View Full Version : Armor penetration and haste vs crit and AP

06-27-2008, 05:21 PM
Hey there.

currently my guild is progressing through SSC and TK and as a fury war that means items based on AP and crit, but along side these items i can get items from ZA and badges that relies more on Haste and armor pen.

And here is my question, i have a really hard time chosing between these items, both between AP/crit vs haste/armor pen and haste vs armor pen, as i dont really know how the different stats equal each other out.

Examples without gemming:

Shoulderplates of Everlasting Pain - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=34601) 30str/21 haste(yellow+blue)
vs Pauldrons of the Wardancer - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=30053) 38str/29crit (red+blue)
vs Pauldrons of Gruesome Fate - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=33514) 42 str/23hit/154 armor pen (none)
vs Swiftsteel Shoulders - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=32570) 47str/19hit/35haste (none)


Girdle of Seething Rage - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=34944) 40str/30 haste (blue)
vs Chain of Unleashed Rage - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=33331) 34str/14 hit/154 armor pen (red+blue)
vs Bladeangel's Money Belt - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=33211) 25agi/21 crit/58AP/77 armor pen (blue)

These are just examples, and what i am really looking for is some general guide lines to follow.

Currently my stats UB in zerker is:
AP: 1950
Crit: 25%
Hit: 152
Haste: 44
Armor pen: 315 + executioner

Thanks in advance !

regards vonholck

06-28-2008, 08:14 AM
Your crit being at 25% I think you should go bladedancer shoulders and bladeangel's moneybelt...even fury warriors who advocate lower crit in favor of other stats say the lower crit should be 27-28% range. I think at 25 you are gimping your flurry charges and your dps. And before anyone else after me says it why haven't you made a red belt of battle yet? Gear choices aside I do not think there has ever been an argument that it is the best dps belt till T6.

06-30-2008, 11:59 AM
25% crit means that 23.7% of the time, your flurry is going to drop off without being refreshed.

27.5% crit means that 20% of the time, your flurry is going to drop off without being refreshed. Adding 2.5% crit increases your flurry up-time by 4.8%

30% crit means that 16.8% of the time, your flurry drops. Adding 2.5% crit here increases your flurry up-time by 4%

As you add crit, the increase to your flurry uptime decreases more and more until your flurry is practically always up. At only 25% crit, though, it's a considerable difference than at 27.5%.

Looking at the data this way, I'd say that 25% is too low for crit, and I'd shoot for a minimum of 27.5% (unbuffed in zerker) when you're stacking armor pen and haste.

One other thing to consider: 315 armor pen is pretty low and doesn't help you out nearly as much at this point. I wouldn't consider switching from crit to arp until I could get my ArP to the 700+ range (as armor penetration gets better the more you stack it).

Because you asked about "guidelines to follow", the best one I can give you is: str/ap > crit > armor pen > hit & haste. Try to get pieces that have 3 or more of these stats.

Assuming that items are similar in ilvl, the distribution of items is ranked like this:
1. str+crit+armor pen+(hit or haste)
2. str+crit+hit+haste
3. str+armor pen+hit+haste
4. str+crit+armor pen
5. str+crit+hit
6. str+armor pen+(hit or haste)
7. crit+armor pen+(hit or haste)
8. crit+hit+haste
9. armor pen+hit+haste

06-30-2008, 03:27 PM
Just for clarification STR is better than Attack power so it would be

STR > AP > Crit> armor pen > haste > Hit (if your over 9%)

if you break it down finer. Str is affected by Kings, Ap is not. I know i have kings & Salv on most of my raids sometimes kings,might & salv.

Just noting it as the above post does not reflect AttackPower only Strength so i think it was worth mentioning that its slightly worse than STR but probably still better than crit at 28% unbuffed.

06-30-2008, 03:35 PM
Yes, Str is better than AP, but you likely don't have both Str and AP on the same item, so I wasn't including a distinction. If you have two items that are otherwise identical, but one has str and one has AP, then you should choose the Str, but that rarely if ever happens.

The only time this distinction is practical is when considering enchanting and gemming.
10str= 22ap with kings, or 24ap if you're DPSing as prot (with kings).
8str = 17.6ap with kings, or 19.2ap if you're DPSing as prot (with kings).
6str = 13.2ap with kings, or 14.4ap if you're DPSing as prot (with kings).
So, 24ap >= 10str > 20ap > 8str > 16ap > 6str > 12ap for your gems and enchants (24ap is better than 10str unless you're prot, whereas they're equal).

06-30-2008, 04:07 PM
This is straight from Elitistjerks:

<9% hit and <6.25% Dodge reduction
Expertise/Hit > Crit/AP/Armor Pen > Haste

>9% hit and <6.25% Dodge reduction
Expertise > Crit/AP/Armor Pen > Haste/Hit

>9% hit and >6.25% Dodge reduction
Crit/Ap/Armor Pen > Haste/Hit (Expertise yields no dps increase past the cap)

Unfortunately when Blizzard puts in new badge gear, it's a "flavor of the month" sort of thing. Last patch it was armor penetration; this patch it is haste. The benefit is not to overdo all of one thing, it is to have better itemization options.

Maxdps.com has a nice listing of items (with certain faults granted) based on dps. With that being said, notice that the pauldrons of the wardancer are are listed high for both arms and fury. Therefore, I would say take those versus the swiftsteel, which are costly and nowhere close to irreplaceable. I'm sure you will make it into Mt. Hyjal for the shoulders off of Rage fairly easily. Since you are in SSC at the moment. I would not worry about the belt very much. I would shoot for attaining the materials for the Red Belt of Battle. It is a VERY good belt. I'm sure you could probably work something out with the guild leader on vortexes or even use the badges to get them -especially with gold as easy to come by these days.

07-09-2008, 12:54 AM
Red Belt of Battle and Pauldrons of the Wardancer. RBoB lasts near forever, and PotW are simply the better option of the ones you listed.

ArP is good to have, but atm you need to beef up your crit a bit more. Aim for 28% at the very least in zerk stance to ensure more flurry uptime. All in all, the stats you quoted are the same as mine minus 5% crit, so once you bring that up some more (drop the haste) you should be just fine.

As for a general guide, the easiest way to put it (in order of importance): 9% hit, ~30% crit, everything else in AP (str) and ArP.