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View Full Version : Starting Karazhan - ways to speed up?



SionaAmanThul
05-09-2008, 05:21 AM
Hi all,

I appreciate you reading this and giving me your thoughts.

I'm part of a casual guild that only recently began Kara. We have done three runs so far and haven't downed Moroes. Typically, we will raid twice a week for about 3 hours at a time.

As you'd imagine, we have 70s that are undergeared for Kara- sporting greens and blues. We do have a well geared healer druid, a feral druid and myself. Here is my armory: Vitharr (http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Aman%27Thul&n=Vitharr).

We are having big problems with Moroes and, quite frankly, we're moving through trash very slowly. We only have one priest, two pallies and a hunter for cc. For Moroes, controlling the adds has been a nightmare.

So, my question is geared specifically to clear Moroes and also to move along quicker. Should I (can I) and the feral druid OT tank Moroes plus the three adds (one being shackled)? I believe this may be the best shot we have until we get another priest and their gear gets better. I think I have the gear to multitank that encounter but wanted to get your thoughts and advice.

I'm also thinking of multitanking a lot of the trash too and not using so much cc.

Well, sorry for the ramble. Thanks.

Vitharr

Kryax
05-09-2008, 05:35 AM
Hi m8,

Moroes is a tricky fight when you've only just started raiding and your gears a little low. I wouldn't advise tanking more than Moroes in your current gear, your stamina is good but your avoidance is low and you will take a lot of damage that early raid geared healers will strugle against. Before you start each Moroes encounter quickly check Moroes - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft (http://www.wowwiki.com/Moroes) until such a time you remember each add setup. You need to take the CC approach which will increase your raids skills exponentially for help with bosses to come.

You will aways have a mob you'll want to burn down fast at the start (usually the holy priest) and a shackle which will need to be maintained until the end of the fight. Your OT will pick up an add (usually the prot warrior) keep him stuck to himself while he gets second aggro on Moroes. You should also have a hunter/mage kiting the 4th add (usually the dps warrior) away from the raid, kill him secondly. Then take down the OT's add and move onto Moroes (keeping the shackle up at all times) until he's dead, then finish off the shackled target. The wowwiki guide is alot more detailed, although the fight atm for you is a bit of a mare it's well worth the persistence, your raid will gain a great deal of experience with cc encounters and raid communication.

GL & HF

dlongest
05-09-2008, 08:07 AM
I agree with Kryax. If you have 2 priests and a hunter, your CC should be effective. Definitely check WoWWiki so you can figure out which adds you've got.

The s priest and holy priest (both women) are the most dangerous. Usually I would shackle the holy and burn the s priest immediately. She does not require a tank to be killed. If you get the holy pally, shackle her as well. If you get both holy priest and holy pally, shackle the pally and kill the priest fast (does not require a tank).

Have the hunter trap one of the targets (ret pally or arms warrior). Make sure he does not stand on top of the trap if he's trapping the ret pally as he could get stunned and the guy will take off for the healers. In your case, you could also think about having the pallies chain-fear one of the adds. If you're lucky enough to get the prot warrior, have your OT hold it while holding 2nd threat on Moroes. The prot warrior doesn't hit for much at all, has very few special abilities, but does have high armor and HP. Let the OT use him as a rage battery.

You can try:
- Kill S priest or Holy priest, shackle the other woman. Have your pallies chain fear one of the adds, trap the other. Or instead of chain-fearing, have the hunter or a mage kite that target. This requires pretty good skill on behalf of the hunter to keep 1 trapped while kiting another. Kill order would be S priest -> feared target -> trapped target, Moroes -> shackled target.

When Moroes vanishes, call it out on Vent. Have your priest recast the shackle at that point. Remember to have ppl clear their own Garrote if they are able (Cloak of Shadows, Ice Block, dwarven Stoneform).

Once you go all-in on Moroes, everyone should be able to pop their trinkets and just burn him like crazy as you'll have had at least a 2 minute headstart in threat. Can have the hunter MD to you at that point as well for a little extra threat if you think you need it.

Have fun!

Daniel

Synza
05-09-2008, 09:18 AM
(my keyboard is broke... so bear wit me)
Your ear is better tan mine, and Ive downed moroes a few times, wit only 1 cc, also. Te problem will be te dps is not ood enouf for kara yet. If teyre undereared, dont take tem. Tey will just dra te rest of te team down. Recruit people wit better ear or make your raid team do some eroics to et some better ear before you do kara.

