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Ciderhelm
07-01-2008, 02:20 PM
The thread, Tanks that only log in for 25-mans (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/raid-leadership-management/38108-tanks-only-log-25mans.html), caught my eye this afternoon. This was posted in our Guild Relations forums and concerned situations where gearing players have difficulty getting guildies and friends to tank for them.

I'm sympathetic on both ends, because I know it is rough to be the player looking for a tank. Like many thread respondents, I've been in the situation of turning down those players.

Let's start with the assumption that tanking attracts a certain type of person. The quarterback. The infantryman. I reject the idea that most tanks in WoW are people who want to be Boy Scouts who protect people; instead, I find most effective tanks are highly motivated, skilled, and thoughtful people who want to get the job done. It's been a long-running discussion that main tanks are also more likely than others to be raid leaders and, in some cases, guild leaders of very effective guilds. This certainly isn't always the case, but it points to an underlying attraction.

For me, I rolled a Warrior because I wanted to deal damage and be effective in PVP. I stayed a Warrior because I fell in love with raid tanking after watching and talking with Miyu, a tank on my server who taught and inspired me. What attracted me, like many other tanks, was the chance to take my gameplay to the next level, to take on the role of controlling chaos and the responsibility where even small mistakes on my part would inevitably wipe the raid. I thrive in that kind of pressure. That is the attraction of being a tank.

Single-party instances don't bring that kind of enjoyment. They are relatively inconsequential, even while leveling. In the worst case, they become wipe-til-you-get-it-right-or-the-warlock-pisses-you-off endeavors. In the best case, they're 30 minutes that I could spend enjoying the scenery of Shattrath (or in previous days, Ironforge). In either case, after I've spent a month looking at a 5-man zone, I become more worried about my own stress and burnout levels than I do about helping others gear up.

Tank burnout isn't unique to Warcraft, but rather to the MMO genre. It also isn't true for everyone -- there are many tanks I've seen who tirelessly run instances over the years. The reason for this post is to bring up a discussion point -- is there something in WotLK which might break this cycle? Is there something Blizzard can do to break this dynamic?

ebs2002
07-01-2008, 03:10 PM
to take on the role of controlling chaos and the responsibility where even small mistakes on my part would inevitably wipe the raid.
That there is the crux of it. Most people who become main tanks are alpha-dogs, thrill-seekers, and highly motivated. This doesn't apply to every MT, of course, but it does apply to most of the tanks I've known in 7 years of EverQuest and however many years of WoW that I've been playing. Some observations:

If a DPSer is or isn't at the top of their game, it rarely will wipe the raid. If a healer gets disconnected or dies during a fight, the raid can often compensate. If the main tank dies, or a key off-tank dies, it's usually a wipe (Gruul and Void Reaver notwithstanding...)

Main tanks are excitement-seekers. Main Tanks will be the first in their guild to get together a Magister's Terrace group when Sunwell comes out, and then be the first in their guild to run Heroic Magister's Terrace.

Main tanks are dedicated. When there's a drop they want from a heroic zone, they're clearing it every single day until it drops. They're grinding every daily every day to get their SSO rep up to buy that new piece of gear. They clear Kara every week to farm enough badges to keep them at the top of their game. When a Main Tank wants something, he gets it.

Because of all the adrenaline a main tank gets when he loots Moroes after still not seeing the Pocket Watch after 47 Kara runs and counting, the high blood pressure sustained from needing to shield block every single shear or the raid wipes, and the number of badges he had to farm to be the best tank he could be for his guild, he needs his down-time. Also, after 22 runs of Heroic Mech before he got his sun-eater, it would take the pope himself to get him back in that zone.

If his progression has stonewalled, he's going to switch to PvPing, DPSing, or an alt for that new excitement. Tanking old things are boring and the only reason the tank even does these (usually) is because he needs something from it, or someone convinced him to help them out.

This isn't so much a problem that Blizzard can fix, because it's not a problem with the game, it's a personality trait of the people who gravitate to the Main Tank role.

As a MT, whenever people give me grief, I tell them to pug the tank, since I had to pug my DPS and healer for 75% of my badges :p

Muffin Man
07-01-2008, 03:14 PM
Since hitting lvl 70 about 2 weeks ago. I've only tanked one instance, that was bf for a bunch of 60's who begged me after losing their tank for some reason (no they weren't bad).

Part of this is because of tanking burn out, well more specifically general instance burnout. I ran both caverns of time and the only upgrades I got were a bow with more stamina than my throwing weapon and the quest rewards. So running instances for gear got a little tedious for me, while at lvl 70 I could just buy pvp gear.

Also I feel that there's a huge gap between the sub-70 instances and the lvl 70 instances. After I finished Black Morass, sporting warchief's shoulders and andormu's tear. I really wanted to run SV to get the Myrmidon's Headdress. But I failed the gearcheck the healer did. My understanding is I wasn't geared for any of the lvl 70 instances either. Let along heroics or Kara, which I was looking forward to doing when I hit 70. That was a little discouraging, so instead, I respecced fury to get the dailies done, explore the zone's I haven't quested in, grind rep, ect.

Coming back to pvp, the pvp world really opens up at lvl 70. Arena is available now, and there are a lot of warriors there, partly because warriors are popular, partly because warriors really shine in arena. So I wanted to experience 'new' content. The battlegrounds likewise undergo a huge change (horde is severly outnumbered all the time :mad:).

Having said all that, I'm starting to miss tanking. As for what Blizz could do to keep the game fresh for tanks? Maybe make it easier to quest/solo as protection. I almost exclusively leveled 62 - 70 in dungeons, which is probably why I wanted a break so badly (before that I was leveling/tanking as an arms warrior so questing/pvp/tanking was all the same to me).

@ebs2002: I think you've got it pretty well covered. I've noticed that I'm much more obsessive about grinding rep / running things for better loot than my friends that play the game. And this could be totally unfounded, but I feel that the gear requirements on a tank are much stricter than on the other classes (given the number of times my healer has been a SPriest without a wipe, I'm gonna include healers here too). Of course I'm not into the really hard content yet either.

Roana
07-01-2008, 03:17 PM
I think what you'd really need to do to address burnout issues (not tanks, but in general) is to enhance the replay value of the game. Right now we have the problem of planned obsolescence, where each level/tier of content is outdated by the next one, combined with the fairly rigid limitations of instance play (and not just tanks -- frostbolt spam is not all that exciting).

It is not very hard to get to the point where you feel as though you're participating in an assembly line rather than playing a game.

I'm not sure I know how to fix that, though. :)

Vissara
07-01-2008, 03:58 PM
I think a lot of the burnout comes from the fact that, as warriors, we have to spend countless hours getting the gear, the badges, the rep, and everything else to get to whats needed for content. Many of the other classes its not so set in stone where you need to be gear wise to start raiding. I know I've spent hours upon hours running pugs and raids learning the content and working on gear. The biggest reason why is that my guild isn't as motivated as I am. We're only just now starting Kara despite all my attempts over the past year to get us moving.

I started this guild and we've grown. There's not a leadership issue, its an issue of motivation and interest. I can plan events all day long and folks will come out, but its not as fun when people aren't really interested or motivated. We have several who log on to do dailies and pvp for a while and thats it. You just can't make people want to raid, you can't make people want to progress.

