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Voldar
05-14-2008, 04:55 PM
I've noticed that there is quite a bit more fury warriors than arms warriors in raiding, and usually(at least on my server) arms warriors are regarded with a certain stigma that leads to then not getting into raiding guilds and being told that we are not as useful as fury warriors in a typical raid environment.

This is most apparent in the BT/MH raiding guild where I currently raid as a holy paladin and am trying to work my arms warrior into the guild since our fury warrior is leaving, however people in my guild aren't convinced of an arms warrior's worth.

To me it seems that an arms warrior can pull equivalent dps, while providing 5/5 Commanding Presence, the 2/5 Imp. Demo Shout to cancel out CoR, the availability of an extra spell interrupt and an extra OT that a Fury Warrior can provide, along with Blood Frenzy and the potential for more burst damage due to Sword Spec.

My main question is: Are arms warriors deemed less effective than fury because thats how it is in Kara through SSC/TK? Or because of some itemization/talent setup that I'm missing.


Thank you for any input.
-Voldar

Ciderhelm
05-14-2008, 05:52 PM
A lot of it will be the Kara issue you bring up. Why change a spec if your guild isn't attempting to min/max? Rather, why would you even think about trying? (not you in particular, but the mentality)

The process most guilds go through in deciding to bring an Arms Warrior occurs after they've come across a boss that they're having serious DPS issues with (Gorefiend would be an example).

At this point, the guild checks the WWS output to see the rough DPS output of other melee classes and estimate how much DPS will be gained from each individual. Adding these together for a total shows the rough DPS gained from an Arms Warrior.

Now, you subtract that number from the Fury Warrior's current DPS who would be respecing Arms. The new DPS number for that Warrior is the bare minimum that Arms would have to put out to be more effective than Fury.

In most -- not all -- cases, the Arms Warrior will clearly be more effective for guilds. The guild just has to realize the option is there and the Fury Warrior has to consider taking that route.

Hopefully someone can provide more detailed numbers than me. That's just a rough outline of the process we've gone through and several other guilds have gone through.

Voldar
05-14-2008, 06:07 PM
Well since you mentioned Gorefiend, I got my warrior in for Gorefiend one night, and pulled 861 dps in tank group, while the fury warrior pulled 783 in melee group (Feral druid, ret paladin, (our enh shaman was missing)). So in most cases I outdps the fury warrior, AND provide blood frenzy.

I figured most of the problems is the "Why start now?" Mentality. I'm fairly sure I will be able to work myself in if the warrior leaves, but I am putting together an argument if he doesn't, so thank you for the input.

PS. Thanks Cider for directing me to these fourms =D

Anglachel
05-14-2008, 06:47 PM
i think it's also because most people think MS=PvP... they don't know that a PvE 33/28 s a lot different from a PvP arms spec... you need to make that point clear, and let them know about the benfits of BF... go through your WWS reports and do the math so you can go to your RL with hard facts to convince him...

Voldar
05-14-2008, 07:17 PM
The hardest part is that my guild leader doesn't min/max, and we have a lot of physical dps that gets waitlisted so my guild leader is having a hard time justifying me swapping from a healer(we need good healers) to a role we have too much of, and the fury war had the spot before I even joined the guild. I have the guild leader convinced, the rest of the Raid Council is a little bit more of a job.

If you were curious, my armory is Here (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Windrunner&n=Voldar) and the other warrior's is Here. (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Windrunner&n=Kegsbane)

At time of post I logged out in my "PvE" Gear, which is pvp gear with a Romulo's Poison Vial and the thrown weapon from SSC Trash.

If I were to become a PvE Arms warrior, I would be going for the Shard of Contempt and a Bloodlust Brooch, because we don't run Gruul or ZA, and investing in the badge ring and stuff of that nature, so don't judge my mix-matched gear on what you see, I know its horrible. As I said my Paladin is my raider, my warrior just does Arenas.