Also, you are NOT uncrittable. Dont attempt kara witout tat vital 490 defence. Your ealers will not be able to cope wit da crits.

dlongest
05-09-2008, 09:38 AM
I agree with Synza, DPS can be a limiter on Moroes. The fight becomes a DPS race between the raid and Moroes' Garrotes building up.

Siona: I would worry that your dodge is a bit low. You have great gear, so I'd expect your dodge to be over 20% at least. I might think about replacing your helm glyph with the +16 def/+17 dodge one from KoT. You have well over the EH needed for Kara, especially where you guys are right now. But you'll want more dodge for Prince. And it's possible you have some avoidance gear that you're not waering (Barbed Choker of the Maiden, get it and hold onto it, I only wear it for a couple fights instead of the Brooch). Hopefully Moroes will give up his belt to you, it's a solid piece for a while. The 2.4 belt is awesome as well if you dont' have another item in mind. And the new 2.4 ring is worth over 1% dodge by itself.

To Synza: he is uncrittable. He has 486 defense, this lowers chance to be crit by 5.44% (not the needed 5.6%). However, he is using the S2 shield, S2 shoulders, which gives him 51 resilience and has a glyph for another 20 or an extra 1.8% less chance to be crit. This puts him over the 5.6% needed.

Daniel

Dismember
05-09-2008, 09:43 AM
The reality is that you are only one part of the team, albeit a very important part. You could be geared out the ass, but if the rest of the team isn't equal to the challenge you will fail. The reverse also holds true. My first few times in Kara I cleared the place MTing in greens/blues (save for NB, who clobbered me), not because I'm uber but because the rest of the group was pretty OP.

My advice would be to schedule heroics within the guild to help folks get geared for Kara. Also, simply getting familiar with the encounters can be a huge hurdle. You might want to think about raiding a third night, or maybe extending your raid times a bit while you are progressing and folks are learning the fights.

Leytur
05-09-2008, 01:24 PM
Please include the armory of your MT healer. That can make a world of difference.

You are similarly geared to me. You could probably take Moroes and 1 add. Like either the prot warrior or ret pally.

Mark skull as the clothy and nuke them. Mark X as the PITA add that needs to die but will take longer. Make sure X is being tanked by someone who can take some hits--a Druid, Shaman, or Hunter (although we'll need a hunter below). You can also insert a Pally fear here. Make sure everyone is assissting properly. If you have a DPSer trying to throw DOTS on Moroes just to pad the stats when they should be nuking skull they need a talking to.

Have your priest shackle one for the entire fight. Remind them to set a focus before pulling. Make this one of the adds that dispels CC. Have them reshackle with about 5 seconds left on the shackle. Don't have them reshackle any more often than that. Make sure this priest has some spell hit. Shadow priest is perfect but even if it's your healer have them trade out some gear for +hit. A set of hands with the enchant does wonders.

Have your hunter chain trap the third add. Even if its an add that dispels CC as long as he's far enough away from the shackle you don't need to worry. So chain trap him in a corner.

Burn the three adds and then Moroes. Then shackle. Many groups do 2 adds then Moroes but that's if you're priest heavy.

Lack of success on this fight is definitely not because of your gear. So you may want to motivate your DPS to get upgrades ASAP. Even to the point of researching it for them.

Xperl will tell you how many people are assissting a target. It will be hard if you're tanking. But if you have a trustworthy DPS'er with Xperl they can tell you how many people share that person' target. If it's below 5 you're in trouble.

EDIT: MORE INFO ON SHACKLE

Shackle can be resisted at 4 points. . . the initial cast, and then every 15 seconds after that. This is why you don't want to shackle every 20 seconds or so. You're actually INCREASING the chances it gets resisted. Shackle it--if it resists reshackle it. Once it's shackled let it be. If the priest has the target focused just wait until the clockhand looking counter has gotten past the :45 mark and then reshackle. Doing it during a vanish is the easiest way to do it but only if it's past that :45 mark.

Thedom
05-09-2008, 02:23 PM
Just my 2 cents it will be a pain to tank the prot warrior as well as moroes because of his stun and his disarm. This coupled with Moroes using blind and gouge makes it a pain to get a good rotation going for threat.

