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breaklance
07-09-2008, 11:43 PM
So, ive really tried to gear my guy for as much EH and Threat as possible, and i can alwways sacrifice a little for another, but as i browsed through the VR strats can a tank be so high on threat, that when hes knocked back he still is VR's target?

The strategy i guess being to have a tank stack threat stats, and have hunters MD as much as possible.

My guild's only making our first VR attempts in another week, as we've been really trying to gear people through kara and gruuls. we got a handful of very geared then the rest being borderline minimum for t5. So im just wondering if i can finagle my way to being the main target most of the fight, being the most geared tank.

Elyvern
07-10-2008, 01:24 AM
You can still be holding aggro after a knockback but it's hard. I wear my full heroic gear for VR with 91 hit, 480 SBV, and 102 expertise. I actually let shieldblock lapse and take some crushings to build threat for this fight. My OTs are both feral druids that can generate amazing aggro, mainly because feral druids gain more rage from their attacks, while prot warriors gain more from being hit. So if your OT is a warrior, it'll be easier for you to hold aggro.

Usually though, aggro bounces between me and this 1 other druid. I also pop recklessness so that my moves crit to get more aggro but this also means I can't pop shield wall. Together with the occasional crushing, the lower avoidance from stacking threat gear - I will warn my healers that I'd take more damage on this boss than usual.

Shortypop
07-10-2008, 01:30 AM
Yep its definitely possible. The knack with VR is definitely to stack as much threat stats as possible, he doesn't really hit all that hard. Things like +hit food are also worth it for this fight. Just mess around a bit with gear on the tries and you'll get a feel for what you can sacrifice. It depends a bit on your ranged and healers, if they are good at avoiding damage then the tanks can take more damage and still get healed. Also depends how melee heavy you are.

Personally I'd spread the misd's around - assign each hunter a tank, just in case the MT looses agro or dies (if all assigned healers are busy running from arcane-thingies), you must have a tank second and third on his agro list. As soon as one (particularly ranged) pulls agro, it will be like dominoes as he'll head over to them, therefore agro'ing other ranged, as they will suddenly be in melee range of him, so remind your ranged to keep below the tanks If needed you can stack the tank group in your favour - feral druid, shammy, second warrior (for both shouts) etc. Will depend on whether your dps needs help beating the enrage timer, or the tanks need help keeping ahead of the dps :)

Let us know how it goes and if we can be of any further help - gl.

Elyvern
07-10-2008, 01:47 AM
Following up on what Shorty said, my guild however has a different approach to the orbs though. Since they don't register anymore on combat log, we have all range/melee stack behind the tanks, and have 2 hunters running clock-wise, anti-clockwise on the outer circle, dodging orbs. When I get knockback but am still holding aggro, I must quickly run back to my original position or risk my raid behind VR getting orbs.

Still, the tactic works. On the up side, this means that if tanks hold aggro well, healers have absolutely no excuse at all on missing heals. On the down side, this means that everyone is within melee range and range dps must be warned not to go above 110% on the threat table. Range/healers will also be taking pound damage.

Also, I understand your reason for wanting to be the only tank taking hits because of your gear, but in the event that you do lose aggro, you'll still want your OTs to have the chance to generate as much threat as they can. If they are prot wars, they should be able to survive a few hits and generate some spike aggro back in return. Having 2-3 dps below you on threat and your OTs further lower is a recipe to disaster imo.

Shortypop
07-10-2008, 02:02 AM
Seconded Elyvern, we've also used the everyone underneath VR's feet tactic and it works well. It can be healer intensive though, the more "mass" healers you have the better - CoH priests and resto shammys (and even shadow priests). If you don't have two hunters, locks can work well as "orb kiters", as long as they both understand their job is to stay alive and dps is a very far distant second. Their lack of dps should be made up by the fact that all your other ranged is not having to avoid orbs and therefore can dps full time (as long as they stay under the tanks).

breaklance
07-10-2008, 06:27 PM
ya i was about to ask that, for the standing on top of VR tactic for healers. I dont think i want to put my healers through entire raid healing

my threat set has about 40 hit, and 128 expertise rating, then 487 SBV. The tradeoff is two threat trinkets, +51 stam darkmoon or Shard of Contempt. Without shard im at 84 expertise rating.

But to kind of differentiate on what both of you mentioned, during the strategy movie they say that VR will shoot orbs at the furtherst people away. I forget offhand what a hunter's actual range is but ill assume 36yrds, would it be possible for healers and ranged dps to stand 15-20 yrds from VR, and have 2 hunters at 35-40 yrds doing the circles and no one get hit by the orbs?

