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Kream
05-23-2008, 10:09 AM
So I'm raiding MH/BT right now with all 3 specs (PvE Arms, Fury, Prot). I respec to hit whatever the raid needs for the night and I need to push my fury and arms DPS higher. I was going to list all my questions, but they tend to be long.

Edit: This might be easier with my armory The World of Warcraft Armory (http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Gul%27dan&n=Kream)

Part 1: Solved - Gear for the long term while keeping an eye on drops you may get in the near future.
I'm going to describe my gearing methodology because this is the best I've come up with. Previously I've been gemming with almost all +str to bring my AP up to a decent range, but I've come up with a new (and hopefully better) idea. I'll always need str, I can't gem for ArPen, but I can gem for crit or hit to balance gear and easily swap gems to get to where I need. So basically I'm trying to pick upgrades with high str/ArPen as the primary stat as well as a decent amount of hit/crit/haste/agi to go with it. I'm generally gearing around haste but it does have value to my DPS.

For instance I'm going to be upgrading my shoulders. I'm looking at the item budget devoted towards stats (counting agi as 1/2 and counting socket bonuses if it doesn't have a blue socket) The choices?
(primary)/(socket)/(secondary)
Warbringer Shoulderplates 32 / 16 / 24
Pauldrons of Gruesome Fate 65 / 0 / 23
Destroyer Shoulderblades 36 / 16 / 38
Merciless Gladiator's Plate Shoulders 32 / 16 / 27
Blood-stained Pauldrons 47 / 0 / 55

Warbringer is what I'm currently using, S2 is pretty much the same thing, so I'm going to look at the other 3. The Gruesome Fate shoulders are honestly looking pretty strong because the stats are exactly what I need right now (would bring my ArPen to 500 and hit rating to 142) but the Blood-Stained are interesting as well (-18 primary, +32 secondary). T5 are nice as well, but my guild doesn't really do VR any more so I'm going to ignore those for now.

Well no matter how I look at it, I typically end up confusing myself. Every time I get an upgrade it changes around my stats and I have to figure out how to properly balance it. Is this system I'm using to compare worthwhile? How do I get geared up quickly without too much badge/pvp gear but not leach tons of gear out of raids?

Part 2: Solved - There is no magic number for hit/crit. Socket with str as much as possible.
What baseline do you use for stats? I'm currently trying to go with 142 hit, 2k AP unbuffed, 30% crit. If I'm sitting at 2.1k AP and 29% crit should I be gemming crit to make up for it? Is there a minimum you should have for crit %? I was under the impression that under a certain AP, str scales better than crit, and eventually crit (35+%?) starts losing some value as you approach 100% flurry uptime. This would suggest that there really isn't a "minimum" to crit so perhaps if my crit dives to the 28% range I should just leave it?

Part 3: Revised due to drops / understanding of the value of matching speed weapons
I decided to go with the badge offhand as my first purchase since it was a clear upgrade to my current offhand. I'm thinking of this order, perhaps I should switch it around? Missing anything?
1) Ring
2) Badge MH
3) Trinket
4) 2-handed axe

Skipping
1) Shoulders. Too little DPS increase, and so many better options.
2) Crossbow. I like it, but 150 badges?
3) Boots. Not enough of an increase over MgT leather to warrant the badges.
4) Gloves. T6 > Badge gloves.

Corbusier
05-23-2008, 10:24 AM
BSP > T5 > Pauldrons of Gruesome Fate

I found that the best way to gear up was planning ahead. Know the loot you want, know where the items fall in terms of rankings, then work your ass off. I shot for the S3 chest and legs since those are solid till well into T6 content. I crafted a DS, since that would last till the glaives (recently got the badge fists though) along with an S2 offhand. A LOT of gear I have is from badges, 330 badges so far, and another 150 once I buy the ranged weapon.