I have to say though, the three biggest reasons for my burnout is:

#1 I want to see more content, stuff I haven't been through nearly every day for the past year. I want to see more 25 man and upper tier content. Its gotten to the point where even doing the Heroic Daily just doesn't interest me any more. I'm ready to move on and do more, but that would more than likely require me to leave my guild behind.

#2 I've run into such a problem with groups not paying attention to what they're dpsing, their positioning, and what they're supposed to be CCing. Case in point; today I did H UB for a friend and had to wait on them to get someone in the group a few points of rep so he could buy the key, then had to deal with him insisting on dpsing the off target so he could trap it even after I specifically told him not to worry about trapping unless I told him to.

#2 Several members of my guild refuse to pug anything. They don't do anything except pvp unless I'm on. No matter how much I encourage them to run instances when I'm not around or busy, they insist that I have to go with them. For the life of me I can't figure out why. I help as much as I can, but there's only so many runs I can do, there's only so much time I can put in. And its gotten to a point where whenever I log in I feel guilty if I say no to a run when I'm trying to accomplish something. When a group expects you to be available for whatever they want to do and refuse to do anything without it gets to the point of frustration and general dislike of 5 mans.

I rolled my warrior for the guild. We didn't have any tanks at the time. We had interest then in endgame and progression but now that I've hit 70 and been there a while that interest is gone from the guild. I've progressed past my guild and am stuck in limbo. On each of my 70s I had to pug my way to where my gear is now, I just don't know how to get people to understand that they can't always expect me to be there and that they're just going to have to pug from time to time.

geros
07-01-2008, 04:56 PM
There needs to be more sea otters in this discussion!

I believe that if there are two talent specs available to players to swap between at any given time in wotlk, you'll have more dps warrs / holy and or ret pallies / resto and or boomkin druids / DK's willing to have a 2nd talent spec as a tanking class. The prot warriors will just more likely to be able to have a DPS spec on the side without as much hassle as you have now. They won't actually have to tank the burnout instances. Maybe the 5 man bosses will provide kittens or something too. Tanks just can't get enough kittens.

Pasucon
07-01-2008, 05:09 PM
I've had healers stick through bad groups with me, I've had tanks assist me in progressing in content when I brick-walled, and I've had DPSers willing to help me farm and do other solo activities. If those people send me a tell LF tank, they get one. Everyone else is usually replied to with a simple "no." The persistent beggars are told to "fuck off." Additional tells result in a /ignore.

I rolled my tank because I got sick of not being able to do things on my rogue. To DPS who are sick of sitting in LFG, you should roll a tank or a healer. And in my experience this is a DPSers issue; I'll gladly help gear another tank or healer, just because I know that 9/10 times they are doing something they'd rather not to help others. They are the people who allow things to get done, period.

So, to the hunter that wants me to help him farm Sonic Spear in reg SL: where were you while I was farming to gem my shit? If the answer is, "Right there with you helping!" my answer is "You got it amigo." If the answer is anything else, you sir or madame are SoL, go PuG, QQ, or DIAF, b/c IDC, I'm g2g on my rogue.... it's time to pwn some noobs in AV.

I've kind of surprised myself with how strongly I feel about this topic. It's just that the very idea that someone is entitled to the services of a tank simply because the tank is able to help is mind-boggling. It's one thing if it's a group of people who have helped the tank and supported him/her while gearing, but then the question arises: why aren't they also geared? Where were they while the tanks were paying their dues?

ps: If you are in LFG and you are LF2M tank and healz, you aren't LFM- you are LFG.

Kahmal
07-01-2008, 05:12 PM
Now that Raid Bosses drop Badges I have no need to run Heroics any longer. I'll run a heroic with friends I that I can have fun with but thats about it. After I got Shard of Contempt from Heroic MgT I've had no need to run any Heroics.

I believe Heroic Shatt Hallz and Heroic MgT are very fun to tank as a warrior, but I dont play the game to have fun on trash.

Now the last Heroic I've ran was Slave Pens for the sole purpose of Ahune!!! Most people bitch about how hard he is but I think he's an AWESOME fight. He's actually a real boss and almost gives you the same rush as a normal raid. I wish all bosses could be like this! (I'd complain about it later though cause I'd pug with noobs)

Pasucon
07-01-2008, 05:18 PM
And I just realized that I posted in the wrong thread. lol.

Concerning the burnout, I think Blizz is trying to move in the direction of allowing tanking classes the ability to do other things while tanking (ie dealing damage) and also bringing traditionally DPS classes into occasional tanking roles. The upcoming influx of Deathknights might help to alleviate the widespread need for tanks, but I doubt it; they'll all be DPS spec Deathknights.

The only way I deal with the burnout is by PvPing on my rogue.

Treenaa
07-01-2008, 05:37 PM
I can not think of anything that Blizzard could do differently that would alleviate burnout from running the same instances over and over except to introduce more content geared towards smaller groups. I know a lot of our regular raiders that are looking forward to 10 man versions of all the 25 man raids in WOTLK. I am pretty sure that some of them will never hit anything bigger than a 10 man again if it enables them to see all the content that way. It won't be as epic, the loot won't be the same, but if they manage to scale the fight mechanics down and still keep the encounters pretty similiar then it will be enough for them.

On a personal note, I have yet to decide what I want to do once WOTLK comes out. The mad rush to 80, the excitement of new instances to see. And see again and again and again and again. Right now, the only way I'll generally go into a five man is on an alt or if it's a group of people I know already know the content and pay attention to what they are doing. It's not a challenge anymore and it's not new so I like it to at least be painless. I don't think that's too selfish.

I do agree with Pasucon's comments about dps'ers that want to run stuff having a tanking or healing alt. People that take the time to learn to do different jobs well are the ones that are a pleasure to group with. They have an understanding of the encounters and appreciate what it takes to succeed and generally you can trust them to at least be paying attention to what they are doing.

Vespa
07-01-2008, 06:00 PM
I definately resonate with the comments on the personality traits of successful tanks. I'm very Type-A IRL.

My druid tanks most of the bosses in BT and I've recently been gearing up a gnome warrior tank. I love the responsibility and the rush of pulling everything off exactly right. Healers have similar responsibility, but it's shared across the healing contingent. As a tank, it's all on you.

Elyvern
07-01-2008, 08:09 PM
I don't think Primal Nethers play a big part in inducing tanks to run heroics they have no use for at this point in time. Much of my server, for example, has graduated beyond nethers and are demanding for nether vortex now. I have 10+ primal nethers sitting in my bank and maybe once every 2-3 weeks, someone would approach me to craft something with them.

The sad state of things is we're at the point where much of TBC is over (except the high-end SWP stuff) and WoltK is priming to start. Good tanks that are passionate about their role and gear have done their homework ages ago, they don't need much of anything else till WotlK. What remains are people playing alts, very casual tanks that haven't had the chance to play much - and such tanks are either undergeared, or simply not good enough or have a good attitude for what it takes to be a good tank.

Also - very few people have tanks for alts, I notice. In my guild, almost everybody has a warlock or a mage alt. Less than 5 people have tanks for alts, and out of that 5, even less are able to tank heroics even or want to tank heroics and beyond in the first place. It's come to the point that I, an alt-tank, have absolutely everything I need from Kara, every OL faction exalted, every piece of gear possible, badge gear included, short of stepping into a 25man raid.

Kazeyonoma
07-01-2008, 08:56 PM
i used to run heroics for the nethers i'll admit, but since they are bop now, people just don't ask me to craft stuff anymore because they can all get their own nether, and just find the first person who responds to their "wtb xxxxx, have nether" spam.

