View Full Version : Guild Relations 6

07-02-2008, 03:20 PM

Podcast Information
This podcast answers 16 member-submitted questions on guild management. The questions answered are included in the first response to this post.

07-02-2008, 03:21 PM
How was loot sorted in the molten crew? Im tempted to start something similair with t5 layer content, but the natural instinct is /roll, at least until it became a very set 25/30 people (which i get the impressinot he molten crew did obviously 40/50 though) just curious what you did and how it went down with the raid.

What are the basics needed in place before starting a hardcore progression PvE guild in Wrath of the Liche King? What are some tips to getting this together? How do we pull in serious members who aren't already commited.

One of the main issues we have is that as PvPers we didnt need a website or a way to track DKP. Now I understand this is important as a PvE guild and I'm wondering if you have good advice on how to get one setup.

As we look to start an app process we are a bit lost how to ask questions. Now I've seen the basic apps, and I've even bullshitted my way into a few PvE guilds. I don't want the normal chaff, but "effective" questions to really kind of identify atleast the people who are gonna slow us down.

I've been known to be a hardnose asshole, I completely agree with your speed pulling and a lot of your opinions on not inviting folks or kicking them from the raid if they go afk and what not. However in the beginning it seems as though i may have to deal with some of the less ideal raiders just to sustain #s. Whats my breaking point?

I am wondering how do you get 25 players geared for 25 man content when the one of the only options to get gear is 10 man. An example would be how do I get my guild members ready for TK and SSC when all they have to work with is Kara, which I can't get all 25 people into.

I want to be able to make sure everyone will be geared for 25 man content in WOTLK but am not sure how to do that if the previous instance will be 10 man.

Question 1: Is it possible to get people to a position where they understand how beneficial it is for them to respec -- enough that they actually want to do it?

Question 2: What methods would you suggest to lessen the inconvenience of respecing? I know there are mods which help here, I just don't know how easy they are to use or which ones are any good.

After listening to your podcast on speed and efficiency I started thinking about how to speed up the loot process, as this is often when people tend to go afk, or relax a little while loot is distributed. You have mentioned how you would speed pull, and handle loot while pulling the next pack. Could you shed some light on what kind of loot system or rules you used to achieve this. I find our guild to waste alot of time idle'ing while waiting for loot distribution, as this is critical time wasted when we only raid 12hrs a week.

My question is how do you decide group composition? What kind of group synergys do you see to be the most effective and how do hybrids do in the raid (introduction of ret palis/moonkin) over pure classes (rogues/mages). Also, extending this to more guild management, how would you go about telling people they need to spec different (holy paladin -> prot) for hyjal. Also, this is because we've had less than ideal attendence the past few days (summer vacation i think) such as today where i cancelled our raid because we only had 20 online. I've opened up recruitment, but sometimes i need to just grab what i can... am i better off cancelling or waiting for ideal group composition?


I am an officer in a guild that is ready to start SSC and TK. Gruul and Magtheridon are on farm status, enthusiasm is high, and recruitment is up. Ten man raids will be moved to off nights, our focus will shift to T5 raiding, and we have settled on a new loot policy. We are undecided on an invite process for raids, however. What is fair?

I feel that a raid leader invite, no sign up process is best. Simply post the time that invites will start, and create the best balance of 25 people for the content from who is logged on and available at the time. Extras are welcome to stay online, and earn dkp for being available. Others feel that method is too elitist, and for a guild that is billed as "casual" we should be using the web site for signups as the fairest method for stocking the raids. They are concerned that un-invited raiders will hurt guild-wide morale and cost us the valued membership we have worked so hard to recruit.

I see a web site sign up policy as problematic for several reasons. First, we can not depend on all interested raiders to visit the web site and sign up, and when they do there is often no guarantee that whoever signs up will show up. Second, the time stamp accompanying individual signups lead to a first come first served policy that rarely, if ever, create a balanced raid makeup by class or level of gear in relation to the planned content. And third, the problems associated with the first two make for a cumbersome and time consuming invite process, full of delicate compromises, that frankly, officers have better things to do than be bogged down with at the start of every raid.

