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View Full Version : DW Fury AP and Crit (T5ish level gear) question



GarrettJaxx
06-13-2008, 08:28 AM
The guide's clearly note that the balance between AP and Crit is a tentative one. Trinkets and procs and bears O MY!

However, when specced fury (ignore armory today pls) and with my badge fists, I am, unbuffed, at 30.5% crit and 1927 AP. Hit's at 170ish. I had thought this was a nice place to be until I was able to upgrade my crappy badge shoulders and the lootreaver helm to a T4> meta helm (Skyfire burnin' a whole in my pocket).

I've felt though, lately, that I'm hittin' like a wet noodle.* I have a guildie who's a terriffic fury warrior, and he outdps'es me pretty consistently with 2010ish AP and only 26% unbuffed crit. It's true we both have goose on our offhands, btw. I know it's not a strict comparison here, he could just be better at his rotation, or our gear could have other aspects that I'm not considering (his armor pen, etc.).

I really am looking though, at this Crit and AP comparison. Nowhere have I ever heard "get to 2k AP unbuffed before you care too much about Crit", it's always been the other way around.

Any thoughts on this? Could it be that the AP benefit to high-dps melee and Bloodthirst/WW hits out-weighs the crit benes, when you know that you're often raid-buffed for crit, too?

Really curious if anyone believe the opposite of the norm. I could conceivable give up some crit gems for Strength.

*source: Corbusier, lol

loquatious
06-13-2008, 08:58 AM
The standard recomendation is to gem for STR until your AP is really high

I dont think 2k is the transition point either.

Tatt
06-13-2008, 12:45 PM
Someone posted once how much down time you will have off of flurry the lower your crit is, after seeing it I have kept 30% or better without fail. I would only drop it if you can guarantee that raid buffs will get you to the 30% without fail. Also gear wise look to see how much of his gear has procs to help him. Without even self buffs I have over 1000 AP of procs that can trigger and skyrocket my dps, even though my stats are almost even with yours regularly (only 1899 AP).

shiz98
06-13-2008, 02:05 PM
The only way to guarantee 100% flurry uptime is to have 100% crit. That being said, having around 30% keeps it up fairly well.

If you factor out deep wounds/flurry, crit is less damage than the equivalent AP points - therefore, if you're critting enough to have acceptable Flurry uptime (deep wounds isn't worth stacking crit for as Fury), AP will give more DPS.

I'd wager that his better DPS is more of a skill/lag/other stats thing though - 80 AP vs 4% crit shouldn't have a large gap.

Tatt
06-13-2008, 02:12 PM
Checked your armory, you are not wearing a helm to let you equip a meta, not sure how much the 3% crit damage meta is hurting you either.

GarrettJaxx
06-14-2008, 04:27 PM
Checked your armory, you are not wearing a helm to let you equip a meta, not sure how much the 3% crit damage meta is hurting you either.
As i ntoed above:
I had thought this was a nice place to be until I was able to upgrade my crappy badge shoulders and the lootreaver helm to a T4> meta helm (Skyfire burnin' a whole in my pocket).

Regardless - I re-gemmed to 2020 unbuffed AP and 28.4% unbuffed crit and I am enjoying quite an improvement in DPS.

Tatt
06-16-2008, 01:26 PM
WTB your gear, I wish I could get an extra 100 hp from swapping gems :(

fastidius
06-16-2008, 03:40 PM
ok a few things that you may be overlooking.


ArP is worth losing crit for if you can get enough of it especially if you can put a feral druid in your group.

Trinkets, Haste trinks like DST and Abacus can help alleviate lower crit rates by increasing swing rates.....i lost some crit for arp and added abacus into my trash gear so i can keep flurry up more.

Also macroing trinkets to things like BT may be a boost if you don't already. an unclicked trinket is DPS lost.

He may just be better at DPS rotations/have better rage generation. Faster weapons on exe spam Vs Lazy Executing with 2.5 Weapons. Not hard to out DPS someone when you attack more in execute range.