My other strategy is to hoard DKP till late-instance bosses or drops that aren't easily replaced (t5 helm, Tsunami Talisman, DST, and Midnight Chestguard in my case). You'll be killing the early bosses over and over again, so don't blow your wad on, say, the shoulders off Rage. You'll kill him dozens of times, don't worry.

When evlauating items, don't always worry about how it will affect your immediate stats; consider the long term. One item may drop your crit in the short term (i.e. Grips of Silent Justice), but are fantastic and will last you well into Sunwell.

Tatt
05-23-2008, 10:25 AM
I personally lean towards AP and crit, but that might be because I am at a lower progression than you. While gearing fury I have just kept to the attitude of "These are my minimums for all stats, if any one piece would make me drop below that then it does not fit, throw it into the bank till it does." I agree with you that the badge shoulders or blood stained would be the best upgrades though. Have you considered Swiftsteel? (Don't know if you are a BS or not)

Kream
05-23-2008, 11:38 AM
@Corb
Well my gearing strategy is to make use of the gear that doesn't have much competition. My guild is currently using open rolls and going to be implementing DKP soon. My gear at this level of progression is pretty bad, so to make up for all the drops I'm making use of, I'm going to be passing on drops that others want. Thankfully there is not much competition for DPS plate, at some point I will have gear I feel is "adequate" and then I will be more strategic about what drops I'm looking for. For now, its whatever the other guys don't need.

@Tatt
I'm not a BS unfortunately. I used to gear for AP and crit, but recently I've realized that if I have enough AP off my gear, I can gem to bring my crit rating up. For example I'm thinking about swapping my Hourglass of the Unraveller for Bloodlust Brooch. Factoring in the Hourglass at 1 ppm and adjusting AP to str based on kings, I'm swapping 23 str/32 crit for 53 str. So +30 str, -32 crit on the trade (still thinking about it..) The stats are the same, but I now I have a choice.. I can gem crit, hit or str to get my stats to where I want them, and redo the gems with my next upgrade to once again balance my gear whereas right now I'm pretty much force to gem str by my low AP (under 2k)

Corbusier
05-23-2008, 11:42 AM
It's hard to tell what you're really asking then, your question is pretty vague...

Either way, BLB > Hourglass.

Kream
05-23-2008, 11:54 AM
@Corb
I'm trying to see how others think about gear. Your post was very helpful actually, I think I may use my badges on BLB since I'm more likely to be able to replace my shoulders, and although Gruesome Fate shoulders have exactly what I want right now, in the long term I'd probably be better getting the BSP and using my badges elsewhere. Also kicking around the idea of the badge haste legs. I don't like the itemization much, but it has a lot of stats on it.

Brucimus
05-23-2008, 12:06 PM
I would hold off on the shoulders as well

Three nice shoulders drop off very common bosses Hydros has Wardancer, Rage has Bloodstained and Loot Reaver has Tier 5.

I still havnt been able to acquire any of them (still using season 2) yet but I have faith

Corbusier
05-23-2008, 12:11 PM
Alright.

In all honesty, I don't recommend the BLB as a badge purchase anymore for most people; it's too easily replaceable now considering the Shard of Contempt and Berserker's Call, TT, etc. The SoC shouldn't be too hard to get, as you can run the instance every day (though i have yet to win a roll on the fucker), but there will be a lot of competition for the BC/TT/DST.

I went the route of S3 gear, partly because the badge gear is poorly itemized (the chest is terrible, the legs are annoying, but on par with S3) and because that freed up badges for other items; the ring, fists, mail gloves, xbow, and leather boots are all fantastic.

Kream
05-23-2008, 12:46 PM
I have SoC already, just trying to figure out my second trinket slot. Currently it's either Hourglass of the Unraveller or Icon of Unyielding Courage if I'm really short on hit. Trinkets with a 2 min on-use are nice since I can macro it in with Blood Fury/Haste Pot and time it with Drums of Battle. Also looking into the badge gear you listed, the ring is really nice.