I don't think its a terrible change, but i admit that deterred me from running heroics anymore.

Vissara
07-01-2008, 10:34 PM
Tank burnout isn't unique to Warcraft, but rather to the MMO genre. It also isn't true for everyone -- there are many tanks I've seen who tirelessly run instances over the years. The reason for this post is to bring up a discussion point -- is there something in WotLK which might break this cycle? Is there something Blizzard can do to break this dynamic?

I know I kind of got off on a rant in my last post. After a much needed breather, I've decided to come back and put in my .02 .

I think that all the new 10/25 mans in WotLK will help and give us more options, but even in time that will wear thin. Maybe if there was more incentive to go out and run the 5 mans it wouldn't be so bad. Its bad enough running heroics now, I rarely, if ever, set foot into any reg 5 man. There's just nothing in it now. Rep, loot, you name it.

Perhaps they could even make it easier/cheaper to respec or give us more viability in other aspects of the game without having to respec. Just give me a reason to want to go back to these 5 mans after I've geared past them and some added viability, that way after a tough run I can go out and beat the crap out of people without having to spend 50g to do it.

Sickman
07-01-2008, 11:00 PM
Here's a bit of a twist. I log on to pretty much ONLY do 5-mans and Kara.:\

My tank was originally an alt. When my guild, back in May of last year or so, was in Karazhan, I played a Holy Paladin. I was there for our first Curator kill. Eventually we worked our way into Gruul's and Magtheridon's Lair. Once we started moving into SSC and TK, I got burned out healing and took a break. I worked on my Arcane Mage for a while and had fun. Then I slowly started working on my Warrior. I enjoyed Tanking so much, he became my main without hesitation. I even enjoy grinding with him more than my Mage.

Long story short, my guild has out-geared and out-progressed me. I now lead a Karazhan run every week and I also try to do a Gruul's or Magtheridon's lair run every week if I can get enough people. I don't really get to do ZA with my guild because they want nothing but Bear Runs, and I am not experienced enough in ZA to do that yet. They've brought me along to two bosses in Hyjal before just to fill a slot. Which i do enjoy, but I'm not actually being useful really. The guild no longer does SSC or TK so runs of that don't happen either.

I log on now to do Heroics and Normal instances for friends' and guildmates' alts. That's pretty much the extent of what I do on a weekly basis. I know this is the exact opposite of the thread topic, but blah I'm bored and figured I'd give an example of how the other side could feel.

.Sick

Pasucon
07-01-2008, 11:30 PM
This is going to sound like a crazy suggestion, but I think randomizing the encounters in instances (similar to the Priestess in MgT) and the rewards that accompany them could help. Say, give each instance a 25% chance to spawn one of 4 special events, with different bosses and loot to go with. Throw in some extra story scenes, and make it so that you only get one shot per run at the special event, at the end. Maybe throw in a random mini-boss in the middle, or some randomized pulls, too. I know that tanks would drive themselves crazy farming for that damned X, but in this way Blizzard could pack maximum content into a single instance without it being the same old thing over and over, and without having to build a new instance environment every 3rd boss. Of course, this is exactly the sort of hijinks that pisses some folks off, but I'd like it.

Just imagine this: you ran H-Mech again tonight for the 30th time, but to your surprise there was a new boss waiting for you at the end, with a little story scene and some shiny new toys. Maybe like a special one-time-only BoP ass enchant, or something? Or maybe he drops the key to a special instanced zone with nothing major in it, but an open bank vault for all the cool kids to use. Just being in the room makes you feel all special, because you unlocked the quest line, farmed out the special event, killed the boss in one go, and got the lucky drop. You are the man or woman. GG sir or madam!

Kwake
07-01-2008, 11:42 PM
When does burnout occur?

When the game begins to feel like work. That's how I feel about entering a Heroic nowadays. I find myself asking, "What's my motivation"? The fun-factor has been replaced by grind. When the big payoff for completing an instance is measured in the number of badges you got, there's a problem. Blizzard needs to come up with a better reward system. I honestly don't know what it is, but badges of justice just seem like an empty reward.

Maybe some kind of ladder ranking system? People are always keen on seeing their name in lights. Peer recognition seems to be as good a motivator as any. It wouldn't take long to come up with some categories. Over the course of a week the top 10 in each category could receive some type of reward. It doesn't have to be anything incredible. Just something to reach for.

Ringthane
07-02-2008, 12:01 AM
Well, I guess if tanking means you'd rather do frell-all all the live-long day while you wait for other people to meet your emotional needs and reinforce your belief that you're all that, above and beyond, the best thing since sliced bread, then I'm glad I gave up tanking.

You know, other classes do strive to be the best as well. Whether I go into an instance - ANY instance - on one of my three tanks, or as DPS (I don't have a healer), I make sure I'm ready to go before I cross the portal. I've got the best gear I can get, enough ammo, food, whatever. And yeah, sometimes I've run things I didn't need one thing from, just to help out other people, and it's frustrated me. But I did it anyway, because people were kind enough to help me when I was still leveling up and gearing up two and a half years ago.

No, nobody's expecting any of you to stoop down off your pedestals and honor us lowly mortals with your presence. But goddamn. Think about where you were the first time you logged onto this game. The first time you ran an instance. The first time you got that drop you'd been drooling over for weeks.

Too bad you're burned out. But if you continue to pay cash money to play this game, don't bitch about people asking you to play the role you've chosen to play.

World of Whiners, eh?

Kwake
07-02-2008, 12:08 AM
If you're such a bundle of awesome why do you care? It seems you burned out on your tanks for one reason or another, so I can't help but wonder what your point is.

Ciderhelm
07-02-2008, 12:10 AM
But if you continue to pay cash money to play this game, don't bitch about people asking you to play the role you've chosen to play.

I read this (in context with the rest of your post) as, "If you're paying for this game, you better damn well perform a role you don't enjoy to baby 4 under-geared alts through instances since they don't have the patience to work with a new tank who actually needs the gear and experience."

If that sounds over the top, you should probably re-read your own post. Joana said it best:

But most of the time it's not an undergeared player or two and the rest of the group composed of solid, reliable DPS and healers up to the tank's gear level, it's 4 terribly geared power-leveled alts that want you, the tank, to carry them
It isn't that running instances isn't fun, CARRYING people isn't fun.

As for this:

Think about where you were the first time you logged onto this game. The first time you ran an instance. The first time you got that drop you'd been drooling over for weeks.
The first time I did any 5-man, it was with equally geared people who were at the same point in progression. There was never a point where I tried to invite someone who was better-geared or more experienced to make a run easier. I don't see how the first time we did an instance has any relevance whatsoever to people being burned out by ferrying other people through zones month after month.


http://www.travelkamchatka.com/images/seaotter.jpg

Shortypop
07-02-2008, 12:53 AM
This really resonated with me, I hit rock bottom, as far as 5man burnout was concerned over christmas, it got that bad that I removed my little warlock who I hadn't played much at all from the guild (very early one morning when no one was on), informed the officers I was taking a break and leveled her up solo. Why? Because I was sick of feeling guilty at saying "no" to guildies who wanted me to tank "random level 70 instance" for them. It got to a stage when I couldnt log my main on, as I would spend half my time replying to both guildie and non-guildie whispers to tank something, even when on my main alt, I would feel soo incredibly guilty for not wanting to tank something - a flaw in my personality - doubtless.

