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Saturday
06-19-2008, 11:25 PM
Hi, I'm a first time poster and a long time reader (yes, that includes your DW Fury guide Corb ;)).

I started out as a tank, rolled a second warrior, and found myself in a guild which actually had more room for a dps warrior than a prot. So I got myself what I could to help with their ZA and Kara runs.

Now, our usual group composition for ten mans is

Group 1 -
Two Prot Paladins
Priest
Mage

Group 2-
Fury Warrior (me)
Rogue/Hunter (BM)
Rogue
Hunter (BM)
Priest

The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Scarlet+Crusade&n=Saturday)

With my current gear setup, unless the priest gets exchanged for the resto shaman who drops windfury, I find it hard breaking 800 dps (on par with Landsoul's spreadsheet given my gear, and yes i need a SoC :( Refuses to drop).

The question I have is, is it worth the drop in personal DPS by breaking the ideal bloodthirst/whirlwind to keep a full stack of sunders up, as well as handling demo shout, battle shout and rampage?

I find that due to the nature of some of the ZA fights, I need to proactivley sunder before I have to move out so it doesn't drop off, which often means missing a bloodthirst or whirlwind to do so.

Seeing myself drop to around 400-600 DPS as a result though is kind of depressing. How much DPS does a stack of five sunders roughly add to a group of four melee who have, give or take, less than 100 armour penetration? If I have to drop something out of my rotation to do so, what should it be?

Thank you for any future replies :D

Spaceknight
06-19-2008, 11:35 PM
I find it to be the DPS warrior's job to keep up debuffs on bosses when there are no other prot warriors around. That's my opinion as it would be better to lose dps to boost raid dps,

Morgo
06-20-2008, 01:21 AM
I think the best thing is to try it out yourself, do one run (or several) where you just do your best dps, screw those sunders, record every fight via WWS, and then always maintain the full stack, record also. Compare whole raid dps.


Edit: and be sure to post any results!:D

2nd edit: or just have one protadin respecc heal or reroll dps, 2 prot paladins seems somewhat... unbalanced.

Saturday
06-20-2008, 08:13 AM
We use two protadins mainly because they're the best geared, as both were in another guild before "leading" our raids. Our warrior tanks are ok geared, but the paladins are currently able to survive better than we can. Makes trash fun though, I have to say. Don't get to sweeping strikes that much in most raids :D We occasionally pug a feral druid from another guild and the addition of faerie fire as well as the 5% crit seems to just make up for a lack of windfury. Might try the WWS tomorrow, if we can get the run going with our best people. Cheers.

Thundershoof
06-20-2008, 09:32 PM
Would it make more sense for one of the rogues to be putting up Expose Armor? I don't know how that would affect a rogue's dps, but if one of them specs to improve it that'll add 475 more armor ignore at 5 combo points than a full sunder stack.

The only downside I can see is the rogue's talent points would be wasted whenever you sub in a warrior tank.

Saturday
06-21-2008, 01:29 AM
Would it make more sense for one of the rogues to be putting up Expose Armor? I don't know how that would affect a rogue's dps, but if one of them specs to improve it that'll add 475 more armor ignore at 5 combo points than a full sunder stack.

The only downside I can see is the rogue's talent points would be wasted whenever you sub in a warrior tank.

We have actually tried this in the past when one of your rogues came spec'd Mutilate with Imp. Expose as part of the build. It was efficient when he could keep it up but he had trouble handling being able to keep up a S&D rotation along with a 5 pt. rupture. Then we tried our combat rogue doing it and while he could keep it up more effectivley (in theory), he forgot unless i drilled him about it constantly. Wasn't worth the yelling effort really :P

GarrettJaxx
06-23-2008, 05:24 PM
I think it's worth losing some dps in order to buff the raid's dps or survivability. I've been known to pump out Commanding Shout over Battleshout, when health is needed (not necessarily in ZA, but you get the picture).

My question to the OP is - who's the fifth in Group 1? I see only 4. Depending on that spot, you might want to do a few diff't things. Heck you may be helping everyone more with a Blood Frenzy 2H Arms build! But if you love Fury and have gathered DW gear (and intend on continuing to do so), then try out a bunch of things, and see how they do. WWS could be great for you to check out. Time on Target is a big DPS decreaser in ZA - between the totems, the charges, the trash, etc., you might just be seeing a decrease because of all the time it's taking you to get on target! It's a fast moving instance, for sure. Sorry for rambling ... hope it helped.

PS - if you're going for the Timed Events, by the way, screw your DPS. Check your output, sure, but you're in it for the team and that means offtanking or Lightening Totem duty, etc.

Saturday
06-23-2008, 09:36 PM
I think it's worth losing some dps in order to buff the raid's dps or survivability. I've been known to pump out Commanding Shout over Battleshout, when health is needed (not necessarily in ZA, but you get the picture).

My question to the OP is - who's the fifth in Group 1? I see only 4. Depending on that spot, you might want to do a few diff't things. Heck you may be helping everyone more with a Blood Frenzy 2H Arms build! But if you love Fury and have gathered DW gear (and intend on continuing to do so), then try out a bunch of things, and see how they do. WWS could be great for you to check out. Time on Target is a big DPS decreaser in ZA - between the totems, the charges, the trash, etc., you might just be seeing a decrease because of all the time it's taking you to get on target! It's a fast moving instance, for sure. Sorry for rambling ... hope it helped.

PS - if you're going for the Timed Events, by the way, screw your DPS. Check your output, sure, but you're in it for the team and that means offtanking or Lightening Totem duty, etc. Yes, I apparently left out a fifth in group one, I fail at math :P The fifth alternates between being any form of healer really, usually a holy paladin.

For 10 man's, I've never really seen the benefit of being arms over fury. It can be justified in a 25 man setting where 4% more damage is easily made up for by your own lack of DPS (at least at the ZA gear level, i'm well aware of how high two-handed DPS can scale at BT and beyond). But at this point, giving our two prot paladin along with the two/three other melee DPS 4% more damage doesn't seem justified all things considered. Once ZJ drops his sword though, I'm definitley going to give it a try and compare :)

Our ZA run last night had a resto shaman dropping GoA and a feral druid in my party, along with Ferocious Inspiration, which allowed for a good amount of rage gen from back to back crits to keep up a solid BT/WW with sunders/battle shouts/rampages inbetween.

It's just scary to me how much I depend on the buffs I get to maintain a decent rotation which allows for use of everything possible =\

fastidius
06-23-2008, 09:41 PM
Just replace Heroic Strike with Sunder, Sunder will help your DPS also so its probably more of a win win if you do. If you need to be a thunderclapper however then your in trouble.

getting 5 sunders on the mob fast is less important than keeping BT and WW on cooldown but you can definately fit in some sunders in your cycle.

Korlong
06-25-2008, 08:39 AM
In ZA I find I do really well on the meters, probably mainly because I DPS tank the current target or AOE targets for all of the trash.

GarrettJaxx
06-25-2008, 11:40 AM
It's just scary to me how much I depend on the buffs I get to maintain a decent rotation which allows for use of everything possible =\
Why we phail in arena as pure Fury, and why we're not the most effective in BGs, either. 'Raid-specced Fury' means just that!