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luminarium
05-13-2008, 03:32 AM
Hi,

I am confused.

I understand that the defense rating cap for crit immunity is 490, and any thing above isn't wasted as it still gives you % dodge, parry benefits etc..

Then I read this

" a 59 resilience rating would lower the defense cap needed to 453. This equals 90 defence rating for the pure "crit immunity", yet will of course offer zero avoidance"

Is this true, and if it is what is the formula?

On my tanking I have a defense of 514 def, when 490 is the cap (24 over) yet I have a resil of approx 50 too, which would mean if this is true I am approx 60 def over the cap, and maybe should free some of it up.

I am a KARA, GRUUL, ZA (2 Bosses), SCC (3 Bosses) and Mag's MT and OT.

Any info appreciated.

Lumi

Arrivan
05-13-2008, 03:40 AM
For the purpose of reaching uncrittability, defence rating and resilience do the same thing. Your percentage crit reduction from +def and resilience needs to add up to at least 5.6% to be uncrittable. It is true that resilience does not offer the avoidance that +def does though. There is no formal "formula" other than the fact I stated though (at least to my knowledge, although I'm sure you could find a relationship with some algebra). With your +def and resilience, you have plenty of room to drop some of either in favour of other stats.

Oh, one more little thing that my pedantic self couldn't help noticing. There is no defence cap. 490 defence makes you uncrittable, but continues to provide effect after 490 too in the form of avoidance + block. Sorry, little things like that get to me.

Also, since this is in the Armory Ratings & Suggestions forum, would you mind posting a link to your profile? I'm sure we can give some tips about what to change if you want to swap that extra +def for other stats.

Jodatee
05-13-2008, 04:51 AM
lol I argee with Arrivan! It drives me nuts when people tell me that any def rating above 490 is useless (and often it is casters without tank alts telling me this... stupid squishies! lol)
My toon Jodatee on Executus is solid proof that there is no 490 cap. My def is at 556 (to 564 depending on gear swaps) and belive me it doesnt cap. It raises you avoidance through the roof. DO NOT USE MY TOON AS A COOKIE CUTTER FOR YOUR TANKS lol because my def rating is very much overkill for my current needs and it was intentional as a test of a sort. Just wanted to see how far I could push the limits of my gear.
But back to the point, there is definitely no defense rating cap. Very true

Clifford
05-13-2008, 05:11 AM
Use the TankingTips calculators A list of useful Tanking Formulas for Warriors - Dodge, Parry, Block (http://www.tankingtips.com/tanking-formulas)

Chrisits420
07-13-2008, 07:21 PM
sorry im on my crapy pc key board if like wtf lol >>anyway >>> people tell me even tho my defence is at five fifty three and my rating is at four thirty four >>>that im critalbe cuz i need a RATING of four ninety>>>>what im trying to say is your defence and defence rating numbers are deferent >>>r they not?

Danielmi
07-15-2008, 05:01 AM
Essentially, Resilience for tanks (Except druids) is Fail in all shapes and forms.
Because the key point is that stacking resilience will NOT prevent you from being crushed, which is on the attack table listed for any mobs and bosses higher than level73.

On the topic of defense rating, whilst going over 490 is not harmful in any means, if you can find pure avoidance/block stats to substitute that defense then by all means trade it over.

Armstrong
07-15-2008, 11:44 AM
Call it lack of time or energy, I rarely find the inspiration to pick on people's statements. But I suppose exceptions will happen from time to time:




Essentially, Resilience for tanks (Except druids) is Fail in all shapes and forms.

Resilience provides a good way to reach crit immunity at a lower stat cost than defense, which makes it a viable stat to use in resistance sets. Saying that Resilience "is fail in all shapes and forms" is at the very least an exaggeration.



Because the key point is that stacking resilience will NOT prevent you from being crushed, which is on the attack table listed for any mobs and bosses higher than level73.

Higher than 72 versus a level 70 player with maxed defense skill, and there are some known exceptions to the rule.



On the topic of defense rating, whilst going over 490 is not harmful in any means, if you can find pure avoidance/block stats to substitute that defense then by all means trade it over.

This is also rather unclear and potentially misleading.

One point of Defense rating provides approximately 4% less pure avoidance than one point of Dodge rating, and 21% more avoidance than one point of Parry rating. Also, blocking is generally not considered to be avoidance, so unless you are building a passive-uncrushable set, items with Block rating are rarely more "desirable" than equivalent quality items with dodge / defense / parry when you're interested in survivability stats.



