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View Full Version : Prince is wiping the floor with us - help



SionaAmanThul
06-24-2008, 03:53 AM
My guild is up to about 9-10 wipes on Prince. This is me (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Aman%27Thul&n=Vitharr).

To be honest, some of the wipes were unlucky due to infernal landings but others were completely our fault. This is the first boss where I'm starting to feel the heat of the DPS behind me. For the first time in guild history, a couple of DPSers pulled aggro on me. So, I'm here asking for help and guidance.

I'm the only warrior in our raid and I've been trying to keep demo shout and TC up on Prince. Of course, I do this after ensuring the 5 devastates in the rotation. However, I'm seeing that this decreases my threat momentarily and the DPSers are catching up fast. I also seem to be missing more on him and that is leading to lower threat.

I'm going to start using WWS stats now to see if I can analyze better but any thoughts you might have are appreciated. I do swallow an Elixir of Demonslaying right before phase 2 to try and gain some threat before the DPSers go all out.

Thanks in advance.

Juised
06-24-2008, 05:03 AM
you've got more expertise and hit rating than me so that means you can generate more threat than me. dps that do around 1k dps have never been able to pull prince of me. if your having the infernal issues i suggest the tactics where the healers and ranged stay at the door. that tactic helps you avoid infernals by just moving a step to the left or to the right depending on where infernals drop. if your dps does around 500-600 dps each that should be more than enough to get prince down with a 3 healers raid group.

Leytur
06-24-2008, 05:09 AM
For the first time in guild history, a couple of DPSers pulled aggro on me. So, I'm here asking for help and guidance.

I stopped reading. That's your problem. They need to wake tf up and learn2omen.

DPS absolutely positively cannot pull aggro on this fight.

You also need to manage surviving before threating. So they need to chill tf out.

From 100-60% they can barely do anything. Let you get a huge threat lead. Huge. Then 60-30% nuke him fast so you aren't getting banged for too long.

But your priority is thunderclap/demo shout debuffs ALL the time. Don't let it drop for a second. And shield block ALL the time.

After that threat is where it's at. But only after that. If you make sure the TC/DS refreshes happen when both SS and Rev are on CD you should be fine with threat.

But seriously, why can't DPS read Omen? That can be a huge problem on this fight. HUGE!

Tankar
06-24-2008, 10:19 AM
I took a look at your gear, and WOW. You are way past tanking Prince man.
Take a look: Be Imba! - the online Character Auditor for World of Warcraft (http://be.imba.hu/?zone=US&realm=Aman%27Thul&character=Vitharr)

One thing that you may be low on is hit and expertise rating. If your "uber" dps guildies are overtaking you, maybe trade those +10 Defense gems for +hit gems. You also might want to look at this ring from MgT: Band of Determination - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=34706).

An even better upgrade for you would be the Girdle of the Fearless - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=34941). Its an upgrade for you over that Tankadin waist you have on now.

But unless your friends are just critting left and right, you should have no problem with Prince.

-Tankar

Leytur
06-24-2008, 01:01 PM
I would certainly not trust beimba for telling me what content I should be tanking. I suppose you could use it as a tool. But it's telling me to tank early T6. No thank you.

kawika
06-24-2008, 01:42 PM
you've got more expertise and hit rating than me so that means you can generate more threat than me. dps that do around 1k dps have never been able to pull prince of me. if your having the infernal issues i suggest the tactics where the healers and ranged stay at the door. that tactic helps you avoid infernals by just moving a step to the left or to the right depending on where infernals drop. if your dps does around 500-600 dps each that should be more than enough to get prince down with a 3 healers raid group.

Actually for phase 1....go without demoshout and TC. he's fairly weak during this phase. Allowing the extra incoming damage in this phase will result in an increase your incoming rage, which will allow you to push out more threat. phase 2 is when you need TC/demo up.

if you're dps'ers pulled agro on prince then they really went too far as they broke the 10%/30% barrier. they shouldnt pass 100% threat on you at any point or they risk you being insta-gibbed.

