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Garbid
06-23-2008, 07:08 AM
Hit is pretty damn important till you've reached your hitcap (or soft-cap for dw). But what of expertise?
Is it like "a must" to reach your softcap or would going only half way with only Shard of contempt be enough ?

Since I'm a tank and 80% of all the parry gibs I take from bosses come from meele being parried (not standing in front, just to near the center of the boss's hitbox), I was thinking of it as a dual stat kinda :D Reduced parry/dodge/block to increase meele dmg dealt, and also to reduce parry gibs making bossfights safer with lot fewer spikes.

WWS a Teron fight last night and found out that both times I got spike dmg, it was always due to parry->hit->parry->hit->parry->hit consecutively atleast 3 hits in a row. Ate up my block charges once so I got a 12k crush. I ate 24k dmg in 3 sec but good heals saw me through :)

What are your thoughts guys ? How important is expertise for meele dps ?

Croma
06-23-2008, 07:34 AM
Well,

considering dps expertise functions the same way as +hit when standing behind a mob, it does not matter if your attack is a 'miss' or a 'dodge' it just won't do any damage. On my rogue, I work on capping hit as well as the dodge part of expertise, just makes for much more predictable threat, as well as one of the best dps stats out there.

As to reduce parries, thats only important when placement is an issue and you need to dps as fast as possible. In most fights you can avoid being parried by the boss by watching your placement. If this is an issue as you write, explain the parry mechanichs to your DPS, I have found that alot of non tanks does not quite understand why its so important not to get parried.

All in all i find the parry just a bonus that under ideal curcumstances will not affect me, that makes expertise worth a bit more than hit % for %.

Rishkkin
06-23-2008, 07:40 AM
I was wondering the same thing (although from an ARMS DPS PoV)

I'm currently a little over the hit cap (152 hit if I recall) and only have 4 Expertise (from the SSO tanking Neckpiece) I'm scryer so the proc grants me more expertise.
Assuming the proc occurred I'm expertise capped (I think).

Is it still worth for me to get other + expertise item if I happen to get some, or should I focus on other stats ?

clavarnway
06-23-2008, 11:08 AM
I was wondering the same thing (although from an ARMS DPS PoV)

I'm currently a little over the hit cap (152 hit if I recall) and only have 4 Expertise (from the SSO tanking trinket) I'm scryer so the proc grants me more expertise.
Assuming the proc occurred I'm expertise capped (I think).

Is it still worth for me to get other + expertise item if I happen to get some, or should I focus on other stats ?
I assume you mean expertise neck not trinket. You want to get Shard of Contempt, anyhow - it's awesome.

Rishkkin
06-23-2008, 12:10 PM
Yep, I mean, the neckpiece.

shiz98
06-26-2008, 07:05 PM
Point for point, expertise is more valuable than hit if you're over the cap. Give it as much priority as you would give hit.

Which is to say, it's a good DPS stat, but requiring someone to be expertise capped is as silly as requiring someone to be hit capped.

As you mentioned, the analysis is much different for tanks.

Garbid
06-27-2008, 02:57 AM
Parrying a tank can cause a hasted attack and several parries in a row can get your tank killed. I did a little research on this matter on my last Teron Gorefiend kill to see what was happening when I took a dmg spike. About 85% of all parries made by Teron was results of Meele dps standing inside his hitbox, though still out of his Cleave area.

The following WWB filtered report is what I posted on my guilds forum trying to get people to watch better how they position themselve and to get more expertise.

