PDA

View Full Version : Tanks that only log in for 25mans



ceffo
07-01-2008, 07:29 AM
In our guild we have 5-8 geared tanks who can tank well yet will not run heroics/kz/za if their life depended on it and would rather spend time doing other stuff in game (aka circling shatt). And only show up for ssc/tk/gruuls etc

This doesnt help some of our lesser geared dps/heals get BOJ gear and speed our progression up somewhat.

We have put in guild note for tanks to "offer" to run dps/heals 1-2 heroics a day (ie the easy ones sp/mech etc) which take around an hour of their time.

Well this hasnt really changed their veiws.

Any suggestions?

geros
07-01-2008, 07:39 AM
tanking trivial content as a warrior burns me out faster than anything else. I wouldn't push tanks to do something they don't want to do or you find that they stop logging in or vanish to a different server. Find an alt or a holy pally/ resto druid that is more than excited to do some heroic/kara/za tanking.

Doc309
07-01-2008, 08:51 AM
If it's not a guild event and especially a progression event... let them fly around shat.

your "undergeared" players can Pug. and the tanks won't burn out.

btw imho pugging is great :0
a bad PuG makes you happy your in a decent guild .
and a good one might recruit a good player into your guild.

Bonerot
07-01-2008, 08:55 AM
Stop doing 10 mans and heroics. Move on and stop recruiting undergeared nubs.

You are in the wrong here imo not your tanks

Treenaa
07-01-2008, 08:55 AM
Your "geared tanks who can tank well" most likely got the gear and the experience in the first place by running the heck out all those instances with similarly geared parties. You remember...back when you couldn't just clear Kara twice and get an autoblocker. Heck, back when you probably couldn't clear Kara period, much less as a farming run.

Telling your tanks they need to do extra work to catch up all the new people you invited to fill your raiding ranks while the geared up dps and healers pvp or fly around shat chatting themselves is just a formula for needing to find "lesser geared" tanks to match the "lesser geared" dps/heals in your 25 mans as well.

Brucimus
07-01-2008, 09:13 AM
I wonder if the OP asked the same question on say... Healer.com or DPS.org would he get the same replies?

Thist
07-01-2008, 10:10 AM
I helped a whole 150+ guilds worth of people Onyxia attune then Kara attune. Some of them stayed, some left. It burnt me out. It made me angry - people seemed to think I owed them things just for being a tank. Tanks are not guild resources, they are people who are also trying to have fun.

Tanks can have many hobbies that they enjoy: fishing, cooking, questing, collecting pets, collecting event items, lurking, chatting to friends, guarding the farm, running flags, etc. Some tanks like to respec twice a week and do arena. They also need to do farming (for resist sets, bigger bags, enchants, pots etc), and make at least enough gold for repairs and consumables for the week. If they are tanking 25-mans then they already worked very hard to get their gear.

The less people nag tanks, the more likely they are to offer to help and not go hide on alts or lurk. If they know you, and you have had some good conversations with them, then even more likely. If you helped them with something (trying out ss spec in arena, bodyguard for fishing competition, getting something weird from ZG, etc) without immediately demanding help in return, then even more likely. Sometimes they just won't help - farming 5 more primal life for their nature set before the next 25-man may be what they want to do today.

You are always free to roll a tank for yourself and see what its like. :-)

P.S. If you drag them into a wipefest then at least offer to pay their repair bill, so they don't get zero items AND pay gold to help you.

Satrina
07-01-2008, 10:48 AM
Your "geared tanks who can tank well" most likely got the gear and the experience in the first place by running the heck out all those instances with similarly geared parties. You remember...back when you couldn't just clear Kara twice and get an autoblocker. Heck, back when you probably couldn't clear Kara period, much less as a farming run.

Telling your tanks they need to do extra work to catch up all the new people you invited to fill your raiding ranks while the geared up dps and healers pvp or fly around shat chatting themselves is just a formula for needing to find "lesser geared" tanks to match the "lesser geared" dps/heals in your 25 mans as well.
This.

Blame Blizzard's dazzling philosophy of here's an instance, enjoy it for the next 8 months!

Kamani
07-01-2008, 11:27 AM
We have put in guild note for tanks to "offer" to run dps/heals 1-2 heroics a day (ie the easy ones sp/mech etc) which take around an hour of their time.


Honestly one of the dumbest things I have ever heard.

Tanks are not property, they are players.

Krashtork
07-01-2008, 01:10 PM
On both my Warrior and Mage alt I have had to primarily gear myself. By this I mean my gear came from MY efforts.

Not only did I PuG 5 mans, heroics, pvp, and drop herbalism for engineering for the trink and helm, I also gathered up a bunch of strangers, lead and PuG'd Karazhan multiple times (before it was the new UBRS).

The point I am getting at is that your undergeared dps and healers ought to get their butts moving and get into those PuGs. I found about 30% of my past guilds raiding core within PuGs.

Also, that same past guild kept bugging me for runs in all the instances i needed no items or rep in, to the point that i would spec pvp, level my bro's alliance toon, and screw around on alts, just to avoid tanking 5 mans i didn't want to.

As what was stated before: Tanks are people, not property.

P.S. We have rage bars for a reason...

Satrina
07-01-2008, 01:37 PM
Yeah, what was he thinking, hoping people would help their guildmates? What kind of insanity is that?

Imagine you're at the point where you won't even bring an alt to heroics or Karazhan because you're so sick of them over a year later. Now consider how well being told to "offer" your services to help new and undergeared recruits would sit with you.

geros
07-01-2008, 01:43 PM
I don't think that tanks mind helping guildies, it's just that there is a level of depth for their charity. i'll go clean up a stream or work in a soup kitchen when I have free time; my level of devotion for helping sea otters and trout isn't at 14 hours a week.

new recruits are far less cute than sea otters.

Xav
07-01-2008, 01:48 PM
I don't think that tanks mind helping guildies, it's just that there is a level of depth for their charity. i'll go clean up a stream or work in a soup kitchen when I have free time; my level of devotion for helping sea otters and trout isn't at 14 hours a week.

new recruits are far less cute than sea otters.

all i got from this post was sea otters

Kazeyonoma
07-01-2008, 01:56 PM
http://www.travelkamchatka.com/images/seaotter.jpg
O_o

Muggs
07-01-2008, 02:06 PM
Wait till the tanks get sick of running Gruul's/Mags even and won't log on unless you are t5 or better /tear.

P.S. The Otter is not crying, the Otter is simply cleaning itself, but it does look damn cute.

loquatious
07-01-2008, 02:45 PM
I'm basically at this burn out stage. My tank is fully geared for my instance level, I even have a fair amount of badge dps gear. I have geared up my alts to the point that they could fill in on raids. I hardly log into wow anymore i have 20k gold, craptons of primals & herbs -- there is NOTHING to do.

I'd like to gear up newbies but you see them come, you see them go, raid attendence is the suck and they leave after 2-3 T6 drops.

I'm going with get the alts to tank

Ciderhelm
07-01-2008, 02:50 PM
http://www.travelkamchatka.com/images/seaotter.jpg
O_o
Epic.

Roana
07-01-2008, 02:59 PM
Blame Blizzard's dazzling philosophy of here's an instance, enjoy it for the next 8 months!

In all fairness, this is not really a purely Blizzard thing. It's the fairly MMORPG-typic concept of leveling and (at 70) its logical translation into a serial progression endgame. And they did try to provide parallel instances at T5 and T6 so you wouldn't just be stuck doing the same thing all the time.

I burned out on Karazhan a lot faster than I burned out on heroics, since there was a much bigger variety to be had in the latter.

There's a lot of content out there. 69 levels worth of it go largely unused.

Sangi
07-01-2008, 03:06 PM
Yes. I am this way for 5 and the 10 mans now. My gear is above what is needed for the content we are doing. There is no reason for me to be in there except to help out folks. Which I don't mind doing. But not as constantly as it is seemed to be wanted by the guildmates. I also usually end up leading, which after 3 raid nights, 1 ZA run, and usually a Kara I just get tired.

My dream kara is walking in, asking if every one knows the instance then just chain pulling for the next 2-3 hours. No explanations. No details on the pulls. Just go go go. Had it once on a spur of the moment kara and was the best time in there I have ever had.

I think that is the part that gets tanks down. Having the explain the same instance and each of the pulls over and over and over again. I am lucky in that we have two tanks that need badges and are picking up the slack for me and don't have the burn out.

Archfiend
07-01-2008, 03:09 PM
Tanking... when everyone else in the raid whines about the 5g worth of reagents they have to buy to last the whole run, we cringe at the 5g repair bill - per death! - that we have to pay each time the same dps that dragged us out in the first place decides to show off and ends up wiping the group...

When it's good enough for a mage to just have a single spell (polymorph), nevermind whether or not he knows how to use it properly, while a tank has to justify his gear, spec, and stats to a group leader that probably doesn't even understand why we try to get 490 defense in the first place...

When tanks understand that the fundamental reason for a supposed 'tank shortage' isn't that there aren't enough people that would be willing to do it, but that you need a 3:1 ratio of dps to tanks in the first place, so it's actually easier to get into groups as dps than to try to compete for the few coveted tank spots...

... Then it's no wonder tanks look back at the trail of tears it took to get to the point they're at and pass on old stuff. Guild loyalty has to go both ways.

Nez
07-01-2008, 03:11 PM
I became one of "those" tanks. When I was working up my tank, I spent so much time in those 5 mans grinding rep to get in heroics ( when you had to :P ) that going back in now is just plain boring and annoying. Its usually half geared alts that are screwing around because they know they had a good tank, not paying attention to threat so I end up chasing mobs all over until I just start letting the mobs eat them. :D haha Plus with spending 4+ hours 5 nights a week tanking in 25 man raids, running 5 mans hold zero interest to me. And its nice to just screw around and relax for once to mine or farm greds etc. Get the alt non-raid tanks to do it IMO. I only do it for close friends or if its a geared group that is just going to blow up the place.

thedrawrf
07-01-2008, 03:15 PM
I understand your tanks 100%...Tanking Kara, tanking 5 mans, tanking ancient content like that....Isn't fun. And when the group or raid decides to start f'ing around, who dies? The tank! Who feels like they suck, and it must be their fault? The tank! ect ect ect

geros
07-01-2008, 04:47 PM
http://www.travelkamchatka.com/images/seaotter.jpg
O_o

exactly!

Gehn
07-01-2008, 08:23 PM
There is no real shortage of tanks. Only tanks for bad PuGs. So unless Blizzard can hotfix stupidity, there will always be a shortage of tanks because any tank worth a damn won't go near a random PuG.

Given assurance of a group that can clear the heroic/10-man with ease, I actually can get over sickness of the instance and enjoy it as an opportunity to kick back a little, have some fun, and make some money and shards for a change.

But most of the time it's not an undergeared player or two and the rest of the group composed of solid, reliable DPS and healers up to the tank's gear level, it's 4 terribly geared power-leveled alts that want you, the tank, to carry them
It isn't that running instances isn't fun, CARRYING people isn't fun.

Sometimes there's nothing more enjoyable than running some obscenely late-night drunken kara or heroic and just blowing stuff up in rediculous ways to see if you can.

But ask me to have to concentrate on trivial stuff because I have a healer alt in remnants of t2 responsible for keeping me alive....you'll find me less than enthusiastic.

If you can't pull your weight, or if the rest of your group can't pull their weight, without having to be told to, then don't expect any tank to want to burden themself with getting you free hand-outs.

Truly. Half of the reason I switched servers was this. A good offer and the guild doing Kara dies w/o the MT. As everyone else is alting about, find an alt tank.

TomHuxley
07-01-2008, 10:39 PM
I've run into a bit of 5-man burnout myself. I ground my way through them, often with pugs or RL friends. I'll still run Kara or other "raid-lite" instances to gear up guildies (I do every week, both ZA and Kara) and so far I find them enjoyable and the badges are still quite nice. While I certainly do run heroics, they are quite a drag at this point, so I mostly do them either a) as a favor to someone in the guild, or b) with an OP guild run for badges and/or specific loot (e.g. MgT).

I really like to help out guild members, and there are lots of ways to do so (loans, donated materials, instance runs, etc) but I barely have enough time to earn gold for repairs and consumables as it is, let alone PvP. If a guild told me I "had" to do a certain number of heroics every week I'd /gquit as fast as my fingers could type it.

rocket808
07-01-2008, 10:50 PM
I personally dont mind anything that the players come and put effort in. as you say, when we as tanks are helping pull the people through the instance as top dps (wtf) - this is when i get annoyed.

when the group is one that are testing my threat skills (with advanced notice), where i can test certain reaction times, or things that i wont do in a 25 man which could wipe a raid, i do still enjoy it.

Elyvern
07-01-2008, 10:57 PM
What I found disturbing was - back when the ZA patch was released, there were some awesome badge gear such as Brooch of Deftness and Bracers of Ancient Phalanx that were better than gear that dropped in TK/SSC. Yet only a few of our tanks actively farmed badges (kara & heroics) outside of regular raids to buy those pieces. The rest continued to depend on raid drops for their gear.

Personally, I'm a believer that a good heroic tank can easily become a good raid tank, but not vice versa. Simply put, most raid encounters don't require the kind of control and situational awareness that a difficult heroic requires. So running heroics is a great way keeps your skills and reflexes sharp. Furthermore, a tank should always attempt to get the best gear he/she can obtain at that point in time. If it's crafted or badge gear, all the better, because now you don't have to depend on 25man to get upgrades.

Burn out or not, I find it hard to justify not running these zones when there are raid tanks that can obviously use badge upgrades but aren't out there running heroics and getting badges to buy them.

Corise
07-02-2008, 12:20 AM
As said before, a good rapport with the tank from these new members is probably the best way to get assistance from your well geared tank. Usually the only thing a tank gets from running five mans are a few badges and a repair bill (and very rarely a thanks). You might think badges might be nice, but high end raiding can now get you a lot of badges, I have almost two stacks of badges with that just sit in the bank.

Also you mention nothing of your other classes, is it only your well geared tanks that are not helping? Is the person in need of help bringing three other well geared main raiders to help with this instance? Or are you expecting the tanks to gear this new person with three other alts?

Lastly I would like to say, with the advent of season three pvp gear made available for cheaper, and season two gear made available for mere honor, I find it hard to believe that these people NEED Kara and and five man items to make them competitive in a pve setting. Sure PVP gear is certainly not the best for PVE, but it is significantly on par with anything from what you want your tanks to run.

My advice, have the people you recruit spend their time doing BG's with your main tank, your tanks may enjoy the PVP and build a good relationship with them, as well as get honor for your recruits to buy some decent gear.

Arrivan
07-02-2008, 02:03 AM
There is no real shortage of tanks. Only tanks for bad PuGs. So unless Blizzard can hotfix stupidity, there will always be a shortage of tanks because any tank worth a damn won't go near a random PuG.

Given assurance of a group that can clear the heroic/10-man with ease, I actually can get over sickness of the instance and enjoy it as an opportunity to kick back a little, have some fun, and make some money and shards for a change.

But most of the time it's not an undergeared player or two and the rest of the group composed of solid, reliable DPS and healers up to the tank's gear level, it's 4 terribly geared power-leveled alts that want you, the tank, to carry them
It isn't that running instances isn't fun, CARRYING people isn't fun.

Sometimes there's nothing more enjoyable than running some obscenely late-night drunken kara or heroic and just blowing stuff up in rediculous ways to see if you can.

But ask me to have to concentrate on trivial stuff because I have a healer alt in remnants of t2 responsible for keeping me alive....you'll find me less than enthusiastic.

If you can't pull your weight, or if the rest of your group can't pull their weight, without having to be told to, then don't expect any tank to want to burden themself with getting you free hand-outs.

Big fat QFT to this. This is why I no longer tank for anyone other than guildies, and even then I don't tank much these days. My reason is actually twofold, the first has already been described in great detail in this thread and the second is that since I'm usually Fury spec I can't stand tanking anything, even a normal 5 man, as Fury any more because my threat blows chunks and I have an annoying tendency to blame myself for things like losing aggro. Even if I spec Prot I still don't want to deal with the stress of a wipefest in content I've pugged to exalted and moved beyond. I don't even do that many pugs on my holy paladin alt any more either.

bludwork
07-02-2008, 06:57 AM
As a guild leader, you should stop recruiting undergeared people.

Krashtork
07-02-2008, 09:35 AM
As a guild leader, you should stop recruiting undergeared people.

This.

protonly
07-02-2008, 10:14 AM
The problem is that it becomes something of a chore instead of fun. And with "power-levelers" they usually don't want to do things the "proper" way but just want to "aoe spam" things to get done quicker...so you end up having to work your ass off to avoid repair bills for yourself. Heroics have always been a pain in the ass as it is, dealing with morons or *having* to tank/heal/whatever one when you don't really want to just makes it worse.