My warlock is now back in the guild, and things have settled, largely since several guildies have rolled tank alts who are still fresh and eager to tank 5 mans, plus our dps warriors have good enough gear to tank 5 mans as well.

The solution - isn't clear to me, but what is important is to understand the type of person you are and notice the warning signs. I only hit 60 a few months before TBC was released, had always heard about tank burnout and wondered how it was possible that a game could burn you out that badly. Unfortunately now I know that it is not only possible but it's a horrible experience to go through, to simultaneously love and hate a game, a role and friends - coming through that makes one a stronger person, it would just be nice if you didn't have to go through it to achieve that.

Vissara
07-02-2008, 01:23 AM
Source: Ringthane
But if you continue to pay cash money to play this game, don't bitch about people asking you to play the role you've chosen to play.I read this (in context with the rest of your post) as, "If you're paying for this game, you better damn well perform a role you don't enjoy to baby 4 under-geared alts through instances since they don't have the patience to work with a new tank who actually needs the gear and experience."

If that sounds over the top, you should probably re-read your own post. Joana said it best:


Source: Joanadark
But most of the time it's not an undergeared player or two and the rest of the group composed of solid, reliable DPS and healers up to the tank's gear level, it's 4 terribly geared power-leveled alts that want you, the tank, to carry them

It isn't that running instances isn't fun, CARRYING people isn't fun.



This is a big part of why I don't enjoy 5 mans any more, or even anything thats not a badge run of Kara. People invite me all the time to run instance xyz. I spend half the day on my warrior responding with a no, because in any reg instance I'm just carrying the group. Even in my guild, with the exception of a couple, I'm just carrying the group and thats not fun. So I end up either logging out or just going /dnd on an alt.

Its not that I don't enjoy the instances, I really do. (Well most of them anyway...Mana Tombs and Crypts still suck) I love this game and I love tanking; its just that I want a reason to go back and not feel like I'm carrying the group through.

Sickman
07-02-2008, 01:31 AM
"It isn't that running instances isn't fun, CARRYING people isn't fun."

Yep.

Magnuss
07-02-2008, 05:34 AM
I have to say I really like seeing this topic up here because it relates in some way to any tank who has spent time gearing themselves in any kind of serious manner. There have been alot of good points that where brought up to talk about why we tanks raid/5-man obsessively and why we dont. In today's WoW, there is a very casual trend beginning to surface (very much on purpose from Blizzard) which makes instance grinding important, but not nearly as much as it once was.

My 70 Tauren warrior is my only character. I have no alts (not even bank ones) and have no desire to make any. I have been playing this warrior since the day of TBC release and do not intend to quit playing him or make an alt any time soon. I remember when I first hit 70 and managed to get into the top progressed guild on our server at that time it was because I was an instance machine. This is back before anyone did heroics because it was way too inconvienant to do so. We are talking about during the initial world first clearing of Karazan timeframe.

I look back on things then and recall doing 4-6 regular instances a day, which was quite the feat considering everyone was in blues and greens and barely any epic gear. I remember that in order to even get into Kara with my guild i have to have all blues and 12k HP unbuffed, as well as some of the key drops like the Devilshark cape and Shattar rep sheild. When I remember these things I also remember that they were the SOLE reason that i ran instances. I pushed through them as hard as possible, no matter how much i hated that instance just so i could get these drops to be competative as a tank for my guild/server.

Jump foreward a few months where guilds are in Kara on a regular basis but there is still an attunement factor and you have people asking me to run regular instances to get them keyd so that we can get them into Kara with the guild. This inspired me to run instances.

Jump foreward a little bit more to where I wanted to make my Breastplate of kings (10 primal nethers when they were unbuyable and non-tradable!!!). I had to run 3 heroics every single day with 2 other key players who needed the nethers as bad as i did for over 3 weeks just to get them. This is also during the timeframe where alot of crafting recipes were coming out that needed nethers and so people would sell spots in the run in order to get someone the nether they needed to make an item. This kept me busy with heroics almost daily.

Lets jump foreward again to today's timeframe. Right now the incentive you have to run regular instances is to get honored rep in order to do a heroic dungeon or to get a few drops that you may need from that area. It isnt a big deal with the drops though because Kara drops are much easier to get with any half decent guild (full clear PuGs everywhere) and there is no attunement to get into these raids anymore.

The incentive you have to run heroics as well as raids that you may outgear (like kara), is to get badges which you can use to buy T6 quality loot without ever having to step into a raid instance in any form or fashion.

I have gone through some long streaks throughout my time playing WoW where I did heroics/raids every second that i was online as a tank. I was sought after and i enjoyed doing them because i always had something to gain from doing it. Nowadays however, I find myself more willing to jump around Shat with my music going then i am to go and tank a heroic MgT. This is because i no longer need badges or drops from any of these instances. I kept myself going for a very long time because after all my tanking gear was complete with badge stuff, i bought dps gear and then i bought epic gems for my dps gear and then i bought nether vortexs for the guild and gems for friends and tons of other crap here and there, simply becuase i had the badges to do so.

I think that our burnout as a tank, or at very least my burnout, comes from being at a point where the only thing interesting left to do is the 25 man raids. I have all the rest of my gear that i need from instances and while i do enjoy helping out my guildmates, i enjoy more getting something for my effort. I have to say i hate dailies but since those give me money and i can always find something to buy, i do them every single day. If 5-mans and heroics in WoW still gave me those same goals they once did then i would continue to tank for them every chance i got.

I think in WotLK i will find tanking even that stuff i have done a bunch of times to be fun and interesting again because it will for one, take a long time to get rid of the "new" feeling and for two, will have lots of loot on heroic and regular difficulties well into the release of the game.

kolben
07-02-2008, 08:50 AM
I could really use some freshness in the 5-mans at this point. The only variety there seems to be in heroics is the level of gear and experience in my all-guild group. I'm pretty sure I could name every mob, tell you how many there are, and draw you a picture of their patrol in every instance in the burning crusade at this point. It's gotten a little stale.

People seem to think I'm crazy for liking the variety of the older instances. I'd love to see some profession quests and summoned bosses (a'la ancient blacksmithing), something like tribute runs, some baron runs, armor upgrade quest bosses, etc. What about rares too, I mean how hard could it be to stick a rare mob or boss in one of these new rubber stamp instances, maybe even give em a badge or a sweet piece of loot they drop.

Stograth
07-02-2008, 10:00 AM
Magnuss really hit it on the nose for me, but heres my 2cents. I dont get burnt out easily with anything, whether its with WoW(tanking, grind, instances, etc.) or IRL (my music, work, etc.) maybe im just a weirdo. I do and have done alot of things that really require repetition and developing skill of some level. I just never seem to get burnt out, thats just my personality. Ill run the same stuff over and over and over to help out the guild, i really dont care. Granted i havent been at this even half as long as most of everyone else here, but I rolled a warrior and chose to be a tank for a reason. If i do get burnt out i guess ill cross that bridge when i come to it.

ratman
07-02-2008, 11:58 AM
Maybe some kind of ladder ranking system? People are always keen on seeing their name in lights. Peer recognition seems to be as good a motivator as any. It wouldn't take long to come up with some categories.

I've always wanted to see something like this. Some kind of global/weekly leaderboard type of thing for PvE; fastest time, most runs, etc for each instance. Hell it'd be nice if it just kept track of your records privately (number of times you've killed each boss, time spent in each instance, fastest run, etc).

