View Full Version : I feel bad

06-16-2008, 02:20 PM
So just downed Prince for the upteenth time with the guild, and two non-guild, when the whole T4 debate kicks off.

There is a warlock from my guild, who is a good player, and an officer, helps with management, and arranging events, and is an allround very nice girl. She still has a blue helm despite decent other gear, and her main focus of replacement has been the T4 headpiece.

There is too a Mage, not from our guild, but from a guild we have a raiding alliance with, who isn't such a good player, and had already won the Cloak which too drops off Prince, but like our Warlock, he was very excited at the opportunity for T4, and this was his first Kara run, so he was just generally excited all night..

I thought maybe I should have said, one epic each, if you get this, you can't roll for this, etc. But because I hadn't stated this prior to the cloak roll, for which they both rolled, I felt it was a bit too late.

So we come to the roll for the Helm, the lock, and the mage roll... The Mage wins. After a lot of debate in /officer chat, with messages saying the Lock has earnt it, I stick to my word and go with the roll winner.

Have I done a bad thing??

I think T4 is a bit overrated, but it was a good upgrade for both of them, so I guess its no excuse. But I've seen people get by fine without it, and get other gear from elsewhere. But my warlock didn't seem very impressed at all!


06-16-2008, 03:17 PM
You say that 'you stuck to your word'. This suggests you stated something regarding loot before the event. If this is the case and it was to allow the same people to win multiple items on one boss ( a bit unusal unless you use DKP) then i guess they just have to live with the result.

06-16-2008, 03:17 PM
You probably did the right thing if there was no pre-assigned loot rules.....

I think the general rule for a few guilds is if your not DKPing is 1 Upgrade roll, unlimited better than shard...

If two people call upgrade they can roll against each other. If no one calls upgrade anyone who can use the item for a set/offset can roll. That way you guarantee "Upgrade to main sets" get priority and loot is shared around. You won't get rid of the 2 people wanting 1 Item issues and if they earn't it questions but then thats DKP and you can't argue earnt/not earns on a non DKP system because the raid got there and therefore they earn the chance to roll.

With one winning the cloak he would have been removed from the argument at least.

It also encourages you to take Major upgrades over minor upgrades until you run out of majors.

Don't feel bad just state that the officers will look at the loot rules to try and releve the confusion and explain that as a NON DKP guild you believe in the share/use loot system and that Earning an item is the same as seeing the loot boxes.

06-16-2008, 03:22 PM
My guild does basically: I roll per night, unless either all members of that class (tank / healer / melee dps / range dps) have won something, or there are no other rollers for an item.

If you had no stated loot rules going into the raid, then you did the right thing. But you really need to establish some loot rules going forward -- particularly if you're using non-guildies to supplement your raid.

06-17-2008, 04:39 AM
You made the right decision by giving the roll winner the item. I say this because there were no stated rolling guidelines set for rolling/winning multiple items since you were grouping as a pug. You will find that the fair and correct decision is not always going to be the most popular option.

06-17-2008, 05:12 AM
It's 10 people. Why would a group need so many rules in Karazhan? If 10 people can't get along enough to be fair about loot without rules, then they shouldn't be raiding together.

Yes you did the right thing. I means it's KARAZHAN! There is no DKP. There is no "paying dues." Unless of course you want to say something up front about it. In which case the only puggers you'll get are people with 2 complete sets and just want badges.

My guild has to occasionally PUG spots for Karazhan runs and I stick up for the puggers. Exactly the same rights as guildies.

In the course of 13 (err. . . 12) bosses I don't think it's inconceivable for someone to get 2 epic upgrades. Grats to them! I think by the third one maybe be a little more. . . "you sure no one else needs it?"

Anyways you made the right decision.

06-17-2008, 07:52 AM
you should feel bad

06-17-2008, 09:55 AM
The "its just Karahzan" argument holds no water. Different people play the game at different paces. What may be trivial content for some is important for others. At one point and time, Kara was a big deal to everyone.

That said, that's a harsh position to be in. The mage got the cloak and should have been satisfied with that and passed on the hat. That's in a perfect world dealing with completely rational and thoughtful people. It would be best to establish some ground rules on loot to begin with but realize not everything works out and you will still need to make some tough calls as a raid leader. Reserve yourself this power in what ever rules you make.

What if the mage was given the option to roll on the cloak OR the helm? And what if the lock already had the cloak? Well, roll on the helm and pick up the cloak by default, right? That kinda things happens in every loot system.

The best outcome would be for each player to get an upgrade item so I would suggest going with a "1 upgrade roll" rule.

06-17-2008, 04:16 PM
perhaps I was a bit ignorant not stating rules in the beginning, but me personally I haven't ran Karazhan in a while due to me being geared for higher content, so I paid it no due, which was a bad mistake to make.

It was only after the Mage won the cloak, and wanted to roll for the helm too that I thought about looting rules, most of the stuff dropped was DE'd, so it hadn't really caused me any fuss earlier.

We would use DKP, but it was something we were going to get into once we hit the 25man mark.

06-18-2008, 05:26 AM
The "its just Karahzan" argument holds no water. Different people play the game at different paces. What may be trivial content for some is important for others. At one point and time, Kara was a big deal to everyone.

"It's just Karazhan" refers to the loot, not the content.

06-18-2008, 05:27 AM
They're paying dues, just like you paid dues the first few times you went in there.