It's exactly why my retired paladin *only* tanks/heals (or logs on for) 25 man progression nights and why the best tank I know just retired his war for his lvl 50 lock. I'd rather go screw around in BRD or scholo/strat and have fun that feel obligated to "tank" this or "heal" that.

gardek
07-02-2008, 10:32 AM
My guild brought up an issue with me at one point, that I only showed up for raids, and didn't run people through 5 mans...

I told them that I'm not in the business of running people through anything. I'm here to play the game at my level. I've been exalted with every 5 man for about a year now, and back when I needed to do those instances, I did them. With similarly geared players.

There is no volunteering or charity in this. Running undergeared players through instances which are tiers beneath what my gear level is at, and doing this for 2 hours and not getting a damn thing out of it? That is simply not one of my responsibilities to the guild.


The last Kara I ran was 4 months ago, and it took 3.5 hours (at this point I'm in Tier 5/6). The reason it took so long is because half the raids was on alts, or Friend & Family rank. I've not stepped into Kara since, and intend to keep it this way.

loquatious
07-02-2008, 11:28 AM
I suppose if the guild shows strong support for 5 mans like top healers & dps going on the 5 mans its harder to complain about being a pack mule for undergeared alts. Is that often the case? Is it raid geared mains who need the tank or alts / new members?

sammich
07-02-2008, 11:54 AM
The OP and anyone here who agrees with him are just idiot mooches that shouldn't be in guilds in the first place. Tanks like any class play for fun, their own enjoyment, otherwise playing becomes a job and no one pays $15 a month to go to work everynight on wow. If you are really THAT lazy have your guild recruit more tanks. Expecting your Black Temple MT to come tank any heroics is ridiculous, they already tank every 25-man raiding instance for the guild.

God knows everyone has to run every instance a couple dozen times to get all the drops they want. Do you really think tanks want to continue running content they can get no upgrades from? Would you do that on your dps? The answer is NO, you run a different instance.

Find a pug or create your own alt tank you lazy bastards. My last guild mooched off me for every little thing, leadership relyed on me so heavily to gear up the undergeared little sh!ts they were recruiting, only to have them leave as soon as they got gear. A vicious cycle that lasted indefinitely.

Before I left I was a hero, after I left they called me a "traitor" treated me like crap and banned me from the guild. 6 months of my life wasted on such dumb a$$holes in this game. I refuse to step foot into Kara anymore, that place is a noob magnet, so are all T4 dungeons, just to a lesser extent.

Final advice: Play this game for yourself, everyone else can go to hell.

Calamity
07-02-2008, 12:40 PM
I really relate to this too. I hit the brick wall a while back. For me the biggest issue was hitting the point where nothing is new.

Nothing too look forward to. Even new areas really offer nothing new.

You reach a point where you're practised enough that the 5 mans offer no challenge anymore. in fact the only measure of difficulty becomes how much you have to "fight your
group."

Tanking a skilled group becomes boring and mundane, been there done that, kind of thing. While conversely undergeared/underexperienced runs only provide irritation.
(I understand that people need to learn/practice and you can't expect everyone to come in on an equal footing ,if you have played for several years,) but my take on that is :
you should be learning encounters as a group. Really tanking 'starter 70' instances should be done by people who need to be there. Kara and such shouldn't be relying on
BT level tanks. Simply put I have done all that stuff so freaking many times, I have absolutely no desire to do it again.

For those who think I have a duty to tank for them, pay my fee, and pay me a wage, and if it is high enough I will. I do agree with the poster above, I will help any who
helped me along the way, and if I like them enough, maybe even a friend or 2 of theirs.Also I helped my friends,guildees etc. this probably helped burn me out, it adds up to a lot of
extra runs. It was to the point where by the time my toon was done loading in I would have more tells than I could answer asking/begging me to run instances I had run to death,
which only offered me the prospect of higher repair bills, and a lack of time to farm my own mats, and get ready for my raid. People forget I have already run those instances
several times when I geared up ( with no higher toons to help, cus there were none,) and have run them again, and again for other people. it has to stop at some point, but it won't
until you put your foot down.

The so called tank shortage adds into "geared tank burnout" by funnelling requests toward highly geared players, and away from 'adequately geared/appropriately
progressed' newer tanks.

I will anecdotally support this.

I have a rogue alt. Actually it was in fact intended to be my main, oh so long ago, and was created before my warrior. I first started WoW right after release, on a
PvE server because a RL friend had started there. Didnt like it much, his computer died shortly after x-mas. I found out some friends I had gamed with were playing
on a PvP server, so I moved over. I started my rogue, but found they had no one tanking, so I rolled my warrior to fill that hole. I instantly loved it(well, after
we hit content you actually tank.)Later merged with a couple larger long standing guilds to tackle the larger content.
So the rogue sat at level 11 literally for years, never quite had time to play it.

After hitting a plateau with my warrior, where I enjoyed working on unconquered content (late SSC and TK at that point,) but felt burned out doing 5 man stuff, I
dusted off my rogue and started playing it. It was a huge change of pace. Don't get me wrong, the first time through the content tanking it will always
be my fondest memories from that era, but man you have way less to worry about. Tanking is more fun , when oyu are pushing ahead, but treading water as a tank sucks --must be that heavy plate armor!

Anyway after hitting outlands and doing runs there, I ran into your usual assortment of groups, and tanks. some good,some bad, some ugly. but one thing I did notice
was groups being way pickier on the level of gear expected from tanks. I had healers turn away tanks that were vastly geared better than my warrior had been on
the same content, and had run without much issue at all. They would then bitch in chat about the 'Tank Shortage' while we waited on finding replacements.som even called me a noob when I said the tank was fine!! I pointed out his stats, ya know health armor etc. And that it was better than I had used, and that content had been nerfed hard since then, but they don't want to play through, they want to ride through, on your back.

It was at this time that I realised I wasn't really having fun anymore. I actually became one of those "only log on for 25 man" tanks. I would only log on
to farm what ever I needed, and then do the raid. I was still 100% prepared, and 100% commited to the raid, but that was all I did. I found I need to be challenged
in order for wow to hold my interest. Older content doesn't provide any positive challenge anymore.And every nerf to raid difficulty hurts, as that was all I had to
look forward to.

Currently I am on hiatus. Maybe a break will help, but right now I am thinking, I will come back and see if I like WotLK, and if not
I will probably stop completely. Without a new challenge the game has lost its shine,for me. Actually I think all MMO's have lost that sparkle for me, I think once you and your guild/regular group get "good" at working together all these games become "too easy." When it gets easy, it stops being fun for the tank.

Gigeer
07-02-2008, 01:46 PM
Haha, i have to agree with most of the replies here. And unfortunetely I was a "good" tank, and ran a lot of my undergeared guildies through heroics, and kara. Me and a Pally tank, we are the 2 main tanks in our guild, and we ran a lot of people through 5 mans, heroics, kara, even after we got tired of those instances. We got nothing out of it, just a repair bill, but we were "good" guys, and helped our guildies.

And this is the result we got:
Now we have a lot of semi geared people, that ran heroics and kara with good tanks, that always stayed far away on threat, so they could go all out all the time, without worrying about anything. The know shit about rotations, shit about slowing down dps, shit about CC. When we got to gruul's teh 1st time, no one could squeeze the needed dps, cause every single dps was lazy and didnt know how to be a sharp player. There are a few ways to be a sharp player. Wiping. PUGing, and playing with bad tanks. IMO no one should even think about running ppl through anything ( except if it's your brother, GF or something like that...), cause otherise you are just raising bad players.

Kazeyonoma
07-02-2008, 02:13 PM
Haha, i have to agree with most of the replies here. And unfortunetely I was a "good" tank, and ran a lot of my undergeared guildies through heroics, and kara. Me and a Pally tank, we are the 2 main tanks in our guild, and we ran a lot of people through 5 mans, heroics, kara, even after we got tired of those instances. We got nothing out of it, just a repair bill, but we were "good" guys, and helped our guildies.

And this is the result we got:
Now we have a lot of semi geared people, that ran heroics and kara with good tanks, that always stayed far away on threat, so they could go all out all the time, without worrying about anything. The know shit about rotations, shit about slowing down dps, shit about CC. When we got to gruul's teh 1st time, no one could squeeze the needed dps, cause every single dps was lazy and didnt know how to be a sharp player. There are a few ways to be a sharp player. Wiping. PUGing, and playing with bad tanks. IMO no one should even think about running ppl through anything ( except if it's your brother, GF or something like that...), cause otherise you are just raising bad players.

http://www.pwlf.org/seaotter/seaotter11.jpg
Sea otter approves this post. Carrying people, makes people never learn to play correctly, they are... carried.

Raginbull
07-02-2008, 02:46 PM
I can't answer this for the rest of the people out there, but I can discuss it coming from my own experience. From the time I hit 70, I spend 4 months chain-running every heroic and karazhan I could get my hands on. I basically lived in instances, and always wanted to pug in new people to see if I was good enough to cover for them or to hold up aggro against them (in good or bad settings, of course). I would try my hardest to get through every instance with as little CC as possible to teach myself how to best react to certain situations and how to best deal with multi-target aggro and overcoming bad players.

All this to say: I cannot take it anymore. If I'm in a heroic instance now, I want to be in it with the people I ran with while learning it. I don't want to even have the opportunity to say "LAWL I OUT-DAMAGED THE ROGUE" because that's not fun. It means that I was doing my best, and watching out for people who just wanted to carry on and do their own thing, and I'm tired of it. I left a guild who took multiple nights on kara after months of having it on farm for another guild who fully cleared BT in 3 weeks start to finish. I have been spoiled by playing with good players in equivalent gear to my own, and I just don't want to worry about dealing with players who don't even know how to spam the 2 buttons they have to hit to do well anymore.

With me, it's not that tanks are in short supply, it's that good tanks get tired of bad players. Yes, I sound like everyone else in the thread, but there might be a reason for this. We get scrutinized more than anyone else in the instance, we're the only ones who don't get any room to screw up, and we're the first ones to receive blame regardless of whose fault it was that something went wrong. I would rather off-tank or devaspam in fury gear than have to MT with a group of sub-par players again, and every time I find myself running alts through things where there are good tank alts/newbies available, I cringe.

To the OP, I think that you hit a nerve with the community without intending to, because you brought up a subject that the majority of the people here are all too familiar with. We aren't some pack-mules that you can just send along our way with no incentive, hoping that we can just carry an instance group without any whining or objections. Please, have one of the players who needs a tank find one on his/her own, or better yet, roll one up and see what it's like to do it: a love/hate relationship that more often than not ends in frustration and irritation until you learn it, and a position that you just can't force yourself to give up because it's too much a thrill when it does go well.

skreed
07-02-2008, 02:52 PM
You might try to tap your guild's pool of non-tanking Pallies/Druids/Warriors to work on their offspecs a bit. Maybe offer to pay their respec bills or donate all shards if they tank a couple of runs.

IMO... Humping trash mobs is the definition of tedium (I'd assume this is the case for most tanks). When your tank greatly outgears the content youre in (T5 tanks in most low and mid difficulty heroics), everything is a trash pull.

Turmoil
07-02-2008, 08:13 PM
The sentiment of the original poster is very familiar to me.. from 6 months ago, when my priest was my main. I saw more and more of our guild tanks just not bothering to help - as many people have said, they just don't find it fun. As soon as they were out of a raid, they'd be either offline or PVP spec.. until next raid.

The solution I found? Well, there were two.
1. I made friends with one of our raid tanks. I chatted to him and we built up a friendship, and we'd go to heroics together to have fun with other people from the guild. He didn't mind, because he was having a good time - he knew I was a great healer, and I knew he was a great tank.
2. I finished levelling my warrior alt, and started to take it through heroics and kara. I was happy to tank anything and everything that I could handle, and not just because I needed the badges... but because I really enjoyed providing the service to my guildmates - it was the main reason I levelled the character. I know the frustration of spending hours waiting on a tank; it sucks, and if I can ease others' pain while having fun.. well, so much the better. I also know the pain of being pretty much guilt-tripped into playing a specific character (long, long ago, I played an enh shaman...), and it really feels like crap, so if I could help take the pressure off our tanks to play their tanks, I was happy to.

These days? My tank is my main, and usually I'm the one asking for heroic groups, so I can get to know people and have some mindless braindead fun chainpulling my way through something for the millionth time. And no, I don't need badges, or heroic gear, since I'm kitted from old & new badge kit, and my large stash of badges on my healer pays for all my gems. I admit, sometimes I'm just not in the mood, or the wrong person asks me, and then I will make my excuses.

It does frustrate me a little seeing other tanks in-guild just refusing, especially if they actually could use the badge loot from heroics, when there's at least another whole group's worth of good players online and looking for a tank. Especially when one of those tanks is the GM.. but that's a rant all its own.


My advice? Try to foster the friendship element within your guild. If you're a casual raiding guild, then this should be emphasised anyway. If you're a more hardcore raiding guild, then you'll probably have to accept it is the way it is. If your healers make friends with your tanks, not only will it help in raids (because that trust & interaction is a very precious synergy), but a solid healer/tank team is always successful in getting a heroic group up. Of course, that depends on your healers not being bored with heroics too..
I guess it just depends on the player's history as well. If they've been in the "can't find a tank" situation quite a lot themselves in the past, then they'll possibly be more sympathetic.

Ciderhelm
07-02-2008, 08:17 PM
her

Yes.

/gasp it got edited

Turmoil
07-02-2008, 08:43 PM
Yes.

/gasp it got edited

Not because of your reply Cider <3 I just realised that my mind had wandered while reading through the thread and I hadn't directly addressed the OP's point.


Yes, I am a girl. I think female players do tend to be more sympathetic.. thus the ultimate solution could be... only recruit female tanks!? You'd just better hope they have staggered cycles, or once a month you'd have a week of complete hell... not to mention all the girl-talk in the tanking channel!

Ciderhelm
07-02-2008, 08:45 PM
Half the chat in our tank channels is girl-talk anyway, even when it's just males.

Muggs
07-02-2008, 09:05 PM
Half the chat in our tank channels is girl-talk anyway, even when it's just males.

*picks up some ice* I swear, it's all Klimpen.

Elyvern
07-02-2008, 09:32 PM
It does frustrate me a little seeing other tanks in-guild just refusing, especially if they actually could use the badge loot from heroics, when there's at least another whole group's worth of good players online and looking for a tank. Especially when one of those tanks is the GM.. but that's a rant all its own.

Precisely! After reading through the 2 concurrent threads about Heroic 5man burn-out, it seems that almost every contributor agrees that they are truly sick of heroics, they've done those to death, and the last thing they want to do is carry alts and lesser geared people through heroics.

If you are the kind of tank that has run everything possible, gotten every single upgrade you could get on your own, I salute you. However, I must play the devil's advocate.

I've mentioned this in a previous post: too often, I see raid tanks that only log on for 25man raids. When asked to tank a kara run or a heroic, they plead tiredness, boredom, yadada. But when I inspect them, all I see is sub-par raid loot - many of these inferior to badge gear. Tanks with virtually no expertise, tanks in t5 gear wearing a blue belt, blue trinket "because so-so 25man boss refuse to drop my loot".

I am an alt tank - I have my Gyro-Khorium Destroyer, my Tankatronic goggles, my Darkmoon Card: Vengeance, I have every tanking item I can get my hands on through badges and heroics, every gem slot socketted with epic gems. As an alt, I don't have the obligation to get all these items, because I can afford to slack. I don't tank cutting edge content, but a raid MT does. A Raid MT cannot be waiting for the RNG system to smile on him. He/she is obliged to get every single piece of upgrade that can be obtained via solo play - in fact those are the best, because you don't need to depend in 24 other people to get them.

I feel that being a main tank is a special calling, and those that are truly passionate about it understand the need to go beyond and above what is required of other classes. This includes running heroics whenever there are upgrades available. I'm exalted with almost every faction in outlands, I've done 'em all to death. (and this is my 2nd alt, mind you, I've gotten exalted with almost every faction on my other toons too) But when new badge gear come out, I would organise kara and heroic runs because by god, I am going to get those pieces even if it means clearing Kara another 5 times.


My advice? Try to foster the friendship element within your guild. If you're a casual raiding guild, then this should be emphasised anyway. If you're a more hardcore raiding guild, then you'll probably have to accept it is the way it is. If your healers make friends with your tanks, not only will it help in raids (because that trust & interaction is a very precious synergy), but a solid healer/tank team is always successful in getting a heroic group up. Of course, that depends on your healers not being bored with heroics too..
I guess it just depends on the player's history as well. If they've been in the "can't find a tank" situation quite a lot themselves in the past, then they'll possibly be more sympathetic.

Yes, I have been very fortunate in the sense that several of my guildies are very serious altaholics with alts good enough to raid BT/MH. My healer alt friend and I have our pick of dps for any heroic run we want. Even so, we've about run everything to death and gotten just about everything we wanted out of heroics.