Not totally sure it would help out with pugs (people wanting to set records wont do it in with random people), and it might break some immersion and make the game feel more arcadey with "high scores". But I think its a good idea.

Dethtank
07-02-2008, 01:19 PM
I've always wanted to see something like this. Some kind of global/weekly leaderboard type of thing for PvE; fastest time, most runs, etc for each instance. Hell it'd be nice if it just kept track of your records privately (number of times you've killed each boss, time spent in each instance, fastest run, etc).

Not totally sure it would help out with pugs (people wanting to set records wont do it in with random people), and it might break some immersion and make the game feel more arcadey with "high scores". But I think its a good idea.

The problem would be that the same folks don't normally run 5 mans all the time. Most everyone else gets sick of them in the same time you do, its just that they then roll DPS alts that need runs through :) I know folks who have 4 DPS alts, no tank or heal alts, and they wonder why there is a shortage of tanks and healers :)

Astennu
07-02-2008, 03:32 PM
I have this problem everyday. Atm i have alot of spare time and thus i am alot online doing dailies grinding consumables etc.
During my time online i get asked to tank instances alot. Usually i get about 6 to 8 whispers every hour, sometimes a whole lot more. I always stay polite but unless im in a very good mood im not tanking any instances anymore, except for friends/guildies.

I just dont enjoy the instances anymore. I have farmed them all way too much. I am exalted with all the outland factions, got all the badge gear i need. I dont really have a reason to run them anymore, while it might be fun for random dps to rape the whole instance. I as a tank cant really do anything spectacular inside an instance more often then not ill have to scale down my gear for rage/threat. Usually i feel like a gimp. for me its just the thrill thats missing in old content. Alltho some time ago i tanked SH in dps gear and had great fun but that just isnt possible with a pug.

Finelle
07-02-2008, 07:14 PM
I have DPS alts. And then I ask... where the hell are the tank alts of the DPSers? I got every single piece of tank badge gear and every single piece of fury gear except the pants (I was 3 badges away, then I said screw this, I might as well use the badges for something remotely more productive).

I hope the DK helps address the problem. I'd like to DPS sometime and if it weren't for two of my healer friends who rolled a tank :P and a mage who rolled a healadin, I'd have no runs at all.

Sirq
07-03-2008, 01:47 AM
They say they intend to change the trees in a way so you shouldn’t have to specc that tree for that specific role, meaning prot more dmg..? Even though I have no problems what so ever doing quests or just killing mobs for primal farming, I guess it’s an ok thing to do, just to keep it interesting /hail shockwave.


As for a tanking motivation, I sole rolled a warrior tank for .. its flexibility, I guess, I’ve tanked as a druid and paladin, but I just fancy the warrior a lot, a lot more. I guess it’s mostly cus of spellreflect though :p - Also, seeing several posts about warrior tanks having trouble maintaining threat on several mobs, I find this no problem in any instance, I just ‘do my thing’, and when it comes to leading the 5man/raids, im very strict about moving fast, CC’ing fast etc. people often start out with ‘lol, it’s just a 5man/kara’ but after a couple of pulls/moroes it’s ‘nice speed’ even had a rogue wispering ‘’nice tanking dude, didn’t know people could play like that’’ which makes me wonder, cus he’s somewhat stacked in bt/mh epics, what other tanks on my server are up to in their game of the tanking role. just a bunch of slackers? or incapable of playing a decent tank atall? .. you tell me.


As for helping with gearing up people, I have no problem with it, I just enjoy to tank. although I always ask for a shaman for WF ofc.
Pugging SSC was quite funny last weekend, 1shot lurker - went for morogrim, got killed with a double crushing/hit within 5seconds of combat >_> gg, 2nd try he went down - on to karathress, also a 1 shot. this is where I also tend to raidlead a bit and keep up the pace.. to, hmm I dunno, ‘show’ the new peeps that speed is nice and effective (<3 podcasts aiite) and that they’re ought to stay awake during trash.


Dunno what else to brabble about, but in the end I think wotlk will be just fine for protwarrz

Dunmail
07-03-2008, 02:25 AM
Beginning to feel the same way as many people, I think it began once I outgeared heroics/KZ and other areas, and then needed to gear up a bit more for serious raiding.

Even running specific gear, especially for threat and lowering avoidance it feels more of a chore than entertainment, and at the back of the mind there's grumping that it's unneccessary repair bills and the one thing you may generally be after (Sun Eater - mutter) will still never drop. Whilst I could do with the badges the irritation of over/under gearing, the frustration of lack of people's situational awareness, stupid deaths/wipes, or just having a bad day.

It perhaps wouldn't be so bad if something new did pop up - frost guy in SP is a novelty, but half the heroics I detest (auchidoun/HFP), I spent most of my badge farming in Bot, with Pyhrric attempts in mech. The only interesting thing was finding the Coilfang heroics a half decent run when going back (I avoided them for months having overdosed in SP/UB levelling). It is also a little annoying not being able to use some of the goodies in the prot tree for 5man/pve, to avoid continually respeccing back to a decent raid tree. Having got to BT that compromise is likely to move me further away, which is a position most people have probably ended up in. Given WOTLK dragging it's heels in development, the need to run dailies for consumables I can hear the 'why should I bother voice' banging louder, as enjoyment is getting less and I feel more penalized for having developed my (second) character, everytime I walk in through the skull portal, with someone's alt.

Katzazi
07-03-2008, 03:15 AM
I find the toppic of this thread interresting.

My first char was a shaman which was put to heal MC the moment she hit 60 with the first horde MC raid on our server. I seldom had problems finding people for 5mans and it was fun for a while but I had problems if I was told that I need something to farm for the raid.

Just for fun I started a shadow-priest. As she hit 60 the main-raid needed more priests and I was told to specc holy. I learned to loved it. - But farming was even harder than with my shaman which I was not allowed to respec since maybe she was needed again.

I nearly never had problems getting 5mans but it was very hard to get my stuff farmed (tankes got it from the guild sometimes since they were so few). But we compensated with priest only runs in 5mans for fun. Most of our guildmates were pissed about that because they needed a healer somewhere or at least needed something from the instance we went and were told that they could not join us.

I started to play my warlock. That was fun! I could farm something else but herbals in reasonable time and survive along the way!

Then came BC.

First my warlock hit 70 since we were too many healers for lvling in 5mans. Shortly after that we started Kara and oh shit we needed 3/10 healers (going with 2 was not an option) instead of 1/5 before and I powerleveld my priest again (mostly on my own since most of my guildmates worked on the equip of their main). And I fall in love with her again. With BC it WAS possible to survive out of instances with here. And even got easier with the time.

Sometimes I got bored and started to play with my alts (warlock and now enhancement shaman). So did most of our guild. But it got harder and harder to get a group for 5mans since we had a bunch of healers and dpsers but nowhere a tank. And the pre BC option of going without them did not work as nicely. (Yes, I know where the toppic is.)

So I started a warrior and had fun leveling her tanking as furry in every instance I could get. That was a very new thrill to the game. But when I came near 70 I saw that I needed more than simply respecc to protection for going heroics where I had to go since that was the reason I had leveled her. It was a hard time and I made the switch to heroics very fast nearly on my own since there were so many who needed a tank there. (The funny thing is nearly every healer of our raid rerolled a tank around the time.) That was around christmas.

