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Creampuf
05-13-2008, 06:45 AM
I'm new to the level 70 tanking world as well as this forum, and I'm really impressed with all the info here. It'll take me forever to digest it all, but I'm trying!

I've always been prot spec'ed except for a comical foray into arena and pvp instance play. I quickly figured out that that isn't for me.

Anyway, I have a question. I know that the magic number, right now, for defense is 490, which I've hit. But I see a large number of profiles with defenses well above that value.

Now, I imagine that much of that comes simply because better tank gear has higher bonuses. But I also notice that often these same profiles have +def enchants on them.

So my question is this: is there value in having a defense above 490, and how do I compare those increases with other potential tank-supporting bonuses?

If I have 500 defense, for example, would I be better off with a gem that does +4 def and +6 stam or one that does +4 str and +6 stam? (I'm assuming stamina is always preferable as my understanding is that it scales with armor and is therefore always good provided def is at least 490).

Thanks for any help!

Muggs
05-13-2008, 06:57 AM
Hi Cream,

490 defense is the magic number to make you crit immune vs. all mobs in the game, including bosses. Going above 490 is not a bad thing, defense is the second best avoidance stat after pure dodge rating (as is increases your dodge, parry, and chance to be missed all at once). As for socketing, you would want to put +12 stam gems in exclusively (a few exceptions) to maximize your health pool after you reach the 490 def mark.

Darraxus
05-13-2008, 06:59 AM
490 is the minimum to not be critted by a boss mob. Anything above 490 continues to add to your avoidance stats. Once you hit the 490 cap, I think most tanks start stacking 12 stam gems in their gear.

Creampuf
05-13-2008, 07:04 AM
The gems values I choose were purely arbitrary, to frame the question. But I think I get what you're saying.

So if I understand correctly, once I hit 490, stamina should be my main concern, but if I get defense on a piece of gear, that is still a good thing; however, I shouldn't go looking for defense over stamina and should always value stamina more. Is that correct?

Joeker
05-13-2008, 07:04 AM
I do not think dodge is the best stat ahead of defense because defense adds to all stats not just dodge.

Worldie
05-13-2008, 07:40 AM
The amount of pure avoidance added by defense is lower than the one from same rating of dodge, that's why dodge > defense for pure avoidance.

Leytur
05-13-2008, 07:49 AM
Check this out: WoW Forums -> Of tanking Malchazaar, and being 1-shot. (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=6440864667&sid=1&pageNo=1)

Amazing how many people are successful tanks without being knowledgable. I am Tubalcain on WoW forums.

Hypatia
05-13-2008, 08:08 AM
If you're the Tubalcain who posted in that thread, you're dead wrong. Please stop spreading misinformation.

After you are over 490 defense, the following is true:

25 dodge rating gives you ~1.321% avoidance.

25 defense rating gives you ~1.268% avoidance (~0.423% each of hit negation, dodge, and parry) and an additional ~0.423% chance to block.

25 parry rating gives you ~1.116% avoidance.

Dodge rating gives 1.042x as much avoidance as defense rating per point of rating. Parry rating gives 0.880x as much avoidance as defense rating. Dodge rating is very slightly better than defense rating, and defense rating is significantly better than parry rating.

You said in the post you linked:


What on EARTH are you doing with so much defense? 490 is the defense cap. Less with resilience. Once you get uncrittable STOP STACKING DEFENSE! You're better off going with pure avoidance stats: parry and dodge.


Bottom line: get to 490 defense. A couple points over is no big deal but more than 497 means you aren't gemming/enchanting right. Armory is down because Blizzard is too stupid to do maintenance on one or the other or I would look at you. Bottom line 2: make sure melee DPS knows where to stand. That's very noob if they don't know that parries kill tanks.

Bottom line: Learn how the game works before you berate people for doing things that make perfectly good sense. It's one thing to tell people that at their gear level they could afford to use less avoidance and more health (although I'd raise an eyebrow at suggesting that for Prince). It's another thing to tell them things that are flat-out wrong.

Joeker
05-13-2008, 08:09 AM
I would not say value stam more than avoidance but I would say that reaching the effective health of the instance is paramount. If you can't reach it then you are completely gimping your raid. So I would say value stam until you reach the point of being at the minimum of the effective health then start on the avoidance track. That way if you do take the hit you can survive it and get healed and continue on.

