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Tank
07-03-2008, 09:34 PM
We kill Vashj 1 raid nite, Kael 2 raid nites, Taron 2 raid nites. I must say that the Raid leaders did an awesome job in theory crafting the raid to bring us to 4/5 MH, 4/9 BT within a few weeks.

I would like to work out a plan in completing the 4th Time Chest in ZA for the guild.

Ciderhelm talks about speed and efficiency in the podcast and I think our guild members certainly have these qualities and it is fustrating not to be able to do it.

I understand that Ciderhelm has posted a thread on ZA strats and bosses, but does anyone has different stats in doing 4 time chest?

Examples are raid make up, which boss to kill first, shortcuts and etc.

phaze
07-04-2008, 10:51 AM
Examples are raid make up, which boss to kill first, shortcuts and etc.
1 MT
1 OT (DPS'ing when not tanking)
2 healers
6 DPS

Dropping from 3 to 2 healers is the biggest boost, when working on this.

Chests: ignore until done with timer; the NPCs aren't going anywhere.

kill order and shortcuts are available in other threads, but roughly:
Akil'zon - grab most/all of the gauntlet at once
Nalorakk - Soothe Beast on the double-bear pull
Jan'alai - Don't let Scouts call for help, don't let Flamecasters destroy you
Halazzi - Hop around the left side and cut through the tent to save 2 mins (skips some pulls)

lightpost
07-04-2008, 12:16 PM
The first time our group ever got a bear, we ran with
g1: warrior tank, feral druid OT, enh shaman x2, bm hunter
g2: destro lock, spriest x2, holy pally, resto druid
however we now run with a fury warrior instead of one shaman, and an ele shaman to replace one priest.

as far as the DPS goes, make sure to bring solid, geared players. you basically *need* a shadow priest for your healers, and using mind control on flame casters really helps. As long as they pull 1100-1200 DPS you will have plenty of time to spare. We usually get ~7/8 minutes left after killing lynx

definitely go eagle/bear/hawk/lynx as far as kill order.

Mulama
07-09-2008, 11:26 AM
My guild has recently picked up 5 bears so far in the last 6 runs.

We are a friend and family casual guild but have a core group of raiders that like to do 10 mans. We sometimes have trouble gettins a 25 man off the ground.

Progression wise we have only downed Void Reaver a couple of times and Hydross a few also. Recently we have been in Hyjal and have 2/5 there.

Guild progression: WowJutsu: World of Warcraft Guild Rankings: Detheroc > RHOT (http://www.wowjutsu.com/us/detheroc/RHOT)

I think we may be on the lower end gear wise and progression wise for being able to do bear runs but we can do it and have 5 to 6 mins to spare.

Group makeup changes a little with healer/dps, but tanks stay the same. But we all know our jobs and have played with each other in this instance enough to know what is going to happen.

If you guys can clear T5 content then i'm sure with some dedication you can get bears soon too.

Usually on our runs the Paly pushes and i pick mobs off him. Window trick too and we sooth the bear if we have a druid and MC if possible. Its not necessary though. Recently the couple of leather workers with us spam drums too to help with DPS.

A couple of WWS stats from our last couple runs.

WWS Loading... (http://wowwebstats.com/jfhiqlqesbfzq)
WWS Loading... (http://wowwebstats.com/n2w6e1amyo3yo)
WWS Loading... (http://wowwebstats.com/4gehyzvmsnyew)

ramboschox
07-11-2008, 01:43 AM
g1: warrior tank, feral druid OT, enh shaman x2, bm hunter
g2: destro lock, spriest x2, holy pally, resto druid


warrior tank is the worst tank choice 4 this instance, at no Boss the oshit buttons are needed.
Best tank choice immo ist feral (OT) pala (MT) makes trash more easy, BoS makes bosses faster and the TC (if u healers arenīt that good) can be spammed by a fury warrior.
We are doing bears no sometime and have about 10mins over after the last chest, and we dont even hurry very much.

Warriors are the worst choice as tanks on 4 ZA timed runs

edith: our g1: Pallytank, Priest Heal, Shaman Heal, Mage, Mage
g2: Druidtank, Offwarri, Rogue, Enhancer, Hunter

Shortypop
07-11-2008, 01:58 AM
Ramboschox - please don't take that kinda attitude about tanks. Yes, if you're comfortably overgeared "obother" buttons arent needed but a well timed last stand can easily be the difference between a wipe (and therefore not a timed run) and not. I'd like to meet a fury warriors who is happy to spam thunderclap, while maintaining max dps (not possible) and a prot pally putting BoS, assumes no holy pally in the group.