Corbusier
05-23-2008, 12:55 PM
SoC and Hourglass is a perfectly acceptable combo.

Tatt
05-24-2008, 10:13 AM
SoC and Hourglass are the trinkets that I use currently. I would love to improve my AP (1906 unbuffed at present) but scared to drop my crit under 30%. Maybe once some of my other gear improves I can afford the crit loss, but for now I am stuck with them.

Brucimus
05-24-2008, 10:22 AM
SoC and Hourglass are the trinkets that I use currently. I would love to improve my AP (1906 unbuffed at present) but scared to drop my crit under 30%. Maybe once some of my other gear improves I can afford the crit loss, but for now I am stuck with them.



I have a low hit rate (147) with higher AP (2011) and Crit (31.75) because I still mostly roll with pvp gear. Once i can get the bracers from Lurker and the Shoulders from Winterchill I may go back to the Hourglass to raise my crit

Kream
05-28-2008, 01:14 PM
Well in the past week I've gotten:
1) Badge offhand
2) T5 legs
3) T6 gloves

My crit rating continues to dwindle, but the Fury DPS spreadsheet is still rating str over crit.
Str (1.00) > AP (.900) > ArPen (.863) > Expertise (.838) > Crit (.801) > Haste (.719) > Agi (.590) > Hit (.493)

For fun I tried to figure out the point where Crit > Str and it is around 3000 AP unbuffed for me, so I'm going to stop socketing crit in the future (although not worth redoing any sockets right now). I have a long ways to go until I will gain from socketing for crit.

I plugged in some possible upgrades into the DPS spreadsheet and got some interesting results. Here are my biggest upgrades:
1) S4 MH axe (+34 DPS)
2) Badge MH (+23 DPS)
3) S3 MH axe (+23 DPS)
4) Badge ring (+15 DPS)
5) Blood-Stained Pauldrons (+12 DPS)
6) Rising Tide (+10 DPS)
7) Badge xbow (+9 DPS)
8) S2 MH (+8 DPS)
9) BLB (+5 DPS) - also some gains from timing cooldowns
10) Badge Shoulders (+4 DPS)
11) Badge Boots (+4 DPS)

The biggest surprise to be was that the Badge MH > Rising Tide for an orc (and I adjusted for expertise!). Checking the spreadsheet, syncing my weapons speeds brings my flurry time from 92% to 97% so I'm going to bet that is what is making most of the difference. Also it may be the fact that with 3 members of the group doing a drum rotation, the haste has more of an effect.

@Tatt
As far as I can tell the 30% crit "magic number" is just as foolish as advising to stack hit to 200. Neither Meeks nor the EJ DPS Warrior posts advise 30% crit. The EJ fury spreadsheet recommends socketing str until my AP reaches 3K unbuffed. My crit is dropping, my DPS continues to increase.

So I have some further questions:

Part 4:
How do you manage to maintain your fury rotation, rampage, demo shout, etc while running in and out of the fire? I find that as my attention is diverted elsewhere (raid warnings/timers, panning around for situational awareness, checking timers on cooldowns, ensuring my health is adequate, deciding if I should HS or not) I often forget where I am in my rotation and I am certain I lose a lot of DPS to it. I'm considering the following options:

1) Castsequence the whole rotation (BTx6, WWx4, Rampagex1, Demox1, reset=30/target change). When I run out to dodge the fire, I can reset the rotation to the beginning.
Problems:
-Rampage may not be available when I get to that point in the castsequence. I put it right after BT/WW which seems to be working provided I have the rage. I'm also going to white attack for 3 seconds or so to start my rotation off with plenty of rage.
-Quick dodges out and back in may cause the ideal use of abilities to be different than the cast sequence. I'm not overly concerned with this because it won't cause the castsequence to hang and in such a situation I'm probably doing a poor job of using the proper abilities anyways
-Medium interruptions (that warrant a castsequence reset) will probably result in me refreshing Rampage too early.
2) Some mod that puts all the information I need to know in one place where I can quickly analyze all the information and make intelligent decisions. Does such a mod even exist?
3) Work on my "feel" for the fight and my rotation until it becomes second nature and no longer requires much attention. I don't know how long this takes to learn and if it will ever outperform the castsequencing. However castsequencing the entire rotation will probably ensure I never get to the point where I can make good human choices as to what should go next.