3 weeks later I was put into kara and told that I'm the new raidleader of this new raid (mostly people who just hit 70 with their first character and some alts). 2 weeks later the MT from our 25man joined the raid with his dps-alt and did me tank through kara without the help of an offtank and we had our first kara-clear with that group. I dont know how I survived that evening. That was exciting.

Well I tanked very much after that. I did kara every week since there were so many alts to equip, most of them only came for some weeks until they had their stuff and mybe joined later with an other alt. Its my only character who is exalted with every faction which has a 5man assigned. And the first with whom I learned that badges only stack to 200.

But now I find me leveling a mage after the raids instead of going into the 5mans. And I ask me "Why? I love my priest and I love my tank and I have 2 dps-alts who could need some equipment". I dont need a 5th 70.

The answer is: It simply gets boring after a while. And it is no fun to help to get the kara-attunement - again (thats the way I got exalted with keepers of time). And everybody seems to NEED this attunement even now. And most of them need the attunement to go to the hero-versions, so they can find the dps to help them get their kara-attunement since nobody likes to go normals anymore.

I hate tanking normals - at least if the healer tells me that he cannot hold me in off-gear. And it gets harder to tank heroics, too.

The thing with tanks is, if everybody else gets better equippment it gets easier to do everything. If a tank gets better equippment there is a point where it starts to get harder again since you get to few hits. And it hurts to switch back to the old stuff that you hoped to never see again.

Additionaly if your guild works hard in 25raids everybody wants to have their fun in 5mans after that. They dont want to sit around waiting for sheeps. They are bored to look at omen. They know that they can beat the big bad uglys so the heroics should be easy. Yes - but if everybody starts to aoe and pull on their own the tank has to rotate so everything stays as easy for everybody else. The healer has to stay allert, too, but at least his equipemt will help him there. You cannot find the excitement of the above kara-raid in 5mans (anymore).

The other problem is, if I'm on my tank (or my priest but on a less frequent number) I get so many questions if I would not love to go into somethig from normals up to kara/ZA/Gruul from people who just need a tank (or healer) to go there. (Yes, there are the calls in LfG "MT and healer for kara/ZA needed - we are rdy to go then" and sometimes even for Gruul.) But I cannot help everybody. I dont like to tell them "no" again and again. So it gets easier to just level the alt but to handle their dissappointment again. It is hard to tell someone that you will not help him because you help someone else. Even if the reason is the other guy just was faster.

And at least with me thats one of a reasons why I dont do PUGs anymore with my healer or my tank. I get too many invitations for them. Even if I dont have one at the moment I know I will be asked soon from somebody I could not help the last time he asked. And most times PUGs dont even give me nothing I need but there will be some whipes so I will leave the instance with less gold then I entered it.

Katzazi
07-03-2008, 06:02 AM
I just thought about it some more. Maybe my above mention numbers have something to do with the problem, too. Since everybody has some ambitions with their chars.

For 25mans you have a tank:heal:dps-ratio of about 3:8:14
For 10mans its 1:2:7 up to 2:3:5
For 5mans its 1:1:3
For PVP its 0:something:mass

So there will be about 1 tank to maybe 2 healers and a bunch of dps who have chances to reach something with their character. There are less tanks per dps in 25 than there are needed for 5*5mans. So who wants to work hard on a tank if he does not have the chance to do something serios with him? Nearly everybody will be drawn to do something else with him. Druids and palas have good options as healers (and druids as dps). Warriors are searched for in PVP. So why bother with a character which cannot farm or PVP (ok ferals can) if the only other option is 5mans?

nobel
07-03-2008, 09:23 AM
Interesting topic.. im sure every tank has felt this at some point.. BC for myself was really where my brick wall started. I tanked pre BC and enjoyed it thoughly.. i lvled a rogue and didn't even think twice about who to raid with.. warrior all the way. BC hit and i lvled my warrior first and played him for the most part.. i think im exalted with ever faction in BC but mybe the sporethings.. i was the only active tank in my guild at the time so.. was not hard. I switched over to my rogue becuase of drama and it gave me a opporunity to play another class.. i slowly switched back to my warrior tho..

Atm, I find myself now just kinda not caring anymore.. i use to have a sence of accomplishment when killing boss and i actually tried in 5 mans.. now i can't be bothered with them... and killing bosses in raids meh could care less..i honestly don't know if its burn out or just the fact that i would rather just not go.. i use to get excited about raid time.. now i log in 5 mins before..

Some times i look back at screen shots to try to reguvante my spirt in a way.. thinking man i miss those days, i no longer run as a MT really anymore.. on some bosses i do but even still i find my TPS slacking and im half paying attention or just doing enough to get the job done.

All and all i really think its the way the game is designed.. you grind for everything.. crafting is a joke other then a couple peices so what you are left with is just grinding and this in turns leads to burnout.

Will WoTLK solve it.. imo no. Every game has its far share of grinding to complete tasks.. its just really the nature of it.. the point is when it lacks the fun factor then you simply don't do it, this in turn leads to bordum and then burnout.. i think they should be used in the same breath as well and are directly linked..

What i do think is interesting about WoTLK and will definally shead some light on the situation is the 10/25 mans that they are doing. Lets face it.. its fun being in bigger raids.. i myself get more enoyment out of having 9/or 24 other people with me.

Burnout is the nature of the beast and is not just related to tanking.. WoTLK is on the hoizon and i have noticed less people logging on im my guild and when people do they do dailies and log off.. same thing happened with BC and i think will continue to happen

Nebaioth
07-03-2008, 12:14 PM
Nothing burns me out faster than being whispered by someone needing a tank and then running/flying/summoning to the group only to be told I'm not geared well enough, by people wearing full pvp purples. I've even entertained the idea of slapping on a few pieces of S1 to get in the door, obviously swapping back out once inside. Aside from badge loot, I have most of the best pre-Kara tanking gear, but still find it hard to get into heroics. So many players want to be carried through by a tank who couldn't possibly benefit from running the instance they're in.

Also wearing on my patience, pvp geared warriors that think socketing stamina gems will allow them tank better than the next guy with 500 defense, 14.5k armor, and a green belt. :o

Urhan
07-04-2008, 06:59 AM
Tank burnout isn't unique to Warcraft, but rather to the MMO genre. It also isn't true for everyone -- there are many tanks I've seen who tirelessly run instances over the years. The reason for this post is to bring up a discussion point -- is there something in WotLK which might break this cycle? Is there something Blizzard can do to break this dynamic?

Here's a way to do that:

Stop making us a requirement for every damn instance.

Seriously, is it that hard to think up tactical situations that don't entail one or more things beating on one player while the other players kill the attackers and/or heal the guy taking the beating? Of course not. Non-MMO games do it all the time.

I'm not sure why Blizzard's level designers are locked into designing everything around a tanking-healing-dps triad. But the end result is burnout among the high-demand, less-played classes. Just give us a few instances where you don't need a tank (or can go without healing) and that'll take some of the pressure off. Yeah, there'll still be tank-required instances that people will need to run to get specific gear, but letting Alty McHunter do his rep grinding (with the new tabard system) and/or badge farming in a place that doesn't require tanking isn't going to break the game.

Katzazi
07-04-2008, 07:37 AM
Before BC it was possible to do most 5mans with 5 cloth-wearers in blue. Yes you needed some strategy but it was doable and it was fun doing so. With BC you dont need the real tank for most parts of the instance (or maybe not the healer) but most Bosses hit much harder than before BC. I think some of them are doable without a tank Sethek, ZH even in hero mode but you need realy good players with some equip for that so most groups will need the tank.