I've never completed a bear run, but if you've 10minutes after last chest imo you are seriously overgeared, and/or very used to running ZA together.

Yes, pally tanking the aoe groups is very useful and yes, saves time, but can be done by a holy pally. Yes, druid OT's have high dps when not tanking, but I've done 840dps (without a shammy, in full prot spec) on eagle before now which I don't think is too bad, considering I add a full stack of sunder armours, demo shout and battle shout. Yes GotW, +crit and a pally aura and buff are useful additions as well.

But, please don't put people off taking warrior tanks to ZA :(

Mulama
07-11-2008, 07:39 AM
I also disagree about warrior tanks in ZA. They are very useful and can tank every fight.

Bear boss is a good example of a Warrior MT needing a panic button. I tank his bear phase and if a silence goes down on the healers, i need to survive not getting healed for a short time and still take a big beating.


PS. I got my bear mount last night myself. A Warrior MT in ZA and Badge gear.

jlafleur
07-11-2008, 11:11 AM
warrior tank is the worst tank choice 4 this instance, at no Boss the oshit buttons are needed.
Best tank choice immo ist feral (OT) pala (MT) makes trash more easy, BoS makes bosses faster and the TC (if u healers arenīt that good) can be spammed by a fury warrior.
We are doing bears no sometime and have about 10mins over after the last chest, and we dont even hurry very much.

Warriors are the worst choice as tanks on 4 ZA timed runs

edith: our g1: Pallytank, Priest Heal, Shaman Heal, Mage, Mage
g2: Druidtank, Offwarri, Rogue, Enhancer, Hunter

My guild couldn't get past Hex Lord let alone Zul'Jin with their pally tank. I guess I was serviceable enough as a bad warrior tank to get the job done and clear it two out of two times. Skill > class IMO.

Kerchunk
07-11-2008, 06:57 PM
warrior tank is the worst tank choice 4 this instance, at no Boss the oshit buttons are needed.
Best tank choice immo ist feral (OT) pala (MT) makes trash more easy, BoS makes bosses faster and the TC (if u healers arenīt that good) can be spammed by a fury warrior.
We are doing bears no sometime and have about 10mins over after the last chest, and we dont even hurry very much.

Warriors are the worst choice as tanks on 4 ZA timed runs

edith: our g1: Pallytank, Priest Heal, Shaman Heal, Mage, Mage
g2: Druidtank, Offwarri, Rogue, Enhancer, Hunter

^ Try to make less sense. I dare you.

AngerIssues
07-11-2008, 11:36 PM
We do
G1: Pally Tank, Feral Druid, Fury Warr, Ret Pally, Resto sham(dropping WF)
G2: Resto Druid, Ele Shaman, 2 x Destro Locks, Mage

LWers in each group so drums and heroisms all around, most time weve had left is 7m on the timer. Good Prot warr can do what the feral does, we just dont have any of those really :/ Have about 15 bears in the guild now

Tatt
07-12-2008, 08:00 AM
Agree with kerchunk, other than being slightly insulted at being declared useless as a tank in there, I have no earthly idea what else that guy said.

laststand
07-16-2008, 08:18 AM
Iīm in Badge/za gear and i managed to complete the 4th chest after about 2 month practice. I usually pick up randoms over lfg, however I request that everbody is at least also za/badge/t5 geared. ( Itīs a lot more difficult to find T6 geareds quickly. )

It is very important that you are giving commands to everything that you are pulling/want your feral to pull/mage to sheep.
A few notes on what has helped me.

I usually run the same setup:

def tank
feral tank
rogue
fury
melee shami

heal druid/shami
holy pala
mage
warlock
shadow

After opening the Doors, I tell the feral to walk with his mob down the stairs.

Ignore first pat if possible.

During gautlet, I go in front, tell dps to focus the caster, then your second add, while you walk to the next, focus birds/mobs from behind.
Pull the large guy as soon as the caster is down, tell dps to clear everything behind you.

Call out Storm
Remind raid to loot quickly and mount up.