SionaAmanThul
05-09-2008, 03:22 PM
Thanks for all the help, folks. Really appreciate your thoughts.

We do have a young guild. The more experienced folks have filled gear holes with PvP gear so my defensive stats are not as good as they could be. I can certainly swap some stam gems for def or dodge and increase my avoidance. Obviously, at the cost of hp.

We are trying to run heroics in between kara runs to gear up those that are undergeared. We are having trouble cc and dps so we're trying to focus on that. Our MT healer is geared in mostly PvP stuff. He logged in his combat gear so I won't link him now.

I will try some of the strats you propose tomorrow and report back. Again, thanks.

Kerchunk
05-09-2008, 06:57 PM
Also, you are NOT uncrittable. Dont attempt kara witout tat vital 490 defence. Your ealers will not be able to cope wit da crits.First of all, he is uncrittable. 71 Resilience means he only needs 445 Defense to remain uncrittable.

Secondly, this is a falsehood. People seem to think if you're at 485 you're going to be getting crit'd left and right, but remember we're talking about a sliding scale here. If your chance to be crit is like 0.5%, you're going to be fine for Karazhan. Yes, occasionally you might die due to an inopportune critical hit, but it's not going to spell the difference between success and failure in the instance as a whole.

Leytur
05-11-2008, 11:38 AM
Just my 2 cents it will be a pain to tank the prot warrior as well as moroes because of his stun and his disarm. This coupled with Moroes using blind and gouge makes it a pain to get a good rotation going for threat.

Threat shouldn't be an issue with Moroes anyway since you've got a good minute to two minutes to get a lead on him.

Juised
05-11-2008, 04:27 PM
from his avoidance and hp my opinion = good to tank prince and anything else in kara.

for moroes tank 1 or 2 adds and moroes yourself
have the ot pickup another add.

have a fury warrior or maybe a rogue stunlock/evasion tank one cloth add ( they dont hit hard ) and burn it down fast.

easy fight tbh.

pre raid ( blues / crafted epic ) geared healers should be able to keep you and your off tank up if they are decently geared

SionaAmanThul
05-14-2008, 06:04 AM
Hey, thanks for all your input. Unfortunately, our key healer is on vacation and we haven't gone back to Kara yet. I've changed some things around and have increased my dodge/avoidance while decreasing my hp a bit.

I only have the Strength of the Untamed and the brooch I'm wearing. I may switch to the SotU neck if I need more avoidance. Hoping Maiden drops the neck for me.

SionaAmanThul
05-23-2008, 04:10 AM
Killed Moroes today. Thanks for all your help with this. Now on to Maiden.

SionaAmanThul
05-26-2008, 07:05 AM
Maiden and Opera event went down today.

Just an update.

Leytur
05-26-2008, 08:01 AM
Awesome. Progress is progress. :) Grats!

Curator is really the first DPS check of the zone. Let us know how it goes!

Macksie
05-27-2008, 03:48 AM
Good work, was about to add in some other options (Turn undead from your two Palas) for help with the adds at Moroes but obviously not needed! Good work on progress and yes you will find Curator the biggest gear check now. If you have two palas dont forget to do kings and wisdom on all casters as Salvation shouldnt be an issue apart from Healers.

For your priest get him/her to use Shadowfiend on the first Evocation and they will be at almost full mana by the end of it, then it should be off cooldown for the 3rd Evocation.

Warlocks should time a Curse of Doom to land during evocation as well - just trinket+amp curse (if they have it)+doom at about 55 secs to Evocation.

All dps should be on flares and make sure they take down the last flare BEFORE starting on Curator on an Evocation. Once you start gearing up then you can look at moving 1 dps to be on Curator at all times and then with further progression have your MT/OT pick up the last flare whilst all dps take down curator and then take the last flare as the new flares begin.

We are a guild with mostly Kara and some badge gear, we raid only Kara and sometimes ZA (3 bosses down so far but no chest yet) and Curator normally only gets 1 Evocation break, or sometimes 2 but doesnt start flares again.

Good luck with progress!

SionaAmanThul
05-31-2008, 12:34 PM
OK, we've one-shot Attumen, Moroes, Maiden and Opera. We're stuck at Curator. It seems that the dps isn't able to bring down the flares fast enough.