I realize at the heart of this question is another question: what interests does the guild have in mind? Suffice it to say, the council of officers has agreed our main goal is to form the best raid groups we can get three or four nights a week, in order to see the most content we can before Wrath of the Lich King is released, while catering chiefly to our core of dedicated raiders.

What are your thoughts on this?

What to do about the pretty decent raiders (non-tanks) - that have regular DC issues. Some people have random DCs - but lets say every raid, a couple times. Then there is a few that DC regularly at a set time - for some weird unknown reason.

How do you keep the motivation for people to continue to raid "stale" instances like Hyjal, when there still is significant loot to be had by others from Archimonde...so the top-tier raiders wanna give up their spots to the less-than-stellar, making the raids more challenging then they need to be. If these raiders similarly needed something, then they certainly would be sticking around. As the resident prot pally - I have the burden of sitting through tons of trash waves, where a number of ppl quit trying hard, and the others still suck.

As a former officer, and formally the most established, in a pretty established guild on my server, I decided to step down from the position due to the fact that my RL situation has required me to spend less time in the management of the guild that I feel is required to do a good job, and be of service to the members. Now, no longer an officer, I see the guild straying from our vision quite frankly in a short period of time. Some of the things are : much less communication with the guild members, raids starting late - like on the order of 30 minutes, and some more obvious favortism rules in place. I am curious on what, if anything, you recommend I do because I know our guild membership has stuck around (some for 3 years +) because we ran a tight ship, and were always fair...and I see things diverging from our previous core principles which made us survive the ages.

Our guild has been relatively successful in recruiting over the years, not to say that we havent had our ups and downs, so as 1 of the 5 tanks that we have (and the only pally tank, other 4 are 2 warriors, 2 feral druids) I have decided to be in control of my raid days, instead of being at the whim of the officers who make the raids. I generally did this to have better flexibility in my work schedule, where I am a relatively senior guy at a large company. our guild raids 4 nights a week, where I guarantee myself available a minimum of 2 nights - sometimes 3 (averaging closer to 2 nights). For the others tanks, they generally will similarly raid 2-3 nights as well (probably average closer to 3, but still below 3), depending on which content we happen to be on for the night. My 1 less night is generally the first night of farmed content where I dont really need anything - except you can imagine hyjal where I really dont need anything, but am expected to go.

I feel that because I set my raid days, as opposed to having them set by the guild officers, they see me as a part time raider, and thus think that I dont deserve the best of the best stuff.
Skill wise and preparation wise, I think that I have set an example of excellence to the guild in the past of timeliness, readiness (consumables and knowing strats), and also being able to recover when situations go bad. Today is the same, with my readiness on TS, repaired and in the instance with plenty of time before the raid continues.
My question is: am i getting what I deserve since I generally tank 1 night less than my peers?

I have utilized your "Speed and Efficiency" technique recently on last Monday's raid, and we were able to down 7 bosses in BT/Hyjal (4/5 Hyjal, 3/9 BT) undermanned (23 in raid) in 4 hours. I no longer typically raid lead, but decided to take the con since our regular raid leader, and main progression tank was on vacation.
The normal dps slackers picked up their game, and dominated the whole night, as I expected - since I vocalized my expectations for the night. How do we keep this kind of inertia, especially since I usually dont lead the raids anymore?

This is in regards to an officer of my guild, who is our main tank, applying to a different guild on his alt, what was said on his application, and how I should react to it.


Our guild is 3/6 sunwell. At the time he posted his application to this new guild, on a different server, we were 2/6. We had killed both Sothrovaar (Kalecgos fight) and Brutallus within the first two weeks of Sunwell being released. We've had Illidan on farm since our first kill in mid-December.

