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Ukk
06-26-2008, 08:28 AM
Well my first time on Prince he was nice enough to drop my t4 helm, and also Malchazeen, which somehow came to me. So now I find myself with some choices for my DW prot daily grinding/dps role when offtanking. I now have the following:

Blazefury with Executioner
The Sun Eater with Mongoose
Malchazeen with nothing yet
Vindicator's Brand with nothing yet

I understand that Executioner should be my main hand chant, and mongoose my offhand chant. I also believe that stats are more important than dps for my offhand. Finally, I have more than enough hit rating (around 176) so the higher AP of Malch is more attractive than the higher hit of VB.

My main questions are:

1. Can I go ahead and put mongoose on Malch as my best OH choice and keep Blazefury as my MH?

2. For my MH is the dps advantage of Blazefury enough to offset the increased devastate damage and attack power bonus that I would get from Vindicator's Brand? I know there is a post on devastate damage but I am a mathtard and am not really sure how to compare these. (Assuming in the comparison that I would get Executioner for the VB.)

3. Or am I totally clueless and should I be equipping Malchazeen and Vindicator's Brand once I have them both enchanted??

Thanks in advance for your advice!

edit - these are my only wep choices, all badges are going toward tank gear.

Tatt
06-26-2008, 09:40 AM
Tough choice, but I think I would go vindicator's MH and Blazefury OH, slow/fast is still better than fast/fast. I would probably put 20 strength on the vindicator's for the extra AP, and cheaper than mongoose. Next time you go to kara try to grab up fool's bane so you can go slow/slow.

Ukk
06-26-2008, 07:55 PM
I know you are right that slow MH is better than fast MH if the dps is about equal; and I quote Armstrong's Devastate FAQ:

If you own a slow weapon with a base DPS comparable to your fast tanking weapon, and ideally with damage-increasing stats, use it for higher Devastate damage in situations where you don't generate enough rage to spam Heroic Strike.
My uncertainty arises from the 16.3 dps difference between the BF and VB - this may not be "comparable" as contemplated in that quote. Are you confident that the increased dev damage of the VB would overcome that dps disadvantage? Obviously at some point the dps difference would be great enough to justify using the faster, higher dps wep. I just don't know what that point is.

Archfiend
06-26-2008, 09:56 PM
Devastate is a huge source of damage for DW prot, but the high dps on Blazefury ought to beat out the bigger devastates on the Vindicator's Brand. More importantly, neither one is perfectly suited to the task, so I wouldn't drop ~500 gold on a costly enchant. My opinion is use Blazefury for now. You've already made a big investment crafting the sword and getting it enchanted, and with the quick speed, you'll also be able to hit more heroic strikes, which is another huge source of DW prot dps. What you ultimately want to aim for is something along the lines of Fool's Bane (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=28657), Spiteblade (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=28729), or The Decapitator (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=28767), to give some Kara-ready examples, which mix high dps, good stats, and a slow speed. Once you pick up one of these, get it enchanted and have fun.

Crimsonstorm
06-27-2008, 01:54 PM
Get the badge offhand, its only 45, and mongoose it.

Switch to hammersmith and craft a Dargonstrike for your MH.

loquatious
07-02-2008, 11:16 AM
I would suggest Potency for any off hand weapon. STR is awesome and as prot we get a 10% bonus.

Also, its cheaper :)

Manan
07-03-2008, 11:31 AM
Daggers are gimped when it comes to normalized attacks (http://www.wowwiki.com/Normalize) like Devastate.

Currently, the normalized weapon damage for instant attacks is:
normalized_damage = base_weapon_damage + (X * Attack Power / 14) where X is:


1.7 for daggers
2.4 for other one-handed weapons
3.3 for two-handed weapons
2.8 for ranged weapons
weapon speed (http://www.wowwiki.com/Weapon_speed) for non-normalized attacks (see below)

From the Devastate wiki (http://www.wowwiki.com/Devastate):

This is a normalized (http://www.wowwiki.com/Normalize) attack, so weapon attack speed (http://www.wowwiki.com/Attack_speed) does not matter when calculating bonus damage in terms of attack power (http://www.wowwiki.com/Attack_power). Normalization means, all other things being equal, this will cause less bonus damage when used with a dagger (http://www.wowwiki.com/Dagger), regardless of weapon speed, and will thus cause less threat.

VB and Blazefury should be the way to go. Play with swapping them and see which one does more DPS as your main hand.

Ukk
07-03-2008, 12:31 PM
Well, an OH wep does not factor into devastate, only main hand. And it would be a good idea to test, but I am not going to spend the $$ to chant VB just to test them out.

Badges going for tanking gear atm, but when I have filled out my tank badge gear I will look into the fists.

I think the dps is too much to pass up using BF as MH, since so much damage (and thus rage) comes from white attacks.