The way to the Bear is where you can gain the most time advantage by chain pulling:

Sheep the medicine guy in the pat, tell your feral to pick him up when the other one is half down.
While dps is still killing medicine guy, pull/mark the 3 trolls.

Sheep one, break cc as soon as 1 target is down.

As soon as the ferals target is down, let him pull the bears, sheep the second one.
Let feral pick up the sheep when first bear is half dead.

While dps is killng the second bear, run towars the 4 troll packs. Mark one sheep,(medicine) one mind control (axe)

Same for the last pack before bear Boss.

Again remind everyone to loots quickly and mount up.
Call down on scouts.

Let mage chainsheep one flamecaster, to messy using mind controls during this phase. As soon as you break cc, ask the rogue to kick/stun him if possible

Ignore the pat bofore the last 4 trolls pack.

Mark the first Flamecaster for mind control. Ask dps to focus second during mindcontrol. Go soft tank him, in case it gets messy. Ask feral to tank the 2 guardians without pulling aggro from the mindcontrol.
Remind the raid 37 times to move to the stairs or the pat wipes you :)

Do Boss as explained everywhere.
Do not loot third Boss, you can do this later.

You should have around 15 mins, that will be safe.

Explain raid that you are going to jump through the huts.
Mount up, ignore pat and ride down to the left, afterwards up the hill to the left lynx pack. kill them, mark pat, jump throught the windows.
mount up, ride along the left side of the second hut, until the way next to the water.

As soon as you see the pat jump in the water and ignore them.
Mark one Lynx for your target, let the feral take he rest.

Sheep one of the 2 troll pats.
You have to chain pull here as well.
Remind casters to be careful not to aggro he lynx packs.

In the last room , if you see the pat etering on the left side, you should have enough time to kill the two static packs (usually the last mob is stil tanked.) Ask your mage to sheep the flamecaster away from the second pack or you will pull it when breaking the sheep.

You should have 4-5 min for the last Boss which is usually enough even if Dps is below T6.

The most important things are chainpulling, and a feral that knows what you want him to do.

Tatt
07-16-2008, 08:25 AM
Interesting, never seen a guide that actually did the eagle guantlet instead of using one of the tricks. Nice guide!

laststand
07-17-2008, 01:38 AM
I might add that it is possibly to use invisibilty potions at 3 points. However it is to dangerous to try this with a raid that is not used to the strategy ( someone always scrubs out :) ). So I would only recommend this strategy if you have a regular group that misses the 4th loot by 3-4 minutes. You can gain smth around 4 min by skipping up to 4 additional packs.

1. Point is the first two static bears.
This is also a good place to practice.

2. Point is the First pack on way to dragonhawk. You better kill the lone scout in front of them. Scouts donīt see you during invisibility but from my experience, better kill him

Note that all other packs have detect invisibility on way to dragonhawk.

3. The 2 lynx, 2 troll pack before Halazziīs room.

If your timing is good (your raids timing) you can also skip the pat when it walks up the stairs. This really gives you 2 mins extra and is worth the whole effort.
You should tell everyone( xept mage and feral) to run in the deep left corner of the cross shaped room before the Bossīs room. You wonīt pull the pack outside as long as you stay in the room. It is close but it works.

Since invisi pots know have only two mins cooldown (10 mins before) it might be possible to use them more often on way to lynx. However I have no information if the packs can detect you there.

phaze
07-17-2008, 05:49 AM
Interesting, never seen a guide that actually did the eagle guantlet instead of using one of the tricks. Nice guide!
We just do the eagle gauntlet normally (usually 3 pairs instead of 4, with people straggling a bit on the run-in). Works fine that way, and doesn't involve any 'tricks' that will be patched out eventually. ;)



invisibilty potions at 3 points.
1. Point is the first two static bears.

You can Soothe Beast on the double-bear pull, if you have a Druid in the raid. Just make sure your Druid knows the difference between Soothe and Hibernate. ;)



Since invisi pots know have only two mins cooldown (10 mins before) it might be possible to use them more often on way to lynx. However I have no information if the packs can detect you there.
Also from the 2.4.3 patch notes:
# Invisibility Potions: These potions now are on the same cooldown as other combat consumable potions (such as mana potions.)

So they might require more planning ahead, to prevent cooldown collisions.

In my experience, the biggest boost is dropping from 3 healers to 2. If the 2 healers can keep everyone alive, you'll have plenty of time left over.