But the table is totally reversed when I log on my dps toons. It's come to the point where if I want a run to happen, I *must* play my tank. It's depressing that I get to pick from the cream of the crop while I tank, but I am forced to PUG when I'm playing dps. Do I expect to be carried through? No, I don't - I always make sure my toons are on par or above what is needed for the content I am doing. I don't blame raid MTs for being reluctant to tank, but few people roll healer alts, fewer roll tank alts. And tank alts do get tired of the same content the way MTs do.

I am always grateful for the fact that I never have problems finding groups as a tank. And when I start feeling uppity about it, begging for groups on my dps toon reminds me again of how fortunate tanks have it sometimes.

To some tanks, I do say, get off your high horses, run some heroics with your guildies and get those badge upgrades.

Let the flames begin.

Auron
07-02-2008, 09:55 PM
Yeah, what was he thinking, hoping people would help their guildmates? What kind of insanity is that?

Sigh...

This post was the soul reason I registered and am replying to this thread. "Good" tanks that have their gear and know how to play are indeed hard to come by. However, if they don't want to run a 5-man because they don't need anything from that instance or they simply just don't want to, don't guilt them into going or try to make them feel bad, as if they're letting you down.

I pugged all my runs when I was gearing up. Do you think I always got decked out priests or mages or competent hunters who knew how to trap to run with me? No. If I did get geared/competent people, do you think they stayed when they saw my health or inspected me? No. I just had to keep trying and pull together groups that weren't optimal. I did what I had to do to get the gear I wanted.

I don't consider it bad form to deny my "services" to undergeared people. If they think I'm mean for not helping them out, tough s***. Pug your group like I did. It's not fun to pug a healer when you don't know if they're going to spam Lesser Healing Wave, Flash Heal, or Flash of Light on mobs that regularly hit for over 4k (ie Defenders in SP or Bog Lords in UB) or DPS in cat form until I get "low". It's not fun to pug DPS that might rotate between fireball and frostbolt "because it's fun" or takes 20 seconds to go up and sap a mob after you told them to do so. Take your lumps like I did. Fair is fair.

For all the tanks that say they do help undergeared people with 5-mans, all I can say is kudos to you and your giving soul. Excuse me while I run heroic MGT for a trinket that I actually need. Enjoy the repair bill on those badge legs!

P.S. Ring, If that's your warock on Sen'jin, nice Int gems =P

Jatz
07-03-2008, 12:05 AM
Yeah, what was he thinking, hoping people would help their guildmates? What kind of insanity is that?

Sigh...


If all he was doing was hoping for was some help from in guild you might have a point, but to me it sounds like he's trying to order people to "help". How many times have you ever logged in going "I wonder what thankless person I can give my time and money to today?", cause I'll tell you from my experience most of them are just that.

As has been said if I ever got told that I had to run 5 man's for new recruits it would be the last thing i ever heard from my guild, it's a game not a Job. I have no problem with charity and helping people gear up to come play in new content, but I will do it as I see fit not as some guild master who likely isn't a tank anyway thinks I should. The key to this whole thing is Fun. Without it why bother?

Rethalius
07-03-2008, 04:59 AM
As burned out as i am on 5mans and heroics, if there is something i could need, or if i need more badges, ill grind them without stop.
I was burned out on heroics a month or two before blizzard released Magister's Terrace, but when it was released i must have gone there every day, most of the time with guildies but also a few pugs.
Mostly because i needed some of the new things but the fact that it was something new did help a lot!
In my experiance thou i wouldnt say its just tanks that can get burned out...
Again using the MGT example: a lot of my guilds melee dps really have good use for the shard of contemp, but everytime someone in guilds ask for a DPS to MGTheroic, they refuse to go just because they are bored of it aswell or they dont want to risk whiping

To be fair, we are now raiding 8/9BT and im again finding myself unable to go heroics, just because i dont enjoy myself in there anymore.
Mostly because it is ppl trying to gear up alts and i would be the only main there.
Recently thou, A LOT of ppl in my guild suddenly had tanking charaters, now from about 5 main charaters that tank to about 12 alt with gear to tank any heroic and kara.
These ppl ask me for advise on tanking and gear quite often and thats given me a reason not to imediatly log off after a 25 man raid.
They have become as capable as any other normal tank and they still enjoy doing heroics and kara a lot! (one of em wants his tank to be his main in WotLK now)
And also this allows me to go DPS on the weekends and do a kara like that
Thats about the only thing i do thou, 1 kara a week as dps to get badges, from wich i buy a gem and sell to pay for the weeks expenses
Plus is does help me stay online and be social with the guild.

Some ppl say the occasional drunken Kara or heroic is a good fun.
Personaly its a lot less fun when your the only one that isnt drunk :p
So if that happens, make sure you got a bottle of wodka next to you or youll just get annoyed at your own guildmembers :P


about the women tanks: we got one feral druid whos a women and she idd tanks a lot more! but even she has her limits and just cant be bothered some times :p althou she did do heroic slave pens for that seasonal boss a redicilous amount of times...PUG or guildies! (but i think she wanted to get that little pet)

But to the tanks who get bullied or guildtriped into doing heroics or kara id say this : "it is a game that you have to make enjoyable for yourself!"
my GM used to try and guildtrip me into going instances with his 101 alts
but when he finaly had his own tank he changed his mentality really fast (shattered halls heroic changes a man! ) , now he even defends me a bit if i decline to a 5man :P
There is always one tank/tankalt that wants to do an instance, if its not you, dont let other ppl make you feel bad about it.

So just keep it Fun!

(just so you know, i only do 5mans/heroics with the hot chick on our vent or the guy that pays for my epic gems)

Horacio
07-03-2008, 06:06 AM
At the risk of repeating previous comments, this is fairly common to both tanks and healers. At times, tanking and healing feel like work(in a good way, like a job you love) and once you've been there/done that, there's little incentive to do it again.

Look around. The people that are lamenting the lack of tanks for off-night heroic Bot, are they mains that have run it 46 times as well? Or are they your raiding roguue's warlock alt?

I had the chance to go to SSC on my mage last week and fight Leo. It was infintely easier and more laid back than being there on my tank or healer.

Tanking the same old content is a grind. Your mitigation scales up but, yeah but that's not the main thing. Threat is and while DPS even half asleep is destroying mobs that give you crap for rage. In other words, you as a tank are working hard to generate threat with less resources while your DPS is going apeshit on mobs and expecting your performance to scale like thiers. If you have an ounce of pride, you're not going to ask em to back off...you're going to use every trick you can think of.

Healers experience the same thing....because there is more threat bouncing, they have to stay alert. As a druid, I don't have a rez for the dumbass that yanks and often, I'm not with a leet tank anyhow and at times, I'm running for my life.

But because the tank/healer dynamic is so critical and so underplayed....especially at the alt level (how many of us have a 'farming' alt or a 'fun' alt?) You get asked by alts that want your main and can't take you're alt because they are all DPS.....stop being a selfish prick and help gear thier alt. Sure, they'll reciprocate, right after this....oh snap, I have to wash the cat, thanks for the run!

Heh...and when you try to maintain two main characters....a healer AND a Tank....forget it. Your life is no longer your own. Even if you decide you could stand to pick up some rep or an off set item on one, the other is always needed.

Eh, best you can hope for is to have good friends who are understanding and are worth playing with even if you aren't advancing your character. People you trust to help you when you need it in return. And remember, when the expansion is released, you'll be in all the good groups and a commodity in demand to see fresh content and take shit down.

Muggs
07-03-2008, 07:10 AM
Heh, so, my new tactic is I've started "tradeing" runs for tanking. I have a alt I want to gear, but she never gets invited cause everyone wants my tank, so, I made a deal. You take my mage into Kara Saturday, I tank for you in ZA on Sunday x)

Cynocide
07-03-2008, 07:22 AM
In my honest opinion, tanks are the one class that has the highest gquit/change spec/play less of any other class. This has to do with what everyone is talking about. Don't require your tanks to help in their off time. It is not their responsibility unless it's a scheduled raid. If they wish to help, that's their sole decision, not yours. You don't pay for their account, they do. Let them have some fun.

minrog
07-03-2008, 07:38 AM
I was a raiding OT pre-tbc with 95% attendance in the raids. I ran 4 or 5 nights a week for 6 hours and my other time was spent farming to get mats/enchants/repairs. Post-TBC I'm the guild's MT and I have 100% attendance on 4 or 5 nights a week, though we have cut down to 4.5 or 5 hours for our times. If my GM told me that I had to carry a bunch of alts and re-rolls through 5 mans (hey it's only 2 wasted hours a day!) I would tell him to fuck off.

I firmly believe in the "Nothing for nothing" philosophy. Night before last I took my GM through ZG with no possibility for personal gain just so he'd have a chance at a tiger mount. He's helped me time and again over the last 3 years and I thought it would be nice to return the favor.

It's not my job to fix other people's characters and make them not suck. The quality players find a path to success and the others crap out and honestly you guys should be very cautious about dumping useless jobs on your solid MT's/OT's. You might find that they end up becoming Arms/Fury Warriors because they burnt out on having to log in every night to start their 5-man shift.

Gorrack
07-03-2008, 09:49 AM
What I found disturbing was - back when the ZA patch was released, there were some awesome badge gear such as Brooch of Deftness and Bracers of Ancient Phalanx that were better than gear that dropped in TK/SSC. Yet only a few of our tanks actively farmed badges (kara & heroics) outside of regular raids to buy those pieces. The rest continued to depend on raid drops for their gear.

Personally, I'm a believer that a good heroic tank can easily become a good raid tank, but not vice versa. Simply put, most raid encounters don't require the kind of control and situational awareness that a difficult heroic requires. So running heroics is a great way keeps your skills and reflexes sharp. Furthermore, a tank should always attempt to get the best gear he/she can obtain at that point in time. If it's crafted or badge gear, all the better, because now you don't have to depend on 25man to get upgrades.

Burn out or not, I find it hard to justify not running these zones when there are raid tanks that can obviously use badge upgrades but aren't out there running heroics and getting badges to buy them.


The reason I am a Main Raid tank, Raid Leader, and Guild leader is because I perfected being the heroic tank, got my stuff straight with multi mob tanking and have run these zones on regular mode for rep and items, enough to get exalted, AND THEN did them enough to get exalted probably twice over taking people through them that needed stuff. Its enough to make my eyes bleed seeing heroic SL again, but that wouldnt matter if they were bleeding because I could probably do the flippin thing blindfolded.

As a tank I did Kara the right way, I geared up as best i could with regular dungeon blues, and rep rewards before I set foot in there. I didnt have a guild group drag me through it and get geared by osmosis. I fought my ass of for every drop that i did manage to get, wich wasnt many. Thank God for Badge gear. My raiders were running full epics while I was still tanking stuff in blues and rep epics.

I agree, I am pretty much burnt out on taking the lead as a tank, Guild has about 4 or 5 tanks, yet the ones that need work arent picking up the slack, so the ones who are tried and true get stuck holding the bag. Lately we have had a couple of alts that are willing to take up the role of Tank. But all in all, it seems liek a consensus here, Most tanks are flippin burnt out, and to require them to do the same BS for idiots that need to be carried is downright insulting.

Making your main raid tanks offer their time is only going to result in you having to recruit new tanks because these ones just flipped you the bird.

Radhja
07-03-2008, 11:45 AM
Fresh 70s shouldn't expect others to do the dirty work for them. It takes a fair amount of effort to break the barrier between all-greens and all-blues, not to mention the all-purps. I have a close irl friend that just turned 70, and she wants me to run her thru Karazhan immediately. In turn, I told her to keep working instances until she has "mostly-blues". After dealing with her QQ-fest that immediately followed, I simply explained to her that everyone has to go through it, and as a reward for her diligence, I would try to squeeze her in as my personal OT on the next Kara run I did. Reluctantly, she conceded the point and has started grinding her gear...

...like everyone else. :)

Bodasafa
07-03-2008, 03:34 PM
I am one of the Main Tanks in my guild for 25 man content. Were at Kara/Gruul/Mag on farm, 4/6 ZA, 5/6 SSC, VR in TK, Rage in Hyjal.

That all happened just this year in the past 6 months. Before that from the moment TBC dropped, I hit the ground running. I ran every instance a million times over and became exualted with all the major factions. I put in my time grinding the rep and badges. I have every badge gear peice that a tank could want. Im to the point where my only upgrades come from 25 man instance drops and epic gems. I theroretically could run SSC unbuffed based on the Effective Health Zone Minimims page here on tankspot.

And even before TBC, I worked hard for gear and made it to ZG before the expansion.

The shit that really kills me are the new players that dont even know what UBRS means. They power lvl thru TBC to 70 and say here I am! Im ready for Kara! They want to just bypass grinding and learning the 5 man instances on regular and not grind rep. This is the guy whos got epic shoulders from Kara and a crappy friendly shoulder enchant from aldor/scryers.

Screw that. I pretty much only log on to raid 25 mans and run my ZA crew once a week. I like the challange of new or hard content, keeps me awake! Ive seen x10 ppls share of 5 mans/heroics/kara, Im done.

Lucky me Im in a guild that dosent ask ppl to do anything they dont want to do.

If your having problems getting runs going that are "lowbie" in comparaison to where your guilds progression actually lies then you should pug that shit. Or make a effort to get a group of ppl together in the guild, like your tanks did a long time ago.

Put the time in and you will be respected.

Thats probably the biggest gripe anyone has in this game. When ppl are getting the "easy" way up and not putting the time in like we did for so long.

Gromblee
07-04-2008, 02:16 AM
I agree with everything already said......and this is comming from one of the undergeared "blues and rep gear" tanks that would like to do heroics. I either get inspected and turned down or get a absolute nightmare group that I know is gunna be a wipefest. I actually don't mind the repair bills too much only about 2.5 gold a death if the group is fun and actually trying to complete the content. Having only starated about a year ago it has been a year of rude surprises and steep learnig curves. This site has helped me a lot with multi mob tanking. There are young tanks out there to do content. I am what I consider early Kara capable have yet to take Moroes down yet but I think we were light on DPS as we went to the 4th garote.

Haltira
07-04-2008, 03:04 AM
Yeah, what was he thinking, hoping people would help their guildmates? What kind of insanity is that?

Sigh...


Only problem this "help" sounds like it is going very 1 way only. Recruit people that can function at your desired raiding level. It is NOT the job of your Main guild tanks to drag undergeared new recruits thru Kara/ZA you name it.

This OP post sounds more of a recruitment issue than anything else, STOP recruiting undergeared players and you will NOT have this problem.

I can only speak out of a personal point of view but personally i only do heroics kara etc very very rarely and when it happens it is with a select few people. Already having a couple stacks of BoJ in my bank and nothing to buy with it outside of Epic gems for the AH gets old after a while

Divinorum
07-04-2008, 08:11 AM
Quite simply as well, as a warrior with everything in the game for tanking up to M'uru loot, running 5mans is more work then running a 25man. I avoid so much, and take so little damage that I'm constantly rage starved and getting pissed off that I don't have 1600 tps. Don't ask a geared warrior to run anything other then what he's geared for, it's a chore, not a joy.

Thanks Blizz

orcstar
07-04-2008, 11:16 AM
I don't blame the tanks not wanting to do Kara and heroic anymore.

Get some other tanks and gear them up in the process. Heck, I'm originally a healer but if it's not ZA or MH/BT I'm probably not gona do it unless you're a really good friend.

What troubles me though is this: on the one hand I see a lack of tanks and healers on the other hand 80% of the people in my guild that makes an alt that's either a rogue or hunter. I rolled warrior. You need a healer? What's in it for me, you go boost my warrior on your main? No? Then I won't heal for your undergeared rogue.

Often when people try make you feel responsible is when it's in THEIR intrest.

And if you need a tank/healer: go roll one and don't roll another useless dps class of which there are too many anyway.

Irghen
07-04-2008, 01:13 PM
If a guildie needs badges or a heroic drop, I'll tank it.
If someone asks for a tank for a heroic in trade and i have no obligations with my guild, I'll tank it.
If we have a good healer I'll throw my PvP gear and add some badass dps to my tanking.
If the group is terribad, I'll teach them what I can and carry them through the place as much as I can.
If I'm staring at Vashj for 30mins while we get a 25th or someone realizes he left his PvE weapon in the bank I'll stab myself in the eye.

Srsly, what can be more boring than DOING NOTHING? I pay to play not to watch people discuss buffs for hours on end; and most certainly not to watch shattrath from the air, I could take a screen and use it as a wallpaper ffs...

I'm sad to say that I'm one of the 3-4 competent tanks that consistently run heroics in my realm. But on the bright side, I don't have to do almost any farming, people gift me gems, chants, pots, stones, mats and even spending gold and non-combat stuff.


Fresh 70s shouldn't expect others to do the dirty work for them. It takes a fair amount of effort to break the barrier between all-greens and all-blues, not to mention the all-purps.
And how are they supposed to do that if all they can do is stand around in shattrath asking for a tank for 3 hours just to find an idiot with a 2-hander? Crafted gear is cool but you need a tank to get anything wothwhile.

Being a tank is a position of service, even more than healing. If you don't enjoy helping others drop your shield....