Corbusier
05-28-2008, 01:34 PM
#3

The rotation isn't so complicated that you need a macro for timing purposes, and in may cases it will leave you rage starved.

I assume you're talking about Archimonde on that bit about running in and out of the fire. Archi isn't a DPS race, so perfecting your rotation isn't at the top of your priority list on that fight.

Rikosuave
05-29-2008, 11:20 PM
As Corb said Archimonde is a survival fight really, if everyone stays alive and pulls atleast 700DPS hell die.(Not exact numbers dont crucify me lol)

But to put Fury into simpler terms, keep Bloodthirst and WW on CD in your typical rotation, and manage rage, atm staying alive is more important than making sure Demo shout is up 100%.

Then again I dont know how long you've been playing as Fury, (from what i read so far you spec when your guild needs for the night). But just continue playing it and your rotation as fury should come as second nature, atleast it did for me when I switched from prot to fury after having a break from the game lol. Only problems I can see being are as arms with a druid tank, and your guild requiring you to keep up sunders/demo shout/battle shout while watching your quartz swing timer...lol not fun.

Kream
06-05-2008, 01:35 AM
I wasn't really referring to a particular fight, a lot of fights have a movement component that really screws my DPS.

I've decided to forget castsequencing and work on it the old fashioned way. It seems to take me a bit to get warmed up on a fight but I'm definitely doing a lot better maintaining my sequence. Moving from SCT SpellReady to CooldownTimers2 helped a lot since it's easier to check what my next ability should be if I lose track. Maintaining BS/Rampage/Demo is getting better and I'm working on it. With WF for the first time in a long time, keeping my rage bar from overflowing was difficult but I felt I did pretty well keeping my rage down while not rage starving myself.

Some further questions:

How much rage do you try to maintain with HS? I was aiming for 40, 50 if I was coming up on a BT/WW.
Is there any good way to smooth my rage gen out? I'm not using matched speed weapons atm, but I'm still getting huge chunks of rage from WF or crits.
Threat - At what % of threat do you:
Stop HS?
Stop yellow attacks?
Stop white attacks?
Where do you want to be on threat for execute range with Recklessness?
Is there some way to display the tanks threat lead as a numerical value rather than a percentage?

WWS of our first TG downing - Wow Web Stats (http://wowwebstats.com/ukv5sbkx4n6xc?m)
Try 1 and 2 I wasn't doing very well (respecs tend to make me suck for a bit), Try 3 I got shadowed right off the bat, but Try 4, 5 and 6 I put out 1400 DPS. Is this good, average, or poor for my level of content? I had WF, 2x Haste Drums, Ret pally aura but no CoR or BF.

Corbusier
06-05-2008, 05:57 AM
How much rage do you try to maintain with HS? I was aiming for 40, 50 if I was coming up on a BT/WW.
Is there any good way to smooth my rage gen out? I'm not using matched speed weapons atm, but I'm still getting huge chunks of rage from WF or crits.
Threat - At what % of threat do you:
Stop HS?
Stop yellow attacks?
Stop white attacks?
Where do you want to be on threat for execute range with Recklessness?
Is there some way to display the tanks threat lead as a numerical value rather than a percentage?