We started having problems on Felmyst, though, and stalled on him for nearly a month. It wasn't so much the fight, either, but a lot of our core raiders were getting burnt out on the game. We had a few people quit the game permanently, some were very important (offtanks, healers), and more quit raiding for a while. It hurt the guild a lot, but after some zerg recruiting and throwing Tier 6 at the new recruits we were back in full swing and killed Felmyst.

During this time, apparently, he applied to another Sunwell guild on his Shadow Priest alt... and was accepted. He transferred his priest off our server and changed his name.

Even in his application he voiced his distaste in the lack of progression the guild was having.
I'm frankly very tired of my guild's situation and am no longer happy with being there. I thought a lot about whether or not I would keep my warrior as my main if I left the server and decided that I just would not want to be an OT and chose to instead take my priest shadow and begin gearing him up.
Since then, his attendance has been pretty shoddy. He only comes to farm content and only when we absolutely beg him to. There could be no other tanks online that are geared for the fight and it still takes some prodding to get him to log onto his Warrior. When it comes to progression fights.. we need him. It's sad, but true. We have had no luck recruiting Sunwell-prepared tanks. Our off tanks threat is nice, when they are geared for the encounter, but aside from our Bear they're just not up to snuff yet.

When we bring him in on Progression fights (which, you know, a Main Tank should be going to) he will come in for one or two learner fights then disappear. Often because of an important phone call. This happens quite consistently, though.

From the date an officer from the guild he applied to green-lighted his transfer until fairly recently, his computer was broken and he could not raid with us. He didn't come back until we killed Felmyst and, like I said, his attendance has been pretty hit-or-miss since then. The past two weeks he has tanked our pre-sunwell farm content once, and that was because our new warrior tank seems to think that shears are delicious.

Our guild is pretty laid back with our alts, though. One of our top warlocks had a rogue alt who was the officer/raid leader of one of the baby guilds on our server (it was in SSC/TK). He raided with them while still raiding with us and we had no problems with it. The difference with this, though, is that the warrior expressed in his application that he would not be off tanking for our guild if he no longer continued his warrior as his main.. which has pretty much become the case based off his actions recently.

I'm sure there are a lot of things I'm missing, though, since I am only a casual raider in the guild (I, too, was one of those burnt out around the time sunwell came out, I also had a lot of real-life issues come up, although I've continued to raid as have most the others, just on a more laid back schedule).

Story over.. What should I do? Should I tell another officer? The way our guild is set up, we have no guild leader. Leadership is shared between the four officers, each do their own little thing. Two take turns leading raids, two are recruitment officers. Aside from that, they share the rest of the duties.

07-03-2008, 03:34 AM
Very nice, again, Ciderhelm. It's very interesting to hear the questions from other Guild Leaders and how so very often, the issues are similar.

You said there was a post or blog on tank burnout?
Could I have the link to that? Thanks!


07-03-2008, 08:13 AM
Listening to the podcast while I type this up. Really enjoying it, thanks again Cider!

As for the talents/respeccing question; there is a mod out on curse its called Talented. I personally haven't used it but I have a few guildies who do and love it.

Talented | World of Warcraft Addons | World of Warcraft @ Curse.com (http://wow.curse.com/downloads/details/9159/)

07-04-2008, 01:03 AM
Still listening but thought I'd throw my two cents in about dkp sites. We use gsDKP BETA v1.16.1 - World of Warcraft (Wow) FREE Raid & DKP Manager (http://www.gsdkp.com), I'm sure there are others out there and I don't know how flexible gsdkp it, but it does what we need it to. I'd suggest registering, adding some "fake" members and then seeing if it allows you to do what you want to.

