View Full Version : Advice for a confused tank.
06-11-2008, 01:14 PM
See me as I am here: (the riding crop is really Moroes' Pocket Watch)
The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Garona&n=Stubbi)
I have various pieces of armor from kara (gloves/belt) that give me far more +block, +avoidance at the cost of lower armor/stamina.
Right now working towards the 35 badge cloak. Still waiting to see some shoulders drop from Kara or Gruul.
I'd love some advice on what to do with my gem slots, I see lots of posts about stamina at all costs, just not sure I understand the reasoning. I have read many threads here & over at Elitist's.
I also have the Sun Eater with Mongoose enchant (not shown here) as well as Kings Defender with Executioner (not real sure I was given good advice to remove Mongoose).
I would love some advice from the experts here on what to do next. Our guild is just now starting Gruul weekly on a reliable basis.
I can mess around with rings/neck/trinkets/armor to get up to a 81/102.5 when things proc, but I do so at the cost of armor/stamina. As I understand the game mechanics, I end up with 2 results. Gimped rage production & death by unlucky dice.
Am I overgeared, undergeared, just plain wrong geared or what? :confused:
06-11-2008, 01:19 PM
Moved to Armory Suggestions.
06-11-2008, 02:47 PM
I can't see you on Armory at the moment, not loading your dude. Thus I can't see your %'s or your HP/Armor.
Are you main tanking Gruul? Off tanking? Tanking an add for HKM and DPSing Gruul?
The choice of chants (Mongoose for Sun Eater, Execution for KD) is pretty standard. Normally it assumes you're using Sun Eater when you need the dodge (the latent dodge from the weapon and the proc from Mongoose) and KD for threat or general purpose use.
You're not overgeared, but you're not undergeared either really. My personal preference is EH. I would regem everything for stamina while I was progressing into new content.
There's plenty of research and much smarter and better tanks that have put forth treatises on this topic, many are found right here on this site. If you've read EJ and other stuff, either you don't believe in EH theory (some/many don't) or you don't understand the argument being made (I'm not an expert on it). To summarize EH (Armor and stamina) versus avoidance (disclosure: I believe in EH for progression), the goal in progression is to have enough stamina to take a bad string of hits and survive. Stacking stamina gives everyone more breathing room to operate. If you graph the fight, you will take more damage, but it will be taken fairly consistently. The danger with going avoidance early is you will get spiked with a bad string and not have enough stamina to stay alive. After you move something to farm, you can start to swap in avoidance. This is done because you've basically proven your EH is sufficient, the aviodance takes some pressure off the healers. Against Gruul, you're taking straight up physical damage, so stamina and armor into the later growths is going to keep you up if you get a bad string.
Slikk's Cloak is awesome. The new 2.4 belt (Girdle of the Fearless) blows away both the 2.3 belt and Moroes belt, I defintiely suggest picking that up sooner rather than later. Try to farm H MgT for the Commendation and put in place of the Figurine, massive stamina and the proc would be great for you in Gruuls.
06-11-2008, 03:34 PM
Annoying when armory is broken ...
Thanks for the input. I read as much as I could absorb about Effective Health. Pretty serious stuff. Glad there are people with brains who like this game enough to figure out the science behind it, just not so sure I can translate the examples to my gear well enough to make semi-educated choices.
I've gotten the SSO Legs & Belt already, just couldn't *not* get items that had that kind of weapon exp on them. Same with the badge Bracers. The Cloak looked to be the next obvious choice as it will be with me *forever* based on my progression speed.
I was OT for Gruul, didn't even reach for my LS key lol. Visited ZA and dealt with the bear form of the first boss. Not enough DPS / coordination for the others yet.
My concern really goes down the *gee I seem to have very low avoidance* when I look at other people. I am in the 45% miss/dodge/parry range. That is with some dodge/defense gems. I guess I am afraid to take out those gems for stam as it will drop that 45% into the < 40% range. Is the kind of a minimum avoidance you want to maintain as part of the great EH discussion?