Time Action
21:55'52.031 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing hits Desul for 9162 Physical damage
21:55'54.062 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing parried by Desul
21:55'56.046 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing hits Desul for 6642 Physical damage (403 blocked)
21:55'58.109 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing dodged by Desul
21:56'00.187 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing hits Desul for 6979 Physical damage (403 blocked)
21:56'02.140 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing parried by Desul
21:56'04.156 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing hits Desul for 6834 Physical damage (403 blocked)
21:56'06.218 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing hits Desul for 7041 Physical damage (403 blocked)
21:56'07.468 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing parried by Desul
21:56'08.125 - Haastia's Swing parried by Teron Gorefiend
21:56'08.687 - Galrath's Swing parried by Teron Gorefiend
21:56'08.953 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing hits Desul for 5441 Physical damage (403 blocked)
21:56'11.046 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing hits Desul for 5420 Physical damage (403 blocked)
21:56'16.453 - Ravager's Bite parried by Teron Gorefiend
21:56'16.859 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing hits Desul for 6290 Physical damage (403 blocked)
21:56'18.843 - Samons's Swing parried by Teron Gorefiend
21:56'19.203 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing hits Desul for 5451 Physical damage (403 blocked)
21:56'19.343 - Bombo's Swing parried by Teron Gorefiend
21:56'19.359 - Cranium's Sinister Strike parried by Teron Gorefiend
21:56'19.562 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing parried by Desul
21:56'19.859 - Ravager's Swing parried by Teron Gorefiend
21:56'20.703 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing misses Desul
Thank god I avoided some hits here. If I get hit twice in a row my block charges will be used up and a third hit might result in a crushing for 12k. Possibly take 20-26k in the same sec.

21:56'26.328 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing hits Desul for 5960 Physical damage (403 blocked)
21:56'28.281 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing misses Desul
21:56'32.031 - Galrath's Devastate parried by Teron Gorefiend
21:56'32.250 - Wax's Swing parried by Teron Gorefiend
21:56'32.343 - Samons's Swing parried by Teron Gorefiend
21:56'32.781 - Galrath's Swing parried by Teron Gorefiend
21:56'32.781 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing dodged by Desul
21:56'34.734 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing dodged by Desul
21:56'36.750 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing hits Desul for 5981 Physical damage (403 blocked)
21:56'38.718 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing hits Desul for 6424 Physical damage (403 blocked)
21:56'40.781 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing misses Desul
21:56'42.796 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing dodged by Desul
21:56'45.093 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing hits Desul for 6522 Physical damage (403 blocked)
21:56'46.468 - Desul's Swing parried by Teron Gorefiend
21:56'46.906 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing dodged by Desul
21:56'49.343 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing dodged by Desul
21:56'51.734 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing hits Desul for 6175 Physical damage (403 blocked)
21:56'54.125 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing parried by Desul
21:56'54.937 - Desul's Heroic Strike parried by Teron Gorefiend
21:56'55.609 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing hits Desul for 4771 Physical damage (403 blocked)
21:56'57.750 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing hits Desul for 6775 Physical damage (403 blocked)
21:57'00.140 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing misses Desul
21:57'02.593 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing hits Desul for 6336 Physical damage (403 blocked)
21:57'05.687 - Samons's Heroic Strike parried by Teron Gorefiend
21:57'06.093 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing hits Desul for 4550 Physical damage (403 blocked)
21:57'06.234 - Desul's Heroic Strike parried by Teron Gorefiend
21:57'07.562 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing hits Desul for 5240 Physical damage (403 blocked)
21:57'09.921 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing hits Desul for 6200 Physical damage (403 blocked)
21:57'12.359 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing hits Desul for 5892 Physical damage (403 blocked)
21:57'14.562 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing dodged by Desul
21:57'16.531 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing misses Desul
21:57'18.609 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing dodged by Desul
21:57'19.421 - Ravager's Swing parried by Teron Gorefiend
21:57'19.796 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing hits Desul for 6433 Physical damage (403 blocked)
21:57'21.781 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing hits Desul for 7621 Physical damage (403 blocked)
21:57'23.828 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing hits Desul for 7108 Physical damage (403 blocked)
21:57'25.828 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing dodged by Desul
21:57'28.093 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing hits Desul for 6390 Physical damage (403 blocked)
21:57'30.156 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing hits Desul for 5929 Physical damage (403 blocked)
21:57'31.468 - Cranium's Swing parried by Teron Gorefiend
21:57'31.812 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing dodged by Desul
21:57'31.828 - Énsutee's Swing parried by Teron Gorefiend
21:57'32.906 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing hits Desul for 6000 Physical damage (403 blocked)
Again avoided taking 3 hits in a row.