My stats are very similar... 2K/26.5 Crit/44-17 with a meta and ill push the 800 DPS area on trash, Aran im over 1100DPS with the ArP effects. I do run with a pally for salv, A Feral and hunter in my group for crit bonuses so raid buffed im actually at

2600+Rampage/Trinks, 31+% and about 400 ArP with executioner on top ( i Dual Weild Executioner most of the time over Mongoose but only because i swapped my weapons around and may want to rechant it sometime.

Davi
06-16-2008, 03:50 PM
Keep in mind that flurry, drums, passive haste, mongoose, etc. all reduce your attack speed down pretty close to gcd + lag. Your fast weapons are going to need stats just about equal to your normal weaps to be worth using.

GarrettJaxx
06-16-2008, 04:55 PM
ArP is worth losing crit for if you can get enough of it especially if you can put a feral druid in your group.
First, thanks for the reply. But I sort of disagree with alot you're stating. I will say that I have seen terriffic output of recent note in both Kara and ZA, looking forward to our 25 man raid this week. Boosted to, as I think I note above, 2020 AP, 28.4% crit, 170 hit, about 580 strength unbuffed. Regardless - I sort of disagree about ArP - I currently have about 436 ArP and while I think it's a great stat, not sure my other stats are where they need to be for it to truly make a diff atm. Having said as much - I don't believe losing more crit for ArP makes any sense. I'd rather see crit at 30% unbuffed and have half my ArP. Executioner on main hand procs plenty, and on raid bosses this helps overall, but it's not the difference in effective DPS until I get more T6 level gear, sitting with 3k AP in raid buffs consistently (currently around 2700/2900 or so in raid.


Trinkets, Haste trinks like DST and Abacus can help alleviate lower crit rates by increasing swing rates.....i lost some crit for arp and added abacus into my trash gear so i can keep flurry up more. Interesting notion to add Abacus in trash gear, but overall, I'd be hard pressed to give up the DPS that Shard of Contempt and Bloodlust Brooch currently offer me. The decrease in DPS from Bloodthirst alone when those proc and are activated would be perilous, I think (talking about 580 AP when adding proc of SoC with trink usage of BL Brooch, as well it's passive AP of 72).


Also macroing trinkets to things like BT may be a boost if you don't already. an unclicked trinket is DPS lost.
Agreed but I don't take well to macros linked to trinks. I don't feel that offers enough variety in what I follow a trinket pop with. For instance, if trink is on cooldown and a boss is at 21%, I can pop the trink, and execute with a fairly full rage bar, which I would lose if I dumped a BT automatically when I proc the trink. Certainly I could have TWO buttons for the Trink (one slaved, one not) but that's creating complexity in my UI. Diff't strokes for diff't pwners I guess!


2600+Rampage/Trinks, 31+% and about 400 ArP with executioner on top ( i Dual Weild Executioner most of the time over Mongoose but only because i swapped my weapons around and may want to rechant it sometime. Ya I'm not a fan of DW Executioner, I think that's truly gimping the crit and haste that can come from 'Goose.

But thanks for the reply, really, and happy huntin'!

Kazeyonoma
06-16-2008, 05:12 PM
Yeh... ArP although strong because of how it scales, should only take a backseat to STR and Crit after you can reliably keep Flurry going, AND have over i think 3000 buffed AP? (At which point crit also overtakes STR so..... crit and ArP both scale at the same points it seems, so why sack one for the other? it's like hurting to gain the same).

Also, DW exec is silly, I think it's been tested that MH Exec, and OH Goose is the best pairing one can achieve once you reach minimal stats.