06-12-2008, 07:31 AM
Armory finally came back up so I could see your gear. All your numbers look fine. Gemming for EH, my defensive numbers were lower than you in parry and block, my dodge was about where you are. What's amazing is your HP and armor are good for what you're doing so I can offer almost nothing to help you other than stay the course.
I can understand gemming so much for defensive stats because your chestpiece offers you nothing in that regard, but is giving you massive stamina. I personally had no block rating at all, even into ZA. The amount blocked is trivial against the damage being done, the only plus is a blocked attack can't crush. But in heroics and some bosses in ZA, that wasn't as issue. And for bosses that can crush (Prince of course), you'll be putting up Shield Block as fast as possible and trying to jack your dodge through the roof to keep the charges active. I tanked him last week with about 27% (basically I put on anything I had with dodge rating) and the fight was trivial.
That's all a longwinded way of saying I think you're doing fine. As you add some more gear with more defensive stats (Slikk's, T4 shoulders, etc), I would begin to trade out the defense gems for +12 stam gems. Get some food and consumables for Gruul/Mag to jack your stamina up and you'll be plenty fine with all the raid buffs you'll get.
06-12-2008, 08:13 AM
Thanks for the reasurances. I cap out at around 19.5k health with food/pot/buffs for Gruul visits. Sometimes it is tough to follow the right path when surrounded by those who do not.
06-12-2008, 10:07 AM
I actually have less avoidance than you do and have not had an issue in T5 raids. Please note that I do have more armor and health and approach 22k health fully raid buffed. I also just main-tanked a full ZA clear in essential the gear I have on in armory. We did two timers and wiped once on dragonhawk and once on hex lord. I might change a trinket here or there depending on the boss. More effective health will certianly give your healers more room to play with assuming you are doing your job properly (shield block, tclap, demo shout).
What it comes down to is that healers, tanks and dps are now over-geared for everything short of ZA and Sunwell. So if tanks simply bulk up on effective health, then you overgeared healers with bigger heals and larger mana-pools can easily ride out a damage spike here and there. The flip-side of overgearing is that you need to do as much as you can to improve your TPS. One of the main things that threat caps a warrior is his weapon. Find a way to upgrade yours. You are using a pre-S1 weapon to generate threat with compared to S3+ geared DPSers. That puts you and the raid at a disadvantage. If you can obtain a better threat weapon, consider switching your BS specialty and make Blazefury. Check Berg's for ideas on where you might be able to get alternatives if you don't like that idea.
06-12-2008, 12:56 PM
I actually have Fireguard (1st step of the upgrade path) sitting in the bank. I was swordsmith, but switched in favour of getting the chest piece from armorsmith. Once i get a replacement chest of decent quality, I am free to switch back & upgrade it to Blazefury.
I don't see any other options short of ZA available, am I missing something obvious? I was rather surprised when looking through the Sunwell badge vendor that they didn't add a tanking weapon.
06-12-2008, 01:46 PM
For chests, Chestplate of Stoicism is awesome. IMO,it beats the pants off the T4 chest and in some ways is better than T5.
The most common choices for entry and mid-progression tank weapons you'll usually see are:
Sun Eater (H Mech)
King's Defender (Kara - Chess Event)
Mallet of Tides (SSC - Lurker)
Cleaver of the Unforgiving (ZA - Zul'jin)
There's others after ZA out of Hyjal and BT, but for getting going into tanking, most people will get Sun Eater first or concurrently with getting KD and then it depends on your guild what happens next. Check out Berg's rankings.
06-12-2008, 04:52 PM
The badge weapons are intended to promote rarely used off-specs so your not going to find a tanking weapon in there. Better threat weapons are hard to find. As mentioned before Mallet of the Tides and Cleaver of the Unforgiving. Here are a few others prior to T6:
Quickening Blade of the Prince
I'd say there are easier chests to get a hold of. Blazefury is to hard to pass up for me at this point.
Berg's list has a complete list of what and where.