Armstrong
07-04-2008, 01:57 PM
I didn't read every last comment, but I would just add this:

Tanks in raiding guilds or would-be raiding guilds should ask themselves whether they are hampering their guild's success by being so snobbish as to refuse to tank 5-mans or 10-mans for their guildmates who would genuinely benefit from the extra badges or drops.

Improving a raid's overall gear level doesn't only happen inside raid instances (at least for people who do their homework). Allowing other classes to buy their T6-equivalent badge gear sooner can be a pretty significant way of speeding up a guild's progression in 25-man content. As boring as it may be for some, doing this for your fellow raiders is simply part of your job as a tank in a raiding guild. Being "dedicated" to your guild's raiding success shouldn't be limited to your own gear and consumables.

Just something to keep in mind.

Elson
07-04-2008, 02:52 PM
In response to the OP. You do realize this is a teamwork oriented game right? You do realize that carrying 4 other people through an instance who make zero or little effort to work with me or carry their weight in the instance isn't teamwork, it's leeching.

I have no problems doing 5 man content, heroics, or whatever with people who make an effort to make my tanking experience enjoyable. If they expect me to carry them without any sort of appreciation or recognition they can GTFO. This is a game, I play it to enjoy the experience, not slave over other people's gear lusts.

Honestly it just sounds like you're trying to guilt trip your tanks into being taken advantage of, which counts as epic failure in my book.

Turmoil
07-04-2008, 04:14 PM
Being a tank is a position of service, even more than healing. If you don't enjoy helping others drop your shield....
Have to say, you've hit the nail on the head in my eyes.



I think a lot of people are taking the original post the wrong way. The feeling I got from it was not a load of idiots/alts in greens & blues wanting to be run through heroics... just perhaps people with a couple of blues left, or some 'weaker' epics from karazhan, or people who just plain need the damn badge loot. I wouldn't blame anyone for telling people to get knotted when they want a boost through heroics or kara on their new level 70 alt. I don't think that's what the OP was getting at.

Minya
07-04-2008, 05:31 PM
I can only agree to most of the answers.

As the only prot-warrior in my guild when TBC starts I was exalted most of the 5mans when half of the guildmates even wasn't level 70.

One year later they still blamed me 'cause I did not want to do the same boring instances for their third or fourth alt or the new recruit, that even doesn't want to spend gold to enchant his new tier 6-item the best way..

As a tank you alwas have to be concentrated and have to keep everything going the right way, you can't just stay back and spam frostbolts, keepin one of your hands in your pants or do whatever. At one point, it just gets annoying.
In fact, I DID the same boring instances over and over again to help people with their daily-heroic or whatever but there's a point when you prefer to treat your balls with rusty nails then doing the same instance again.

So am I snobbish just because of that? I don't think so..

I geared up my warri on myself. I geared up my rogue on myself, my pally, my mage.
If I can do it, so they can, too.

So just let your tanks do what they wan't and don't bother them all day to gear up new recruits or alts..

Caoin
07-04-2008, 08:31 PM
Given the fact that a guild generally only has so many tank spots for raids and that people HATE being benched for 25 mans, you can't over-recruit for tank spots, thus leaving you few options for offnight activities that require them.

However, expecting someone who already raids say, 4 nights a week to tank a Kara, a ZA and Heroics on their offnights is way out of line IMO. That's like being required to raid 7 days a week, and it's not fair.

Have people PUG tanks if the guild tanks aren't up for running this that or the other. Requiring your raid tanks to satiate the needs of the entire guild and all their alts 7 days a week will cause you some serious problems with tank retention.

breaklance
07-05-2008, 12:20 AM
Honestly one of the dumbest things I have ever heard.

Tanks are not property, they are players.

I concur.

But as a guild your tanks should be commited enough to run instances and kara to gear new people. if it is alts requesting a tanks services, thats another thing. if theyre turning people down cause theyre undergeared, your officers need to say something, directly to every tank.

Its not the tanks responsibility to gear up these people, but they sure as hell should help when asked. . .

breaklance
07-05-2008, 12:36 AM
Have people PUG tanks if the guild tanks aren't up for running this that or the other. Requiring your raid tanks to satiate the needs of the entire guild and all their alts 7 days a week will cause you some serious problems with tank retention.

Im frankly surprised at the elitism tanks assume. Do yall read what you write because half of you want to doom new players to an endless cycle of karas, others want to doom new tanks to pitiful pugs and being guildless. Then they just respecc pvp, and dollars to dimes, yall are the same people who then bitch about s4 being imba.

If you tank, you assume a leadership position of any group, raid, or guild you come into because of the nature of the job you chose for yourself. Does that mean you have to purposefully go out of your way 24/7 to help people, NO. But when asked you should do what you can to help.

I do, im broke from constantly repairing, but i still find the gold to fund 3 charecters, level their professions, enchant their items, gem their items, build 2 darkmoon card sets, and MT for my guild. I have a job, a girlfreind, freinds, and i still manage to do all this in the 3ish hours i play a day, asides from raid nights.

I'd rather have a clueless person who is willing to help, listen, and learn than someone who is deadset on standing in the fire...

everyone in a guild should be there to progress, and that means helping eachother when possible. For tanks, like always, your called on to do more. But if you cant or wont deal with that put the damn sheild away.

Ciderhelm
07-05-2008, 12:58 AM
Im frankly surprised at the elitism tanks assume. Do yall read what you write because half of you want to doom new players to an endless cycle of karas, others want to doom new tanks to pitiful pugs and being guildless.Doom new players? Doom new tanks? Hyperbole, yikes! New players who need to learn how to play their class are expected to party with new players who need to learn how to play their class. Elitism is when a player who just hits 80 assumes they have the right to by pass content and be carried by people who substantially outgear/outskill them.

Any tank here who has been with their guild through any 25-man content is part of a guild that does not need to complete 5-man content. By the time a guild is in SSC/TK, any 5-man run is a frivolous run that should have zero impact on the progression speed in raid content. That's not to say that you won't still get individual improvements in DPS, etc., but that virtually all guilds who are breaking into this level of content at this stage in the game will already have as much of a push from gear as possible and will be limited primarily by learning curve.

There are plenty of times tanks will run 5-mans. Those tend to coincide with the times DPS'ers and healers would, too. Things like needing gear from an instance, needing badges, needing reputation, or just having some time and wanting to help out a friend or guildie. Many tanks prefer to jump over to Fury to run 5-mans, because DPS is significantly less mind-consuming. However, expecting a tank to offer these services, or expecting an affirmative when you ask them, is selfish.


For these:

everyone in a guild should be there to progress, and that means helping eachother when possible. For tanks, like always, your called on to do more. But if you cant or wont deal with that put the damn sheild away.
Being a tank is a position of service, even more than healing. If you don't enjoy helping others drop your shield....Raid tanking =/= 5-man Tanking =/= Fury DPS =/= PVP. They all require a unique playstyle, benefit from different gear, achieve different goals. Most importantly, they are completely different responsibilities, and suggesting someone's raid MT shouldn't be a tank if they despise 5-man tanking is not only completely illogical, but it's also guild suicide. Or, as Caoin said it:

Requiring your raid tanks to satiate the needs of the entire guild and all their alts 7 days a week will cause you some serious problems with tank retention.The tank's responsibility in WoW or any MMO is to control chaos and learn to not make mistakes. That's the class role. Beyond that, they're expected (like everyone else) to have stable attendance if they're part of a raiding guild, and they're expected to be prepared for the content they're doing.

The tank's responsibility is not to be constantly doing something they don't enjoy so others don't have to go through the unpleasantness of looking for non-guildies or people who, like them, may still need to learn their class. Nevermind that there are always people willing to tank, they just aren't invited to most groups if they aren't geared or aren't a particular spec.

It's a cliche at this point, but WoW is not a job, WoW is not something you should stress yourself out over unless you're doing it to learn to play better. If you love running 5-mans every day, good for you. That's not a particularly good argument for people who don't love it. ;)

Haltira
07-05-2008, 02:36 AM
Im frankly surprised at the elitism tanks assume. Do yall read what you write because half of you want to doom new players to an endless cycle of karas, others want to doom new tanks to pitiful pugs and being guildless. Then they just respecc pvp, and dollars to dimes, ya..........
everyone in a guild should be there to progress, and that means helping eachother when possible. For tanks, like always, your called on to do more. But if you cant or wont deal with that put the damn sheild away.

It isnt elitism when you are NOT interested running karas for undergeared recruits ( that probably shouldnt be in your guild in the 1st place since the gear they have could be miles behind what is needed ) and alt #583 getting kara gear etc.

Lots of us play this game for other reasons than just being tank slaves. I personally think i do my fair share. I have virtually 100% attendance on 25 man raids. Available at the spur of a moments notice for the 25man raid.

Dont get me wrong things like kara/ZA/ 5mans(heroics) they happen but all that stuff is up to me if i want to do them or not, and it stays that way since the second someone comes and asks you need to tank kara for this and that and do 2 heroics / day etc etc is the day i will stop being virtually 100% attendance in the 25mans since at that point it isnt a game and a game for progression anymore it has turned into an unpaid job.

And like i said it looks more like a recruitment problem of undergeared ppl making it thru the OP's screening process. make sure you get recruits that can function at your level of raiding and dont take undergeared ones that ontop of being undergeared needs to have the hand held by tanks grossly outgeared the encounters they need gear from. Those people are in a position where they dont belong they shouldnt be apping to sunwell guilds if you have like 1000 spelldmg

Shortypop
07-05-2008, 03:25 AM
""But when asked you should do what you can to help.""

I guess it all boils down to how much you are asked, I know I got a stage of not logging my tank in as the series of whispers from both guildies, friends and people I didn't know from a bar of pink soap was endless, even when in 5 mans or 25 mans I raids - I'd still get the "Can you tank xxx for us". If I responded saying "look where I am", I got "please afterwards" --- yep sure after spending 3 hours wiping on a new progression boss I'm going to feel up to tanking random people through a heroic!!! And then after 5 hours sleep manage to put in a full days work afterwards.

Part of the problem in recent weeks has been the lack of people running normal level 70 instances, everyone can get heroic keys so you get people who think they shouldn't need to (or genuinely can't find a group) run normal shadow labs for example.

Yes, being a guild tank is a position of responsibility and yes with the general shortage of tanks this means doing more than the normal number of instance runs, but at the same time guild tanks have the duty (shared by every member of the guild) not to get burned out by WoW - the worst thing in the world must be a top 25man tank refusing to log on and quitting wow because of the pressures of 5 man instancing, they have enough to deal with without adding to it.

Every tank finds their own personal limits - whether by previous knowledge or by being burned -- all most of us ask is that limit, once found, is respected.

orcstar
07-05-2008, 04:11 AM
By the time you're doing high level endgame raiding, nontanking warriors, paladins and druids should have had more then enough opportunity to pick up a full set of offspec gear. Even to the degree of making heroics trivial. Heck with good enough gear you don't even need to spec prot and still be able to do the heroics.

Everyone is responsible for the wellbeing of the guild, time for some other people to step in and do the occasional heroic kararun/whatever. And if people say like: I'm dps/healer I'm not gona pick up a tanking set then there seems to be an attitude problem.

Girlie
07-05-2008, 07:17 AM
Why Im basically done with 5mans/kara:

I did them non-stop for the past year with people geared at my level so in my opinion
I put my time in and learned them myself and am done.

Im done with wiping cause people have no clue how to play their toon and getting a 35g
repair bill for "helping" someone out

Im done with that one player in the pug who knows everything and pulls everything
and tells me "just pick it all up"

Im done with telling people "whatch your threat on this pull" (Im thinking skeletal ushers)
only to have the idiots pull, die..cause other people to die and then tell me it's my fault.

Ive played my tank for almost well over a year and a half now. I've leveled her and played every instance heroic and non heroic (cause you used to have to grind the honor to get the key).

I've done kara so many times my eyes bleed. I don't want to carry you through 10 wipes on morose cause the
priest doesn't know where his shackle is and the bored shammy is watching porn (true story ask klor).

It's not fun to run you through stuff to have to PAY to be there. I don't need any gear and I usually lose any roll on a shard over people who have gotten gear. Might it have been nice of the group to let me have a void crystal after each of you got a piece of gear?

Having cleared ZA in my last guild a few times, I no longer want to spend a few hours in there on one boss..I wanna get in..get out.

I spent a long time learning to play my toon. I resent sometimes the demand of people to run them through stuff. There used to be a time when you played your toon and worked on getting better. Now any noob at level 70 gets in a heroic and starts building better and better gear without ever having to actually hone any skill.

With all that said, I still help people out when they need a piece here or there. But my days of pugging are waaay over. I've worked very hard to
get my gear and my level and get in a decent guild (for once) I don't owe anyone anything.

Wulverin
07-05-2008, 09:00 AM
Our guild ran for the longest time with really just two tanks, myself and the other prot warrior who are one of the officers and GM respectively and of course, we're the two primary raid leaders.

Having all that extra responsibility and all the stuff to do that it brings, plus being the only two tanks for the first few months of BC really wore us both out on 5 mans and Kara. We were burnt out on that stuff anyway and then the 2.3 and 2.4 badge frenzies started and guildies would have us in instances tanking 24/7, 7 days a week if they could.

As so many people have said it's really hard to drag your motivation up to a level where you'll say "yes" to a request to tank a heroic/Kara when you've been through it 407680579087 times already. Not to mention the fact that for the majority of well geared tanks worth their salt we all did the whole Heroic/Kara thing when it required a lot more grinding/attunement/gearing up and there weren't showers of welfare epics at every turn.

I now dread logging on in between 25 man raids because I know that I'm going to get asked 300 times to go and tank something so an alt can get geared up or as we're on a very low pop server we've had to recruit some slightly undergeared people and they too need gearing up a bit. All I really want to do in between 25 mans is relax, do some farming, stash a bit of gold and do some PvP for fun. I hate actually saying no to requests to help but I literally would have no time for myself either to relax and have fun or just to prepare for the next week's raids. So, I have to say no and I will actually log off sometimes because if I stay on I know what's coming.

It's not the same issue but it's kind of related, we have had a couple of friends of guildies get into the guild for various reasons over the past year and they've kind of expected to be geared up and dropped in a raid slot. I'm sorry but the rest of us earnt our slots the hard way over a long time. We went throught he whole green > blue > purple gearing process in Outlands through all those instances and where necessary we pug'd a lot of runs to make sure we got that rep and/or item that we needed. If someone now comes along and wants to get their character into a raid then great, all power to you. Show me how much you want it by getting off your arse and sorting your gear out, I'll be way more inclined to help if I see you busting a nut to do everything you can to get yourself raid ready. We had a minor amount of drama because two members in exactly this circumstance were apparently "treated differently" by our officers and we apparently "liked X but disliked Y". The thing was X would spend every minute she could learning about her class and getting gear whilst Y would drift about, log on sporadically and never PUG'd a run in her WoW career. Case in point, I know which of the two I was and am way more likely to help out by tanking a run or two for them.

This next point is a thorny issue as well of course but you really can't get away from it, when I've worked my arse off to get my gear to where it is I want to enjoy it when I'm using it. I can't do that when tanking Kara or Heroics because I get rage starved and have to downgrade my gear. It's a small and relatively trivial point but when a couple of us go to do a heroic and help out an alt or new member and I have to take half my gear off whilst the mage/hunter/whateverthehellotherclass is in their full raid gear performing just as well as they can in MH/BT it chaps my arse a little :P

I do actually enjoy it when we can get a group of my friends within the guild together and go do a fun run through somewhere, have a few beers, relax and take it easy. I find a real concentration/focus/effort issue with going back and doing supposedly 'casual' heroic/Kara runs though and they all too frequently end up in a nightmare. We were supposedly doing one the other week to gear a few alts up and get a few badges and it should have been a breeze. However, partly because the raid tanks are there, a couple of the top healers are there etc. the rest of the group messed about, we wiped, we even failed twice on Shade of Aran..... then people wondered why those of us who it costs and arm and a leg every time we die were getting a little abrasive during a 'fun' run. I'll tank fun runs for you if we're all kicking back and relaxing, so long as you all do what you're supposed to and the actual run goes smoothly. If you're just going to expect to be dragged round, have your loot presented to you and expect one or two of us to save a wipe everytime you mess about then forget it. Just like everyone else I don't want to have to work my butt off on a fun run tanking and controlling like mad because people are careless, breaking CC, pulling threat by hitting the wrong mobs etc etc etc ad nauseum.

It's frustrating as all hell when you know that people perceive us as elitist, unhelpful, selfish, biased towards certain other guild members etc. In actual fact I haven't really met many tanks who don't genuinely want to be helpful. However, at a certain point in time you have to say that me not being burnt out and actually being there to tank SSC/TK/MH/BT next week is actually being more helpful than saying yes to a load of heroic/kara runs only to find that logging on at all has become a chore and I start missing 25 mans.