Ukyo
06-17-2008, 04:03 AM
DW exec supposedly keeps the proc constant, though in the end is all about your luck on the procs. The safest way to go is Exe/Goose, but in the end, is all about personal choices =D

Corbusier
06-17-2008, 07:23 AM
DW exec supposedly keeps the proc constant, though in the end is all about your luck on the procs. The safest way to go is Exe/Goose, but in the end, is all about personal choices =D
Dual exectuioner DOES keep the proc more constant, but it's hardly a personal choice when one enchant does mathematically (and this is reflected in practice) more DPS.

The argument against dual executioner is that once you factor in the overlaps, the value is reduced by at least 40%. I'll take Mongoose over 6/10 of an Executioner.

Kream
06-17-2008, 09:15 AM
Yeh... ArP although strong because of how it scales, should only take a backseat to STR and Crit after you can reliably keep Flurry going, AND have over i think 3000 buffed AP? (At which point crit also overtakes STR so..... crit and ArP both scale at the same points it seems, so why sack one for the other? it's like hurting to gain the same).

Why sack crit for ArPen?
I sack crit for ArP because ArP has increasing returns whereas crit has decreasing returns. Current itemization frequently makes me chose between crit and ArP, I chose the item with better overall stats and the item with ArP if they are similar.

Kazeyonoma
06-17-2008, 09:23 AM
Crit doesn't have decreasing returns though, If you plug in 3k or 4k AP buffed into dps excel sheets or even on maxdps.com you'll find that crit and ArP overtake str. I'm positive that the more ArP you get the higher the gains of course but if you are getting an upgrade that has crit but no ArP, that doesn't mean you shouldn't take it just because you're losing some ArP. Crit and ArP are both equally strong at higher levels of AP, ArP scales faster but has limited itemization. I agree though that I like stacking ArP over crit once I reach favorable amounts. In my PvE MS set, i have over 600 unproc'd ArP but still over 31% crit and 1900 unbuffed AP. I could swap some of the ArP out and get my crit higher but I feel I keep flurry up enough that I enjoy the overall benefit of ArP more.

Kream
06-17-2008, 09:42 AM
Crit doesn't have decreasing returns though, If you plug in 3k or 4k AP buffed into dps excel sheets or even on maxdps.com you'll find that crit and ArP overtake str. I'm positive that the more ArP you get the higher the gains of course but if you are getting an upgrade that has crit but no ArP, that doesn't mean you shouldn't take it just because you're losing some ArP. Crit and ArP are both equally strong at higher levels of AP, ArP scales faster but has limited itemization. I agree though that I like stacking ArP over crit once I reach favorable amounts. In my PvE MS set, i have over 600 unproc'd ArP but still over 31% crit and 1900 unbuffed AP. I could swap some of the ArP out and get my crit higher but I feel I keep flurry up enough that I enjoy the overall benefit of ArP more.

Crit does have decreasing returns. From the EJ spreadsheet
20% = 78.5% flurry uptime
25% = 84.2% (+5.7)
30% = 88.8% (+4.6)
35% = 92.3% (+3.5)

Let me rephrase it.. crit doesn't stack with itself. ArPen does stack with itself. So if you can get a lot of either, I chose ArPen.

Kazeyonoma
06-17-2008, 09:45 AM
true true, for the effect of keeping flurry up crit does have decreasing returns, and yes that is the primary focus of crit, to keep flurry up, but critting also ups your DPS, and after a level of AP, critting more, just like ignoring more armor, will cause your dps to increase MORE than AP gains. That's what I was trying to get across.

shiz98
06-17-2008, 04:46 PM
The key thing to remember is that the different stats work with each other in a tiered sort of way:

AP is the "base stat"
Crit modifies the damage from AP
ArP modifies the damage from AP and crit
Hit modifies everything

So naturally, if you have a high amount of AP, the extra damage from crit rating will grow. Similarly, the damage boost from ArP grows as your crit/AP increases.

Stregga
06-18-2008, 08:43 AM
here is my 2cp Personall I love armor pen I have 1 piece T6 and enjoy 1095 armor pen raid buffed I have ~30% crit, and last night pulled 2300 dps on shade of akama. After 30% raid buffed it really scales better to have more AP, or armor pen.