They did something like an event without a tank in the new sunwell-5man. But its hard to do everything else without one. And even there you need a healer.

Btw: I would not like to have instances without the possibility of a tank-slot. Since tanks would never see those instances if they only would be a burden who cannot help with dps.

Toniblade
07-04-2008, 10:17 PM
I'm a fairly recent tank burn out. For the last 18 months I've been MT of a guild, from Kara to BT (we were working on Kalegos when I couldn't take it anymore).

5-man wise, I don't think I've done a run with non-guildies for over 12 months. And even then , I usually only ran with real life friends.

I'm not sure what is required to make tanks last longer - certainly the lure of future loot couldn't hold me, the complexity of the fights only made me dread, not look forward to the Sunwell fights. We've all had our share of people who were not capable of carrying out the tasks required in these fights.

I think it was the time commitment - 4 nights a week, 4+ hours a night just for the raiding (not counting farming, pvp/arena, etc), and as MT I had to be there, couldn't take a night off, couldn't run as DPS (every single time I'd sign on a dpser on a kara-farm run the tanks wouldn't show and I'd have to do it). Between work and role, no time for a life.

Creampuf
07-06-2008, 04:50 PM
The answer to what Blizzard can do to address the issue is to make those instances be potentially rewarding to the tank. Let's face it, if you're MT'ing, or even OT'ing, 25-mans, you need nothing from an instance run, and the badge gear is probably rarely worth the time.

Set up some badge gear upgrades that work similarly to Arena gear. Have gear items that are only purchasable if your current gear level is above a certain level. Have the badge count be high enough to make the 25-man ready players still work for them. But not so high that they're much more likely to get any particular up-grade through raiding rather than instance runs.

It would take some balancing, but it would make instances more attractive to those who raid.

Heck, I'm only in ZA now, but already there's little reason for me to go into 5-mans. I need 2 or 3 more pieces, but I'll have those in 3-4 weeks at the rate I'm going. After that, there's nothing for the content I'm doing or have my eye on that I need. At some point I'll probably want some of the reisist pieces, but right now I see no reason for them.

Joeker
07-07-2008, 02:02 AM
I will say I am not an A type personality. I don't relish being in charge. Some one has to do it though. But it does not mean I have to do it every day all day. I raid tank that is what I do. I no longer enjoy doing 5 mans. The only time I run a 5 man now is if it was with the people who helped me get my shard of contempt after 25 runs. If they asked I would do it in a heart beat. But if you are not willing to help me why oh why should I help you. Were you there when I was pugging to get my Kara key? Where were you when I was running Arc to get my chest? What about where were you when I was doing my dailies so I could afford flasks for the raid? If you were one of those people who opened trade with me and gave me money or sent me food in the mail then you bet your ass that I will be there to tank what ever you need. If you are one of those people who only wants me to tank for you so you can get that rare drop and refuse to help me in any way then you are not likely to get a yes from me. Tanking has been the most rewarding way to play for me. But why should I always have to sacrifice the time I have to farm and make money for repairs to run someones alt through Kara or a Heroic. I have helped on those endless wipe fest from Kara to BT/Hyjal. But I will never be guilt tripped in to tanking anything. Most of my guildies know it is a rare event for me to tank a 5 man any more so they jump at the chance to go when I do. The only reason I run 5 mans any more is so that I can finish off the exalted run for the free flasks. After that I will no longer run them. I do know what it is like to see several people get their alts as geared as your tank. I am in the same boat. My guildies are able to take alts in to TK and SSC now. My hunter is far from it. His loot may be epic but I rarely get to play him as we raid all the time. Now that I have finally reached that point I just like to talk on vent while others go though an instance. I tell them to give the tank that may not be geared like me a chance. Because we all started somewhere. But some of the comments on here have me worried. When you expect people to tank for you and you demand it of them you are only going to push them further away from wanting to help you. If you can get a good relationship going with a tank then you will be most likely to get a run from him/her.

On a side note I hate when people tell tanks they are under geared for an instance run. When my guild got it's first VR kill I was still wearing my Shoulderguards of the Bold and Felsteel helm and gloves. We made it through just fine. Now look at me I raid tank T6/

Fyran
07-07-2008, 05:56 AM
I think the Burnout isn't something only tanks are encountering. Well, we may be encountering it harder or earlier, but I think it's something that can be found throughout the whole WoW community.

Personally, I think it has a lot to do with "welfare" epics and grind mentality. There's no such thing as the wish for a particular loot to drop, since you can reach almost everything by just farming and grinding. What happened to the good 'ole MC and BWL days? Days you joined a raid hoping for that particular item to finally drop. You were motivated because the moment you finally had it drop made you feel proud. You earned it.

Now, all you do today is grind and farm and calculate how much more time you'll spend farming badges till you're "done" - done with the game until other upgrades await. And there's another problem WoW has today; too much content coming ahead. Back in pre-BC days, you knew (or thought, for that matter) your T1/2 would stay with you a looong time. With full T1, you felt as if you really achieved something, put a few T2 or even T3 pieces into that and you were freaking happy 'bout it.
Again, today you can be sure, there's going to be an update sooner or later, making everything earned before obsolete. So, either you farm every new badge upgrade that's coming out - or you begin to question if that's all worth it. I mean, where's the sense?

Give the community something to wish for, something to hope and work for. But not again something that's a "save drop" due to grinding and farming. I lost my hunter's motivation while starting out MH/BT - knowing that all the gear would be obsolete 5-10 levels later and also knowing, that most of the upgrades were save and would just take some grinding.



Just imagine, for me, it feels like the difference between working to finally buy a mobile phone, a playstation, whatever you like (just keep it low - no houses or something like that :D) - and the anticipation and hope that weekly gets the best of you if it comes to playing lottery. Lottery is more fun. At least to me.
WoW loot once was some kind of high-chanced lottery. With badges and honor -> PvP Items it became work. Work also doable by "casuals", but not nearly as motivating as the lottery (and even ranking system!) before..

Smaken
07-07-2008, 08:13 AM
I've kind of surprised myself with how strongly I feel about this topic. It's just that the very idea that someone is entitled to the services of a tank simply because the tank is able to help is mind-boggling.


ps: If you are in LFG and you are LF2M tank and healz, you aren't LFM- you are LFG.

That ps = My new sig on my guild's website.

tPaste
07-07-2008, 10:02 AM
Stop making us a requirement for every damn instance.

This is interesting, and I like it, but Blizzard would probably screw it up by putting the best tanking items in the instances where tanks aren't needed.

tPaste
07-07-2008, 01:22 PM
I think shorter instances might help a bit.

rawdoggy
07-07-2008, 04:14 PM
My tanking burnout is happening right now. Here i am in full badge and t4 with nothing to do but sit on my butt and wait to see if the right people decide to log on for 25 mans. I want to see something for a prot speced warrior to do other than dungeons, I despise PvP because I enjoy the gear and capabilities of being prot and there just isnt a use for that in anything other than dungeons. Ive respeced a few times to try Prot/fury and even MS but its just not as fun for me. Lets see a talent build for a prot geared warrior to put to use in PvP (and more importantly) some freaking gear to work towards in it. sux to get face roll face roll caster killed you over and over

nobel
07-08-2008, 07:51 PM
Personally, I think it has a lot to do with "welfare" epics and grind mentality. There's no such thing as the wish for a particular loot to drop, since you can reach almost everything by just farming and grinding. What happened to the good 'ole MC and BWL days? Days you joined a raid hoping for that particular item to finally drop. You were motivated because the moment you finally had it drop made you feel proud. You earned it.