Corbusier
05-14-2008, 08:12 PM
Well since you mentioned Gorefiend, I got my warrior in for Gorefiend one night, and pulled 861 dps in tank group, while the fury warrior pulled 783 in melee group (Feral druid, ret paladin, (our enh shaman was missing)).
Those numbers sound extremely low for Gorefiend. I pulled 1600 dps the first time there, our arms warrior was over 1400...

That was with an Enh Shaman, but that's still a difference of over 500dps, which is far beyond what a shaman adds.

Also: sell Romulo's Poison Vial the next time you log in.

Voldar
05-14-2008, 08:47 PM
I only use the poison vial to get hit capped, I hate having to use it.

Oh, and as far as MY dps goes, this was before I got my S3 sword and Dory's Embrace, I had a Stormherald, but that doesn't explain the whole dps difference, not sure why mine was so low. I have no excuses for the fury warrior, I'm fairly convinced he doesn't know what he is doing =P

Nobody in my guild pulls 1200+ dps consistently, except for one hunter who usually hits 1700 and a lock who usually gets close to 1800.

As I said, we are a casual guild that happens to be in BT, we only have 3 raids a week for 3 hours a day.

My warrior's dps gear is all strength gems except for 2 4crit/4str gems to hold the meta, with 518 armor pen. All my gear is S3 with S2 shoulders and my S3 sword, not exactly itemized properly, makes me resort to using stuff like the poison vial to get 142 hit. My build is 33/28, and my ping hovers around 150ms.

Any ideas to increase my dps that don't involve getting BT/MH gear are welcome.


... That, right there, told me why my dps is low. Arms is superior with BT gear and I don't have it yet.

So obvious...

Voldar
05-14-2008, 09:50 PM
Another thing I realized thats lowering my dps is my 24AP/Runspeed Meta, so I can have Surefooted for Pvp, instead of having the 12agi/3 crit damage/12 agi combo.

I appreciate all of the responses BTW.

Nebaku
05-16-2008, 01:08 PM
I am also in a 3 a week guild, doing BT and Hyjal.

If you are in the raid, you contribute 1 improved shout, either health or Attack power(if they put you in the Melee group.) You also have the raid wide 4% physical damage increase.

If you are in the melee group, chances are you will be in the top 5 dpsers.
If you are not in the melee group, you can be anywhere from there to the tanks.

I was running some numbers from Improved Demoralizing shout, and even my Blood Frenzy, and they make a significant difference to say the least.

If you are out dpsing the fury warrior, while he is in the Melee group, and you are not, in a fight like Teron(unless he was ghosted) then that is a serious issue.

I wish you luck in taking his spot in the raid. Or give him an ultimatum, he needs to be popping more consumables or fixing his rotation or something.

Graul
05-21-2008, 02:04 AM
A lot of it will be the Kara issue you bring up. Why change a spec if your guild isn't attempting to min/max? Rather, why would you even think about trying? (not you in particular, but the mentality)

The process most guilds go through in deciding to bring an Arms Warrior occurs after they've come across a boss that they're having serious DPS issues with (Gorefiend would be an example).

At this point, the guild checks the WWS output to see the rough DPS output of other melee classes and estimate how much DPS will be gained from each individual. Adding these together for a total shows the rough DPS gained from an Arms Warrior.

Now, you subtract that number from the Fury Warrior's current DPS who would be respecing Arms. The new DPS number for that Warrior is the bare minimum that Arms would have to put out to be more effective than Fury.

In most -- not all -- cases, the Arms Warrior will clearly be more effective for guilds. The guild just has to realize the option is there and the Fury Warrior has to consider taking that route.

Hopefully someone can provide more detailed numbers than me. That's just a rough outline of the process we've gone through and several other guilds have gone through.

This should show something. The raid makeup isn't identical either. On the Fury parse we had a Ret Paladin but no SV Hunter. For Arms, we had both. Still though, the similarities in damage is scary, especially when you consider BF added 700 more DPS to the raid.

Fury: Wow Web Stats (http://wowwebstats.com/hmynvmil3zdxc?s=6350-6536)
Arms: Wow Web Stats (http://wowwebstats.com/z1exza222ffiw?s=6048-6221)

Note how many Slams were used the entire night.