All I can say is thank god I've got a couple of guys in our guild who have gone and created tank alts (and healing alts for that matter) so that the pain of doing 5/10 mans can be spread amongst more people.

cael
07-05-2008, 11:19 AM
Going back to Kara oh noes!

I transfered from a 25 man raid guild to a new server with former EQ players just starting to level in wow. I've been running them through kara for several months and loved it. It was awesome to see them accomplish new content (even though Im not sure they knew how lucky they were to have 2 overgeared tanks).

Now we're stuck in kara cause of the same old probem of making a 10 man casual into a 25 man raid.....And Im burnt. I dont feel like running 10 mans or heroics for one person to get geared up to the rest of us....so suite me, call me selfish whatever, but we all play to get something out of the game. for me its being a part of groups of people accomplishing a new challenge.

I've raid dps, healed, and tanked... NOTHING IS MORE DEMANDING THEN TANKING...it takes its toll, and tanks should be freakin worshiped for what they do (even bad ones).

Corise
07-05-2008, 01:21 PM
Nevermind that there are always people willing to tank, they just aren't invited to most groups if they aren't geared or aren't a particular spec.

I see this more than anything else. I have seen guild chat spammed by people wanting a tank and then a player who is perfectly geared for tanking their 5 man is told no because what they really want is one of our BT/Hyjal geared tanks. Doing things like this will definitly get a "no" out of me.

But back to the original post, the guild that this player is from looks to be doing Mag/GL encounters and is probably starting SSC/TK. So again I say, people who claim they need 5 man content gear to do these encounters would probably fair better doing some BG's or arena to gear themselves at this point. And if they can find a tank that loves to run 5 mans then stick with him. Have them read equivocal's Guide To Pugging (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/blogs/equivocal/941-art-puging-part-i.html), it was quite interesting and it may help them find tanks, also might help you find new tanks if you are not satisfied with your current ones.

Ciderhelm
07-05-2008, 09:03 PM
Lots of lip service in here. "I tank because I love tanking. I love being in control, I love making decisions, blah blah blah." Bull. If you love it so much, you'd do it whenever you could. You'd jump at every chance you could get. The truth is, you all tank because it feeds your egos. No more, no less. If that weren't the reason, you'd be a DPS class, or a healer.

That is probably the single most retarded statement that has been made in this thread. Excuse me while I clear the damage meters off my screen.

Wulverin
07-05-2008, 09:04 PM
That is probably the single most retarded statement that has been made in this thread. Excuse me while I clear the damage meters off my screen.

I laughed long and hard at that one.

klor
07-05-2008, 10:19 PM
It's also refusing to help others when asked because you've seen it all, done it all, and bought the T-shirt, and how dare these minions pester me with their menial labors, yah?



So what? I don't love tanking 5-man stuff either. But I did it for over two years. I've leveled up two tanks - warrior and druid. I've leveled up three DPS - hunter, mage, and rogue. And now that I've done these two roles, I'd much rather DPS than tank. But when I'm playing my warrior, I do my job. If I didn't want to tank, I'd spec freakin' arms or fury, and never pick up a shield again.

Lots of lip service in here. "I tank because I love tanking. I love being in control, I love making decisions, blah blah blah." Bull. If you love it so much, you'd do it whenever you could. You'd jump at every chance you could get. The truth is, you all tank because it feeds your egos. No more, no less. If that weren't the reason, you'd be a DPS class, or a healer. You want to be the guy in the front that pulls everything together for the group/raid.

And I have to laugh at the people saying "If DPS wants to gear up, let them pug tanks." And what should new tanks do, when they have all the gear we had, and they're rejected because they're NOT a raid tank? Because they're NOT a prot pally, or they DON'T have 20k HP in their fresh Felsteel set?

Ah well. What do I know? My rogue's more damn fun than my tank any day.


I just want to quote all of this simply because it shows exactly why most tanks stop tanking things they have done for such a long time.

You claim quite a bit about alot of tanks that is really just your own oppinion more than anything else. Some people tank for the control factor, some people tank because they enjoy it...some don't. Some just do it because they are good at it and they got fed up with dealing with people that were not. (We all know there are tons of terrible tanks otu there). However, we do it because we want to do it. Not because its a job, not because our boss says we have too. This is a game. I will be honest, I picked up the tank duty because no one else in my first guild could or would. It was that, or not see anything of the game beyond what little instances I could get into as a fury warrior with pug groups (which most people know is not much at all when your gear is less than subpar.) I worked my tail off gearing up, researching, doing everything I could to better myself to better my guild. I did not have more than 10K health unbuffed when I first stepped into Karazhan. I spent weeks wiping on Moroes because it was quite a road block for a guild whose tank was not 'epic'd' nor were the healers or dps. Keep in mind, this was back when gear was not so easy to get. You either had the full dungeon set blues with a mix of heroic epics and the few pieces of badge gear that existed, or you didnt. Now adays, gear is flooded out every corner of the map. You can do dailies and get heroics with ease. Sit in a battleground for 3 hours, buy an epic... I mean the list just goes on and on. Does this mean those tanks with 12K hp that do not work on their gear and just want to skip steps should be our responsibility to pick up the slack where they left off? No. Its blizzard's fault for the way they eased the path of progression allowing people who should not be able to enter heroics able to enter heroics, removing attunements for places such as Kara (which should still be in place to set a small stoppage of those people looking for a free ride) and then you wish to come here to complain because those tanks who put in their time, put in their effort... they dont want to tank to gear up people who haven't done the same? If that makes us 'elitists', then so be it. I spent my time in a karazhan guild for over a year, then spent another 5 months in za. Most of my guildies dont even bother asking me to tank five mans anymore because unless its a dire need (such as some of our people needing a run or two in thrallmar or mech for a head enchant) I typically wont do it. I would much rather sit in shat on my dragon and idle while doing other things or even play my alt. I have a shaman that I geared up on my own, pugging kara, za, etc and now he tops the healing meters in BT and Hyjal. Not once did i tell tanks in the guild they had to 'help' me gear out my alt. I hope you somewhat see where the tanks are coming from here.

I mean honestly, I love to tank. I love to tank..things that I want to tank. I refuse to tank things because people tell me I have to. I come here for enjoyment. If I dont enjoy it, I won't do it. I am sure many of you dps have done the same thing. You have refused to run instances because you didnt want to or because you had better things to do, but you're dps. You're easily replaceable so it goes unnoticed. When a main tank tells people no, all hell breaks loose.

One thing I forgot to add. The biggest reason I stopped tanking things for people... was the day I got invited to a ZA on my shaman to heal. In the 10 seconds it took me to switch characters from my warrior to my shaman, I had gotten replaced by a -better- shaman. Then the group had the nerve to tell me that I could come tank it because they needed a tank. Keep in mind, I had been asking all day to heal a ZA because my shaman is sitting right at the gear level that he could 2 heal it, but he has 0 drops from there. This was a guild run as well, so needless to say, guildies know not to ask me to tank stuff anymore when they treat me like that. I am there to raid tank, whether it be progression or farm, but 10mans are not part of that, thus i have nothing that says I have to do it.

Bodasafa
07-05-2008, 10:36 PM
Lots of lip service in here. "I tank because I love tanking. I love being in control, I love making decisions, blah blah blah." Bull. If you love it so much, you'd do it whenever you could. You'd jump at every chance you could get. The truth is, you all tank because it feeds your egos. No more, no less. If that weren't the reason, you'd be a DPS class, or a healer. You want to be the guy in the front that pulls everything together for the group/raid.

Ah well. What do I know? My rogue's more damn fun than my tank any day.

You dont have a clue son. I cant even begin to tell you how wrong what you said is. Please just go play your rouge instead of making yourself look stupid.

Tanking is fun. Just like DPS'n is fun. Anyone who plays any class does so for enjoyment. This is a game, its saposed to be fun eh? So if somone decides they dont want to do somthing because it isnt fun for them, NO MATTER WHAT CLASS. You should dam well respect that.

Foolishness
07-05-2008, 10:53 PM
I would often rather pug with geared experienced people, than run under geared and under skilled guild members through heroics.

When i first started tanking, i never did anything with my guild because I wanted to learn how to play and get some gear before i wasted any of my guild members time. I did the hard yards and got gear through rep, normal instances etc before moving onto heroics. In a way i expect the kind of effort from my fellow guild members.

I do not look kindly upon a fresh toon in all greens/ blues/pvp epics wanting a heroic magisters run, no matter who they are

Sure being able to play well doesn't come from gear, but my philosophy is that most of the time, you probably have not learned the finer points of your class until you actually have the heroic/ rep gear. You don't learn to play from leveling. Theres plenty of budding and enthusiastic tanks pugging instances. If they are not choosing you, your armory probably doesn't look good enough yet, or you might have a stupid class like a boomkin. Any class that cannot CC has to gear up much more than a mage/rogue before they will become useful enough to bring to a group as far as i'm concerned.

ttocs
07-06-2008, 12:09 AM
I came on to help out and do my job, which is tanking. I didn't come on to be a guild's bitch.

As a tank that has been in sunwell since 2.4 PTR, heroics are not interesting. MgT was interesting when 2.4 came out for a short while, and while I'll still tank it every once in a while because it can still be challenging, it's silly to run someone's alt through heroic mech again.

What am I doing on my off time? I'm on my rogue, either farming or doing dailies, or whatever. Or reading up/watching videos on the current progression boss.

Does that mean I won't help out on our Gruul DST run to get our main raiders a shot at a trinket that's eluded them for over a year? No.

With that said, my guild still runs BT every week, because some people need stuff from there. Some people came out of retirement to help us out in sunwell, some people rerolled toons... when we killed twins, we had two alts in there that were healers, since we stack 10-11 healers there - they're in full T6.

Fortunately, I haven't run into too much issue in this guild. The other tanks are far more lazy than I am when it comes to heroics, and we have a fair amount of properly-geared alt tanks that can run instances up to and including early BT/Hyjal.

Don't expect anyone to do anything for you, and don't expect anyone to pay you back. And, as far as I'm concerned, favors aren't currency. I would be more willing to help someone who has helped me, but I don't expect an even exchange of "I'll run you through this, you run me through that".

gyre
07-06-2008, 01:02 AM
I'm a 5/8 T6 BT/MH/SWP MT.

However, I actually *enjoy* joining the LFG channel at 2am in the morning, and just waiting for a group to post missing a tank for a heroic (or even normal) 5-man.

Why am I so silly? Probably cos I love just doing a leeroy in heroic ramparts etc. with no crowd control. It's actually fun to see how much you can take on :)

I do weekly kara runs with undergeared guilds or even pugs, for the fun, and also to get badges which I turn into gems and then cash, which pays for the next week's repairs and consumables. :)

What I won't do, however, is be pressured into doing anything I don't want to do. Guilt trips don't work on me, ever. In fact, they're more likely to have the opposite effect of what the giver planned.

I need a life :)

-- gyre --

Loon
07-06-2008, 03:42 AM
Pugged 95% of all my instance rep with pug's on normal (i'm exalted with every instance faction in tbc), so would say i have done my fair share of instances now.
so now im "allergic" to pug's and basicly every instance, both normal and heroic.

one thing alot of ppl tend to forget is that tanks normaly have to farm res sets that nobody else have to, and it's not like every guild help out their tanks with that.
on my server, then basicly everything that tanks uses (flask/elixir/pots etc) cost roughly 25% more then what a healer or dps char would pay, so i tend to use alot of time doing daylies on some of my alts for gold.


so dont expect us (tanks) to stop what we're doing (farming, daylies etc), because some lazy as* kid cba to gear up his char to have a decent gear lvl for heroic/kara or whatever.

Dreadski
07-06-2008, 02:14 PM
I believe this thread qualifies as one of the most epic I've ever seen. Every time I scroll to the bottom a new page is added.

I agree with pretty much 95% of the posts here. We worked our asses off in pugs and heroics for months on end to get the gear we have now (starting to clear BT). My job is certainly NOT to gear up the alts of greedy players, nor is it my job to gear up undergeared apps, in fact it's rare that we recruit them but their expectation is set from the start. I also lead 99% of my guild's raids, I learn the trash ahead of time and pound strats into people's heads. After the raids I'll farm if I have time, or answer whispers from potential apps and our own raiders (can I get in? can i get that epic gem out of the bank?). It's not that I don't want to help you or that I think you somehow don't deserve it, but I've got more important things to do that affect the main reason you joined the guild in the first place. Raids. On top of all this I work 40+ hours a week and maintain a gym membership which I attend 4 days a week (between work and getting home to start up the raids).


/fart GO PUG YOURSELF

Bubalus
07-07-2008, 01:42 AM
In our guild we have 5-8 geared tanks who can tank well yet will not run heroics/kz/za if their life depended on it and would rather spend time doing other stuff in game (aka circling shatt). And only show up for ssc/tk/gruuls etc

This doesnt help some of our lesser geared dps/heals get BOJ gear and speed our progression up somewhat.

We have put in guild note for tanks to "offer" to run dps/heals 1-2 heroics a day (ie the easy ones sp/mech etc) which take around an hour of their time.

Well this hasnt really changed their veiws.

Any suggestions?
I only tank 25 mans and the occasional kara for badges.
reason i don't tank 5mans is simple , i'm deadtired and sick of them , i ran all of them a idiotic number of times, they don't have any loot i need anyway.
I can't push myself to go in there, i can't stand most of them tbh.
Also i can't understand anymore how some people manage to srew up in 5mans , usually some dps-er, and wipe the party.
The only times i still tank 5mans is when i'm on my alt , can't find a tank and get so sick of it that I log my own tank to steamroll the place.
Za i don't do anymore too, i gotten so sick of the dragon hawk boss and people who keep dying there that i can't set myself to enjoy the place anymore as a tank , kitty i got less of a problem with it.

Treenaa
07-07-2008, 02:52 AM
I posted back on the first page of this thread, and while I've been following it, I've avoided adding any more fuel to the fire until now. That being said, the accusations that people that post they don't want to tank outside raids are being elitist and ego driven is one I feel needs to be addressed.

This isn't the first time I've heard complaints that tanks are all full of ourselves and that we tank to feed our big ego's. I'll admit that there is some truth to that statement, but I assert that it applies to anyone that has ever considered themselves a serious raider regardless of the role they fill. Why else would you be a contributing member of a raiding group that is trying to push the limits of what they can achieve? Lets be honest with ourselves and look at what we are accomplishing and what we aren't.

We aren't paying the rent or putting food on the table by playing a game. Instead we are paying money to Blizzard for the service they provide us by making WoW available. I believe the majority of us aren't doing it as a serious attempt at dating. Just the opposite, I'm willing to bet that every guild has had at least one member that has undergone a divorce or had work/school problems related to the amount of time they have spent in this virtual world we all share. Since this game obviously isn't fulfilling any physical needs we have, what are we getting out of it?

If your a serious raider, then you are playing for your ego. You desire the feeling of accomplishment you get from being a part of a successful team. Regardless of the role you play in that complex boss kill, everyone wants that rush that comes from executing a strategy and seeing the digital monster laying dead at your digital feet. On the flip side, no one wants to wipe on the boss. If we want to be technical, we could say that being successful raiders allows us all to meet our Self-Actualization Needs, the highest level of Maslow's hierarchy of needs. The more complex and generally higher level of play required to succeed against a raid encounter provides a correspondingly higher level of personal fulfillment. How does all that apply to not tanking outside of raids? I'm glad you asked that.

As people have pointed out numerous times in this thread, 5-man tanking is not the same as raid tanking. I'm not going to say it is inherently worse or better, just different. Is it any wonder that this different experience equates to a different sense of fulfillment? I don't think so. Because it is a different accomplishment, with different rewards, it makes sense to take that one step further and acknowledge that it may not be providing some people with the self-actualization they get from raiding. If that's why they play the game in the first place then it is no wonder and completly understandable that they wouldn't want to do it. Implying that people shouldn't have a tank spec or should go play a dps or healer if they aren't going to do their "job" whenever it's demanded of them for a 5-man is just silly and unrealistic. Saying that it is "owed" just displays a self-centered sense of entitlement worse than any that can be attributed to an "elitist" tank.

ceffo
07-07-2008, 05:10 AM
ORIGINAL POster here.

Well gee this thread GOT VERY LONG :p i must have hit a real nerve


Well basically what i should have put in the original POSt was that there were tanks in the guild who still had alot of badge farming to do in their spare time to gear up and could do with the upgrades. They can tank in terms of knowledge. But sometimes skill isnt going to stop your getting smashed if u dont have the gear in 25's.

Yet all they do is log in for 25mans and "hope" something will drop.

Im also burnt out as an officer of teh guild and will do a heroic a day to keep my reflexes in check. I took 2 weeks off and recently forgot my rotations on multi mobs :confused:

I DO undertsand where everyone is coming from BTW. Im in the same boat.

Bonerot
07-07-2008, 05:49 AM
As a CL for warriors and doing the tank assignments in the 25's I have no expectation that any of our primary tanks do anything at all that makes the game less fun for them outside of the 25 man raids. Whatever makes them happy is good for me, you can find a new 5 man tank but getting a good raid tank who works well in a team isn't as easy especially if you aren't on the top of the raiding content.

