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View Full Version : Fathom Lord Shaman - Avoidance or EH?



Krashtork
06-24-2008, 09:15 AM
Hey there everyone,

My guild just downed FLK last night for the first time on our second attempt on our second night of attempts.

I was given the task of tanking the Shaman guard and to put it lightly, it went poorly.

Now, I generally believe that I am a good tank. I rarely miss Com shouts, TC's or Dem shouts, I keep a up the rotation of SS, Rev, Dev, Dev, and rarely miss a shield block.

I ended up dying to the Shaman twice, the first time I got bursted and my healers, two priests, were slow to react. This was their first time healing it and my first time tanking it so none of us were expecting such a burst, and as we all know health potions only go so far. I was using my Effective Health set and had about 21k hp.

I checked the death log on Recount and it did not appead to me that I took crushing blows, just lots of medium sized hits.

The second time we switched one of the priests with a resto druid thinking that the HoTs would help stabalize the spike damage. It didn't. I ended up dying around the time the raid was finishing off the hunter add, and luckily for us the main tank who was on FLK had some aggro on it from the pull and tanked it along with FLK. Amazingly enough this was a succesful attempt.

Later my priest healer /w'd me and told me that he was changing positions while I took the burst. My death log in Recount supported this by showing that I only recieved a renew tick and a coupe rejuv / lifebloom heals for the last 5 seconds.

My GM however felt that this was my fault for dying. While I don't normally blame the healers, this to me seemed like a healing issue. My GM used to raid tank before, and during the early BC release and subscribed to the pro-avoidance school of thought. She is now DPS and not an active tank in our guild. I however am much bigger on EH. We tend to clash a lot about which encounters are best suited for which tanking style. She feels that had I stacked more avoidance this wouldn't have been a problem.

So my question is: Is this a situation that avoidance is better than high EH, or are my healers failing me?

hbombs
06-24-2008, 09:31 AM
IMO its one of those fights where you put on your best available gear. If you are killing the hunter first avoid certain threat stats BV and Hit and go for stam and avoidance. Do a great mix of both. No need to go extreme one or the other.

We kill the shaman first but I'm not gonna get into boss strats.. just thought i would mention that :) Anyway if you kill shaman first MT easily kites fathom lord a little when a totem drops works for us.

your healers need to be on the ball.. may just be a matter of getting used to the fight.

phaze
06-24-2008, 09:38 AM
I ended up dying to the Shaman twice, the first time I got bursted and my healers, two priests, were slow to react.

I checked the death log on Recount and it did not appead to me that I took crushing blows, just lots of medium sized hits.

Any Frost Shocks in there? Grounding those out with a Shaman in your group helps immensely.



The second time ... I ended up dying around the time the raid was finishing off the hunter add

Killing Tidalvess last? That's an increased strain on your specific healers, since no one will be destroying the Spitfire Totems. Doable, just have to plan around it with sufficient healing.



I only recieved a renew tick and a coupe rejuv / lifebloom heals for the last 5 seconds.

Yeah, this points to a healer goof. If they're not topping you off after a hit, then your burst survivability drops considerably for anything following.



So my question is: Is this a situation that avoidance is better than high EH, or are my healers failing me?
We kill Tidalvess first to eliminate the burst damage; our tanking strategy is max EH and soak the hits while Tidalvess is burned down. Sure it's less efficient, but healers don't run out of mana on this fight anyway.

As for the survivability boost from an avoidance gearset: the increased EDF just didn't seem worth the EH cost, at the T5 gear level.

Krashtork
06-24-2008, 09:41 AM
Thanks for the input. Honestly my EH gear is my best gear. I don't have that low of avoidance stats either. I have 52.03% miss + dodge + parry. So half the attacks don't even reach me if I am checking my stats right. I too would have liked to see the shammy die first, but It wasn't my call and I'll do whatever works best for the guild.

EDIT: to Phaze: Thanks for the tip on the grounding totem, I will definitely bring that up next time we do FLK, there were some FS's that could have been avoided and would have made a difference for sure.

And to be clear we did Tidalviss 2nd.

Our order was Hunter > Sham > Priest > FLK

And yeah, i'd rather do the EH thing and soak up hits.

Brainwreck
06-24-2008, 10:41 AM
Thanks for the input. Honestly my EH gear is my best gear. I don't have that low of avoidance stats either. I have 52.03% miss + dodge + parry. So half the attacks don't even reach me if I am checking my stats right.

Don't think it works like that seeing as how they are raid bosses.

Krashtork
06-24-2008, 11:07 AM
I know this probably isn't the place for this, but can anyone verify if I added up my avoidance correctly?

I think I read that you add your dodge + parry then the % to miss you get from defense, and then +5% for general chance to miss. Is this right?

Danach
06-24-2008, 11:32 AM
When we were first doing the fight we went with the standard boss strats out there and were trying to kill the hunter first. In most cases our tidalvess tank ended up getting jibbed by a huge burst. As soon as we switched to tanking tidalvess and the hunter on top of each other, and burning tidalvess down first we one shot the encounter every week.

klor
06-24-2008, 11:41 AM
We always do the shaman first in this encounter. EH is the best bet for this fight as half the burst you receive is not physical damage. Both the shocks and the totems add ontop of the damage you receive, neither of which do avoidance help on. The problem with stacking too much avodiance on this fight, is that it...just like the shock/windfury burst, is luck based. Can happen at any time or when you least expect it. You are better off stacking as much stam/hp as possible, but you dont want to slack on your avoidance too much. You still need a reasonable amount of avoidance or you will get insta gibbed either way.