Agree.. with basically your entire statement but this caught my attention.. I remember walking around in t1 and later t2 and t3 thinking i was the f'n shit..

Cloak
07-09-2008, 08:26 AM
There's usually one or two highly-motivated tank in every raiding guild who will run the hell out of 5-mans or 10-mans, even with a tremendous amount of quality gear already, just for that one item they would really like - main spec or even off spec.

Every raiding guild has a handful, give or take, of those kinds of players though, not just tanks.

But the raid tank burnout is real, especially if you're pretty well progressed. I created an alt warrior tank just for this reason - to go into those 5-man normals and now, 5-man Heroics, and OT'ing (and hopefully MT'ing soon!) Karazhan, just for that reason.

It's nice to have a tanking option for an alt, for many reasons - some more personal (new challenges, learning, variety of play), some more guild-related (raid tank burnout & tank availability).

It's nobody's fault, it's just the way it is. Everyone burns out, we all need a break sometimes, some more than others. And this has always been more true for tanks and healers - every role has pressures and can be demanding, including dps, but it's typically highest overall for the tank and healer roles.

However, there will always be some demand for smaller raids and 5-mans (whether for your mains or your alts), and if you enjoy that sort of smaller-scale content and learning other roles in the game (and I really do), it's a good idea to raise an alt tank and/or alt healer.

Naissa
07-12-2008, 03:45 AM
#2 Several members of my guild refuse to pug anything. They don't do anything except pvp unless I'm on. No matter how much I encourage them to run instances when I'm not around or busy, they insist that I have to go with them. For the life of me I can't figure out why. I help as much as I can, but there's only so many runs I can do, there's only so much time I can put in. And its gotten to a point where whenever I log in I feel guilty if I say no to a run when I'm trying to accomplish something. When a group expects you to be available for whatever they want to do and refuse to do anything without it gets to the point of frustration and general dislike of 5 mans.


This is something I'm experiencing at the moment. Nobody wants to do heroics without me. Or rather the few people that do, they have issues finding a tank. I'm not my guild's main tank, but my gear is pretty close to his. He is almost never on aside from raid times and late at night, so he can't run the heroics, and other tanks seem more interested in doing AV than doing heroics.

I could run 5-mans forever and have fun with it. Most tanks don't seem to feel the same way. I can't even tell you how many times I've done Heroic Underbog. And its still fun.

jfalcon
07-15-2008, 10:42 AM
I, as my guild main tank, am willing to help anyone in my guild who is willing to help themselves first. The issue I have is that i am constantly busy, i have events and runs planned days if not weeks in advance. You can not just come online and say hey can you come tank for me... the answer is no, no matter how much I would enjoy helping becuase i already have comitments to someone or some other group.

Its not that I am trying to be mean... or that i don't want to help but that i only have so many hours in my day... Try scheduling something with your favorite tank in advance... Or ask when would you have time to do X. I think you will find you have a better response.

And if you don't, roll a tank... and do it better, faster, cleaner than the last guy!

Rootkitworm
09-01-2008, 12:16 AM
This is a good topic, and it made me happy to read most of this long thread. There is a lot of good psychology going on that I agree with about tanking rolls and how WoW can become too much grinding and whatnot to the point of mental exhaustion. As the MT of my guild, I definitely do play too much and grind too much. But this is the reason I am the MT as well. I am at crossroads where I don't like to PVP or do dailies for gold. I do not like respeccing for PVP, and I always get owned by stupid frost mages or druids when I do try in dps gear as prot, and it isn't fun for me at that point - only aggravating because I always picture some little kid on the other side having his giggles at my frustrations. I have always been one for dungeons and PVE content, because I like RPG's and that sort of thing. PVP would be a good outlet from tanking if I enjoyed it, but I find it even more repetitious and boring, and even more frustrating then wiping over and over on an actual boss like Archimonde. I would rather play Day of Defeat or some first person shooter than PVP. Dailies are also boring and very repetitious to me, and I can't find myself doing them even if I need the gold. I would rather run Heroics over and over then do that stuff.

I personally think tanks should get better loot than the rest of the raid. As in, only we can receive the loot or something like that. Or maybe their is a pot of "tank gold" at the end of the instance rainbow. I feel it is the most work out of any class, with healing probably right behind that. And because of that, we deserve more for our effort, as it is not recognized enough. Having to pay the price of burning out, and all the stress raids and people can put on us; having to deal with dps not paying attention when we can't afford to slack one little bit or it's ALL our fault. I can't tell you how many time I hear DPS in vent listening to music, watching TV, eating ice cream, smoking a hookah maybe, and playing WoW at the same time. Sure maybe they can still do good DPS with some macro spam with their toes, but do they pay attention enough to space and run out of doomfires on the flinch of wrist? No, generally the rest of the raid is not as intense as the MT, and it is hard for me to understand how I can get my worth out of this role with other classes not putting as much into it as tanks have to. Do they know how much attention we have to give to do our job? I feel disrespected each and every time others in parties/raids don't acknowledge how much we are participating in the game to make their night work out for them and everyone stay happy. It's just that we can't afford to slack, or Everyone dies, and then some people can become rude and progress the burnout process faster.

Rootkitworm
09-01-2008, 08:52 AM
Ok, so my apologies for going mountain dew butt-wild on the topic above. I guess I have been getting the tank burn out :( And obviously it hit a nerve with me... It is not something I have talked to guildies about either because I don't want them to think I am going to quit the game. In the end though, I think it is best to voice that I am getting tired of tanking before it gets worse to the guild, and let them know probably where my limits are a bit better.

I have the same issue as all of you, whispers and guild mates constantly asking me to tank stuff each day. I am also exalted with all the outland instances from needless grinding. I found myself going back to Reg MgT to grind for Nightstrike for my threat set, since I didn't realize how uber that throwing weapon was (or that it existed). So now the people that I have been 'carrying' through this Reg MgT will most likely be whispering me for other instances.

I also generally don't like my other guild officers or the guild master talking negatively towards me in the least, even if it was something that was my mistake. It makes the game not worth it, when tanks have to put and focus as much as they already do, to get smack from your guild officers who are supposed to be your "friends".

I am a very nice person, and generally hate confrontation, so I won't usually even defend myself when I probably should. I don't know what to do about officers pissing me off, or the GM, who came down on me the other night for taking 300g out of the gbank when I used it to regem for more avoidance for Archimonde because I had already spent every badge and gold piece I had regemming the rest of my gear - all for the freakin raid fight. And he had the nerve to say I can't take that money out... that kind of stuff pissed me off, or when the mage officer cops an attitude about my threat not being high enough (most likely for their own selfish DPS reasons), pff. What do you guys do in those situations? I feel, as an officer as well, I should be able to tell them to f**k off, but I don't want the guild to think I'm leaving, I just demand more respect.

Anyways, that's about it... this is a good topic though.

R E S P E C T the tanks! :)

Rootkitworm
09-01-2008, 08:56 AM
PS - If it is a really bad group in a 5man I just now pull the line out of my modem to fake a DC and then play my alt for a bit and log back on. That's what it's come down to though, I can't waste my time anymore with noobs if they want a 5man wipe fest.