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View Full Version : Mah Defense! But it seems to be working...



Jodatee
05-13-2008, 04:25 AM
I'd like to get some higher-geared Tank's opinions on my gear and spec.

I fully realize that my def rating is highly overkill right now and it was intentional. lol. I wanted to see just how far i could push the limits of my gear. As of now I can clear any heroic including MgT, and 1-shot clear kara with my guild as off-tank. They would like me to start main-tanking it, however I'm nervous about it cus I dont think I could Tank prince.
The gear I am most commonly using right now is a high avoidance set, however I am also collecting up peices for a mitigation set aswell as some resistance peices in the bank.
Basically, I really really like the way I have my sockets and chants set right now but I know it will limit me cus I simply wont have enough health to progress into ZA and beyond. Right now my health is at 12'500 unbuffed if i remember correctly (armory is currently down for maintenance as I post this) and armor is above 15'000. I was going to resocket and re-enchant a few days ago to drops alot of Def Rating (its at 556 right now and can put it to 564 with gear swaps) but I just couldnt bring myself to do it lol.
I need other people's advice on what to do here cus without some persuation I know I wont do it myself lol.

I cant link the armory page right now cus as I said, Armory is down for maintenace but I will post my toon info:

CHARACTER: Jodatee REALM: Executus

I will add the link as soon as armory is up again

Please help cus I cant decide :(

Jodatee
05-13-2008, 04:38 AM
I was spec'd 10-5-46 for the longest time but i recently adjusted it more to fit my playing style. I'm now 8-5-48 and it seems to be working alot better.
I dropped Imp heroic strike for Imp T-clap so I could hold multiple targets easier in arms tree. and in protection I dropped Imp revenge and Tactical mastery so I could put points in 1-hnd spec and and Imp def stance for the following reasons: Im running alot of raids and heroics now and imp revenges stun doesnt seem to interupt boss casts enough (or even at all sometimes) and it doesnt increase dps or threat(so it seems anyway). I picked up Imp Def stance so I would be a more well-rounded tank and resist boss magic more, even though some believe imp def stance is unnecessary. I dropped Imp heroic strike because i see it as 3 talent points spent just to reduce heroic stike cast cost by 3 would be better spent on focused rage which would affect ALL abilities. There were some other small changes I made also but take a look at my spec for yourself and tell me what u think,

Joeker
05-13-2008, 05:08 AM
Well at that much defense with out being able to look at your toon is a little discomforting. If you sacrificed even a little of that you could reach the effective health standards of the later encounters of kara with out a problem. I really dont see that as being the most effective if it is gimping you already. I would drop to about 500 to 510 def and see if you can get some stam in there. All of this is conjecture as I can't see the character sheet. How did you end up with that much defense in the first place. What trinkets and rings are you using. Are you having any threat issues with that much defense

Leytur
05-13-2008, 05:39 AM
You can try to tank Kara by going down a gear road I haven't heard of anyone taking (stacking insane amounts of def) or you can take the tried and true route of stacking the "generic" way of getting your HP to a respectable number before looking at other stats.

You haven't touched at all on your threat. If you're expecting to tank Kara in no +exp/hit/sbv gear then I think you're in for a tough time.

Jodatee
05-13-2008, 05:58 AM
well its not really gimping me yet, but i know it will in higher level raids because of the lower stam im currently running with.
Im not having any threat issues yet because of the talent spec adjustments i made. I can get away with having a few full T6 dps in the group aslong as they know when to watch their aggro, usually only when im tanking 3 or 4 mobs is this ever an issue.
As far as trinkets go, I use moroes lucky pocket watch and adamantine figurine as my main trinkets but i also keep dabril's enigma and a few others in bag for when needed.
for rings, i have the revered kara ring and the pre-2.4 badge ring both with stats chant on them
here I'll just list it for now until armory is up again:

head: pre-2.4 badge helm with head glyph rfom CoT rep, socketed with a +15 stam and a +12 def/+10% shield block
neck: pendant of the juggernaught
shoulders: spaulders of dementia with the exalted insription from scryers
chest: Panzar'Thar breastplate with the def chant and I dont recall the gems atm
wrists: Bracers of the green fortress with +5 def chant
Hands: gauntlets of the chosen with +8 def kit
waist: Lion's heart girdle
legs: Time wardens leggings with nethercleft leg armor kit and i dont recall the gems atm.
feet: Eaglecrest warboots with +8 def kit
back: devil shark cape with +12 def chant
main hand: inuuro's blade with potency chant
shield: shield of impenetrable darkness with +10 block rating chant
ranged: melmorta's twighlight longbow

Jodatee
05-13-2008, 06:00 AM
i dont recall all my sockets atm but theres alot of +8 def, +5dodge/+6 stam, and +12 stams.
a +15 stam and a +8 parry is in there somewhere too

Lavache
05-13-2008, 06:04 AM
You can try to tank Kara by going down a gear road I haven't heard of anyone taking (stacking insane amounts of def) or you can take the tried and true route of stacking the "generic" way of getting your HP to a respectable number before looking at other stats.