Voldar
05-21-2008, 03:59 AM
Graul, what level of gear does your guild have?

We are 4/5 Hyjal and 5/9 BT and we have no more than 5 people pulling over 1k dps. But that's another issue, I was just wondering for comparison purposes.

We have a 0/21/40 Warlock, BM hunter, combat rogue, fire mage and a ret paladin that pull over 1k, and if I were there on my warrior, I can pull ~1k since I got my S3 sword.

Graul
05-21-2008, 04:13 AM
The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Fenris&n=Graul)

Most of our DPS are similarly geared. Without seeing a WWS of your raids, my best guess would be the problem with your raids DPS would be raid makeup, group synergies, correct cooldown useage and consumables.

uruloki
05-21-2008, 05:52 AM
Those numbers sound extremely low for Gorefiend. I pulled 1600 dps the first time there, our arms warrior was over 1400...

id say thats what seems strange to be honest. 1600 dps in essentially t5 gear still? i dont see you having too much bt/hyjal gear by the time u start gorefiend. my own guild had only killed naj and supremus i think 3 times and akama once by the time we started working on him. and rage and anetheron on farm... but those just die when u see them.

Voldar
05-21-2008, 08:11 AM
As I've stated, we don't min/max, so that really hurts us alot.

Our normal raid setup, always changing depending on whos on, is:

3 Warriors (2 prot, 1 fury)
5 Paladins (3 holy, 1 prot, 1 ret)
3 Druids (2 resto, 1 feral)
2 Rogues (combat)
1 Shaman (resto)
2 Hunters (BM)
4 Priests (1 disc, 1 CoH, 2 shadow)
2 Mages (1 frost, 1 fire)
3 Warlocks (1 Affil, 1 Demo, 1 Destro)

We never usually have both the feral druid on and our enhancement shaman on in the same raid, so that slot in melee group is interchangeable. However, all of our melee dps get MORE dps when the resto shaman is dropping unimproved WF and SoR, because the enhancement shaman only has totems down about 30% of the time. We are working on getting rid of him. =P

The groups usually go:
1: 2 prot warriors, prot paladin, holy paladin(me), resto druid.
2: 2 Healing priests, Spriest, Holy Paladin.
3: 2 Rogues, Enh Sham/Feral Druid, Fury Warrior, Ret Paladin
4: Spriest, 2 Hunters, Demo Lock, Holy Paladin
5: Destro Lock, Affl Lock, 2 mages and Resto Shaman.

On average, 7 dpsers benefit from BF, and increase of approx 300ish dps last time I checked it, provided I did the math right.

WWS is Wow Web Stats (http://wowwebstats.com/v5ucutjne22ek?s=9266-9609) for our first and only Teron Kill to date (just got him last week) The numbers I was working off before were of our best attempts of the day with me in the raid (only got to raid twice as my arms warrior, one SSC and one BT). So we don't do nearly as bad as I thought we do, and the fury warrior actually pulled a respectable amount of dps.

That fight featured our MT, an OT in "dps gear"(Mallet of Tides MH, Kings Defender OH), 5 melee, 9 ranged, 8 regular healers and the prot pally in healing gear.

On that particular kill, the "Burn CDs" call was at 90%, which is when the Bloodlust/Heroisms went off and the warrior burned reck, etc.

Most of the dpsers threat-capped I believe, so those numbers could be better.

Tatt
05-22-2008, 02:23 PM
Not near your progression level, and not sure it applies to Arms the way it does to Fury, but I know that PVP gear is not nearly as effective in PVE as PVE gear is. Might not be helping your chances if the raid is seeing you all PVP'd out. If you need to prove the difference between PVP arms and PVE arms, than maybe it will help if your gear reflected it.

Not sure if that helps but just the first thing I noticed.

byechee
05-22-2008, 03:04 PM
the s3 gear is actually not bad at all for arms. most arms-centric pve gear that one would wear shouldn't have a lot of hit vs. other stats, and as such the s3 helm chest and legs are all fairly well itemized to this end. they all have a bit of hit rating (12) to help you get to the 9% hit cap, and also a good amount of str, crit, and ArP to boot. the s3 sword is also a very good pve arms wep, just below cat's edge. despite this gear having a lot of stam and resil, don't discount its quality for pve.