Also things to think about are the synergy bonuses for group comp is the other warrior in the same group in he raid as you, do you both have a good enh shammie with lots of crits (go go windfury and bonus AP from them criting).

Keep in mind also that when fully raid buffed you may be able to BT crit harder than Execute, so be mindfull to execute when over say 60 rage and keep poping BT every cooldawn

GarrettJaxx
06-18-2008, 08:53 AM
Dual exectuioner DOES keep the proc more constant, but it's hardly a personal choice when one enchant does mathematically (and this is reflected in practice) more DPS.

The argument against dual executioner is that once you factor in the overlaps, the value is reduced by at least 40%. I'll take Mongoose over 6/10 of an Executioner.
This. Also, remember, I am at a t5ish level of gear. At this point crit is undeniably more important to my DPS than ArP, no matter how you slice it. Mongoose improves that crit and the speed at which it pumps my DPS and rage generation. Hands down.

shiz98
06-18-2008, 04:02 PM
Depends. I was roughly at your gear level (less AP, more crit) when my guild was entering Hyjal. For DKP reasons, I had to gear in a non-standard way and ended up rolling with about 34% crit in Zerker stance (Axe spec warrior), 1600 AP, and 920 ArP. I ended up dropping a solid 3% crit and about 50 AP for that ArP, but the result was actually pretty good. I was able to maintain 900-1k DPS, IIRC. This number obviously drops on bosses that have 7200 armor, but it's definitely a great stat all around, any way you want to cut it.

Edit: Feel I should point out that I'm not disagreeing with the Executioner comments - this post is in response to "Crit being more important than Arp"

Corbusier
06-18-2008, 09:45 PM
here is my 2cp Personall I love armor pen I have 1 piece T6 and enjoy 1095 armor pen raid buffed I have ~30% crit, and last night pulled 2300 dps on shade of akama.
Akama is possibly the worst fight in the game to evaluate your DPS. Low armor, no threat, short fight so reck is up a disproportionate amount...

Kream
06-19-2008, 01:46 AM
The key thing to remember is that the different stats work with each other in a tiered sort of way:

AP is the "base stat"
Crit modifies the damage from AP
ArP modifies the damage from AP and crit
Hit modifies everything

So naturally, if you have a high amount of AP, the extra damage from crit rating will grow. Similarly, the damage boost from ArP grows as your crit/AP increases.

Actually they don't work in a tiered system. The gains you get from ArP scale just as well with crit (both work to multiply your overall damage).

Edit: See my post below for the math that used to be in this thread regarding crit vs ArP using item budget values to compare equal amounts.

Korlong
06-19-2008, 07:21 AM
There are no diminishing returns on critical strike. Each point of critical strike rating increases the amount of damage you do by a fixed percentage of your base DPS.

Dual executioner is mathematically better than dual mongoose. Averaged, the offhand executioner enchant works out to around a 0.8% OVERALL dps increase, which is marginally worse than mongoose, but averaging is grossly unfair to executioner (and beneficial to mongoose). Instead of ~126 ArP averaged, you have to think of it as 860 ArP 15% of the time, which is much better.

At the very worst, dual executioner is just as good as offhanding mongoose.

Kream
06-19-2008, 09:40 AM
There are no diminishing returns on critical strike. Each point of critical strike rating increases the amount of damage you do by a fixed percentage of your base DPS.

I just proved that it does have diminishing returns above...

Korlong
06-19-2008, 10:52 AM
I just proved that it does have diminishing returns above...

Insofar as flurry up time goes, yes. I prefer to think of flurry as an ancillary benefit.

Tatt
06-19-2008, 11:29 AM
If you consider it ancillary, why get the talent? What talent would you take instead of flurry that would do more dps?

