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Gumbyy
05-07-2008, 11:42 PM
I really don't see the point, I've been theory crafting this and looking at how much dodge and hp you end up with and it doesn't seem worth it. Am I missing something I need to be filled in on?

Do the twins do something special I don't know about?

XaV post here your gear baffles me.

Dany
05-08-2008, 03:52 AM
I don't really like socketing for dodge neither, unless you're building an avoidance set or on really particular situation (T6 legs?).

But remember all Sunwell mobs have a buff that reduce your avoidance by 25%.

EH vs avoidance war will last forever ^^ All is about balance.

Zph
05-08-2008, 08:30 AM
I honestly think it's just that in Sunwell avoidance > EH. The radiance buff makes us lose 25% of our avoidance, so the mobs are hitting more frequently. At the same time though, they're hitting for slightly less (even though they do hit for a lot) than they would without the radiance buff.

My personal experience has given my guild more success with our tanks wearing more avoidance. I know once I pick up some more pieces from Sunwell I'm going to socket for more avoidance than I currently am.

Rak
05-08-2008, 11:18 AM
After you have tier 6, you will meet EH minimums without gems at all. This means that not socketing for stamina doesn't really have a negative effect at all. So, why not socket for avoidance?

Dragaan
05-09-2008, 11:26 PM
After you have tier 6, you will meet EH minimums without gems at all. This means that not socketing for stamina doesn't really have a negative effect at all. So, why not socket for avoidance?

You could also say, "why not socket for EH?".. I'm still slightly confused by all the recent avoidance gemming.

Hypatia
05-10-2008, 03:33 AM
You could also say, "why not socket for EH?".. I'm still slightly confused by all the recent avoidance gemming.

See Zph's post, two above your, for an answer to this. :)

In short: There has always been a dynamic tension between the safest levels of effective health and avoidance. In the past, the majority of available gear provided sufficient avoidance while requiring gems and enchants to boost EH. In T6.5 fights, the baseline has changed to a point where choosing to max out stamina gems is no longer the only obvious choice.


It all comes down to the question of whether you can acquire enough additional EH to survive longer when bad stuff is happening vs. whether you can acquire enough additional avoidance to significantly decrease the chances that you'll get hit many times while bad stuff is happening.

The traditional argument in favor of EH is that you're going to be getting heals anyway, and that no level of avoidance can completely eliminate the chances of a unlucky burst.

However, a lot of people are finding that this argument only holds up when you have sufficient levels of avoidance to decrease the chances of "bad bursts" in the first place. A few things can cause problems with that assumption:

The first is bad gearing, which has not generally been an issue, since historically most good tanking gear has had plenty of avoidance on it, and could use more EH. As a result, this leads to the general emphasis on EH gemming and enchanting for gear. You're going to have enough avoidance, and be a bit low on EH, so there's no good reason to gem for avoidance over EH.

The second is fights with a lot of environmental hazards involving movement. Archimonde is a great example of this, as healers in various areas will be chased away from the MT or be distracted by secondary healing tasks. However, gear at this level still generally has plenty of avoidance even after gemming for EH.

The thing that's making people seriously re-examine gemming in particular and consider dropping some stamina gems in favor of avoidance gems is the reduction of avoidance by the radiance buff in the Sunwell. This is really kind of equivalent to the "gearing" category above, only it's something added on after gear in a specific area of the game. Based on gear available at that level, combined with the avoidance negation of the zone, tanks who gem for EH end up geared lower on avoidance than is safe and higher on effective health than they need to be at the same time.

As a result, it's not really hard to understand why the idea of gemming for avoidance has come back into serious discussion: For almost the first time in BC tanks on the latest progression content are finding themselves having to scrape to find the avoidance they need rather than having plenty of avoidance and having to scrape to find EH.


Further notes on avoidance and unlucky bursts: The nave understanding of this is to look at the raw chances of getting hit. If you compare 33% avoidance to 66% avoidance, you see that the 33% avoidance tank is getting hit two times out of every three hits, while the 66% avoidance tank is getting hit one time out of every three hits. The dangerous assumption of prioritizing avoidance over EH is that "Oh, the 66% avoidance tank is only taking half as much damage as the 33% avoidance tank", and that's what the past arguments about avoidance vs. EH have been about: You can't "smooth" out the damage taken, because this is a stochastic process.