On a side note straight from the EJ forums:
One final point, defense rating is one of the best avoidance stats, point-for-point:
1 Defense rating = 0.017% dodge, parry, miss (plus other stuff) ~ 0.05% avoidance
1 Dodge rating = 0.053% avoidance
1 Parry rating = 0.045% avoidance
While dodge provides better raw avoidance, you also improve your block rating, and provide a buffer of gear selection by selecting defense when possible.

Leytur
05-13-2008, 08:17 AM
If you're the Tubalcain who posted in that thread, you're dead wrong. Please stop spreading misinformation.

After you are over 490 defense, the following is true:

25 dodge rating gives you ~1.321% avoidance.

25 defense rating gives you ~1.268% avoidance (~0.423% each of hit negation, dodge, and parry) and an additional ~0.423% chance to block.

25 parry rating gives you ~1.116% avoidance.

Dodge rating gives 1.042x as much avoidance as defense rating per point of rating. Parry rating gives 0.880x as much avoidance as defense rating. Dodge rating is very slightly better than defense rating, and defense rating is significantly better than parry rating.

You said in the post you linked:





Bottom line: Learn how the game works before you berate people for doing things that make perfectly good sense. It's one thing to tell people that at their gear level they could afford to use less avoidance and more health (although I'd raise an eyebrow at suggesting that for Prince). It's another thing to tell them things that are flat-out wrong.

I don't get it. Nothing you said is in contradiction to anything I said. I think you should read a little closer before calling people out.

Stacking defense past 490 when you can't survive a boss is just plain dumb. you're saying otherwise makes me wonder if YOU actually know enough about this game to comment.

Muggs
05-13-2008, 08:20 AM
In short to back up Ley, Avoidance will FAIL, EH won't. If you're uncrittable and your EH is diddly squat but you keep stacking Defense, it's only a matter of time until you eat it like that tank did vs. Prince.

Hypatia
05-13-2008, 08:28 AM
Leytur did not recommend stacking EH. He recommended dodge or parry over defense. I quoted all of his advice regarding gear choices in the post he linked to.

Prince isn't a bad place for avoidance, however. (At the same time, you're really unlikely to have enough health when you first get to him to spend time on gemming anything but health.)

Looking at the guy in question: He had 497 defense, which is barely over the crit cap. Certainly nothing to worry about. He says that he was ~13k health—which I suppose is low for these days, but I seem to recall was a bit high back when I was tanking Prince. (I think I was just over 12k? Hard to remember.)


Anyway, my objection is not to suggestion EH or avoidance. It's to the suggestion (which is on topic for this thread, as opposed to EH talk) that defense over 490 is a bad thing, when in fact it is a perfectly fine thing. There's no need to gem for defense unless you need to reach 490—but anything above 490 that your gear gives you is not at all a waste.

thewalrus012
05-13-2008, 08:29 AM
For just beginning tanking what would be the benefits of lowering the Defense Cap total by throwing on one piece of gladiator gear (for example lets use the shoulders). These add 19 resilience which should allow you to use more +12 stam gems than trying to socket more +defense.

I unfortuneatly do not know the math of what the Defense cap would be with 19 resilience (im guessing around 475-480? if anyone knows the concrete number please correct me)

Leytur
05-13-2008, 08:56 AM
Anyway, my objection is not to suggestion EH or avoidance. It's to the suggestion (which is on topic for this thread, as opposed to EH talk) that defense over 490 is a bad thing, when in fact it is a perfectly fine thing. There's no need to gem for defense unless you need to reach 490—but anything above 490 that your gear gives you is not at all a waste.


I never said otherwise. I said gem/enchant for def after 490 was not a good choice. I also said if you want avoidance +dodge is better than +def per rating point. Both those are true. Your continued chest pounding doesn't make them less true.

Avoid making comments about peoples reading ability. We don't tolerate insults. People come here to learn.

thanks.

Leytur
05-13-2008, 08:57 AM
For just beginning tanking what would be the benefits of lowering the Defense Cap total by throwing on one piece of gladiator gear (for example lets use the shoulders). These add 19 resilience which should allow you to use more +12 stam gems than trying to socket more +defense.