Corbusier
06-19-2008, 11:54 AM
Insofar as flurry up time goes, yes. I prefer to think of flurry as an ancillary benefit.
Flurry is pretty freaking important for DPS, and thusly an important factor in determining the value of crit.

Averaged, the offhand executioner enchant works out to around a 0.8% OVERALL dps increase, which is marginally worse than mongoose, but averaging is grossly unfair to executioner (and beneficial to mongoose). Instead of ~126 ArP averaged, you have to think of it as 860 ArP 15% of the time, which is much better.
That doesn't make any sense.

Korlong
06-19-2008, 01:38 PM
Assuming an uptime of 40% for offhand mongoose (and 100% flurry uptime in the interest of simplicity and fairness), you get 0.834 crits a minute attributable to mongoose. This is an actually meaningful representation of mongoose's "usefulness".

This doesn't work for executioner. Instead, you have to look at the 15% uptime attributable to the offhand, and note it as 9 seconds a minute of 860 armor penetration. (which off the cuff I believe to be around an 8% damage increase at ArP cap?).

0.834 of a crit (could be anything, mainhand, offhand, bloodthirst, whirlwind)
vs.
9 seconds of 860 armor penetration

That is the comparison.

Here we can break out the napkin math, and observe that based on the 8% number I pulled out of my ass, an offhand executioner enchant is worth:
720 damage a minute @ 1000 dps
900 damage a minute @ 1250 dps
1080 damage a minute @ 1500 dps
1260 damage a minute @ 1750 dps
1440 damage a minute @ 2000 dps
1620 damage a minute @ 2250 dps
1800 damage a minute @ 2500 dps

Now compare that with the CRITICAL STRIKE DAMAGE BONUS (not the whole crit) of 0.834 of a crit. This is hard to do, as you have to consider different attack types and their density, but you can probably napkin-math it in your head. For me it probably comes out around 1000 damage (the offhand drags it down).

Here is the math for calculating crits a minute attributable to mongoose:
(.4*60/15)*(1-.96^((15/(60/((60 / 2.8) * 1.25))) + (15/(60/((60 / 2.6) * 1.25))) + 15/8 + 15/6))
2.8 is main hand speed
2.6 is offhand speed
the last part is BT/WW cooldowns (I have 2/2 imp WW).

This number goes up as your weapon speed decreases, but the value of the crit that you get decreases.

Kream
06-19-2008, 06:54 PM
This is a comparison of Crit to ArP based on 1.359% crit = 200 ArP (item budget value) at various levels of Crit and ArP.



Crit% DPS increase from adding 1.359% crit
25.000%
26.359% 1.605%
27.718% 1.585%
29.077% 1.567%
30.436% 1.550%
31.795% 1.534%
33.154% 1.519%
34.513% 1.505%
35.872% 1.492%
37.231% 1.480%
38.590% 1.468%
39.949% 1.458%
41.308% 1.448%
42.667% 1.440%
44.026% 1.431%
45.385% 1.424%
46.744% 1.417%
48.103% 1.411%




Reference Armor DPS increase from adding 200 ArP
VR 8800
8600 1.04%
8400 1.05%
8200 1.07%
8000 1.08%
7800 1.09%
BT 7600 1.10%
7400 1.11%
7200 1.13%
7000 1.14%
6800 1.15%
6600 1.17%
6400 1.18%
MH 6200 1.19%
6000 1.21%
5800 1.22%
5600 1.24%
5400 1.25%
5200 1.27%
BT/SA 5000 1.29%
4800 1.30%
4600 1.32%
4400 1.34%
4200 1.36%
4000 1.37%
3800 1.39%
BT/SA+ MH/SA 3600 1.41%
3400 1.43%
BT/EA+ 3200 1.45%
3000 1.48%
BT/SA+/Ex 2800 1.50%
2600 1.52%
BT/EA+/Ex 2400 1.54%
MH/SA+ 2200 1.57%
2000 1.59%
MH/EA+ 1800 1.62%
1600 1.65%
MH/SA+/Ex 1400 1.67%
1200 1.70%
1000 1.73%
MH/EA+/Ex 800 1.76%
600 1.79%
400 1.83%
200 1.86%
0 1.89%