1) If you're coming up on a BT/WW near-synced CD, you need 55 rage to use both skills; so be aware of that when you see 2/3 seconds on their cooldown timers (I use OmniCC personally). Otherwise, you have to eventually get attuned to your own rage generation pace rather than watching for a specific number.
2) +hit and +haste, along with a fast offhand are your best ways to smooth rage generation.
3) I scale back on HS as 90% threat, since Omen is at best an approximation, and stop HSing at 100%. I don't stop white attacks unless I actually pull aggro.
4) You want your tank to have a good lead on you when you pop Reck; I often wait till the boss is at 8-12% to use it, since that allows the tank to build a hair more threat, and so that, ideally, reck fades the instant the boss dies, so none went to waste. As far as specific number? I dunno, again, it's something you have to feel out. All tanks generate threat at different paces. If you repeatedly pull aggro and die when recksecuting, then hold off a bit longer.
5) I believe Omen has a setting that allows that, but I'm not entirely sure. I also think you can set the bars to show total threat rather than TPS.

As for the Gorefiend parse, that looks like a perfectly respectable first try. I think I did ~1600dps the first time we downed him, and my gear was probably a bit better than what you're working with, since mine is a main set. All your abilities appear to be in the proper ratio, though 44% white damage is a bit on the high end, but nothing to worry about.

Crimsonstorm
06-06-2008, 03:38 PM
Shoulders: You listed T5 shoudlers as an option. Use them until you get either T6 or the Winterchill shoulders. Gruesome fate is a small upgrade but not worth 60 badges if you have T5.


Hit/Crit: Have at least 95 hit rating as fury (+3/3 precision) or 142 as Arms or Prot. As arms try to be as close as possible to 142. As fury or prot, hit rating about this number is only about 50-60% as effective as Str.

ArP: Stack ArP when possible, using items that have efficient stat allocations of course.


Badge Purchase Order:
1-2) OH (Vanir's Left fist of Brutality), and Ring (Angelista's Revenge) in some order. Order depends on your current OH, if it sucks get OH first, if its pretty good (97+dps) get Ring. Definitely get these two frist.

Then Bloodlust Brooch if your trinkets are bad.

When to get 2H axe dpeends on how often you are arms.

Shoulders: Dont get them since you have T5. Just wait for T6/WInterchill.
Crossbow: Dont get it, its too expensive. Its dps is only 1-2 higher than Amani Longbow, and only a bit better than other things below that.
Boots: Dont get badge boots they suck. Hope for Reliquary boots because they are insanely good.
Gloves: Dont get them they suck. Get T6 gloves or (even better) Akama gloves. Akama gloves are better than T6 unless you need the T6 gloves for 4 set bonus, in which case theyre almsot as good.

Corbusier
06-07-2008, 12:54 PM
Boots: Dont get badge boots they suck. Hope for Reliquary boots because they are insanely good.
Gloves: Dont get them they suck. Get T6 gloves or (even better) Akama gloves. Akama gloves are better than T6 unless you need the T6 gloves for 4 set bonus, in which case theyre almsot as good.
What?

I mean, if you're regularly killing RoS and Akama, then yes. But till then, those pieces are amazing.

Kream
06-09-2008, 10:10 AM
I have the T6 gloves now and the badge boots are pretty far down my badge pick order since the Fury DPS spreadsheet is showing them as a marginal upgrade over the H MgT leather boots. I'll need to take a look at the S4 boots as well.

Crimsonstorm
06-09-2008, 02:33 PM
What?

I mean, if you're regularly killing RoS and Akama, then yes. But till then, those pieces are amazing.

Badge gloves (Furious Deathgrips) are worse than both Gruul gloves and T5 gloves based on maxdps.com and ej spreadsheet. Or at best theyre about even. "They suck".

Badge feet: Actually there arent any. I meant legs.
Badge legs (Legplates of Unending Fury) could be good depending on your current gear, but they are expensive. They are worse than S3 legs (and much worse than S4). Spending Arena pts here would be a better option than 100 badges.

Corbusier
06-09-2008, 02:38 PM
I was referring to the mail gloves, not furious deathgrips.

And all the spread sheets put the new badge plate pants a hair ahead of S3 for me.