21:57'34.921 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing hits Desul for 7523 Physical damage (403 blocked)
21:57'36.984 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing parried by Desul
21:57'38.921 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing parried by Desul
21:57'39.890 - Desul's Revenge parried by Teron Gorefiend
21:57'40.250 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing hits Desul for 5894 Physical damage (403 blocked)
21:57'42.250 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing hits Desul for 7739 Physical damage (403 blocked)
21:57'43.531 - Danield's Ferocious Bite parried by Teron Gorefiend
21:57'44.218 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing hits Desul for 6204 Physical damage (403 blocked)
21:57'44.437 - Wax's Swing parried by Teron Gorefiend
21:57'45.406 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing hits Desul for 12168 Physical damage (crushing)
21:57'47.281 - Ravager's Gore parried by Teron Gorefiend
21:57'47.406 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing hits Desul for 5451 Physical damage (403 blocked)
Luckily the parry from that Ravager didn't come like 1sec sooner, cause I took a high dmg spike and procced my trinket for "Evasive Maneuvers".

21:57'49.484 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing hits Desul for 7175 Physical damage (403 blocked)
21:57'52.578 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing dodged by Desul
21:57'54.296 - Cranium's Swing parried by Teron Gorefiend
21:57'55.468 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing dodged by Desul
21:57'57.437 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing dodged by Desul
21:57'59.687 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing hits Desul for 7627 Physical damage (403 blocked)
21:58'00.437 - Samons's Swing parried by Teron Gorefiend
21:58'00.656 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing hits Desul for 6405 Physical damage (403 blocked)
21:58'03.109 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing dodged by Desul
21:58'06.562 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing hits Desul for 5728 Physical damage (403 blocked)
21:58'09.109 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing hits Desul for 5663 Physical damage (403 blocked)
21:58'11.484 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing dodged by Desul
21:58'13.281 - Bombo's Swing parried by Teron Gorefiend
21:58'13.906 - Danield's Swing parried by Teron Gorefiend
21:58'14.406 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing parried by Desul
21:58'16.765 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing parried by Desul
21:58'18.265 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing hits Desul for 6159 Physical damage (403 blocked)
21:58'19.531 - Bombo's Swing parried by Teron Gorefiend
21:58'20.015 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing hits Desul for 5636 Physical damage (403 blocked)
21:58'22.453 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing hits Desul for 6220 Physical damage (403 blocked)
21:58'22.593 - Bombo's Swing parried by Teron Gorefiend
21:58'24.031 - Galrath's Heroic Strike parried by Teron Gorefiend
21:58'25.250 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing dodged by Desul
21:58'28.031 - Desul's Swing parried by Teron Gorefiend
21:58'28.937 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing hits Desul for 7105 Physical damage (403 blocked)
21:58'29.703 - Bombo's Swing parried by Teron Gorefiend
21:58'30.125 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing dodged by Desul
21:58'32.125 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing hits Desul for 6307 Physical damage (403 blocked)
21:58'34.359 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing hits Desul for 5917 Physical damage (403 blocked)
21:58'36.734 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing hits Desul for 5252 Physical damage (403 blocked)
21:58'36.906 - Bombo's Swing parried by Teron Gorefiend
21:58'38.171 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing parried by Desul
21:58'40.578 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing hits Desul for 6331 Physical damage (403 blocked)
21:58'42.953 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing hits Desul for 5368 Physical damage (403 blocked)
21:58'44.515 - Bombo's Swing parried by Teron Gorefiend
21:58'44.843 - Desul's Heroic Strike parried by Teron Gorefiend
21:58'45.000 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing parried by Desul
21:58'48.343 - Bombo's Swing parried by Teron Gorefiend
21:58'48.546 - Énsutee's Swing parried by Teron Gorefiend
21:58'48.828 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing dodged by Desul
21:58'51.250 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing parried by Desul