Not sure what to do. How does a tank politely tell the dpsers that they need better gear? Should I just try to aggro the flare to me and the Hateful Bolt soaker so that it won't chase them and they can focus on dpsing it down?

Any thoughts are appreciated!

Entore
05-31-2008, 05:16 PM
Tanking the flares is messy and I really don't think that tactic would do you much good - especially if the DPS is the problem to begin with.

Other than that there's not much I can say with the little info I've got. How many healers do you use? What is their opinion on the fight?

Ideally, one flare must die before another one spawns. The DPS shouldn't really run back and forth, attacking Curator as soon as a flare die but rather stay and run after a flare dies and then move directly onto the next one.

Telling your DPS they need to improve shouldn't be a problem if your word has any weight in the guild.

Leytur
06-01-2008, 02:01 AM
Are you MT along with being raid leader? The raid leader's job is to analyze why successes AND failures happen and address them. So if the DPS really IS the problem the RL needs to check their gear, enchants/gems, and spec to make sure they're getting the most out of it. If there's an upgrade at exalted X faction for some guy and he's 2000 rep away well shoot he needs to get off his butt. Those sorts of things add up when they're done raid wide.

SionaAmanThul
06-01-2008, 07:31 AM
Curator's dead.

Thanks. I'm not the Raid Leader just the MT. Illhoof kids our butts because no one knew the fight. We did switch around gear on the dpsers and they executed better.

We'll see tomorrow.

rustyboy
06-02-2008, 12:35 AM
I would suggest if your prot warrior is in kara and is not 490+ def then he needs to do some more 5 mans.

I would not make the Prot add on moroes as the one thats getting OT'd, he's a pain in the arse for the OT because he needs to maintain 2nd on threat on Moroes and getting disarmed and stun wont help. If you have a druid I would make him the OT and the prot warrior tank Moroes as the Druid will get rage through his damage and his Swipe ability makes it easy mode to maintain 2nd threat on Moroes.

A fury warrior or druid OT makes Illhoof a lot easier as they can kill Kilrek really fast.

Macksie
06-02-2008, 03:02 AM
Gratz on Curator - he is a gear check but he also provides some nice gear upgrades so the nice thing is that you gear up quicker now that you have killed him you get better gear and so it gets easier. Just make sure your dps stay on flares at all times and only dps on Curator ONLY if last flare is down.

As for Illhoof - he is a big test of healers mana pools, and your AoE dps team. We started on him with just a lock (seed of corruption) and a mage. We had our OT gear half and half tank and dps gear and take down Kilrek along with one or other dps as with Kilrek down Illhoof takes more damage.

All members stand quick near the sacrifice circle so that no imps can go walk about then we tank Illhoof and Kilrek right next to the sacrifice circle as you must make sure those Demon Chains get killed straight away - they both really hurt whoever is in there and also heal Illhoof. Macro of "/tar demon chain" really helps there.

From me having done both Lock AoE and also OT Kilrek the key is:

1. OT and a dps member (rogue or retidin or kitty) take out Kilrek
2. Lock and mage on AoE, from a lock point of view I just put my seed into Illhoof as he is always taking damage and it helps take down Kilrek as well as the imps, I rotated doing 1 seed then 1 shadow bolt. If they are Affliction then just fully dot Illhoof and then seed once every two global cool downs. If they seed too often they will go OOM very quickly. Any mana regen they can get is good (2 part T3.5 with dark pact on imp, pet food for mana regen, getting BoW always as threat is rarely a problem, mana oil etc)
3. All other dps are on Illhoof unless someone is sacrificed then they should all be on chains - including MT!

Dont forget that Mage and ice block, palas can bubble out of demon chains. Our first kill we had 3 palas (we are casual guide and take whoever is online) and they were the only 3 that were sacrificed so we were very lucky and able to concentrate on killing Illhoof.

GL!

Shortypop
06-02-2008, 03:17 AM
Personally I'd focus on getting Aran down next, he controls almost all of that trash, Illhoof can be skipped if needed or learnt later without the pressure of respawning trash.

Aran's also a good fight for teaching the raid to move and stay still, plus it gives you a chance to put on some dps gear and give the dps a run for their money :)