Sangi
06-26-2008, 01:01 PM
EDIT: to Phaze: Thanks for the tip on the grounding totem, I will definitely bring that up next time we do FLK, there were some FS's that could have been avoided and would have made a difference for sure.

Have him drop a Frost resist totem while he is in there it will help with the burst. But I agree with the above statements if you are a warrior tank for this go with EH for the bursts. Also get the raid to drop as much miss debuffs on him as possible. Weakness, Hunter stings and boomkin insects are great helpers.

rustyboy
06-26-2008, 09:08 PM
Effective health works if Tidalvess is your first DPS target as you have a heap of heals and need to keep threat as well. My guild killed her second so threat was not an issue, so I went full avoidance with as much stamina as possible. That plus grounding totem etc and it worked pretty well. Just make sure your healers are ready to go full tilt from the start.

ebs2002
07-25-2008, 12:27 PM
I've been the tank for Tidalvess for 4 one-shots now, and we kill them in the same order (hunter>pet>shaman>priest>flk).

He's level 72 so he doesn't crush, and he has a lower parry rate so 24 expertise is all you need. I pop on double-sta trinkets (Commendation and Darkmoon, no pocket-watch but it's not that beneficial because there's not much time to react), and that's about it. I hit 18k armor and 20.5k hp unbuffed. I frequently ask for a grounding totem, and depending on our number of shamen I may or may not get it.

You still wanna spam shield block, keep him demo'd and tclapped with commanding shout up as much as possible. Have your finger on your oh-shit buttons...I frequently have to burn last stand and at least one healthstone each attempt.

Try to have a priest and a pally as your healers; druids don't have the kind of burst healing you need.

But yeah, this is not an avoidance fight; he hits hard AND fast, and if you're sitting at only 18k hp you'll still take the burst (especially if you don't have a grounding totem).

Shadevarr
08-13-2008, 11:36 AM
For Tidalvess I try to stay at around 21k health raid buffed and about 45% avoidance. Got positive feedback from our healers with that. Then again we kill Tidalvess 1st so I have to put on some threat pieces as well where I can.

Kavel
08-13-2008, 11:58 AM
Yeah, pop your oh-shit buttons pro-actively (like anytime you're below 50%). I also recommend an ironshield potion, and maybe even armor and agility scrolls too.

Ceravantes
08-16-2008, 07:23 AM
When we were first doing FLK, we would run a priest/pally healing the shaman tank, with a resto shaman chain healing the tank to grab the melee as well. Grounding totem is the real savior here though, as it is the wf/fs combos that will kill you, his other hits are easily survivable. If youa re having survivability problems, kill the shaman first, as it will only get worse the longer he is up.

This was all well before badge gear was what it is now, when we went back in t6 lvl gear we could 2 heal him and 1 heal everything else at the start of the fight, so i would imagine with full badge gear you could do something similar.

Also, killing the shaman frees up another raid healer,a s well as another healer for the FLK tank which will be needed once the hunter drops. If we had the extra healer we used to put someone in range of FLK's healers to heal them fromt he spitfire totems, this is not always necesary, but an enraged flk during a kite away from a totem can possibly go badly if the healers are healing themselves too.

Sanelora
08-16-2008, 08:01 AM
Yeah, pop your oh-shit buttons pro-actively (like anytime you're below 50%). I also recommend an ironshield potion, and maybe even armor and agility scrolls too.

Dont use armor scrolls! they erase inspiration and ancestral fortitude

but agi scrolls. Man they are good!

hvidgaard
09-07-2008, 05:54 AM
Knowing this is an older thread I'm gonna reply anyway as I tank the shaman usually.

My stats is 20k buffed, 50ish% avoidance and enough expertise to break the parrycap on him, think I have 17k armor. I have a shaman dropping Frost Resistance and Grounding totem and 2 healers. I think what makes or breaks it for a 1-shot every time is using both Greater Ward of Shielding (to counter any initial burst from Auto attack + WF proc + shock at once if your unlucky) and Greater Rune of Warding (to lower the general incoming damage).

The healers also have a great deal to say in this and I usually get our best for the job along with a shammy healer.

bludwork
09-09-2008, 07:07 AM
best geared tank on the shaman, worst geared tank on FLK

Del
09-09-2008, 10:07 AM
Best geared tank on the shaman, second best on FLK IMO. The other 2 hit hard, but most can be 1-2 healed through it in all phases of the encounter. As with any "moroes like" encounter, the pull is the hardest part of the fight.




For any fight that is about survival (assuming you're killing tidalvess second so threat isn't an issue), max avoidance and stam, once you hit 19k health or so, avoidance gives more survivability for your itemization points, but it's really just about eliminating pieces with alot of BV/BR unless they are still far superior in terms of stam/avoidance.


fortitude/agi elixir and an agi scroll if you're having trouble staying alive for consumables.