You haven't touched at all on your threat. If you're expecting to tank Kara in no +exp/hit/sbv gear then I think you're in for a tough time.

i read a post on here a while back where someone stacked +def until he was in the 600 range and then tanked. it was an interesting read.

Joeker
05-13-2008, 06:06 AM
Well If you already know that it will be gimping you health wise then drop a lot of the defense and add some stam. I mean I sit at 531 defense in boss tanking gear and I do not stack defense at all. So you could drop a lot of it get to the effective health minimums of the level you are tanking at and then socket for more avoidance. But if you can full clear kara in that gear set up then thats all that really matters. Now if you are looking at going beyond to even say ZA I would really add a lot more stam to the equation. Especially since some of the bosses can hit for 8k on plate.

Leytur
05-13-2008, 06:09 AM
So you DO have a threat issue. . . Just because you don't lose aggro doesn't mean you don't have a threat issue--it means your DPS can read Omen.

Jodatee
05-13-2008, 06:23 AM
but what im wondering is how much of my def rating and dodge/block % should i be willing to sacrifice to get my health up without dropping my aviodance too low tath i wouldnt be able to run at the level of heroics and raiding im already running at? I wanna get my health up I just dont wanna set my personal progression back any :(

Joeker
05-13-2008, 06:26 AM
I can honestly remember running at 493 defense and struggling for health the entire way untill I hit T5 content where the avoidance/stamina on the gear made it quite a bit easier.

Bonerot
05-13-2008, 06:40 AM
Agree with the other posters, you are holding your raid back by stacking defense in Kara.

Stacking def in kara leads to lazy raiders, a lazy tank who doesn't have enough rage to generate threat, lazy dps who can just autoattack for fear of passing said tank and lazy healers who forget to heal and start to dps to make up for the groups lack dps.

Jodatee
05-13-2008, 06:43 AM
oh, and for hit rating/expertise i do have some alt gear but i never realy use it cus i didnt realize it would increase my threat so much.

I have the Dawnforge defender, The Shattered Sun Pendant Of Resolve, Icon of the unyeilding force, and Royal Cloak Of the Arathi kings.
Oh, and i passed up on the Shard of Contempt a few days ago while i wasnt paying attention /facepalm
Should I start to mix some of these into my gear?
personallty I would figure that I would only need those when running with very high geared, high threat groups.

Jodatee
05-13-2008, 06:49 AM
no no, threat hasnt been an issue yet. rage generation is fine. truthfully the spec and what not is working great for what im currently doing. lol that wasnt my question. I'll admit, the high avoidance keeps me on my toes in some situations but I dont mind cus I'm a very involved player and it just makes it more interesting for me lol.
Im not going to be moving into higher game content quite yet, but for when I do, what Im asking is how low should i be willing to drop my overall avoidance stats and how much health should I aim for?

Bonerot
05-13-2008, 06:50 AM
The best advice I can give you is to learn more about tanking theory.

Not to be dismissive but I can tell from your posts that you have not read the basic tanking guides. Until you read and then re-read these guides you will just be guessing as to what you are doing and what is happening because of it.

TankSpot - Tanking Resources (http://www.tankspot.com/index.php?pageid=Tanking)

You'll be a better tank for having read them.

Jodatee
05-13-2008, 06:53 AM
the prot warrior section of elitist jerks is better for learning the mechanics of tanking

Bonerot
05-13-2008, 07:38 AM
Based on your gear and questions and the fact that I have read all of them I'm going to say no it's not.

Kazeyonoma
05-13-2008, 09:38 AM
elitist jerks is a good site to go to for math crunching and min/maxing, but if you want an all encompassing guide, you gotta read fortifications.

Hypatia
05-13-2008, 10:10 AM
You're definitely high on avoidance and low on health for what you're looking at tanking. I would swap as many gems as possible to stamina (keep just enough to be able to keep using the meta.) Enchants as well—shield block rating to shield? Poor choice.

Leytur
05-13-2008, 10:15 AM
no no, threat hasnt been an issue yet.

Trust me--threat generation IS an issue for you.

Finelle
05-13-2008, 11:03 AM
While you're "fine" right now, you won't be once you start to hit higher content. Even if you don't do 25man raids at all, ZA will splatter you all over troll city with that kind of setup. There's a lot of burst damage in ZA and not all of it is dodge/parryable. If you don't believe me, take a walk in heroic Magister's Terrace and see how well your avoidance stacks up. Even in Kara, Prince will be a cakewalk because he simply can't hit you, but Nightbane will eat you alive.

I don't know who your DPSers are, but if you've stacked that much avoidance and low hit/expertise/block value, along with 12.5k unbuffed hp, you're giving your raid an unnecessary workout. Try reversing it and let them challenge you for once. Instead of being healing reactively, challenge your healers to manage their mana and heal a steady stream of predictable damage. Instead of watching Omen, challenge your DPS to higher and higher levels of raid DPS. It will make it much less of a shock to transition to ZA.