I unfortuneatly do not know the math of what the Defense cap would be with 19 resilience (im guessing around 475-480? if anyone knows the concrete number please correct me)

This is an excellent way to do it and I currently have the Gladiator's shoulders as well Stalwart Defender helm which give me like 40 resilience or something. I'm back to 487 def but I was down around 450 I think for awhile--and still uncrittable.

Muggs
05-13-2008, 09:44 AM
Well, in my defense I'm at work and my brain is fried -- I for one am thinking about making a crazy avoidance set for my pally due to well... boredom with the game atm >:|

ebs2002
05-13-2008, 10:20 AM
Once you get uncrittable STOP STACKING DEFENSE! You're better off going with pure avoidance stats: parry and dodge.
You're not better off going with parry. You're slightly better off going with dodge.


Phase 2 crushes are due to two things:
*snip*
Wrong, Phase 2 crushes will always happen. You can have him fully thunderclapped, and he'll still crush you; he hits too fast for you to keep shield block up through everything, even if he never parries and he's fully debuffed. Against prince, defense is better than dodge OR parry, because defense has a higher passive uncrush return than dodge does.


A couple points over is no big deal but more than 497 means you aren't gemming/enchanting right.
Wrong. I have over 500 defense, and when I'm up against prince I'm around 525, because Prince is an avoidance fight. You can get to 500 defense while gearing for EH and not having a single yellow/green gem in your gear, or a single +defense enchant. Personally, I put 4def6sta gems in my yellow slots when the socket bonus is worth getting (like in my Eng gun).


Now, to the OP:

Your minimum defense needed is 490. From that point, you want to stack stamina and armor until you reach the "EH Minimum" for whatever you're tanking. Once you hit the EH minimum, stack more threat or more avoidance. More avoidance means more dodge rating, defense rating, and parry rating (in that order)...although usually you won't be deciding between 25 dodge and 25 defense on a given slot.

For gems, if you want to go for the socket bonus, 4dodge6sta or 8dodge for red slots, 4def6sta or 8def for yellow, and 12sta for blue. Usually, going with 4___6sta is better for progression, because you get the bonus AND you get more stamina.

Leytur
05-13-2008, 10:26 AM
Wrong, Phase 2 crushes will always happen.

I never said otherwise.


Wrong. I have over 500 defense, and when I'm up against prince I'm around 525, because Prince is an avoidance fight.

Wrong. Prince is NOT an avoidance fight. It's a whatever you want to make it fight. I don't stack avoidance for Prince and he hits me like a pansy now. I went EH all the way with Prince and I won. You want to go avoidance go for it. But don't tell someone they're wrong when they successfully tank Prince another way.

Joeker
05-13-2008, 10:28 AM
Well If you are having problems reaching the EH of the encounter then yes you can wear some resilience. However, you are not getting the benefits of defense. Point for point you will get more out of defense than you will out of resilience. I personally would not wear it unless I was having severe problems reaching the defense cap and the EH of the encounter. But, if you are just going in to kara with blues then i would value defense over resilience since it will help you a lot more than just stacking stam and resilience since resilience only works for reduction in being crit. If your stam is truly below 12k to 13k I would also look at trinkets as well like the Commendation and one of the Darkmoon Cards. Stam is not always the best answer for every encounter especially for an encounter like prince where you can get insta gibbed in phase 2 due to being parried. I have been in the position where I wished for a little more avoidance on fights like tanking the shaman from Fathom Lord in SSC. That fight does depend on a good amount of stamina and some really good avoidance to survive the length it takes to down him. But enough of the rambling from me.

ebs2002
05-13-2008, 10:36 AM
You want to go avoidance go for it. But don't tell someone they're wrong when they successfully tank Prince another way.

Just because you've done it the other way doesn't make it the accepted standard. Pretty much all of the respected posters on tankspot agree that Prince is one of the few avoidance fights in the game.

And you did say otherwise; you said phase 2 crushes come because you either didn't keep him TClapped, or your DPS was on his front and got parried. There's a 3rd thing: that prince always has a chance to crush a warrior tank, and that means that prince always has a chance to double-crush a warrior tank, even considering perfect play. You're spreading misinformation by telling this guy, "you died because you didn't TClap, or because your DPS got parried". You completely ignored the main reason someone gets crushed on prince: because P2 Prince crushes warrior tanks. Period.

Creampuf
05-13-2008, 10:50 AM
Several times in here folks have talked about the "EH minimum" for a particular fight.