Making an effort to double-check one's statements will go a long way towards keeping these forums useful. :)

Danielmi
07-20-2008, 06:37 AM
Call it lack of time or energy, I rarely find the inspiration to pick on people's statements. But I suppose exceptions will happen from time to time:





Resilience provides a good way to reach crit immunity at a lower stat cost than defense, which makes it a viable stat to use in resistance sets. Saying that Resilience "is fail in all shapes and forms" is at the very least an exaggeration.

Ok, how many guilds out there, that manage to progress beyond the first boss in kara have main tanks that focus and use RESILIENCE over DEFENSE,
There is PLENTY of perfectly good substitutes to resilience crap...
The stam is fine but really, i'd take none PvP gear and focus on perfecting my stats.


Higher than 72 versus a level 70 player with maxed defense skill, and there are some known exceptions to the rule.

Never said there we'rent exceptions too that rule... Your obviously taking what I'm saying out of context because you feel like playing "holier than thou".


This is also rather unclear and potentially misleading.

One point of Defense rating provides approximately 4% less pure avoidance than one point of Dodge rating, and 21% more avoidance than one point of Parry rating. Also, blocking is generally not considered to be avoidance, so unless you are building a passive-uncrushable set, items with Block rating are rarely more "desirable" than equivalent quality items with dodge / defense / parry when you're interested in survivability stats.

Ok, you may have me there, but with the vast amount of options for gear that allows you to gear up as a tank, and going into karazhan as a half decent tank isnt too hard. And as a raid leader, I will always choose the guy with PvE gear over PvP because it indicates experience in teamwork and other things that are beyond the grasp of a lot of PvPers...

Making an effort to double-check one's statements will go a long way towards keeping these forums useful. :)

Next time you wanna play the holier than tho attitude, how about you make a points that aren't totally inadmissible...

ZurvanDD
07-21-2008, 05:26 AM
This thread was very helpful if nyone can give me suggestions for gear i would greatly appricate it


The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Blade%27s+Edge&n=Zurvan)

mustangofold
07-22-2008, 07:06 AM
Sine you are an Alchemist ZurvanDD, I would be aiming for exalted with Shattered Sun to craft up a Guardian's Alchemist Stone - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft (http://www.wowwiki.com/Guardian%27s_Alchemist_Stone)
pricey, but almost as good as 2 normal trinkets for the Defence it provides.

veneretio
07-22-2008, 07:22 AM
Ok, how many guilds out there, that manage to progress beyond the first boss in kara have main tanks that focus and use RESILIENCE over DEFENSE,
There is PLENTY of perfectly good substitutes to resilience crap...
The stam is fine but really, i'd take none PvP gear and focus on perfecting my stats.
Umm...

me ;)

I wore the S2 Shield for a very long time as well as the S3 Chest for a time after when it was released. I abused the high resilience on both pieces to allow me to sport Defense levels consistently below 490 Defense. It allowed me to push my Stamina, Armor and threat stats to higher than usual levels as a result. I'm not sure if I killed anything past the 1st boss in Karazhan.... but I'm in Black Temple... so who knows?

Danielmi
07-28-2008, 12:28 AM
Umm...

me ;)

I wore the S2 Shield for a very long time as well as the S3 Chest for a time after when it was released. I abused the high resilience on both pieces to allow me to sport Defense levels consistently below 490 Defense. It allowed me to push my Stamina, Armor and threat stats to higher than usual levels as a result. I'm not sure if I killed anything past the 1st boss in Karazhan.... but I'm in Black Temple... so who knows?

Thats nice... but then again, i can see the reasoning for the shield, it has huge stam, but my question is, would you wear those items over other properly itemized tanking items with things like dodge, block rating and etc... :)

That being said, if you already have reached a uncrushability and all that jazz, the extra stam is handy, but why not further itemize into expertise and HR?

After realizing that I'm arguing with an author for tankingtips.com, I kind of realise the depth of the shit that I'm in, glad I pack snorkels...

commacozzee
08-01-2008, 05:35 AM
2.36 Defense Rating = 1 Defense Skill

1 Defense Skill = 0.04% miss/dodge/parry/block, and 0.04% less chance to be crit.

25 Defense Skill = 59 Defense Rating = 1% less chance to be crit.

39.4 Resilience = 1% less chance to be crit.

5.6% less chance to be crit = 330.4 Defense Rating = 220.64 Resilience.

itemization-wise, Resilience is 50% more effective than Defense Rating in reaching uncrittable, but offers no avoidance. if you reach uncrittable using Resilience, your next goal should be to replace your Resilience with genuine tanking stats ie stam for EH and defense/dodge/parry for avoidance. any fairly geared tank will not have Resilience (not counting droods ;) ).

note: the game views defense skill as an integer, so there is no difference between 329 and 330 Defense Rating, you'll need 331 Defense Rating (and obviously Resilience comes in integer values, so you really need 221 Resilience).