This is why I gave up on this game. "It's only UBRS." "It's only Kara." Feh.

First--why are you on this forum if you don't play the game? Doesn't make much sense.

Second--so your assertion is no one should get loot until they've paid dues?

06-18-2008, 05:46 AM
You probably shoulda given the hat to the warlock, but it's not a huge deal, she can get it next time, or get a different hat (Spellstrike for example, easily crafted).

06-18-2008, 09:22 AM
Kara broke many guilds when it was released, remember. People weren't set up to deal with 10man loot issues, for some reason.

My story for example: My old guild had only about 5 healers at that time, and the MT would take 4 of them. So the rest of us waited patiently for invites... When I finally got a seat, I lost every random roll to the same guy over & over. After a couple weeks of this, when I tried to bring that up, they said not to QQ, because ... hey, he was there every night and did better dps than me! Umm, yes sure he did, he won ALL the drops! All this might still have been ok, if people hadn't reverted to saying QQ, for suggesting that random might not be best. You will avoid a huge pile of issues by implementing any kind of system, even if that system is very simple, like 1 win per person per night, or loot council, or whatever. Anything's better than random, if people are in there for gear they actually need.

Don't worry about the past - fix it, and give your warlock a solution, as a gift that's worth more than the loot he might have won.

06-18-2008, 10:38 AM
It's not clear from the original post, but did you try asking the mage whether he would willingly pass, knowing he already got one piece? Even if you didn't state a one person/one gear rule at the beginning, you only state that you had a /o conversation about it. Communication is key in this game, and in a ten man raid, it's a good opportunity to get people's opinion, much more so than in a 25'er.

Also, one thing we've done in the past is use the /readycheck feature as a "yea/nay" voting system. 'If you want to do Nightbane now, click Ready; if you want to do it later, click Not Ready'. Not everybody likes officers making decisions all the time, and throwing in a bit of democracy makes everybody feel like they can have a say and makes the officers look like they're attentive to their raid's opinions.

06-18-2008, 02:28 PM
I think you probably know this now but its much much better to let people know (yourself included) what is going to be happening with loot before items drop.

Trying to come up with rules or changing them as you are looking at the item after downing a boss is a recipe for disaster unfortunately.

Write off the item (it will drop again anyway), learn from the experiance and you shouldnt have the same issue again.

07-04-2008, 10:15 AM

One unfortunate part to leading a raid is that we all have, or will at some point, have to make a decision that will make someone mad. Sometimes you make the right call and sometimes you don't, all we can do is reflect back on the situation and use that experience to influence our future ones.

As for my view on this event, I strongly feel at this point in the game "Loot rules" do not need to be explained. The mage should already know that taking the cloak meant he was ineligible for the helm. This is just a common practice of courtesy to the rest of your team. Being that this mage did not want to take it upon himself to be fair, and also being that my opinion that having both items is unfair, the responsibility to make sure everyone received the loot they deserved would fall on me to make the decision to tell him no on the helm.

In my own guild we use a zero-sum DKP system, but as you can read in other posts, this system has its flaws. All systems are as flawed as the people that abuse them. And when the time comes that someone does try to abuse the system we trust our leaders to make a call that is fair. So ask yourself, was your call fair. I can not tell you the answer to this as I was not there to see the actual events to unfold. If you think they were, then no big deal. But if you feel you made an error, maybe apoligize to the warlock and assure him that you will try to make better decisions in the future.

07-04-2008, 10:46 AM
We started Karazhan early and on some point were pretty good geared and ready to move on to 25 men content.
But ofcourse didn't have the people.

So I've lead a lot of raids in Karazhan gearing people up. Raid often consisting half of experienced people and half quite new.

At the beginning of the run I would always state the lootrules.
a) We roll for items, mainspec before offspec ofcourse.
b) I'm the evil masterlooter and may decide to ignore rolls.

Why, rolling might seem fair but it often turns out not to be. "In the end it evens out" people say. But that is not the case. What happens with rolling is this: few people get like 5 items others on average 2-3 and some will get nothing if you keep rolling. That doesn't seem fair to me. So if someone would get some items in a run and someone else would be unlucky I wouldn't have a problem giving it to the unlucky person.

Also biggest upgrade: item should go to the person who it is the biggest upgrade for? Nope, that's not fair either, because you forget that it's only the 2nd time in kara for the person who gets that big of an upgrade and didn't do the hard work of paying the wipe-gold to get the instance on farm so the mindblade didn't go to the mage but to the lock, for who it was not so big of an upgrade but he was there for the past 20 runs trying to get a chance for dropping.

I used this exact line on vent: "I'm the big bad masterlooter." and then explained a bit what that was. I was most popular for raiding kara, people always wanted to be in my groups and I got a lot of whispers what fun of a time they had.
People knew I was fair and knew I wouldn't use it to my own advantage.

07-04-2008, 07:33 PM
If I were you, I'd make a macro of loot rules and spam it at the start of raid and after each boss kill again before loot is distributed.

Also, not taking PUG people will help, if you are able to get a full guild group together. (I don't know what your guild makeup is, but if you are having trouble filling Kara raids and aren't in 25 man content yet, you may wan to just consider recruiting.)

IMO, should be one drop per person, mains before alts, mainspecs before offspecs if you are going to take nonguildies on your runs.