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Ciderhelm
05-05-2008, 12:35 AM
TankSpot Podcast #12
Measuring Your Effectiveness
Patrick O'Callahan "Ciderhelm" and Joshua Allen "Lore"
38:48


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http://media.libsyn.com/media/ciderhelm/Measuring_Yourself.mp3

Podcast Information
This podcast covers how you can effectively measure yourself as a raid and 5-man tank. It covers player interactions, situational awareness, mods, cooldowns, and gear issues. It also answers member-submitted questions regarding 490 Defense for Illidan flame tanks, how Expertise measures up, and how to handle a large number of abilities at once while tanking.

When available, Donors (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/general-discussion/36281-tankspot-donation-information.html) will see both the outlines and podcasts in advance of their post date.


Pre-Recording Outline
The following is a rough bullet point created prior to recording. Additions were made during recording that are not represented in this.

News
-Fortifications (4th Edition)
-Marmots can't really be considered "woodland creatures" their habitat is Alpine and sub-alpine which are generally considered above tree line.

Questions

Introduction
Tank is only role that has synergy with both healers and with DPS
-Talk w/ them!
-They're only pure evil humans

Doing below 600 TPS regularly? (Warrior)
If so, your rotation may be wrong.

Mods/Tools
--Omen is wrong, buggy
---DPS wasn't catching me!
--Don't trust it
WWS
--TPS calculator in Theory & Articles forum
--Compare to other guilds
Recount
--Death reports (broken at the moment)
EavesDrop/Grim Reaper
Lore's charts!

Cooldowns
Are you adjusting for latency?
Are you always on cooldowns for rotation abilities?
Do you know when to use trinkets?
Are you able to watch healers?
Are you able to watch the encounter and timers?

For 5-mans
Quickly preventing mobs from attacking healers?
Assisting in getting mobs off DPS? (assuming they aren't awful)
Do you keep trying instead of giving up mid-pull?

Gear
Looking at the whole of the gear?
-Do you understand stats instead of just looking at EH or Avoidance
-Do you understand clear upgrades for content coming up
-Listen to the gear podcast and check the forums for more
Why are you dying?
-Took too much damage too fast -> get more EH
-Healers ran out of mana -> get more avoidance
--This happens a lot in Sunwell


References
New Warrior Reference Guide (In Progress) (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/warrior-reference/)
Protection Ability Rotation (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/warrior-reference/37005-protection-ability-rotation.html)
Coolyo.org (http://coolyo.org/)
Roana's WWS to TPS Converter (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/theory-articles/36409-wws-tps-converter.html)
bagelbite's WWS to TPS Converter WebApplication (http://rehfeld.us/wow/wws-tps/)



Corrections & Clarifications
Got any?


Did you find this subject utterly boring? Please, suggest topics and discussions, and ask questions for us to include in our upcoming podcasts. :)

Canadianpimp
05-05-2008, 01:14 AM
Tertiary!

tobarstep
05-05-2008, 06:11 AM
Any suggestions on a mod to let me know visually when abilities are off cooldown or otherwise ready to use? I'm using Parrot for my combat text. It lets me know when abilities like Revenge or Overpower are up, but I can't seem to reliably get a mod to tell me when my Shield Block is off or nearing the end of it's cooldown. I hate having to look down at the action bar buttons to see this information. I'd like it presented to me, front-and-center with the rest of my information.

Edit: One thing I just noticed is Parrot may not be fully working with 2.4. I may switch back to SCT until Parrot2 is released, but I'm not sure SCT has the options I'm looking for either.

malona
05-05-2008, 06:23 AM
55 degrees celsius would be about 131 degrees fahrenheit. Pretty damn hot, I'd say.

Kavtor
05-05-2008, 08:09 AM
You mention that you should have a second warrior keep up demo shout and thunderclap. While a fury / arms warrior should certainly be given demo shout, it's going to be a lot more frustrating for a DPS warrior to keep up TC than it is the tank. He's got to stance dance at a rage loss, rebuild rage (since they won't have tac mastery), cast, then dance again.

TC isn't terrible threat, so it shouldn't be a big deal to slip it in place of a devastate every 25-30 seconds (depending on how worried you are about incoming damage if you get a resist), unless you're really, really having threat problems. In which case you can probably afford to not debuff the mob anyway so you get more rage.

Stroja
05-05-2008, 08:36 AM
Just a note: Lore mentioned expertise being more valuable than spelldamage for a paladin at around 800 spelldamage. Dorvan's conclusion was expertise rating was equal to spelldamage at around 825 TPS, not spelldamage.