I think I understand what "effective health" implies: the amount of health you would have if you had no armor on at all. But I'm not really sure how to calculate it. I've looked at several threads here and it just kind of didn't make sense to me.

Basic questions I don't get are things like: does "avoidance" include the base chance to miss, or just the sum of parry, dodge and block, or something else?

[part of this may well have to do with me . . . I currently am on disability due to a car crash and my brain isn't quite right atm . . . but that's another story]

But the follow on is: how do I find out what the effective health requirements for a fight are? Lots of people post what they had when they did it -- but they aren't me exactly. They may be a far above average player, or have far above average support, etc. How does one figure out what the average player in a typical group should have? (I'm sort of assuming that people who visit these forums are self-selected and tend to include the higher skilled players probably in above average guilds . .. )

Kazeyonoma
05-13-2008, 11:09 AM
1) EH refers to the amount of raw damage you can survive without any incoming heals, this means, this is pre-armor reduction damage. You can calculate this by going here and plugging in your #'s: TankSpot - Calculator (http://www.tankspot.com/index.php?pageid=Calculator)

2) Avoidance includes the base chance to miss, and increased chance to miss from defense Skill. So its "5+Miss chance from defense + dodge + parry"
Block is not calculated in avoidance as it isn't avoidance, it is a form of mitigation.

3) Come here for EH requirements for raids, it's not about fight per fight, you gotta figure that out for yourself and for your raid makeup, for the general #s are pretty good: http://www.tankspot.com/forums/warrior-reference/37020-raid-zone-minimums.html

Hope this helped!

Kerchunk
05-13-2008, 11:16 AM
I think I understand what "effective health" implies: the amount of health you would have if you had no armor on at all.

Not exactly. It represents how much Health you would have if your damage mitigation were converted to Health. In other words, it is Health including Armor.

For example, someone with 16000 Health and 16000 Armor has "effectively" 37405 Health because the damage they take is mitigated, thus allowing them to get more "effect" from each point of health.


Basic questions I don't get are things like: does "avoidance" include the base chance to miss, or just the sum of parry, dodge and block, or something else?

Avoidance is the sum of Dodge, Parry and Miss. Block does not "avoid" all damage, but it is included if you're trying to reach the 102.4% mark of being uncrushable.



But the follow on is: how do I find out what the effective health requirements for a fight are? Lots of people post what they had when they did it -- but they aren't me exactly. They may be a far above average player, or have far above average support, etc. How does one figure out what the average player in a typical group should have?

You can look for articles on sites like this, but honestly a lot of it should be somewhat self-explanatory. A Tank starting Karazhan should have a lot of L70 blues, maybe some Heroic epics. A Tank finishing Karazhan should have a few Karazhan epics, some Heroic/Badge gear and some Heroic epics.

As long as you're gem'ing +12 stamina generously and choosing stamina enchants when possible you will have the health you need to progress provided you're not trying to "skip" content.

ebs2002
05-13-2008, 12:01 PM
I didn't, I said you will die to crushes for those reasons. Holy cow maintenance day reduces the IQ of tankspot posters as well it seems.
You said "Phase two crushes come from two things:"

Now sure, you could nitpick and say "well, I didn't say it ONLY comes from those two things", but regardless, you're spreading misinformation by neglecting the primary source of it. That's like if you were explaining to someone why their pack-a-day grandmother died from lung cancer, and you said "lung cancer comes from two things: second hand smoke, and pollution". Well yes, those can cause lung cancer too, but it's probably from the fact that she was a pack-a-day smoker, being that smoking is the cause of 80% of lung cancer in female patients.

kittikat
05-13-2008, 12:10 PM
I didn't, I said you will die to crushes for those reasons. Holy cow maintenance day reduces the IQ of tankspot posters as well it seems.
Following up all your replies with digs at people isn't productive and is quite childish. Try to refrain from generalizing as such on this forum if possible.

Thanks.

kittikat
05-13-2008, 01:30 PM
<snip> How is my signature insulting and counterproductive in an information forums? Does it tell you your IQ is low? Does it commend you on your chest pounding?

All it does is illustrate the quote underneath it that is quite popular in the druid community.

As a teacher, I would have expected you to know better, correct your faults, and continue on. Not straw man an argument in order to deflect attention away from yourself.