Vdaan
08-01-2008, 06:55 AM
Can someone tell me what the combined def + resi is "required" for a druid to hit the "uncrittable" rating? I had a guildie (feral druid) say he was uncrittable while sitting at only 415 def. Now I'm not sure if he had any resi backing that up but I know for warriors its 490 and I have yet to see a druid hit the 490 cap, not saying it hasnt been done just that I havent seen it.

Daimon
08-01-2008, 07:00 AM
Well, our former MT used 2 pieces of S1 in gruul w/o any issue. Nobody is saying res is as good as defense; but for sure is easier to get at the tanking entry lvl. If you are starting KZ your raid will thank for having some pvp gear that improve your tanking rather than some low stam dungeon gear.
And in resistance fights where your defense suffer greatly, even going bellow 490, resilience gear helps A LOT.

Soranus
08-01-2008, 07:29 AM
Can someone tell me what the combined def + resi is "required" for a druid to hit the "uncrittable" rating?

Check be.imba.hu, it should tell you how much do you need more. Also, you can use this macro to check if you're uncrittable (it's druid only):

/script DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage(2.6-(GetCombatRatingBonus(CR_DEFENSE_SKILL)*.04+GetCom batRatingBonus(CR_CRIT_TAKEN_MELEE)),1,0.5,0)

veneretio
08-01-2008, 07:51 AM
Thats nice... but then again, i can see the reasoning for the shield, it has huge stam, but my question is, would you wear those items over other properly itemized tanking items with things like dodge, block rating and etc... :)

That being said, if you already have reached a uncrushability and all that jazz, the extra stam is handy, but why not further itemize into expertise and HR?

After realizing that I'm arguing with an author for tankingtips.com, I kind of realise the depth of the shit that I'm in, glad I pack snorkels...
I wore it over the Sha'tar rep shield, the badge shield, Nightbane's shield and even Gruul's Shield. The resilience was a massive advantage on resistance fights (specifically Hydross) at the time.

I should also note that Armstrong (the other one you're arguing with :P) is one of the smartest and strongest writers in the tanking field. You need not look any farther than the http://www.tankspot.com/forums/tankspot-library/31910-devastate-faq.html for proof of his genius and dedication.

Vdaan
08-01-2008, 10:49 AM
Thank Soranus. I tried it but I cant get the macro to work.

ebs2002
08-01-2008, 11:35 AM
That being said, if you already have reached a uncrushability and all that jazz, the extra stam is handy, but why not further itemize into expertise and HR?

He did. And he did it by using Resilience. One piece of gear with resilience can provide the crit immunity that two pieces with defense would provide. So, if he had three different slots to play with, he went with one item with resilience and two items with hit/expertise/block value, rather than having two pieces with defense and one piece with hit/expertise/block value.

Note that the S3 chest has hit on it, as well :)

commacozzee
08-05-2008, 11:10 AM
Can someone tell me what the combined def + resi is "required" for a druid to hit the "uncrittable" rating? I had a guildie (feral druid) say he was uncrittable while sitting at only 415 def. Now I'm not sure if he had any resi backing that up but I know for warriors its 490 and I have yet to see a druid hit the 490 cap, not saying it hasnt been done just that I havent seen it.

druids get 3% less chance to be crit from the talent Survival of the Fittest (i don't know how to link this stuff :( ), so they only need to cover 2.6% from gear:

2.6% less chance to be crit = 65 Defense Skill = 154 Defense Rating = 103 Resilience

defense on druid gear is few and far between, so it's usually helpful for a druid to get some pvp gear with high stam, armor, and resil to make up for it (as said before, it isn't too bad for an undergeared warrior either).

ZurvanDD
08-11-2008, 03:58 AM
Ya i am currently working on my shat rep so that i can make an alchemist stone, already exhaulted with shat sun :) so i am half way there since i had last posted i have had a few gear upgrades so now i am trying to figure out how to stack stam and not sacrfice my def rating even though i have about 40 reslilliance for the uncritable cryteria. Any one have any suggestions for chest enchant i heard the 150 health one is like 13 additional stam.

thanks again for any tips or suggestions