This is where the "oh, but bad bursts can happen no matter what!" argument comes from. In both cases, there exists a chance that the tank will take two or three hits in a rowand it's necessary to have enough effective health to handle this kind of bad burst case.

The opposite side to this issue, however, comes when you're looking at combined probabilities. We can agree that multiple hits in a row is a possibility in both cases. However, we haven't quantified exactly what the chance of that occurrence is:


String of n hits
| Avoidance
| 20.00% 30.00% 40.00% 50.00% 60.00% 70.00% 80.00%
-- ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------
1 80.00% 70.00% 60.00% 50.00% 40.00% 30.00% 20.00%
2 64.00% 49.00% 36.00% 25.00% 16.00% 9.00% 4.00%
3 51.20% 34.30% 21.60% 12.50% 6.40% 2.70% 0.80%
4 40.96% 24.01% 12.96% 6.25% 2.56% 0.81% 0.16%
5 32.77% 16.81% 7.78% 3.13% 1.02% 0.24% 0.03%
6 26.21% 11.76% 4.67% 1.56% 0.41% 0.07% 0.01%
7 20.97% 8.24% 2.80% 0.78% 0.16% 0.02% 0.00%
8 16.78% 5.76% 1.68% 0.39% 0.07% 0.01% 0.00%

This chart illustrates pretty well the exponential nature of this behavior. I think the best place to look when thinking about the impact of Sunwell Radiance is the difference beween the 60% and 40% columns, and particularly at the range around 3-5 hits in a row. Going from 60% to 40% is close to what the Sunwell tank is going to experience from Sunwell Radiance, and the 3-5 hits in a row range is in my experience the biggest danger zone in terms of healers being distracted or otherwise unable to respond to the emergency.

A tank with 40% avoidance is 3.4x as likely to get hit three times in a row, 5.1x as likely to get hit four times in a row, and 7.6x as likely to get hit five times in a row as a tank with 60% avoidance.

Those are some pretty big numbers. And, of course, the tank with 40% avoidance still has about a 1/21 chance to get hit six times in a row, while the 60% avoidance tank has dropped to about 1/244.


Looking at these numbers, I hope, will make it pretty obvious why a tank who has suddenly dropped from 60% avoidance to 35% avoidance would consider adding more avoidance at the expense of effective health.

Xav
05-10-2008, 01:57 PM
I don't appreciate the tone in which you requested I post here, to start with.

I socket dodge in the useful socket bonuses, and stamina still in the blues. There's no point to throw away perfectly good socket bonuses. There's also enough stamina to go around now to survive everything, and I've still got far more than the vast majority of tanks, while at the same time having enough gear choices (that aren't necessarily worn on armory) to give me high avoidance when needed.

This topic has been covered dozens of times on these forums, EJ, and the WoW R&D (now D&R) forums.

My gear choice works for me and my guild, and I will continue to do as I like. My gear isn't skewed toward one thing too heavily, but what I wear on Armory is often not what I actually wear for boss fights. I have a high avoidance set, and a high stamina set, and a threat set. Armory is just, more often than not, something "balanced", and likely just all the highest iLvL/sunwell pieces I have on, or whatever I forgot to take off and logged out in. I didn't socket ALL dodge gems in the new Sunwell pieces, for example, I still put solid blues in the blue sockets rather than an awful hybrid gem.

You have to ask yourself what the point of having more health is, and then what the point of having more avoidance is. Does one make a difference over the other in your guild? If you don't know how to answer that question, you've got a lot more reading/studying to do.

Indris
05-10-2008, 03:59 PM
Try tanking Illidan in a maxxed avoidance set, with like 95% to avoid being hit after his dualwield penalty to hit is applied. If that isn't fun, I don't know what is.

wrylac
05-16-2008, 10:22 AM
I don't socket for avoidance or threat. I do swap trinkets and my ranged weapon to increase avoidance or threat (I'll also swap dps gear for threat) when necessary. Overall it's the druid that has the harder time staying up on Brutallus.