Play nice. People will respect your opinions and thoughts more when you do.

Now let's get back to the point at hand, which is the question about Warrior Defense Cap and other stats for tanking.

Ciderhelm
05-13-2008, 01:54 PM
Prince is an Avoidance fight. You can survive Prince without gearing for Avoidance, but it's not as reliable or effective.

Defense is good. Dodge is good. Those two will not normally come into contention with each other since they are different color gems and since you won't see two items of the same ilevel with an even tradeoff of Defense or Dodge to choose between. Defense and Dodge are both absolutely better than Parry under any circumstance where it matters.

490 Defense is a minimum. There is absolutely nothing wrong with going significantly above this, and given stat distribution on gear, it's difficult to wear quality gear without quickly breaking 500+. The question is one of trade-offs -- it's not better to stack Defense or Dodge if you're not meeting the Health and Effective Health minimums (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/warrior-reference/37020-raid-zone-minimums.html) for the encounters you're in and you're going to be at in the near future.

Taelas
05-13-2008, 03:06 PM
I never said otherwise. I'm sorry but you absolutely fail the reading comprehension part of this test. I said gem/enchant for def after 490 was not a good choice. I also said if you want avoidance +dodge is better than +def per rating point. Both those are true. Your continued chest pounding doesn't make them less true.
While the second is true, the first is not.

There is nothing wrong with gemming/enchanting for Defense when you're going for avoidance, providing you know what you're doing. Defense is the best avoidance enchants for wrists and chests there are available, and the best gems for yellow slots when the socket bonus is favorable. Saying that stacking Defense beyond 490 is "not a good choice" is flat-out wrong... and so is suggesting that Parry would be a better choice. Parry is all well and good, but it is and will always be the worst avoidance stat.

Which is what Hypatia was saying.

Kazaganthi
05-13-2008, 03:41 PM
Leytur, play nice. I don't even play anymore, and my lasagna is burning while I fix this. If you disagree with people, do so in a decent manner. People come here to discuss and learn......not to be put down. I happen to disagree with a lot of what you posted, but I'm not going to bash your mental abilities for it. Discussion promotes learning.

thanks,

Kaz

Joeker
05-13-2008, 07:13 PM
Yeah we can all bring our theories and thoughts here but lets not degenerate to name calling and fighting. I come to tank spot because there is a plethora of knowledge and I don't see "L2tank noob" and other such things. So lets keep it a civil discussion.

Kazeyonoma
05-13-2008, 09:38 PM
Wrong. Prince is NOT an avoidance fight. It's a whatever you want to make it fight. I don't stack avoidance for Prince and he hits me like a pansy now. I went EH all the way with Prince and I won. You want to go avoidance go for it. But don't tell someone they're wrong when they successfully tank Prince another way.

I have to address this. Although Prince is doable any which way, he is in fact an avoidance fight. What normally causes people to die, especially people who are not overgeared for the fight/instance is his ability to cause multiple crushes. This is due to his thrash mechanic which in all essence, is mechanically MADE to crush warriors. Avoidance helps in that you can avoid any of the 3 hits caused by a swing/thrash. This will preserve shield block charges and thus prevent crushing blows. Likewise, he suffers from dual wield miss penalty, so with avoidance, even in t4 level, you can reach passive uncrushability against him which is a huge benefit to the healers and your survivability. What you DONT want to do is stack avoidance so that your EH dips below a safe EH minimum against him. Of course you want EH, you always want enough to survive an encounter, but prince specifically, having some more stam won't save you when a 4-6k crushing is coming after he's eaten up your shield block charges, during phase 2.

The more you can prevent crushings the safer he is, and thus is why many of us consider him an avoidance fight. He has the ability to basically 1shot/thrash combo a tank in phase 2 and drop them. You can reach enough EH to survive this if you're at 100% but that simply isn't always the case with shadow nova, movement of the raid, infernals, and his offhand swings. That's why avoidance shines so well against him. It buys your healers time to heal when they need to potentially move or save the raid from infernal drops. Prince's whole mechanic is very luck based and after reaching the Eh minimum for this fight, Avoidance becomes your best survivability stat. Threat isn't much of an issue here since many dps has to move especially melee.

Armstrong
05-14-2008, 05:43 AM
I said gem/enchant for def after 490 was not a good choice. I also said if you want avoidance +dodge is better than +def per rating point. Both those are true.

