decreases your damage given by AP.

Its NOT (130/1.2) + 324 * whatever.

Titan grip turning your 3.8 second swing into 4.56 seconds (20% slower) does NOT mean that 14 AP gives you +4.56 dps. Because your weapon is still 3.8 speed. It multiplies your white damage by (1/1.2) or 83.3%.

ebs2002
07-18-2008, 11:08 AM
Just walking through the math here...With a 130dps weapon at 3.8spd:

In a 4.56sec swing timer, your damage dealt is (130*3.8 + AP/14*3.8), and your DPS is
(130*3.8 + AP/14*3.8)/4.56 = (130*3.8 + AP/14*3.8)/(3.8 * 1.2) = (130/1.2) + (AP/14/1.2) = (130 + AP/14)/1.2. Your Off-Hand DPS is the same, only with 0.625 tacked on at the end.

Your base DPS with Titan's Grip, dual wielding those weapons, is:

((130 + AP/14) / 1.2) * 1.625. At 4536 AP (where 324 came from), this would be 614.791DPS.

The spreadsheet I uploaded should have factored this in correctly, since I calculated this base damage done per swing, and extrapolated that across a 60second window and the hit table, and then divided by 60seconds.

Korlong
07-18-2008, 12:26 PM
The effect of the speed depends on interpretation.

"20% less attacks" yields different results than "20% longer swing timer".

I'm waiting on solid information now though. I'm surprised nobody has anything solid from the beta at the moment. What we really need is a character sheet showing AtP and damage ranges.


However, 205 attack speed reduction also decreases your damage given by AP.That's how it reads, but I seriously doubt that that is how it is implemented. Why? Because Titan's Grip would be a terribad talent. (Of course that hasn't stopped Bladestorm or Endless Rage). What makes sense is for it to affect weapon damage only, so that the stat bonus from the two-handers is the immediate bonus of Titan's Grip.

ebs2002
07-18-2008, 12:39 PM
That's how it reads, but I seriously doubt that that is how it is implemented. Why? Because Titan's Grip would be a terribad talent.

I've done math that shows that if that IS how it's implemented, you're still getting 1-2% DPS increase per talent point spent (depending on your current gear level). So it's not quite as good as spending 5pts in Imp Berserker Stance, but it's not to be overlooked. See the spreadsheet (and please, if I made any mistakes, let me know where).

Brutally
07-18-2008, 06:28 PM
You guys can't forget the aesthetic part of TG. Imagine how cool you'll look with a gigantic weapon in your main hand :P

Gorgrim Warcry
07-19-2008, 10:14 AM
Personally I hope they make serious changes I like the fact now that I can raid with a MS/slam spec. It seems like to me if titans grip belongs anywhere its in the MS Arms tree, but the arms tree is looking for purely pvp now. I don't know why the still have blood frenzy in there at this point just move it to fury if you are going to make arms totally useless for raiding.

GarrettJaxx
07-20-2008, 07:01 AM
It seems like to me if titans grip belongs anywhere its in the MS Arms tree

Seriously? I think it's an obvious dual-wield enhancement, which has never had any link to Arms. I think with Precision, Weapon Mastery and DW Specialty in Fury, TG was designed specifically to give Fury a chance at some PvP and to continue to be a viable PvE Powerhouse build.

I doubt it'll come off well, they'll either nerf something or have poor mechanics, it's always the way. I just hope it's not warriors in the WoW forums complaining about it that force it to change and get nerfed.

Korlong
07-20-2008, 11:52 AM
There's alot of people suggesting that Heroic Leap get moved to the Arms tree. I'm fine with that, as neither Heroic Leap nor Bladestorm are useful for Fury.

Korlong
07-20-2008, 09:51 PM
Ok, so there's information available now, and it looks as though it is in fact the worst of all possible cases (I was wrong).

Frankly I'm disappointed. And a little concerned about how Titan's Grip is going to affect scaling, as it reduces the benefits of all stats to white damage by 20/28% (depending on how you choose to spec - to be honest I think you'll find 28% yields higher dps). This is somewhat concerning, as using Titan's Grip white damage is going to be a proportionally larger component of your DPS, as a result of removing Heroic Strike from your rotation.

ebs2002
07-21-2008, 09:41 AM
This is somewhat concerning, as using Titan's Grip white damage is going to be a proportionally larger component of your DPS, as a result of removing Heroic Strike from your rotation.

Yes and no. You can slam now with Titan's Grip (seems like that's what blizzard wants), and your whirlwind damage is going to shoot up through the roof. Plus, you get more stats with a pair of 2h'ers than with 1h'ers.

One thing I'm curious to see is if the insta-slam from a BT crit resets your swing timer.

Crimsonstorm
07-21-2008, 10:07 AM
That's how it reads, but I seriously doubt that that is how it is implemented. Why? Because Titan's Grip would be a terribad talent.

Thats how its implemented, and thats why its a terribad talent, and why it needs to be changed.

Korlong
07-21-2008, 07:48 PM
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."

Archangelneun
07-23-2008, 12:08 AM
Building off of Crimson's work, I noticed a few discrepancies (not completely liking the way he calculated crit damage, and not incorporating the hit table for white damage), and I decided made a spreadsheet to calculate damage, assuming the following:
34% crit, 4200 base AP, 182 hit rating, expertise dodge-capped (only because of an oversight). It used a 1.2 WF proc rate, and 1/2 Imp WW.

With these numbers, using the weapons that Crimson put out, I had:
For One Handers: 560 base dmg, 1890 BT base damage, 1690 WW base dmg
For Two Handers: 791 base dmg, 2038 BT base damage, 2653 WW base dmg

I also included 5/5 Imp Dual Wield, giving offhand damage modifier of 0.5*1.25, and then put all four types of attacks (MH White, OH White, BT, and WW) into the hit table.

My results:
1-handers:
white: 503dps
bt: 419dps
ww: 250dps

2-handers:
white: 428dps
bt: 452dps
ww: 392dps

Totals: 1173dps for the one-handers, and 1274dps for the two-handers.a gain of 8.6% with 5/5 titan's grip.

Changing the hit rating to 100 still put us at 1151 1h, 1255 2h.
Changing the hit rating to 250 still put us at 1191 1h, 1289 2h.
If you're hit-capped and expertise-capped, Titan's Grip is still on top, 1322 2h vs 1230 1h

The key thing to note is that with two-handers, whirlwind is dealing 57% more dps, and bloodthirst is dealing 7% more damage, and white attacks are dealing 15% less dps.

What isn't included: Expertise not maxed (incorporating gives 2h an advantage), WF AP increase (incorporating gives 1h an advantage), Heroic Strikes and Slam increases (incorporating HS I'm not sure who gets the advantage due to hit table vs base swing dmg vs rage but I'm going to give the nod to 1h, but slam gives 2h an advantage).

So it's still up in the air, but it's certainly not "LMAO TITANSGRIP SUCKS!" Not yet, at least.


Also wanted to say, you guys didnt add the 3% more dmg of 2h spec.....

ebs2002
07-23-2008, 08:49 AM
Yeah, I didn't add things like that because it depends on precisely how you spec. I was looking for the base increase of the talent. Of course, there's a lot of ways to do the math...5% critchance/damage with poleaxe spec and a pair of axes; 3% or 5% increased 2h damage, 1.28 or 1.20 penalty, what about these two specific weapons, etc etc.

The exercise was merely to show that it's not a "terribad talent" like people are spouting.

Archangelneun
08-06-2008, 05:45 PM
i say 32/39/0 seems good, but need to take a look at the (deep fury) 5/5 titan's XD