I won't tank for alts. I would have no issues with tanking a speed clear of Kara with all the similarly geared raiders in my guild (not all of them no) but I'm not going to work my ass off while people work on alts.

Do I have all the gear I could possibly get via badges? No, not all of them but my gear is still well above the level of the guilds progression, if we wipe on a 25 man raid it's not going to be because of my gear.

So I guess be happy they log on to Tank the 25's if they are good players and make a rule that people aren't allowed to harass or guilt anyone in the guild into running them though instances. This is especially important for healers and tanks, don't burn them out doing trivial content and other people will make alts to fill in the low level gaps.

No idea if any of these apply to your guild but do remember that players are expendable resources, they have only so much to give before they get burnt out and stop playing and no one is asked more of then good tanks and healers.

Fubar
07-07-2008, 12:13 PM
The burnout factor could probably be attributed to itemization imbalance in WoW as well. It is easier for some classes/professions to get requisite raid gear without having to run 5/10 mans over and over. Perhaps this is why they don't burn out as fast as tanks do.

As a 64 shadow priest alt, I have 3 pieces of the frozen shadow weave set, and 2 pieces of the spell strike set already crafted/gemmed/chanted and sitting in my bank for me to hit 70. The FSW set is so good people are holding them into black temple. My main hand, off hand, 1 trinket and neck will all come from badge rewards or SSO rep. I think in total it is only 250 badges at most. Boots will come from BG's just sitting there having a good time, a decent cloak can be crafted or badged. Arguably, I'd be ready to play in T5 content once I get the rep for the glyphs I need.

Now, look at the warrior itemization. HMech 22 times for the sun eater. Not seeing the Kings Defender until, I had the Mallet of Tides already. Hoping and praying that murmur wouldn't be a cheap bastard again (8x) and drop my of the Bold Shoulders, then again at Netherspite for epic shoulders. Even with the badge loot, many of us had enough badges to get a great belt, then saved even more badges for it's replacement in 2.4. I refuse to DE my Devilshark cape, just because of the epic ass pain of puggery it took for me to get it.

Any sort of crafting will give a tank 1-2 pieces of raid T4 = raid gear. Maybe a sword, maybe a chest, maybe a helm with resiliance. But it is nothing like the tailoring profession.

Really, running 5 or 10 mans now is a headache, I don't want to do it any longer. It's not fun or enriching for me any longer. The thought of running alts just makes me cringe.

Lavache
07-07-2008, 12:22 PM
Well basically what i should have put in the original POSt was that there were tanks in the guild who still had alot of badge farming to do in their spare time to gear up and could do with the upgrades. They can tank in terms of knowledge. But sometimes skill isnt going to stop your getting smashed if u dont have the gear in 25's.

Yet all they do is log in for 25mans and "hope" something will drop.


hi OP :)

this is a much different problem than people only logging in for raids. your tanks should be jumping at the opportunities to get new gear outside of raids. i realize burnout happens to all of us from time to time. when the new badge gear hit i wasnt anywhere close to what i needed in terms of badges, but i slowly chugged away with an occasional heroic, a weekly ZA and the badges from 25man bosses. now i have everything i need and have 75 badges sitting in the bank accumulating dust. you should impress on them that getting the gear is important to their success as a tank and frequently the success of the encounter relies on the tank being able to stand up and not get splattered across the floor. if they continue to just hope gear drops, you need to find new tanks that will work a little for their gear. as you mention below - heroics are also good for keep up on reflexes and multi-mob pulling, both of which tend to deteriorate when you only raid tank. i sometimes have to force myself to tank heroics simply so i remember how to watch 5 mobs at once with limited CC and omen and keep an eye out for patrols - and more importantly how to keep my healer from getting killed should something get loose.

Lavache
07-07-2008, 12:26 PM
The burnout factor could probably be attributed to itemization imbalance in WoW as well.

Any sort of crafting will give a tank 1-2 pieces of raid T4 = raid gear. Maybe a sword, maybe a chest, maybe a helm with resilience. But it is nothing like the tailoring profession.

ive been saying this for ages now...

if it makes you feel better fubar, i never saw the bold shoulders until after i had my T5 - and i ran that dump three or four times a week untill i could have been exalted twice over.

Fubar
07-07-2008, 02:34 PM
Lav... I hear ya, painful. I actually saw the Devilshark on the second run into SV. The PuG pally healer needed for it saying that his primary role is a tank but respec'd for the SV run for the Devilshark. /facepalm.

The first Kings Def I saw was in our first chess event ever, I was out Dkp'd by our pally tank. /wrist

I think all of the warrior drops are cursed, except for shields (Gruuls and Kasrogol drops for us). I remember reading in these forums a totally badass warrior stuck with jade-skull into T5 content and that reaffirmed my belief. Cursed, or a game mechanic to keep tanks in the game.

If anyone told me I tank for my ego, or I should lay down my shield, I'd just shove them back in their high school locker after stealing their lunch money; once I hit Sun Eater and run number 22, HMechanar can KMA.

Bodasafa
07-07-2008, 03:27 PM
Ill second that notion that tank drops are cursed.

I ran Shadow Labs probably 40 times i kid you not, till exualted twice over for those shoulders of the bold. Then 2 weeks later they were replaced with the ones from Netherspite in Kara.

The D3 Chest in ARC never droped and I farmed that place almost as much as Shadow Labs.

Now my new pain in the ass is the Jungle Stompers in ZA. Im up to about 35 runs. I have been going 1-2 times a week since January this year.

Sometimes with as much as tanks complain about the Sun Eater and other drops I listed above, plus some others I didnt, I wonder if that statment about blizz setting it up that way is true.

We endure the hardest part of this game as we are so heavely dependent on drops for our gear as we progress.

There are no craftables that are equivilant to what you can get in raids.

And speaking of craftables let me tell you how much of a joy it was to farm somthing like 48 primal fires for my frost set. That I dont even use for Hydross, I tank him in my nature set cause the other tanks dont have a maxed out one.

Sorry venting a bit lol....

So ya I do it for my ego..

Girlie
07-07-2008, 03:36 PM
Ill second that notion that tank drops are cursed.

I ran Shadow Labs probably 40 times i kid you not, till exualted twice over for those shoulders of the bold. Then 2 weeks later they were replaced with the ones from Netherspite in Kara.

The D3 Chest in ARC never droped and I farmed that place almost as much as Shadow Labs.

Now my new pain in the ass is the Jungle Stompers in ZA. Im up to about 35 runs. I have been going 1-2 times a week since January this year.
Sometimes with as much as tanks complain about the Sun Eater and other drops I listed above, plus some others I didnt, I wonder if that statment about blizz setting it up that way is true.

We endure the hardest part of this game as we are so heavely dependent on drops for our gear as we progress.

There are no craftables that are equivilant to what you can get in raids.

And speaking of craftables let me tell you how much of a joy it was to farm somthing like 48 primal fires for my frost set. That I dont even use for Hydross, I tank him in my nature set cause the other tanks dont have a maxed out one.

Sorry venting a bit lol....

So ya I do it for my ego..


you will never beat my 7 month epic quest for KD that I replaced the very next week with Mallet of Tide! (herm..I wonder why I won't do Kara anymore)

the boots..I just got this past week. I believe klor promised me them way back when. To be fair, I think for 2 months I didn't touch ZA, but what dropped when I went was Fury..and once I saw some cloth..I think..or it could have been another Fury and my sad mind wouldn't wrap around the idea.

Kazeyonoma
07-07-2008, 03:56 PM
I still don't have KD =( Luckily I got a Cleaver after 1 year of using The Sun Eater O_o.

clavarnway
07-07-2008, 04:31 PM
As a 64 shadow priest alt, I have 3 pieces of the frozen shadow weave set... Boots will come from BG's just sitting there having a good time

There are FSW boots ;p

Minya
07-07-2008, 06:52 PM
Lav... I hear ya, painful. I actually saw the Devilshark on the second run into SV. The PuG pally healer needed for it saying that his primary role is a tank but respec'd for the SV run for the Devilshark. /facepalm.

The first Kings Def I saw was in our first chess event ever, I was out Dkp'd by our pally tank. /wrist

I think all of the warrior drops are cursed, except for shields (Gruuls and Kasrogol drops for us). I remember reading in these forums a totally badass warrior stuck with jade-skull into T5 content and that reaffirmed my belief. Cursed, or a game mechanic to keep tanks in the game.

If anyone told me I tank for my ego, or I should lay down my shield, I'd just shove them back in their high school locker after stealing their lunch money; once I hit Sun Eater and run number 22, HMechanar can KMA.

devilshark cape? I thought blizz took it out of the game... I ran SV 3-4 times a week, for months. It never dropped. (when I had a'lars cloak and badge-cloak I saw it drop during an alt-run in SV..)

shields? did gruul for months to farm DST for our rogues. he dropped his shield exactly one time.
waitet 2 and a half month on kaz'rogals..

In the end, Illidan dropped his bullwark in our firstkill, yay!
and we lootet KD every ID for months, awesome :f

overall, I have to agree, that gearing up a tank is way harder than equippen an DD (specially mage/lock/spriest).

squishmitten
07-07-2008, 08:44 PM
Get alts in there to tank your heroics. Tanking content you horribly out gear can get boring/frustrating. Rage/mana starvation blows.

My tank started off as an alt, geared up completely through heroics and Kara and jumped right into tanking SSC/TK. I do help out guildies with runs, but I'm much more likely to help people who are willing to pug things.

A priest in my guild claimed he was unable to get his SR neck chain completed because he couldn't find a guild run going to Arc to talk to the seer there. There is no way I would help someone who is that apathetic. Pugs suck, but not always. I've been in a few spectacular pugs. Its a great way to scout new members and make people interested in appying to your guild.

All things said and done, getting badges is very very easy. Pug kara, pug heroics, stick too it and don't freak out if you wipe a bit.

Zusterke
07-08-2008, 07:53 AM
Greetings,

I would like to contribute to this (very long) thread, by sharing my view as a healer on this problem. I feel there is a lot of frustration and anger when it comes to burned up tanks. I feel for tanks, I really do. Though for some points, I feel they are general problems and not specific to the tank:
- being overgeared for the content or having run the same content is bad for everyone. There is the rage problem... but down/sidegrading gear works. Even I do that ;)
- "Everytime something goes wrong it's the tank's fault!". Healers get their share of the blame & rants. The blaming problem is shared by all players who carry responsibility in a group. The tank is one of them, but not the only one.
- "I helped 50+ guys gear up and got nothing" I feel for people like that, having done the same. It's not a matter of being a tank but it is frustrating, i'll admit!

And some complex issues..

high death cost
This is such a sensitive point to talk about and there is a lot of aggrevation involved. The tank's repair/pot bill is easily twice or three times as high as mine, per death. But my death count is easily twice or three times theirs (especially when there's adds and it's 10 or 25-man content). We too invest gold, time & effort in that very same run! My first Kara runs costed about 140g in elixirs/flasks & pots alone whereas the tank's repair/pot costs would never reach that number. For 5-man's however, I wholehearthly agree & feel with the tank's exorbitant repair costs. I just want to point out that one expensive repair bill shouldn't forbid one from acknowledging others can have expensive runs too.

Group oriented role
The tank's role and performance is group oriented. DPS, on the other hand, is rather self-centered. Although the DPS players themselves are not necessarily self-centered, their group role (in terms of gamemechanics) seems to inhale group effort and exhale epeen. As if fast runs & bosskills are theirs to claim. It is not! But try telling that against their damagemeter and "/flex"-emotes. There is little social reward, respect or acknowledgement of the tank's true performance.

Leadership
Unique to tanking, is the natural position to be a leader in 5-mans. This is very hard in a virtual, multicultural, multilingual environment dominated by young men.
Sociology & science tell us that:
- young boys and men(< age 20) are naturally more self-centered. It sounds like a cliché, but there is actually a brain/mental-'problem'. Young men sometimes still need to physically (as in brain-wise) develop their social abilities. Untill then, some are inapt (or unable) to understand emotions from someone other than themselves. In some studies, many young boys interpreted 'calm & explanatory' behavior as insulting and offensive.
- young boys and men are still in search of an identity or in search of social confirmation. This leads to high competitivity and eagerness to prove themselves or achieve domination over another player. The paired insecurity they feel makes them swift to anger and eager to express their emotions in an aggressive way.
- a virtual international, multicultural environment makes communication more tricky or difficult.

Combine these factors and you have one heck of a leading job! And not the most rewarding, I warrant.

Numbers in raids < numbers in 5-mans
The tank / dps / healer ratio for 25 man raids is:
12%-16% / 55% / 29%
For 5-mans this is:
20% / 60% / 20%

This is not a healthy proportion :( The PvP world tends to visit 5-man content too but delivers little else than DPS and a handful of healers. And as more tanks burn up, the pve world is lacking ever more tanks.
I believe the culmination of these factors produced a burden too hard to bear for many tanks. I keep tanks in high esteem though. They sacrificed solo progression for the group and get little reward for it. As of late, even the group's respect & acknowledgement of this fact is limited if not gone. I feel I can relate to that as a healer, but I do believe tanks have a tougher job socially.

The tank shortage has reached a level I can no longer log on the game and expect to find a group+tank for anything other than a planned raid. Eventually, I rolled a warrior alt destined to become a great tank some day. While my fellow tanks may have burned up, I found them eager to help, teach and accompany me (on their dps alt) to become a better tank. I take this is proof that their social mindset, natural leadership and group feeling is alive, only hidden under a rock :)

Tank
07-08-2008, 08:11 AM
We are in T6 content atm but I still run 5man heroic content with guildies now and then.

But we usually do heroic for the reason of getting mount and badges.
Sometimes i run heroics to practice on speed and efficiency.

In any case i dun really think it is the burn out but rather your tank (like me) could have started off pugging 5man content all the way to heroic, join guild 10 man raid and 25 man raid. So can you imagine running like the same instance day after day, it can be really boring.

Seriously, i cant even remember the number of pug mech, SH and other instance that I have run to get gear and rep. So spare some thoughts for your tank.

ThreeKills
07-08-2008, 12:02 PM
It is a guild recruiting problem.

You need to have constant recruitment, especially of under-geared players/classes.

I think, in a smoothly run guild, that you need membership of 30% Tanks, 30% Healers and 40% DPS at any given time.

Make it as easy as possible to get new group make-ups into instances.

If you see that the same 5 people are burning through content together, be proactive in splitting them up and spreading them around to other players in the guild.

If your guild had a "cool kids" or "first into the heroics" clique, you get to pay the price for it now.

Recruit constantly.

Let the best rise to the top, but keep funneling new members in.

Krashtork
07-08-2008, 01:56 PM
This "Tank shortage" is not unexpected or irregular. It is natural for tanks to be burnt out by the end of an expansion. Remember before TBC launched and finding tanks for 5 mans was near impossible? I do. That's why i rolled tank. Around TBC launch tanks seemly spawned out of the very landscape of TBC. It was as if all the tanks had been taken off azeroth and were abducted to outlands to play frisbee golf until TBC launched.

Now as the 5 man content has become disgustingly common place and cliche' it is once again hard to find a tank.

As soon as WoTLK hits, tanks will once again spring forth from the woodwork. The content will be fresh, which will match the attitudes of the tanks. Add onto this that there will be a new tanking class. Until then, expect to have a rough time finding tanks.

We tanks LIVE for new content. When the content gets stale, so does our attitude about running it.

It's all just a big cycle. Fresh content, lots of tanks, as content gets older, fewer tanks.

Nortibiry
07-09-2008, 11:29 AM
I've found myself in the situation of not wanting to tank old content, somewhat to my surprise, and feel a little guilty about it. I think in my case there are two main factors:

First, the expansion is getting old, and I have tanked the five and ten man content a lot. It can be fun once in a while, but often as not I just don't feel like it or enjoy it anymore. I know all the pulls, I know what the mobs are going to do, and the biggest challenge is working with the limitations of whatever new alt has found it's way into the group.
Secondly, while I like to help people out, I have helped a lot of people out already. I can't even imagine how many times I've done the various attunement quests and heroics. It felt like I had keyed half the server for Karazhan back when I was actually running Karazhan, and now it really does feel like an unending, thankless task. So it's not so much that I don't want to help people, as that I have already helped people. A lot of people. A whole lot of people.

I think most of the people here get it, maybe some of these reasons will filter down to the rest of the world and everyone will understand each other better. And lastly to the OP I fully agree that people raiding (at least progression raiding) really should be putting in the time to get non-raid upgrades. There's not a lot of excuse to not be working on badge gear as if you don't already have it all, tank or otherwise. It is free loot.

Koch
07-10-2008, 06:25 AM
I think I am in the lucky situation of only just approaching this burnout situation. My gear is now close to optimal for the instances our guild is capable of doing. We managed to put together three groups for Zul Aman, but can't quite scrape enough players for a 25-man instance.