I like the stats on the dagger as an OH and would like the added AP so will probably put potency on it.

Thanks ~

Tedd
07-09-2008, 10:54 AM
Well, an OH wep does not factor into devastate, only main hand. And it would be a good idea to test, but I am not going to spend the $$ to chant VB just to test them out.

However, you can still devastate with your offhand weapon when disarmed at which time it does matter I believe.


Badges going for tanking gear atm, but when I have filled out my tank badge gear I will look into the fists.

This is the best plan.


I think the dps is too much to pass up using BF as MH, since so much damage (and thus rage) comes from white attacks.

I like the stats on the dagger as an OH and would like the added AP so will probably put potency on it.

Thanks ~

Use the slowest weapon you have, with whatever chant you want to put on it, and the highest DPS offhand. Remember devastate is not like bloodthirst, its a machine gun attack instead of a cannon.

loquatious
07-09-2008, 11:00 AM
Use the slowest weapon you have, with whatever chant you want to put on it, and the highest DPS offhand. Remember devastate is not like bloodthirst, its a machine gun attack instead of a cannon.

I'd strongly recomend executioner on MH if you can afford it, failing that mongoose.

Rather than measure off hands by their DPS measure them by their stat bonuses.

For ex The Decapitator is a crappy off hand weapon despite having decent dps.

Ukk
07-09-2008, 11:05 AM
Well The Decapitator dropped for me a couple days after my last post, so I slapped exec on it, got potency for Malchazeen and have been pleased. Prince has been good for my dps!

I am definitely knocking down mobs a little quicker, although I had to juggle my chest and rings to get my hit rating back up to about 171 (to compensate for losing the hit I had on Blazefury). I find that anything below that and I just don't have enough rage to be effective.

Funny thing was King's Defender dropped for me on the same run and I swear I was more excited about The Decapitator!

I appreciate everyone's responses, always like learning a little more about the class mechanics.

Ukk

Tedd
07-09-2008, 11:06 AM
He doesn't really have a MH that is worth it. Definitely not vindicators brand.

Well there you go.

Kazeyonoma
07-09-2008, 01:22 PM
I really don't think having 171 is helping your dps as much as you think.

Conserve your rage more and drop some hit to get more str to up your overall dps. as prot dps you get big benefits from str with the 5/5 vitality talent. 142 is all you need, 171 although I understand helps you smooth out rage gain, isn't really helping you as much, trust me.

ebs2002
07-09-2008, 01:33 PM
If your AP or weapons are crappier, I can see wanting more hit rating to increase your rage gen as much as possible just to keep up the devastate spam.

But once you hit 90+ dps in main and offhand and 1700+ unbuffed attack power, you don't NEED the extra hit, because your white damage sustains you enough to keep that rotation up PLUS heroic striking (for reference, I wielded The Decapitator (with executioner) and Fury (with potency), and keep my hit just above 141, and I can do 40+% heroic strikes while keeping whirlwind on cooldown). Keep in mind this is with a full epic (pvp, kara-level, and rep rewards) set, and I had the orc racial from the decapitator, but more hit isn't necessary.

Ukk
07-09-2008, 02:03 PM
Wow, thanks for the advice. For the record, my unbuffed melee stats are as follows if I keep my hit at maximum:

AP: 1742
Hit: 171
Crit: 23.71 (in battle stance)

The best I can do if I drop my hit to 142 minimum right now is:

AP: 1776
Hit: 146
Crit: 23.52 (battle)

Basically I swapped out 2 blue rings with hit for 2 other blue rings with more AP and strength - I wasn't gemming for hit! I am interested to check this out, although I am not sure the 34 AP will make much difference. It certainly frees me up to be more flexible as I upgrade, which I am excited about.

ebs2002
07-09-2008, 02:35 PM
Well, your crit is a little low in battle stance, which might explain your desire for more hit rating. Are you exalted with Sha'tar? Grab A'dal's Command for a nice fury ring. Likewise, if you're exalted with Lower City (a bit more difficult, but it's possible!) you could grab that expertise ring which isn't too bad, but I'm not sure if it's better than what you have.

It looks like you swapped out 25hit (25 itemization points) and a few points of crit rating, for 34ap (17 itemization points). I'm not sure what rings you swapped, but it looks like you'd be downgrading; I'd keep those rings the way you had them before with the higher hit rating.

Where else do you have hit rating that you could potentially swap out?

Ukk
07-10-2008, 11:47 AM
I don't really, those rings were the only place I was sacrificing AP for hit - so that is my best dps set :o it's off-spec, after all!

Kream
07-11-2008, 11:40 AM
Try out Shapeshifter's Signet if you are still using blue rings and are under the soft cap for expertise. It only costs 20g.

ebs2002
07-11-2008, 01:09 PM
It also requires exalted Lower City. Not one of the easy ones to grind...ever try PUGing a crypts group?