Corbusier
05-22-2008, 04:37 PM
id say thats what seems strange to be honest. 1600 dps in essentially t5 gear still? i dont see you having too much bt/hyjal gear by the time u start gorefiend. my own guild had only killed naj and supremus i think 3 times and akama once by the time we started working on him. and rage and anetheron on farm... but those just die when u see them.
We were 4/5 and 3/9, yes, and I had all of one drop from t6 content, the MH trash neck.

I'd link the WWS, but it's long expired.

Kream
05-22-2008, 05:09 PM
Don't seem far off to me. I just posted 1.2K on Anetheron and I am seriously undergeared for the content I'm DPSing. Also I didn't have a shammy, but did have 3 rogues running a drum rotation and a ret pally.

And about the Arms vs Fury thing, a stationary fight is perhaps not the best to compare on. Arms tends to lose more DPS than Fury due to movement. Although you didn't slam... so maybe that point is moot.

Voldar
05-22-2008, 06:17 PM
S3 is the best gear I have access to currently.

Next week I'm buying another S3 helm so I can put the proper meta gem in it.

Shortypop
05-23-2008, 12:40 AM
From my small experience with arms warriors (one of our fury ones respecced arms about half way through SSC), what is really crucial is having him in a melee group complete with shammy. With a dedicated melee shammy he tops our fury warriors, without it he doesn't - drums also helps and the buff from the necro's in MH.

byechee
05-23-2008, 03:14 AM
arms warriors shouldn't be doing more dps than fury warriors (not even close really), given similar levels of gear.

Kream
05-23-2008, 08:12 AM
arms warriors shouldn't be doing more dps than fury warriors (not even close really), given similar levels of gear.

Source?

Corbusier
05-23-2008, 10:08 AM
The source is hundreds of thousands of hours of gameplay by thousands of players. It's just how the trees are designed.

All else being equal, a 17/44 warrior will ALWAYS top a 33/38 or 31/30 warrior in personal DPS.

That's not to say fury will put out "tons" more damage; it's usually around 10%ish more.

Shortypop
05-23-2008, 10:20 AM
Our arms warrior gets first dibs on the shammy, so the fury warriors sometimes lose out, so not "all else being equal".

Corbusier
05-23-2008, 10:26 AM
Maybe I'm off topic, but I was responding to a previous post.

Anway, move a rogue out of the WF group, warriors benefit more from it anyway.

byechee
05-23-2008, 10:47 AM
Our arms warrior gets first dibs on the shammy, so the fury warriors sometimes lose out, so not "all else being equal".

you should get more shammies then.

Shortypop
05-24-2008, 12:17 AM
you should get more shammies then.

That's must be the least helpful advice I think I've ever seen. We got our first (and not due to lack of trying) shammy when we were killing hydross, and even now we usually raid with one, maybe up to 2 or very very occasionally three.

My point was that it's very hard to compare across specs in practice as things are not "all else being equal" due to raid make-up, gear, trying to balance parties etc.

To get back on topic, I'd stick to working on your guild to convince them to let you go arms, it's worth it (if you enjoy the play style).

Pheiro
05-30-2008, 10:54 AM
Honestly I'm really glad to see this post, I'm currently whittling away at our GL to let me go DPS spec. Up until recently I've been full prot, 1/5 consistant warrior in the guild, and we have no dps warriors. Hell, our melee dps consists of 1 ret pally, a handful of rogues, and an enhance sham that is relitively un-reliable sometimes. I specd my warrior fury for shits while I geared out my prot pally (another class we didnt have until recently) for MH trash with the intention of going back to my warrior once we find somebody that is more committed to prot pally. But going back to ssc to pick up a few upgrades for others, I brought my warrior in as dps, in all of my t4 glory, and managed to stay about 3rd in dps (roughly 890 dps) I'd deff have some work to do in the gear dept, might actually finish making my BS 2h Sword, as i'd like to try the pve ms build. Thanks for all the previous posts.