Saying that dodge rating gives more pure avoidance than defense rating point for point is accurate. However when a tank is already uncrittable and gearing for more avoidance, saying that dodge is "better" than defense is not always true.

First, due to socket bonuses, putting a defense gem in a yellow socket may be more beneficial than a using dodge gem if the defense gem enables a socket bonus.

Second, consider the following:

(+12 defense bracer enchant & +12 stam gem) > (+12 stam bracer enchant & +8 dodge rating gem)

and

(+15 defense chest enchant & +12 stam gem) > (+150 hp chest enchant & +8 dodge rating gem)

Lastly, while dodge rating gives slightly more avoidance than defense rating, it's worth pointing out that the added chance to be missed you gain from defense is the only avoidance that continues to work when you are stunned, feared, attacked from behind or otherwise incapacitated. When you factor in that defense gives you more chance to block and a minor threat / rage increase from parry, it becomes very difficult to view the tiny amount of added avoidance from dodge rating as a clear advantage.

knucklehead
10-25-2008, 07:46 PM
Very interesting points and discussion above but I wonder how all this is affected by the new patch 3.0 for WothLK? I have noticed that my defence dropped quite significantly below the 490 mark to 470 after the patch even with the same gear so does this mean I am no longer crit immune?

Nuke
10-25-2008, 08:19 PM
Very interesting points and discussion above but I wonder how all this is affected by the new patch 3.0 for WothLK? I have noticed that my defence dropped quite significantly below the 490 mark to 470 after the patch even with the same gear so does this mean I am no longer crit immune?

Yes

Naaven
10-25-2008, 10:05 PM
Very interesting points and discussion above but I wonder how all this is affected by the new patch 3.0 for WothLK? I have noticed that my defence dropped quite significantly below the 490 mark to 470 after the patch even with the same gear so does this mean I am no longer crit immune?
The "490" number in the uncritable discussion is pretty grossly misrepresentative of a tank's crit status unless you're in end-game content with all PVE pieces, since almost everybody (including some of the high level guys) has resilience from a Gladiator piece or two. Since a lot of guys that frequent Tankspot areN'T in end-game, it's worth noting here again that resilience adds to your uncritable status.

The easiest way to tell if you're uncritable is to go to your character page and mouseover your defense and find the "Decreases chance to be critacally hit" number, then mouseover your Resilience and find the "Reduces chance to be critically hit" number. Add those together and they should equal 5.6% or greater. If so, you win.

Or at least that's how I understand it.

Dahler
10-26-2008, 12:47 AM
The easiest way to tell if you're uncritable is to go to your character page and mouseover your defense and find the "Decreases chance to be critacally hit" number, then mouseover your Resilience and find the "Reduces chance to be critically hit" number. Add those together and they should equal 5.6% or greater. If so, you win.

Or at least that's how I understand it.

That works, but the easiest way to tell (at least for those too lazy to do our own math) is by using Vene's Resilience Calculator (A list of useful Tanking Formulas for Warriors - Dodge, Parry, Block (http://www.tankingtips.com/tanking-formulas)) to see how much defense you need plus how much resilience you have. :)

Kazeyonoma
10-26-2008, 01:56 AM
holy mother of necro.

knucklehead
10-26-2008, 04:19 AM
Great info and thanks for the help with that. :)

My next question is on crushing blow. Is this related to shield block and if so how do you calculate if you are immune to crushing blow?

Kazeyonoma
10-26-2008, 10:14 AM
crushing blows were removed in patch 3.0.2 so that info is a bit dated.

well let me elaborate.. Crushing blows were "effectively" removed because they changed it from being 3 levels higher to 4 levels higher for an npc to have crushing blows on their combat table. Since at level 70, assuming you have reached 350 defense, raid bosses are treated as 3 levels above you, they can no longer crush you. However say you are level 69 and walk into a level 70 raid, or if you're leveling up and pull a level 74 mob come wotlk, they will in fact crush you.

Check out Satrina's Guide about crushing blows to find out more. (Apologies Satrina! too early for me)

Satrina
10-26-2008, 10:17 AM
crushing blows were removed in patch 3.0.2
...

Kazeyonoma
10-26-2008, 10:18 AM
uhh, wait up lemme fix that =x