Signup process, while I see the motivation behind a non-signup process and I'm sure it works best in an ideal situation, often we (as a more casual guild) are not in an ideal situation and I'll offer the system that we use as an alternative. It's an online system which does not suffer from "first come first serve" problems and allows acceptance of balanced groups. We use phpraider (online system) and the aim for us to accept raids 12-24 hours beforehand, if the group isnt right for the planned raid, the location/bosses are changed. Phpraider means that everyone signs up as available or not available (with an option for comments - about possiblity of being late, current spec etc etc) and the raidleader accepts people into the raid (when this system runs smoothly acceptance happens the night before or the morning before the raid, and raiders know to have signed up by then), those not accepted but signed as available are expected to be online at invite time in case of replacements. Theoretically this allows us to cancel raids a while beforehand if it really looks like the numbers aren't going to happen - ie. lots of people who have signed as unavailable, although more often we try to run and make up the numbers at invite time.

woohoo - made it through - seriously worth listening to, as always.

07-05-2008, 12:55 AM
Dear Cider,

Hey there. I listened to the podcast, and I found most of it very interesting. I do have a variance of opinion regarding the raid signups, and something to gain your opinion on.

I agree that the "first come, first served" basis for forming a raid is the worst idea ever.

I would like to present another context for you to consider. Let us say the web-based signups for raids were not on a first come, first served basis. Rather, the approvals are all by raid leader's discretion. The raid schedule for the next week is posted by the wednesday prior. All the 25-man and most challenging (progression) content is frontloaded on reset and when attendance is the highest. Basically, using raid signups as described above would prove to be more of a better organizational and communicative tool, would it not? After all, the raiders are pretty much pre-picked so invites are a breeze, and any individuals who are late beyond what a particular guild tolerates (if at all), then the next best canditate able to fulfill the duties/role of that spot is selected.

I realize that each guild in and of itself is different, and some things that work great with one group of individuals fails dismally with another. My guild is already using its own methods, but I would like to pick your brain.



07-05-2008, 12:12 PM
I use talented too when I respecc back and forth a lot. However, I also use Simple Action Sets(SAS) Simple Action Sets | World of Warcraft Addons | Curse (http://www.curse.com/downloads/details/2318/) to place my buttons after all my talented skill disappear. You can save different sets of buttons and then place them anytime you want. You can even make a set while arms, respecc and then use it to place your prot talents.

07-07-2008, 12:55 PM
I’ve been lurking long enough now and have been an avid fan of the podcast for its entirety so I thought I should step out of the shadows.

I am the raid leader for a “casual-progression” guild on the Ysera PvE realm horde side. My raid experience goes through the first couple bosses in each wing of naxx prior to BC and I have lead raids from KZ to Hyjal now in my current position.

With regard to web based signups vs on-demand invites for forming raids, I feel both are suited to different levels of guild intensity and content level. Prior to BC in my hardcore raiding days, we did on-demand invites and while they were ideal for composing a raid that was Min/Max tailored to the encounters we would be seeing, it was in the long run detrimental to the guild due to its demoralizing effects to the more fringe/hybrid specced individuals. We were, however, a hardcore guild with not too many issues w/ recruiting, so if you did not fit the mold spec-wise or gear-wise, it was your own damn fault really that you did not get an invite.

In this day and age in a more relaxed and “casual” setting, I have found web based signups (via PhP Raider as mentioned in an earlier response) to be the ideal method for our invite policy. Since you can specify the allotted numbers of each role necessary for the raid (Tanks/DPS/Heals) it cuts down on the “oh my, we have 10 tanks signed up” syndrome. All our members sign up as available and from that pool we pick the people who will be coming to the raid and confirm them. This is in essence the same as on-demand invites with the added convenience of knowing whether or not one should expect a spot raiding on any given night. We also use this method of invites to tally who is being sat and how often in efforts to get all our raiders rotated in as evenly as possible. This system works primarily because it is not critical that we be on the bleeding edge of progression and using this method it has taken us roughly 3 months to progress from Farming KZ to downing Gruuls/Mag, ¾ TK, 5/6 SSC and now 2/5Hyjal

07-28-2008, 02:47 PM
Good pod cast!

Guild relations 7 where r u!? :D

07-28-2008, 02:56 PM
are the podcasts no longer syncing with itunes? i enjoyed having that option so i could just get them automatically and listen to them as i was able.

01-28-2010, 12:24 AM
Please Cinder could you continue this podcast?