That obviously limits progress a tad. Still - now that the summer holidays has actually brought people to the game again, we are progressing on a single raid night in the 25 mans. Got three bosses in The Eye and two in SSC in five nights of playing.

All those of us who wanted great gear (and I think there is a playstyle difference here) spent a lot of time going for badges and Zul Aman drops. They are, in fact, better than most of the early SSC/The Eye drops as far as I can see.

That also meant that each and every one of the tanks, healers and DPS usually in the 10-man raids spent a lot of their time doing daily heroics. Mainly because it is incredibly efficient.

While we can clear Kara completely in 3 hours 30 minutes for 22 badges, we can also run a heroic botanica in 1 hour 15 minutes for 7 badges. Which is approximately the same and fits in nicely before dinner, just after sending the kids to bed.

That gives the social raiding guilds (is there such a thing) with decidedly slower progress something to do.

It does not, however, solve the original posters problem. We all go with the people that form our 10-man raids (or 25 now .. but I don't want to jinx that attempt). We know those instances backwards and can just breeze through - and actually survive the mishaps that come with being careless and pulling a group too many or the boss with the last group.

We do - on occasion - take along someone who is not fully geared up. Of course they can fill the group if no one else is available. It's much better than sitting around. But the catch is in the "if no one else is available". No one likes dragging undergeared players around.

Is this what I'd like to do? Well to be completely honest: No. My gear should be fine for 25 man instances - probably even the higher ones. The same goes for many of our DPS and healers. Yet the guild as a whole is not up to serious raiding - and that was not the thing we were looking for as well.

We are well behind the power curve of serious raiding guilds ... but we are now beginning to run into the same problems. Our tanks and healers are playing other games or just playing around on alts because we finally reached the maximum possible we can do. Realistically speaking I won't see a Bulwark of Azzinoth drop before WotLK comes out. I wish I could - I love new content as much as the next tank - but it's not going to happen.

I am looking forward to new content, though - content that is available to me. The game seems to have trouble adding content at a proper pace for everyone, though: The hardcore raiders need new, tough 25-man instances. We as a guild need a new, tough 10-man instance and of course there are always late arrivals, server transferrers, new class try-outers and just slow people who need 5-man content to gear up on.

In a reasonable amount of time - and that does include waiting for an instance group to actually happen. It's no use finishing mechanar in 35 minutes if you have to wait 2 hours for it to go.

Slept
07-11-2008, 07:21 AM
I can see ZA bear runs being the next burn out for me. As the only prot pally in my guild, I've tanked every single successful run we've had.

After 15 or so runs, I still enjoy them to a degree, but the groups are getting progressively more "B team" as our top raiders get their mount and lose interest in helping others get their mount. I'm sure the inevitable failed run is going to happen due to new people not knowing the instance, and I'm certain it's going to piss me off. :p

Crimsonstorm
07-11-2008, 01:11 PM
The reasons I never tank 5 mans anymore are:

1) Tanking 5 mans is more difficult (intense) than tanking 25 mans. Having to deal with all of the (uncced) mobs on every pull, and having to ensure that no one ever pulls aggro on any mob is quite difficult. Multi target tanking is far harder than single target.

2) There is ZERO reward. I dont need badges anymore because 25 mans and 10 mans give me WAY more badges. Nor do I need any of the gear or primal nethers.


As to tank %ages: The endgame raid instances (Sunwell, BT, Hyjal) all require a VERY low number of tanks. You can pretty much get through the entire endgame with 3 tanks maximum in the raid, and many fights you need only 1-2. The result is that only about 10% of your guild should actually be tanks. If you have more than this you are screwing yourself by spreading the gear out too much.

Edgar
07-12-2008, 05:39 PM
I actually look more forward to heroics than to 25mans. Not sure why, maybe i want to push my self to be faster and faster and time my runs to beat myself. Of course this is only possible with a solid group of people i know / guildies. I still imagine it to be a lot of fun.

Helping undergeared guildmates or twinks i guess would be no problem for me. On the other hand that might change and i may start hating heroics after a while, i hope i don't.

CyCy
07-14-2008, 01:11 PM
Our main tank guild officer is the person we offer to help with his alts. He is the guy who keeps you alive and gets you to progress. To say they should help newbs that your tier 1 rogue recruited is BS. ALT LEVEL a tank yourself that's what my Cycy toon is for. However I help out his alts with SM and ZF ord BRD runs that he usually grabs me for runs when he is bored.

Let your Druids get a decent set of tank gear and run the heroics. I have a 70 druid on smolderthorn and let the newbs pay for the repec and my repairs.

After posting notes like that on guild your lucky you have any tanks at all. Imagine a note to priests "please heal regular instances for our pre 70's if they ask. How long you gonna have healers. But to have to read crap like that every time you log on? I would rather go solo and tank trash then help anyone who thinks I owe them that.

Haltira
07-14-2008, 01:55 PM
I can see ZA bear runs being the next burn out for me. As the only prot pally in my guild, I've tanked every single successful run we've had.

After 15 or so runs, I still enjoy them to a degree, but the groups are getting progressively more "B team" as our top raiders get their mount and lose interest in helping others get their mount. I'm sure the inevitable failed run is going to happen due to new people not knowing the instance, and I'm certain it's going to piss me off. :p

It should piss you off, having had something on farm for 15 or so runs and than failing is a very valid reason to be pissed off. If you dont know the instance you shouldnt be in ZA bear runs,

chain pulling until you have the bear mount is the way to go. And the time a run failed i would probably hesitate to do it again if the rewards turns out to be failed runs since by that point you dont need any of the drops in there.

Mambak
07-14-2008, 03:29 PM
I was our guilds fury warrior for about 5-6 months until we had a slight tank shortage and i would fill in occasionally, but even as i was fury i found myself tanking heroics/kara because our more geared tanks would refuse or just ignore any sign up. So when summer came i had decided i would take the leap and become one of my guilds tanks, and the more and more i tank the more burned out/bored i feel.

What im trying to come to here, is should I become one of our older tanks and just show up for big raids, or Should i just ask for my old spot as dps?

We are a small guild, 3 raids a week, 3 hours a night.

CyCy
07-14-2008, 03:51 PM
Just be more selective. If it's someone you like and helped you in the past then I say tank for them. Other then that, do what makes you happy you pay $15 a month to play wow and dedicated months of actual online play to get to your current status.

SO DO WHAT MAKES YOU HAPPY NOT WHAT OTHER PEOPLE TELL YOU DO! Guild jumping isn't anything I suggest but find the right group dynamic that will make you happy.

Mambak
07-14-2008, 04:09 PM
Yea, i love my guild and it would be hard to ever leave. Despite that, the tank burnout feeling is hitting hard.

Krashtork
07-15-2008, 01:35 PM
If people NEED you for 5 man content then they are lazy. When people ask me to do them a favor and tank for em, or they are my buddies and just wanna kill some time and hangout, sure, i'll probably do it. But no one should NEED jack in a 5 man. PvP gear > Heroic gear for most classes other than tanks, who probably don't need the 5 man gear either cause they've probably tanked more 5 mans then they care to count or have better gear. The exception to this is Heroic MgT. That place actually has some nice loot.

If someone is so undergeared that they need to go to 5 mans before they can raid Kara to replace 5 man gear, they probably don't belong in a guild that does 25 man raids anyhow.

If someone asks you to tank because they NEED something from a 5 man, ask them what they "NEED" and then direct them to the battlegrounds to go get something that's probably just as good if not better.

Deletha
07-16-2008, 08:36 AM
I can see ZA bear runs being the next burn out for me. As the only prot pally in my guild, I've tanked every single successful run we've had.

After 15 or so runs, I still enjoy them to a degree, but the groups are getting progressively more "B team" as our top raiders get their mount and lose interest in helping others get their mount. I'm sure the inevitable failed run is going to happen due to new people not knowing the instance, and I'm certain it's going to piss me off. :p

So with you here. Despite my love of tanking, I'm stuck healing the raid I lead.. because .. we need it :p And I've tanked or healed at least 2 ZA's a week since the patch that brought it out.

As to the tanks only logging in for that content, it's a game. Give them incentive to enjoy it, or don't expect them to come along. I do agree with helping others, and I do a lot.. you can imagine I've been done with ZA gear for a long long long time. In fact, replaced some of it on farm nights to keep my prot warrior viable. But the people I tank it for will help me if I need something .. I hope.. and being reliable and knowing the favor will be returned is my incentive.

Daavos
07-17-2008, 02:27 PM
In our guild we have 5-8 geared tanks who can tank well yet will not run heroics/kz/za if their life depended on it and would rather spend time doing other stuff in game (aka circling shatt). And only show up for ssc/tk/gruuls etc

This doesnt help some of our lesser geared dps/heals get BOJ gear and speed our progression up somewhat.

We have put in guild note for tanks to "offer" to run dps/heals 1-2 heroics a day (ie the easy ones sp/mech etc) which take around an hour of their time.

Well this hasnt really changed their veiws.

Any suggestions?

Chuck you Farley.

I had to pug my gear with craptastic dps'er and there newly crafted purple gear of I'm-a-tailor-give-me-my-purps while I was out farming dungeon blue gear, mixed with my green champion gear.
I did every goddamn quest chain to get the best tanking BLUE gear item available.
I farmed Mushroom people rep! And the actually MUSHROOMS! - to get the Spore shield.
I spent hours in LFM for Elite 5 quests that dps'ers NEVER want to do get rep and tanking gear.
I graciously bowed out of kara runs for more geared guild tanks.
I sat outside of kara for the opptunity to do the chess event, without spaming guild chat, in case one of the dps would be so kind to drop group, so I get a chance to roll on KD or the battlescar boots.
I took up the cost of respec'ing every week to do and learn arena, because SOME OF THE BEST TANKING GEAR IS IN ARENA, (outside of a raid)
I got ganked non-stop while in proc spec farming engineering BOP recipes so I could move my engineer up 5 points closer so I make the goggles, tank gun, the goblin rocket launcher.

I pugged BM for 2 weeks BM?!!! I hate BM. To get my last key frag to kara with frost mages, stun lock rogues and improve rend MS warriors and other cast offs from non-raiding guilds because I had to get it done.
I farmed Revered rep to get Heroic Keys.
I got trapped in "Kara/Gruul Guilds" who couldn't progress past it.

And now you want to send back and help some Night Elf hunter.... your brother's Warlock... your buddy's shadow step alt rogue... in their PVP purples, who soloed their way up to 70, who have never been group, who can't be bother to do attunement for kara because they can spam "open door" now? So they can sit back and spam 2 buttons, and pst me to "hurry up" while marking, while I (and the healer) do all the work?

Are you nuts?

Unger
07-18-2008, 11:52 AM
If your guild is like ours, there is a constant flux of players getting in and dropping out for various reasons (RL issues, girlfriend stuff, work schedules, etc.). The guild I am in has completed everything but Sunwell so there may be 4-5 other guilds at our level or better on the server. Having said that, even we rotate players in and out of the starting lineup.

At the SSC/TK level, you dont need great tanks..... you need well geared tanks. Once you get to BT and Sunwell, its not enough to just be geared....., you have to be good. Based on that, it is more important to find great PLAYERS who want to tank, understand theory/gameplay and need to build their tanks. If you subscribe to this theory, then you have to be developing players and characters all the time.

Our guild has a philosophy that all members should contribute something towards the enrichment of the guild. For the T6 players, that often takes the role of gearing other guildies. For lower geared players, they often do a lot of the grunt work in the guild such as farming primals for resist gear (remember when we were building our Hydross gear fellas?), consumables, etc. Our guild pays for repairs for all T6 tanks so they can focus on helping the guild..... and it helps a lot. The tanks feel appreciated.... and they respond in kind.

I personally have a prot warrior and a holy priest so grinding for me can be a bit of a pain. Instead, I make myself available to the guild to tank or heal any instances they need to further their cause. I know that when you are clearing BT, doing a SLABS run doesnt seem that exciting, but the other way to look at it is that it takes a different set of skills/gear to run 5-10 mans as oppose to 25 mans. As a tank, you want to stay sharp, build a 2nd set of gear (like a DPS set) and collect badges for the random times when badge gear is better than the drops you have amassed thus far.

Yeah, its a game..... but cmon. Are we too busy doing "important" things to remember what it was like to need a group to get keyed for Kara? Or how many of us can remember farming Caverns of Time to get the rep legs for tanking? If youre tanking in BT, youre probably pretty good..... maybe a Kara group with a new tank to show him (or her) the ropes could help a lot. Leave the dailies and the grinding to others and serve your guilds. Its what we all do best.....

Dont kill yourself running 15 heroics a day.... but 4-5 5-mans or 1 10-man a week won't kill anyone. Hell, tank it at 490 def and a ton of hit/AP gear on..... see if you can out DPS the newbs.

One tanks thoughts.....

Bubalus
07-21-2008, 02:56 AM
Yeah, its a game..... but cmon. Are we too busy doing "important" things to remember what it was like to need a group to get keyed for Kara? Or how many of us can remember farming Caverns of Time to get the rep legs for tanking? If youre tanking in BT, youre probably pretty good..... maybe a Kara group with a new tank to show him (or her) the ropes could help a lot. Leave the dailies and the grinding to others and serve your guilds. Its what we all do best.....

Dont kill yourself running 15 heroics a day.... but 4-5 5-mans or 1 10-man a week won't kill anyone. Hell, tank it at 490 def and a ton of hit/AP gear on..... see if you can out DPS the newbs.

One tanks thoughts.....
i do remember and i pugged it, grinded , did most 'solo'.
i'm in a raiding guild, we have gear standards as well as reputation , no offence but anybody needing anything from 5mans part from badges is not in their place in our guild , sure that goes for a lot of tanks guilds in this threath. So basicly if that's the case they are being caried or they are alts , not my job to gear those tbh.

And i also do remember hydross , all the tanks also worked their ass off for the primals , not just the 'lesser gods' so to speak.
So , if they want badges (or gear/rep for their alts) , start pugging or go kara, no need for me to spend (inclined to say waste tbh) my time there.

Dunmail
07-21-2008, 08:49 AM
Chuck you Farley.

I had to pug my gear with craptastic dps'er and there newly crafted purple gear of I'm-a-tailor-give-me-my-purps while I was out farming dungeon blue gear, mixed with my green champion gear.
I did every goddamn quest chain to get the best tanking BLUE gear item available.
I farmed Mushroom people rep! And the actually MUSHROOMS! - to get the Spore shield.
I spent hours in LFM for Elite 5 quests that dps'ers NEVER want to do get rep and tanking gear.
I graciously bowed out of kara runs for more geared guild tanks.
I sat outside of kara for the opptunity to do the chess event, without spaming guild chat, in case one of the dps would be so kind to drop group, so I get a chance to roll on KD or the battlescar boots.
I took up the cost of respec'ing every week to do and learn arena, because SOME OF THE BEST TANKING GEAR IS IN ARENA, (outside of a raid)
I got ganked non-stop while in proc spec farming engineering BOP recipes so I could move my engineer up 5 points closer so I make the goggles, tank gun, the goblin rocket launcher.

I pugged BM for 2 weeks BM?!!! I hate BM. To get my last key frag to kara with frost mages, stun lock rogues and improve rend MS warriors and other cast offs from non-raiding guilds because I had to get it done.
I farmed Revered rep to get Heroic Keys.
I got trapped in "Kara/Gruul Guilds" who couldn't progress past it.

And now you want to send back and help some Night Elf hunter.... your brother's Warlock... your buddy's shadow step alt rogue... in their PVP purples, who soloed their way up to 70, who have never been group, who can't be bother to do attunement for kara because they can spam "open door" now? So they can sit back and spam 2 buttons, and pst me to "hurry up" while marking, while I (and the healer) do all the work?

Are you nuts?

That is precisely why there's 13 pages of radiating anger, off people having been there & done it. Long but...

Unger
07-21-2008, 04:48 PM
There is no denying that getting where we are now was hard. Probably a lot harder than it is for the people coming up now, whether its due to a guild that helps out, Blizzard nerfing the crap out of events or the 8 million pages of internet data that is out there to shortcut people. I hear what all of you are saying.... and I am not suggesting that you allow people to take advantage of you. You're in control...., you decide who you help and who you don't help. One thing you rarely had to do in 5 mans was pug a tank..... because YOU were the tank.

As tough as it is to get healers, PUGing tanks is downright scary. For every tank that is in BT downing Illidan, there are 1,000 guys out there that think they can tank two handed or don't even understand the mechanics of their class.

All I am saying is that there is another side to 5 mans. There has got to be some place in your hearts where you fell in love with tanking. Where taking the lives of your group in your hands on a pull by pull basis was thrilling....

Maybe the answer is to set up some rules..... here's what we will do.... here's what we won't do. The previous poster said he did most of it solo.... I dont know about that. Most of the pre-Kara gear required instances, group quests or rep (that required a lot of instances). Ok, so some of us did it the hard way.... we walked to school.... up hill.... both ways.... in the snow.... without shoes.