TheMainFrame
06-24-2008, 01:53 PM
agreed.. ive never lost prince's aggro before... offcourse my guild holds a no omen no raid policy cause thats just absurd to pull aggro from a tank.

Do you have Omen? Whats your TPS look like? are you dropping sheild slam and revenge the moment there cooldowns are up?

and i agree... i will ushually wait for the second phase before i spam TC/DS but will still drop it from time to time in phase one if everything else is going good

Tankar
06-24-2008, 02:16 PM
I would certainly not trust beimba for telling me what content I should be tanking. I suppose you could use it as a tool. But it's telling me to tank early T6. No thank you.

I use it for an easy analysis of gear and enchants. I find it much easier to read than going to the WoW armory page.

But looking at his gear, you have to agree he should not have a problem with it.

-Tankar

SionaAmanThul
06-24-2008, 03:33 PM
Thanks all.

We do use Omen but some people have a hard time reading it. We spoke to the ones pulling aggro and they will focus more on it.

Yes, I am on the normal tanking boss rotation and I never miss a SS or revenge. What we don't do is have dps wait for me to get sufficient threat at the outset. The result is that they catch up during phase 2. So then I'm playing a cat and mouse game with the dps. It was mostly the mage and warlock going all out.

We'll see Prince again this week and I'm going to tell dps to lay off during phase one and let me build more threat. I will also try to DM/TC only during phase 2. Lets see how it goes.

Reod
06-24-2008, 05:34 PM
Help your raiders set up their Omen so that it is a chart showing them their place in the threat hierarchy and your place. Everyone can read a chart. Don't let the bar with your name on it go higher then 100%. They don't have to pull aggro on this fight to wipe the raid. If they are higher then you on the list bad things can happen.

I know on my mage I would wait for the tank to get aggro before I began DPSing, use invis a little before phase 2 and I would still have to stop DPSing at various points after invis was used because I was on the verge of pulling aggro.

DPSing effectively isn't just doing as much damage as possible. Its knowing when and how to do the damage as well. Tanks set the DPS limit. Its a DPSer's job to know where this limit is and stay just far enough under it that a couple crits won't pull.

Danach
06-24-2008, 06:40 PM
Yeah, back when I still played my lock I did similar. Very slow and steady DPS during P1, life tap to full, and shatter just before P2 hit, then use trinkets and nuke as hard as I could in P2. Sometimes during P3 I would cap out again but generally was fine.

Shortypop
06-25-2008, 01:08 AM
What classes are pulling agro? Apart from the odd ones no one should be - insist that mages invis at 62% (yes its a few seconds of no dps but it means they can go all out from then on without a problem - i play a mage alt so I know this to be true), remind hunters to burn misds and fiegn deaths and locks to soulshatter (and hope its not resisted). Melee shouldnt be a problem, as the chances are they are running in and out for the aoe he does (sorry cant remember the name). I can't access armory atm, but if you are overgeared then stack expertise and hit, but tbh I tanked prince with about 20 hit and no expertise, ofc if your dps is overgeared as well then it could be more of a problem.

As far as debuffs go - you can always get a lock to put up CoW if you want some more gcds to spare and if you're not dieing in P1, I wouldnt stress too much about thunderclap, although in theory it doesnt use up too many gcds you can sometimes run into some nasty series of resists :(

Leytur
06-25-2008, 04:18 AM
It sounds like there's not a hunter in the group. :( That would help a lot. MDs, FDs, AND scorpid sting in P2.

Kerchunk
06-25-2008, 01:23 PM
I would certainly not trust beimba for telling me what content I should be tanking. I suppose you could use it as a tool. But it's telling me to tank early T6. No thank you.

Uhh, wtf not? You're easily geared for early T6 content, man.

What's with this general lack of confidence in the Tanking community? You have better gear than probably 90% of the Tanks who first set foot in BT when it opened, let alone MH (which you could probably MT besides Archimonde).