Abbreviations:
VR = Void Reaver, no armor reducing effects
BT = Most Black Temple bosses, no armor reducing effects
MH = Mount Hyjal bosses, no armor reducing effects
SA = Sunder Armor
SA+ = SA/CoR/FF
EA = Expose Armor (talented)
EA+ = EA/CoR/FF
Ex = Executioner Proc

Formulas used:

Attacks per Flurry Cycle
I used an average weapon delay of 2.0 (flurried badge fists) and a BTx3/WWx2 cycle to calculate the ratio of attacks to autoattack swings. Cycle length = 18 secs, 18 white swings, 7 yellow attacks. HS isn't factored in since it consumes a flurry charge just like a white swing.
Yellow attacks/Autoattack swing = 7/18 = .39
Yellow attacks per flurry cycle = .39 * 4 = 1.56 (sync'd weapons)
All attacks per flurry cycle = 5.56, rounded down to 5.5

At this point I did a reality check comparing the ratio of yellow attacks to white swings (including misses, dodges, HS) from a WWS of a stationary fight. I did the same math with actual numbers and came up with 5.6 attacks/flurry cycle. I actually was using non-sync'd weapons for the fight, so 5.5 attacks/flurry cycle seems very reasonable.

Flurry uptime
1 - (1 - c)^5.5
c = crit rate

Flurry DPS increase
Since the haste from flurry doesn't affect your damage from instants, I used 50% for the amount of your DPS affected by flurry haste. Flurry haste is 25% so I used Flurry uptime x .5 x .25 to figure out the net effect on DPS (Please check my math on this!)

DPS increase from crit
1.359% + Flurry DPS increase over the previous value

Damage Reduction from Armor
Armor/(Armor+10557.5)
The accepted formula for DR to a level 70 attacker.

% of damage not mitigated by armor
1 - DR

DPS increase from ArP
d1 = % of damage not mitigated by armor at previous tier
d2 = % of damage not mitigated by armor at current tier

d2/d1 - 1

Reality check: I bounced it against the boss armor values thread at EJ and got consistent results.

Kazeyonoma
06-20-2008, 01:43 AM
So, assuming average warrior crit at about 35% raid buffed. that means Crit still out does ArP unless you can reduce the bosses armor below 2800? O_o.

GarrettJaxx
06-22-2008, 07:04 AM
/eats popcorn

Kream
06-26-2008, 05:36 PM
So, assuming average warrior crit at about 35% raid buffed. that means Crit still out does ArP unless you can reduce the bosses armor below 2800? O_o.

That's one way to look at it.

I'm sitting at about 600 armor pen right now. If I'm working on a MH/SA+ mob an additional 200 ArP gives me 1.67% more DPS. To match the damage with an equal amount of crit I'd have to be below 25% crit. If I look at a BT/SA+ mob, its 1.50% and my crit would need to be under 34%. Of course that doesn't factor in Executioner, which brings it back towards ArP (~32% w/ Exec)

I guess the point is that its more of a sliding scale and the mobs you are fighting have a huge impact on the value of Crit vs ArP

shiz98
06-26-2008, 06:44 PM
I haven't gone over your math closely, but it seems to me that you're interpreting the effect of crit incorrectly.

A 1.359% increase in crit is not a 1.359% increase in DPS, even if you factor out flurry. A 1.359% increase in crit is a 1.359% (well, a bit higher - need to factor Impale in) increase to DPS ignoring the effect of any other crit.

Example: You're at 25% crit. To find out how much extra damage 1.359% more crit gives, you first subtract the effect 25% crit has on your DPS, and then take 1.359% of the result. In other words, crit benefits have to be evaluated as if you have no crit. It doesn't stack with itself.