To address the original posters question.... help the tanks help you. Pay their repair bills... have the noobies grind and donate primals or whatever you need.... Let the tanks pay their debt to the guild in group quests, instances (of whatever makeup) or whatever you need. Let the tanks build fury sets when things drop that nobody needs for main spec.... and be respectful. Tanks are defenders. We make sure that nobody gets hurt (or at least not a lot!) while we are escorting the team through an event. Its the most noble and least rewarding role. If the mount from Kael drops..... give it to the tank.... same with Attumen.

Good luck with your tanks. Hopefully, they don't feel as taken advantaged as a lot of the guys in this forum!

Krashtork
07-22-2008, 10:12 AM
Tanks are not that hard to PuG. My main used to be a mage, and only every so often would i have issues with tank pugging. It's all about knowing the right people and being nice to them.

Hell, if i was having that much trouble i'd pay for em to come help. If you really do NEED an istance SOooo bad, you should have no trouble laying down 50g for a good tank. :P

Joacimcans
08-20-2008, 12:53 AM
Sorry if this is considered a dead thread but i just recently joined and i would like to offer my side to this topic. My main is a horde Protection Paladin in a 5/5 and 9/9 Guild. I have tanked every 5 man on both normal and heroic probably enough to be exalted with every faction by about 3 times over. While on a paladin 5 mans are pretty mindnumbing when you out gear them just a bit more downtime due to having to drink after 2 pulls because you literally tanked the entire pull without need a a single heal, it wasnt that bad. I did eventually tire of it tho so i did the unthinkable..............I rolled a protection warrior, and OMG i honestly swear people are getting dumber and dumber that are beinging to play this game while i solo leveled up until 60, at 60 i specced protection and started running instances thinking ohh hey this wont be too bad and I was rudely awakened while i was by no means the perfect prot warrior when i started but i was decent enough that i could tank instances with little or no CC needed but I think most people here would be shocked at how bad the player base is pre 70. I could always see if someone was an alt or a reroll because my omen would actually show someone other than me and 90% of those people were really good at their class so leveling 60-70 was filled with alot of bad pugged instances but i stuck through it knowing that some of the people were just really new and didnt honestly know any better.

At 70 however I learned that all of the tanking i did on my paladin while it made me look like a great and NICE guy it didn't entitle me to anything. By this i mean all of the people's mains and alts that i had helped gear up suddenly had NO desire to help me gear up MY ALT so i ended up having to pug even more groups to get my reputations and get the badges i needed to get good tanking gear on my alt. The only good thing that has come from doing so many pugs and getting exalted in every faction on two tanks is i now have a friends list full of people who actually enjoy healing/dpsing that i met through pugs, and i have found out that people like to do things that help themselves and if you need something you can just go pug it.

So fair warning to all of you people that posted you tank every instance for anyone who wants to go. I have lived that life and you have to realise that tanking is basically a one way street after the people get what they want they will throw you to the side and go pvp or circle shatt even if you still need something you will have to hassel them to no end to get what you need or you might even have to just find a whole new person for the group. An example of this was when i MGT first came out I tanked heroic MGT almost every single day trying to get my commendation and i noticed a really not subtle pattern whenever a dps/healer got thier trinket off the 3rd boss all of the sudden the next day they didnt feel like it or they were busy or they were tired and need to go to bed.

LittleMan
08-27-2008, 03:20 AM
Here's my take on the issue.

Having hopped from one dead end guild to another I have spent tons of time giving of my time to guildmates across several guilds.
I have farmed pot/flask/elixir mats and sold them for 50% of lowest Ah price.. I have done the same with food buff mats. I have given away pots, elixirs, flasks and food before raids. I have tanked heroics and kara badge runs for people when they were nearing a certain badge item or needed a purple gem. I have maintained 100% attendance record with most of them. I have offered advice, opinions when asked for them, friendship and respect for my fellow guildmates, many whom moved on after only a short period of time after recieving gear or having a negative raiding experience. I have taken a verbal ass kicking over mistakes and miscommunication but rarely even went as far as scolding fellow raid members for playing wrecklessly and making my job harder.

What have I got back? Out of all the guilds I have been in since 70 I have contact with less then a handful of people. Why? Because as someone described in an earlier post, I was the hero when I was in the guild but when I left I was suddenly the most unloyal traitor they had ever seen. Rumors spread about me as to why I left that were completely false.

That part is the one thing that stings me most. The lack of appreciation. being used, having my kindness taken advantage of, and then to top it off by lableing me unloyal after I slaved for guildmates while neglecting my own "chores". After showing up day in and day out for wipe fests on progressive boss fights while other tanks convienantly chose not to log in on progressive boss night.. Unloyal? yeah it still stings alot I guess.

On the flip side I have gained some from it too. I have got thick skinned and I am slowly but surely learning to say no. After all how bad does it look when they come to raid with all their consumables but I'm missing a particular item I need for a certain fight all because I neglected my own farming to help a few other people out? Bad bad bad..Makes me look like shit and feel even worse then I look.

I don't mind helping guildmates and friends out and I'll always place guildmates before friends unless it's something that doesnt help/improve their raiding performance.

It's just got to the point where in most cases it is more of a job.
I'll break my back to help someone be more sucessful and all I ask in return is a little appreciation and respect.. And not the kind that is suddenly thrown out the window when I explain why I just gquit and unwilling to accept the reinvite, or can't tank this or that, or wont have their mana pot mats farmed in time for the next raid.

And while I'm tanking these heroics for you try to make things a little easier for me too if you can.. Wait for me to pull don't just pull a leroy and expect me to rush in and try to save you because its amusing. Or run around trying to solo mobs because you obviously out gear the instance, only to end up dead leaving your mob to chase down the healer and one shot them...and me feeling sick at my stomach over the event.

It's not the 5 man burn out that I'm suffering most from, it's the lack of appreciation, being taken for granted and being used that has put a damper on my desire to be as helpful as I have been in the past.


If you want your guild tanks to give more to the guild then the guild needs to give more to them.
I'm not saying put them on a sallary or anything, but little respect, praise, appreciation and understanding can go a long ways.

The statement you made about the guildnote that was asking that tanks do a couple heroics a day with guildies seemed more of a demand.
I personally would find it insulting and would likely log right back out.

orcstar
08-27-2008, 03:54 AM
Littleman, if I read your post, you'ved gone above and beyond what's to be reasonably expected.

Sometimes when a new guy entered our guild he would farm like mad, hand out tons of elixirs and potions to other guildies. I was always quick to stop that.

If people want to raid they should make their best effort, providing their own pots foods elixirs. Because in the end, if you give it to them, more then recognition you create lazy players who take the things for granted.

Juon
08-28-2008, 10:27 PM
To steer the argument away from being one sided :

I believe for some of us, it is the quality of the 5 man.

After a raid, tanks are often the most exhausted. I have played HPriest/SPriest/Hunter/RestoShaman/DPSShaman and playing a war tank really drains.

I really cannot stress this enough.

However, if the usual gang I know and trust ask me to tank for anything,at anytime (provided I do not pull wife aggro) I would most heartily. That is because I know that they wil be focused for the next 30-50 minutes it take for the heroic.

Alas, this is not so for most guildies and PUGs.Without a wipe, I can keep my concentration up for hours. Once a stupid wipe sets in, the entirety of the raid weariness, day of work at the office, frustration against stupidity all sets in at once like a tsunami during the run back from GY. A H UB can take 30 mins to 2hours.

I am pretty sure we will all still run Heroics and Kara, but only with people we know who can keep their eyes on the screen. I am not implying that the grp must be leet skillz, I dont mind bringing alts in greens. But it is the level of focus and dedication. It is really, really immensely frustrating to be the only one focused and carrying the 5man when it is THEY who needs the run in the first place. Babysit AND feed? We signed up to serve and rock the world.

Not babysitting ingrates who dont appreciate the fact that we are putting hefty repair bills and time better spent for farming consumables to help them gear up. Too many guildies and pugs feel that once you are the group leader, it is a choo-choo loot train where they can sit back and relax.

An enthusiastic newcomer decked in greens with the right dedication and focus will no doubt move ANY of the tanks here on this forums to help him.

Healers and dps normally do not feel the exhaustion as much as tanks, therefore more inclined to form pugs/grps without much thought. Once I was in a H SH grp with 2 warlocks and 1 rouge.... very intense multimob as the warlocks start bursting their SoC the moment they hear the khorium destroyer fire a shot....and finally we wiped when they decided the best way to run the gaunlet is by SoCing the newest wave before they reach the tank and ignoring the ones the tank already have aggro on .....

2 cents.

LittleMan
08-31-2008, 10:43 PM
Littleman, if I read your post, you'ved gone above and beyond what's to be reasonably expected.

Sometimes when a new guy entered our guild he would farm like mad, hand out tons of elixirs and potions to other guildies. I was always quick to stop that.

If people want to raid they should make their best effort, providing their own pots foods elixirs. Because in the end, if you give it to them, more then recognition you create lazy players who take the things for granted.

I agree completely that it can create lazy players. I can see both sides of the argument.

I guess I kinda see it as most of the people I play with dont have near the amount of game time I have due to real life responsibilites. I on the other hand am confined to bed for the most part so all I have is time. I feel That if I can help out guidlies who have very limited time then it may go a long ways to preventing them showing up without proper consumables and maybe even eventually leaving due to just not having the time to put into it. Thus being helpful to my guild as a whole. Does that make sense?

Now I know I can only carry so much weight in an attempt to help my guildies before it starts wearing me down. That has been my biggest problem. During times I am physical worn out I find it hard to say "you know what I just can't do it for ya this week I'm really worn out" without feeling bad about it.

I don't do that stuff nearly as much these days but will help guildies who are in a pinch when asked. I will still farm mats and sell them to them for 50% of what its going for on ah. I have found that it has helped deter the people who were taking advantage of my kindness.. And usually the lazy people don't have the gold to cover repairs much less mats.

I accept I can only do so much for people whether they make the effort to help themselves or not.

I guess theres a fine line between helping people out and enabling them. Makes it really hard to know who to help and who not to or whether I should help anyone at all. Either way I generally still give people the benefit of the doubt and try to be helpful in every way I can, until given a reason not to.

Jasra
09-02-2008, 10:33 PM
I guess theres a fine line between helping people out and enabling them. Makes it really hard to know who to help and who not to or whether I should help anyone at all. Either way I generally still give people the benefit of the doubt and try to be helpful in every way I can, until given a reason not to.

I'm glad you see that - it's not just a fine line, but it's a very fuzzy one too. It's important to remember that most (if not all) of your guildies will put their interests first. That doesn't work as well for a tank, but if you sacrifice too much of yourself along the way, sooner or later you'll get reminded that people mostly play for their own benefit. Bitter disappointment will follow.

Treat your guild with tremendous respect and courtesy, but don't let your volunteerism ever get far away from your personal fun.

Oneiroi
09-22-2008, 03:13 AM
And while I'm tanking these heroics for you try to make things a little easier for me too if you can.. Wait for me to pull don't just pull a leroy and expect me to rush in and try to save you because its amusing. Or run around trying to solo mobs because you obviously out gear the instance, only to end up dead leaving your mob to chase down the healer and one shot them...and me feeling sick at my stomach over the event.
Like the Shaman i had which told me to be quiet after i told him to watch his omen. He went like shut up nothing happend i can solo that mob.
Such things make Puging a Pain in the Ass :cool:

kolben
09-26-2008, 01:49 PM
People are the main factor for me, and they determine whether I'll want to tank for them again through their actions. There are several people in my guild I won't tank groups for, they make simple things hard and are quitters; two out of three for my criteria to turn down requests for my tanking services. Players have to own up to the fact that they created the problem by being asshats of one flavor or another. Four tanking classes won't fix that.

Stephanius
10-31-2008, 10:28 AM
I have a cunning plan that solves the problem discussed in this thread in a neat way: Make a tank alt!

With four tank classes, there is some choice. I already have 2 tank alts and will make a DK when I get around to it. That gives considerable choice between characters at the appropriate level for whatever is on the menu.

When someone then tries to draft your raid geared tank into 5-man 101 you wont be unwilling to go, you just want to go on a char that is appropriate! That may be a nasty shock to people who do want to get carried, but should not at all pertube those that want to do their part, but are a tank short. :D

Krashtork
11-01-2008, 03:05 AM
Sounds like a good idea, but it's the levels 1-70 that make this something I probably wont do.

Saturday
11-01-2008, 09:17 AM
I have a prot paladin, two prot warriors and another prot warrior on the way (along with a DK probably).

It isn't a solution. You end up having to do the same heroics, end up wanting and constantly not getting the same drops while constantly wondering why other people can't level their own damn tank and healing alts.

The only reason I have gone through the warriors I have is that I get a real thrill from the levelling of them and going through the lower-level instances where the gear really means jacksquat in the overall scheme of things. Most of the people you group with do it for the quests or because they really like the instances which is a nice change from the level 70 "Do whatever grants the most charity badges or gear".

A few members of my guild recently left because myself and the main healer both brought up this issue of people wanting hand-me-downs without working for them. People wanting to attend ZA at 68, people wanting to do Kara in full greens that weren't even suited for their role. Neither of us has had the luxury of playing an alt in a raid, even ZA and Kara, and despite a fairly rational argument against it, people are quick to think these things are "owed" to them for whatever godknown reason and throw a tantrum when they don't get it.

Petninja
11-07-2008, 07:49 PM
The OP and anyone here who agrees with him are just idiot mooches that shouldn't be in guilds in the first place.


While I may not agree with the OP of the thread, Tankspot is not the place for comments like this. I left the Elitist Jerks forums because a lot of them were just that... Elitist Jerks. Inflammatory comments of this nature do not improve a forum in any way.

Personally I try to help people out with their instances if I can. Sometimes I'm not up to it. If I'm not feeling like it I'd sooner log off than have people grumbling that I'd rather PvP or play an alt than help my guild. My last guild has an age requirement and a no drama policy, and it did a lot to alleviate the problem.

PS: I'm pretty sure I just posted on a dead thread. Is that like grave robbing?

macfeagle
01-10-2009, 02:27 AM
I just read the base post and enraged a bit.

Good tanks are the point of the spear with regard to raid progression, but this doesn't mean they need to be permanent engineer of the alt/recruit/casual gravy train. Responsibility for gearing rests with the individual. The reason the tank doesn't want to do heroics is that the tank already did all the heroics, repeatedly, starting day one, and now has all the gear from them and still has a couple hundred badges left over.

Haps
01-11-2009, 08:09 AM
Yeah this issue seems to be cropping up again.

I have no interest in running heroics to gear out all the people that were slow levelers. Or people now finishing up leveling their alts.

I have no interest in running heroics because you want to get achievements because frankly I could care less about achievements.

I have no interest in running heroics because you are farming rep to be exalted in all factions just for the sake of being exalted.

CyCy
01-13-2009, 06:01 AM
My big question to people who complain about this is ........Where the hell were you when the tank was running heroics non stop for badge gear to be able to MT a 25 man raid.

Maybe it's just me but when I dinged 80 and only had 18k unbuffed health and was sitting at 2 points under def cap for heroics. I had to pug every friggin thing I could to start gearing.
Now to be expected to run an instance that offers no drop I need or worthless rep for an alt or rep plz don't ask.

Im still gearing and I usually have to pug at least 2 people in I ask for interest in a run in general guild chat and what really burns my ass is getting whisper harassed myself for not doing a "guild run" in an instance that does me no good.

macfeagle
01-19-2009, 01:04 PM
My big question to people who complain about this is ........Where the hell were you when the tank was running heroics non stop for badge gear to be able to MT a 25 man raid.

Maybe it's just me but when I dinged 80 and only had 18k unbuffed health and was sitting at 2 points under def cap for heroics. I had to pug every friggin thing I could to start gearing.
Now to be expected to run an instance that offers no drop I need or worthless rep for an alt or rep plz don't ask.
This is not necessarily class-specific. When I was running heroics non-stop while wearing crafted blue and purple gear and being not quite crit immune, I had a few people going with me, and nobody would expect them to run this stuff either. I just say "no thanks" when people ask me, and people leave me alone. If anyone gives me a hard time they are obviously insane.

The tank and the healer take the brunt of everyone's garbage. It used to be worse, with Kara attunement. That was completely hideous. People get in a guild and immediately demand the attention of the guild, and there is much talk of loyalty to the guild and so on, but they'll leave for any number of reasons and all that time invested is simply wasted.

My attitude now is, if you want to raid, show up ready to raid or I have no interest in you. I geared up with in pugs and with friends, you do that too, and I'm not your friend simply because I'm the tank and you're ostensibly in my raid. If I knew that if I spent time gearing new people that they'd turn out to be intelligent raiders who attend raids and don't wander off after a few weeks I'd consider investing the time in them, but there are just too many things that can go wrong to make spending time on new people worth it.

Jonamar
01-29-2009, 07:50 AM
(aka circling shatt).


I so miss this!!! Just not the same circling Dal on my Bear :(