As for your problems on Prince, if DPS are pulling aggro it's not your problem. DPS's one and only job is to not pull aggro. If they're "blaming" you for their own incompetence, then find a new Kara group.

That's not to say you shouldn't try to improve your threat output, but lower threat from you should result only in reduced DPS - never in aggro pulling. Pulling aggro is not your problem to solve, it's a mistake on the part of the DPSer and the solution is to teach that person how to play their class properly. Period.

Armstrong
06-25-2008, 09:33 PM
Uhh, wtf not? You're easily geared for early T6 content, man.

Seconded. :)

Leytur
06-25-2008, 10:20 PM
I do not want to:

1) find a 25 man group/guild that I
A) Get along with
B) Raids at times convenient for me

2) learn 3 T4 bosses I haven't seen yet, 11 (?) T5 bosses, and 14 (?) T6 bosses from scratch

That's all :D I'd rather have a bear mount and collect gold for xpac.

Kerchunk
06-25-2008, 11:14 PM
I do not want to:

1) find a 25 man group/guild that I
A) Get along with
B) Raids at times convenient for me

2) learn 3 T4 bosses I haven't seen yet, 11 (?) T5 bosses, and 14 (?) T6 bosses from scratch

That's all :D I'd rather have a bear mount and collect gold for xpac.

Well, not being willing or able to run certain instances is different than saying you're not geared for them.

Be Imba! is relatively accurate with its estimates I've found. Much more accurate than most people on the game itself.

kawika
06-26-2008, 05:55 PM
Thanks all.

We do use Omen but some people have a hard time reading it. We spoke to the ones pulling aggro and they will focus more on it.

Yes, I am on the normal tanking boss rotation and I never miss a SS or revenge. What we don't do is have dps wait for me to get sufficient threat at the outset. The result is that they catch up during phase 2. So then I'm playing a cat and mouse game with the dps. It was mostly the mage and warlock going all out.

We'll see Prince again this week and I'm going to tell dps to lay off during phase one and let me build more threat. I will also try to DM/TC only during phase 2. Lets see how it goes.


By default, there's a whole lotta flashes, text, and warning sounds that goes off with omen when you reach X amount of threat. I believe default is set to 90% threat of the mob's current target. The threshold, warning, sounds, and texts are configurable. They dont need to keep their eyes glued to omen..at least not until the warnings goes off.

as others have mentioned, classes like rogues, mages, and hunters have complete agro wiping abilites. warlocks have soul shatter (50% permanent agro reduction...available every 5 min).

also as mentioned by others....hunter misdirects at the start and whenever available is huge for helping add to your threat. shaman's earthshield and a priests prayer of mending helps as well.

SionaAmanThul
06-27-2008, 05:47 AM
Prince is dead. Thanks to all.

We do have a hunter and he did MD to me at the start. Not sure after. Also, the classes that pulled aggro were lock and mage. They do have omen but were simply not paying attention.

All's well now but we've wiped on Nightbane 4 times! LOL

SionaAmanThul
06-27-2008, 05:47 AM
Prince is dead. Thanks to all.

We do have a hunter and he did MD to me at the start. Not sure after. Also, the classes that pulled aggro were lock and mage. They do have omen but were simply not paying attention.

All's well now but we've wiped on Nightbane 4 times! LOL

Smaken
07-02-2008, 07:45 PM
Prince is a lot easier than Nightbane (imo), we had problems with everyone standing to close to him when he was landing and getting 1 or 2 of our healers insta-killed.

After that we had some issues with people standing in the charred earth, but when we realized that was being caused by people with their spell details set to low, we now down him pretty easily, depending on how many new people/alts we go with...

Leytur
07-03-2008, 05:06 AM
Nightbane has zero randomness though. Prince has quite a bit of randomness. You don't die on Nightbane to bad infernals. So once you learn the Nightbane fight it's a pretty guaranteed one shot. Prince not so much.