I have no clue how id get the raid to recognize what 15-20 yrds is, but if i could still have only 2 people getting shot at, with melee only taking the slams that'd be cool. I dont know how half assed everyone will be, msot of the people we are putting into the progression group do listen, and from what people have told me, and ive seen, NOT dodging the orbs is supreme laziness.

also comment on my threat stats

Elyvern
07-11-2008, 12:02 AM
I have no clue how id get the raid to recognize what 15-20 yrds is, but if i could still have only 2 people getting shot at, with melee only taking the slams that'd be cool. I dont know how half assed everyone will be, msot of the people we are putting into the progression group do listen, and from what people have told me, and ive seen, NOT dodging the orbs is supreme laziness.

also comment on my threat stats

Remember that when you get knocked back while still holding aggro, VR will move towards you if you don't get back into position fast enough. Which puts a bigger distance between your raid and the boss. And I have seen occasions when even with 2 hunters dodging orbs in the outer ring, my range/healers still getting orbed even though the hunters are further out.

Personally, I feel that minimising the unexpected and the need to multi-task (ie. people dying from not paying attention while healing/dpsing, being unable to gauge the distance) offsets the higher healing required. Because all your healers need to do is heal, and they will heal better when they can concentrate entirely on healthbars, with no orbs, no distance to dodge/gauge. Your mileage may differ.

Your threat stats look fine. The amount of threat you and your OTs need to put depends entirely on the threat ceiling of your dps and healers. Your threat gear is similar to mine and my guild has been raiding SSC/TK for a while. If your raid is just starting out, your dpsers shouldn't be threatening your tps too much.

Homunkulus
07-16-2008, 03:30 AM
As has been stated it most certainly is possible. Your threat isn't the only issue, having off tanks who know how to play makes the biggest difference. In the first guild I did VR with early last year we effectively did it with two tanks. Occasionally the third might see one knockbacks worth late in the fight but that was a very rare occurrence. More recently and playing with substantially worse off tanks I was finding that I was getting 50%> HP before I'd ever lose agro on a knockback. To be fair on the dps they were knocking him down in under 7 minutes so I wasn't taking too many punts. Just gear for threat, get a WF totem and a druid and you're golden. Also I'd suggest swinging behind him when you aren't holding agro, any extra hit is helpful and does help catch up.

Jogre
08-12-2008, 02:12 PM
Yes you can, and probably will tank him most of the fight. Besides your own gear, I would recommend also looking at group make ups to max/min threat.

We recently got our first kill and used a enh. shammy/cat druid/war/war/war tank group. The tanks having kings, might, LotP, battle shout, windfury and unleashed rage made a HUGE difference. As MT I put out 356 dps compared to my normal 250ish. Have the hunters MD every CD as well.

We run very caster heavy, and they were busy dodging lots of orbs, so threat was not a huge issue for us. If you run lots of melee dps you may want to try giving them a spare shammy for tranquil air. Or, if it is only 1 or 2 melee that are climbing high, have a pally bubble them at some point in the fight to reset threat.

Something I have been wondering, and maybe someone more experienced could chime in on this. It seems like the threat dump can be avoided, as I did not take that many knockbacks during the fight. Would it be worth it to stack some avoidance to avoid the threat dumps? You risk being a little rage starved but his constant aoe arcane damage could make up for that.

Ukk
08-19-2008, 06:50 AM
Can anyone tell me whether Omen registers the threat reduction on the knockback target?

It seems as though ranged dps that has jumped into 3rd or 4th place on threat has been pulling aggro and causing us a wipe in the 10-15% range. They are never 2nd on aggro according to Omen at the time of a knockback, so I just can't figure it out.

Vissara
08-20-2008, 11:23 PM
Omen does register the threat reduction. If your dps is pushing very high TPS they can actually get ahead of the tank that takes the knockback.

My typical tps suit right now has 116 HR, 28 ER, almost 450 SBV. And to the OP its very possible to retain agro after the knockback. This past weekend I had it happen to me a few times.

thedrawrf
08-22-2008, 03:25 PM
Well, most have what should have been said has been said, but, one piece of advice: If you loose aggro, demo shout, thunder clap, and switch to a nice heavy 1-hander like the Decapitator ( the ultimate undervalued prot weapon, should be in every tank's bag ) and spam devistate and SS when it's available. You'll get your aggro back :)

breaklance
08-23-2008, 11:35 PM
if anyone is still reading this wondering about the threatknockbacks, in my gear mentinoned before(though slightly different, got me mallet o'tides) but i usually last the first 40% of the fight pumping out, according to omen, 1200-1500 tps. around 50-60% i tend to repeadetly get bad strains of 2-4 knockbacks in succession(non-dodged) and lose aggro.

only problem i seem to have is that after that happens my ot while 2nd in threat picks up VR but the dps really is at his heels. Thats when i have to start yelling out to stop dps for individuals, or soulshatter.