Bear in mind, gear doesn't come overnight. What works now will not work in a later raid instance. This is not about being conformist or nonconformist, this is about the known mechanics of raid tanking and you don't seem to be challenging those.

Tanking isn't about blindly making a number go as high as you can. Gear-wise, how good a tank you are cannot be measured with a single stat. I learned this when doing research for tanking SSC. I am technically at a level of Effective Health to start Sunwell (no, I'm nowhere near that level of progression), but my avoidance in boss mitigation set fails even the Morogrim checkpoint. Balance out your gear, you, your healers and your DPSers will not regret it.

ebs2002
05-13-2008, 12:21 PM
High defense/avoidance is great for being an off-tank, and it's great for heroics (provided your DPS doesn't get frustrated at your threat generation).

You'll probably survive just fine, too, but it may take 50% longer for your raid to kill them while you're tanking.

Will it work? I bet it would. I bet you could tank prince with that gear, too...or at least, he won't kill you due to his normal damage. Wipes would be because someone else was above you in threat (and you get enfeebled), or because the fight took so long that infernals finally eat your raid.

However, you would not be the best tank to take, because I'd have to agree that your threat wouldn't be that great (a lack of threat stats, and rage starvation on most bosses).

Bonerot
05-13-2008, 03:02 PM
As an OT avoidance is kinda useless since most of the time you aren't getting hit anyway. I'd rather a warrior OT had a solid threat set then an avoidance set.

New raid warrior tanks should focus first on a good EH set, work on a prot dps set (not quite the same as fury) at the same time and then once they have a good EH set they can work on maxing threat.

If I just did heroics I'd get maybe 15k/15k unbuffed, 485 def and then try to max threat stats, hit, expertise, shield block value. Too much avoidance or armor just makes it hard to generate enough threat to keep the party moving quickly.

Jodatee
05-13-2008, 11:08 PM
lol... k... your all missing the point I made in the first place. I previously had socketed and chanted properly allowing myself around 14'000 HP/ 15'000 AR and 520ish DR. I changed it to its current state as an experiment. I wanted to see how much the insane avoidance (not just DR but more stat specific, like lots of dodge and some parry) would allow me to push the limits of my gear and if it would compensate and allow me to run higher content because I had never heard of it being done and was curious. If you armory my toon you will see that I avoided stacking block stats as heavily as the rest because the idea was to achieve extreme avoidance, not damage reduction. As you can see, these were not blind, inexperienced choices. The idea was to avoid damage, not to deal with taking it, while still effectively tanking.
And for those of you that are curious, it does work, but it also doesnt. It depends on the specific circumstances. Example: Heroic MgT has been a cake walk, but Heroic SH is just brutal. lol . Kara is problem free with the exception of Prince, simply cus I am not comfortable enough with the fight yet. In general, rage generation was not effected due to the slected talent spec I'm guessing. Overall threat however, definitely effected when dealing with 3 or more mobs.
Anyways, the question I trying to ask, lol, was regarding game content that I havent experienced yet. Like , for example, becoming MT in ZA. Like I said, I intentionally spec'd my gear the way it is knowing its not conventional. Reason being, our guild wants to progress together, with out leaving others behind. Messing with this has made it interesting while I wait. lol. So really my question regards to ZA for the near future as most of us are geared for it now.
And on a final note, dont be afraid to try new things because you might be pleasantly surprised with what u find :)

Harkor
05-14-2008, 02:25 AM
8 def gems make me cry.

Silthias
05-14-2008, 03:07 AM
As most others have said, you HP is going to be very low for ZA, and yuor threat, as others have said WILL suffer, a good dps will never push past the tank, but a good tank will never see the DPS even close to them when the DPS go full out, which im guessing is not the case with your DPS. Def is great, but that comes with the gear, go for Stam and armour atm, as that will give you an easier time learning the newer fights in ZA and onwards.

I personally would be interested in a WWS report of you Mting in Kara, to see what the group and ur threat is like.

Regards,

Silthias

Lionides
05-14-2008, 05:20 AM
Hi m8

Maybe I am allso missing the point but here goes my version of what u are asking .
Stats you should aim for to be able to MT Prince and Most in ZA :
- Armor 16000-16500
- Unbuffed health 14000-14500
- Def rat : 490-500
- Block : 24 %
- Dodge : 20 %
- Parry 16 %
- Hit rat : 7 %
- Expertice rat : 4 %

Obviously it can vary and one stat can make up for the other but in general I would feel that these are quite average good stats to start MT'king Nightbane , Prince and Beyond with . Anyone pls correct me if I am wrong :)

Hope this helps
Lio

Darraxus
05-14-2008, 08:14 AM
Once your gear keeps upgrading, you wont have to stack all those gems or you will end up with like 600 defense. I have 15k health and 17700 armor unbuffed and like 22 percent dodge, 19 percent parry, and 27 percent block with about 515 defense. I would never go into the 560s unless my gear gave it to me without gems.

I would replace some of the 8 defense gems with some 12 stam gems and watch how much your HP goes up.