Mcginty
07-04-2008, 08:36 AM
Prince is serious business

Mcginty
07-04-2008, 08:37 AM
Nightbane has zero randomness though. Prince has quite a bit of randomness. You don't die on Nightbane to bad infernals. So once you learn the Nightbane fight it's a pretty guaranteed one shot. Prince not so much.

truth be told, I am tired of people talking about bad infernals. Move the raid, move prince. If you are boxed in, just heal the MT through it and have ranged stay away.

Kerchunk
07-04-2008, 02:00 PM
truth be told, I am tired of people talking about bad infernals. Move the raid, move prince. If you are boxed in, just heal the MT through it and have ranged stay away.

It's true that people overstate what "bad infernals" mean, because for most scrub groups it just means their tank is incapable of repositioning Prince properly when infernals start to drop nearby.

However, that doesn't change the fact that luck is indeed involved. Infernals can easily triangulate in such a way that repositioning is simply impossible, and melee are unable to flee enfeebles and/or range are unable to get in range without taking infernal damage. It happens. Less often than people claim it does, but it happens.

Kerchunk
07-04-2008, 02:03 PM
After that we had some issues with people standing in the charred earth, but when we realized that was being caused by people with their spell details set to low, we now down him pretty easily, depending on how many new people/alts we go with...

If people are dying when he's landing, 9 times out of 10 this is a problem the Tank can correct.

The most important piece of information for Tanking Nightbane is this: He can be hit long before his feet touch the ground.

As he comes in for a landing, jump and shield slam, then start devestating. You can easily get in a Shield Slam and 2-3 devestates before he even touches the ground.

If you wait for him to make contact with the ground, he is very often going to turn and one-shot a healer due to some random lifebloom tick threat or something similar. It's your job to prevent this.

TheMainFrame
08-31-2008, 03:50 PM
When we get the so called "bad infernals" it just means the fight will take a little longer then we hoped... but not much more then that.

I tank prince against the right wall and my entire group will just wait just inside the door.. all our ranged stays by the door and should the infernal between us drop then its no biggy cause our ranged and healers can still reach me and him.. and should the inferno on my right drop as well, despite the fact it looks like they overlap, there is a spot against that wall between the infernals that your not getting hit by the infernals and ranged and healers can still hit me and him... then you just wait out the infernal between us and then get back to work and finish him off... never been a problem really

as a tank i find the fight to be very straight forward and rather boring infact.. only time we ever wipe is when are silly DPS dies from the infeeble (or whatever it is) which is just unnecessary!

Sporr
09-09-2008, 09:21 PM
Make sure you're spamming heroic strike also. I found that when I respecced for Improved HS, it made a noticable improvement, and that I could even keep ahead of my agromonkey warlock. There's absolutely nothing wrong with your gear for that encounter.

Rev13
09-10-2008, 05:57 AM
if you have Hunters in the group, make sure they MD you at the outset, and at the very minimum, MD you at each phase.

The opening MD should be Aimed Shot> Distracting Shot> space bar to jump and thereby clip their Auto Shot> Arcane Shot.

The 60% MD shouldnt be anything like that, just have them throw an MD up and then go balls deep. For me, this means Steady Shot>Auto Shot>Steady Shot.

At 30%, same thing as 60%. Dont ask them to sacrifice valuable mana and dps time, the MD should be enough.

If an infernal drops on your head, ya gotta move him. This much is obvious but it really kills your momentum, and now everything is up in the air. The issue is dragging him to a new location, while taking damage and dealing out little to none. If you have to move him, ask those dps to lay off while doing so.

Are people avoiding the shadow nova properly?

protonly
09-10-2008, 07:26 AM
I recommend opening up with devistates and *not* shield slam. Why? Because bloodrage gives you enough rage for about one shield slam or two devistates...if you miss your shield slam you're fucked. If you miss your first devistate then you got enough for another one and after one devistate you've got your hooks in. Just spam the rotation and mix in heroic strike and have a beer.

For Nightbane and Prince MD makes it a lot easier but gun pull and devistate works well enough.