21:58'53.671 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing hits Desul for 6244 Physical damage (403 blocked)
21:58'56.046 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing hits Desul for 4542 Physical damage (403 blocked)
21:58'58.468 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing parried by Desul
21:59'00.390 - Bombo's Swing parried by Teron Gorefiend
21:59'00.906 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing dodged by Desul
21:59'03.296 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing misses Desul
21:59'05.671 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing dodged by Desul
21:59'08.109 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing parried by Desul
21:59'12.890 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing hits Desul for 7437 Physical damage (403 blocked)
21:59'15.171 - Énsutee's Swing parried by Teron Gorefiend
21:59'15.343 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing parried by Desul
21:59'15.703 - Wax's Swing parried by Teron Gorefiend
21:59'15.828 - Cranium's Swing parried by Teron Gorefiend
21:59'16.140 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing hits Desul for 6021 Physical damage (403 blocked)
21:59'16.750 - Bombo's Swing parried by Teron Gorefiend
21:59'19.453 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing hits Desul for 6102 Physical damage (403 blocked)
21:59'20.640 - Desul's Heroic Strike parried by Teron Gorefiend
21:59'21.078 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing dodged by Desul
21:59'22.421 - Desul's Heroic Strike parried by Teron Gorefiend
21:59'25.437 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing hits Desul for 5446 Physical damage (403 blocked)
21:59'26.234 - Bombo's Swing parried by Teron Gorefiend
21:59'27.031 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing parried by Desul
21:59'27.984 - Bombo's Swing parried by Teron Gorefiend
21:59'28.390 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing dodged by Desul
21:59'30.375 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing hits Desul for 6835 Physical damage (403 blocked)
21:59'31.781 - Bombo's Swing parried by Teron Gorefiend
21:59'32.250 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing hits Desul for 7630 Physical damage (403 blocked)
21:59'34.156 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing dodged by Desul
21:59'39.109 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing hits Desul for 5456 Physical damage (403 blocked)
21:59'42.984 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing hits Desul for 6139 Physical damage (403 blocked)
21:59'45.437 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing misses Desul
21:59'47.750 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing parried by Desul
21:59'48.718 - Cranium's Swing parried by Teron Gorefiend
21:59'48.734 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing misses Desul
21:59'51.140 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing dodged by Desul
21:59'53.515 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing hits Desul for 5138 Physical damage (403 blocked)
21:59'54.359 - Bombo's Swing parried by Teron Gorefiend
21:59'55.250 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing dodged by Desul
21:59'56.171 - Bombo's Swing parried by Teron Gorefiend
21:59'56.703 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing dodged by Desul
21:59'59.843 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing dodged by Desul
22:00'02.296 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing misses Desul
22:00'04.578 - Teron Gorefiend's Swing hits Desul for 4714 Physical damage (403 blocked)
22:00'05.156 - Teron Gorefiend's Death misses Teron Gorefiend

As you can see 16% parries were mine, 84% were meele dps or a pet O:
Hope this opens up some eyes :)

ps. if your wondering about my low +block, then I was trying new things maxing my hit (142) and using high expertise (38) on that fight.
I r Desul ;) (http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Zenedar&n=Desul)

Prunetracy
06-27-2008, 11:08 AM
22:00'05.156 - Teron Gorefiend's Death misses Teron Gorefiend

That's my favorite part of the snippet.

Very interesting combat log, though. I hope your melee DPS got the point?

Also: I thought hunter pets were supposed to stay behind their target if possible. But your snippet had a lot of pet parrys, I wonder how common it is for pets to end up misplaced like that. It would certainly suck to get parry-gibbed from a pet. Maybe remind hunters to check their pet's positioning as well.

Garbid
06-27-2008, 11:40 PM
Yeah was wondering myself if it was a bug or something.

Rishkkin
06-28-2008, 05:27 PM
Thanks for the snippet, I'll keep that in mind.

Kazeyonoma
06-30-2008, 09:21 AM
great report.