Kazeyonoma
05-05-2008, 09:21 AM
Nice Podcast, good info.

Honorshammer
05-05-2008, 12:20 PM
Coolyo.org seems to only work for Warriors.

Knaughty
05-05-2008, 05:01 PM
Quaternary!

Joeker
05-05-2008, 05:07 PM
Everyone thought I was weird because I said I click healthstones, pots, shield wall and trinkets as well as last stand. I really never liked having them key bound due to the fact of either having a hard time reaching it or accidentally hitting it and wasting a long cool down. Now I know I am not alone. Great podcast as well keep em' coming.

Knaughty
05-05-2008, 06:05 PM
I'm having trouble working out what my actual TPS is for a "stand and deliver" fight because I don't tank any of those...

I'm "trash only" in Hyjal so that our bears and prot warriors have something to do, though I did tank Archi one week, and I've done Kaz a couple of times to prove a point.

In BT I only MT Mother & Illidan (switched from Flame tank to MT after our warrior emo-transferred). I may ask to tank Teron this week so I have a decent TPS test.

For Mother:

I wear some SR - about 200-ish buffed, 3 pieces?
The cow silences frequently. Think Maiden.
DPS are totally gimped anyway, as they're in full SR


With all that, I posted 655 + 105 from heal-procs = 760 TPS.

At Illidan I posted 360+104=464 from heals, but the fight is full of phases where I'm not tanking, so it's a useless metric. For P1 I blow wings and DPS is pretty much uncapped other than our top couple of warlocks. Last warrior kill before the emo-quit was 451 personal, so I guess I still have some catching up to do, but his gear was much better than mine.

What's a good fight to measure tankadin TPS on, given we have a balanced tanking team of war/druid/me for most runs?

Magnusharkov
05-06-2008, 04:48 AM
Anyone know if its possible to get a version of coolyo for paladins too? I can't seem to use the offline one at work properly.

Knaughty
05-06-2008, 04:46 PM
Interestingly, Coolyo and the Ruby Script give different answers on the same parse. Awesome...

Anyway, I have to use the Ruby version because I'm not a warrior.

Lore: Could you post your TPS according to the Ruby script from your last Brute kill? We had Kalec at 20% last week with a shitty raid makeup (for example: me healing in my leet T-4/T-5 healing gear the first time I'd ever had points ion the Holy tree....) So we're expecting to get to the enrage this week... and maybe kill him, unsure how hard the enrage is.

Anyway, I'm going to MT Teron this week to do a TPS test, my theorycraft says I want to post 1500 TPS if I'm going to keep DPS below me or about 1200 if I'm willing to cope with the "range cap". That assumes rogues and warlocks at 2400 DPS, not using shatter/vanish.

Danach
05-06-2008, 05:27 PM
Coolyo and the Ruby script calculate healing threat differently. I looked around trying to find some hard numbers on healing threat but was unable to. I also tried to duplicate the healing threat results from coolyo and wasn't able to do that either(though I didn't try that hard). If you can find me the math/proofs for threat by healing I'll update the script.

Saturnia
05-07-2008, 01:56 AM
One quick question: when you said that one thing to see in the WWS reports if you're doing things right it's that the first ability on the list should not be White Melee damage, you were referring to just damage or threat ( (abilty damage threat + ability innate threat) x threat multiplier )?
I was looking at one my report from SSC and most of my damage came from Swings, but on Roana's wws-tps I got SS and HS above Swings.
So I'm doing things right?! :D

/Sat.

Ciderhelm
05-07-2008, 02:19 AM
It depends on the encounter, Saturnia, and I doubt I gave that section the justice it deserved. Can you PM me your WWS?

Ladina
05-09-2008, 02:30 AM
I do enjoy listening to your podcasts alot and find them very helpfull. tho in this one I lack some info. you really gave the Omen threatmeter quite a slagging on affectiveness for measuring aggro. but if you don't like Omen. what do you use instead?

ps. not all bears are sweaty and stinky ^^

Ciderhelm
05-09-2008, 02:41 AM
you really gave the Omen threatmeter quite a slagging on affectiveness for measuring aggro. but if you don't like Omen. what do you use instead?
For measuring TPS during the encounter? Nothing. There's no accurate tool for doing so. What we do is check our TPS by looking at WWS reports after the raid.

That's not the same as looking at our Threat on Omen and judging when players are about to pull aggro, which is something we do.

Nuberino
05-09-2008, 09:44 AM
Is there a tool that would let us calculate our theoretical max threat given our specs/gear/buffs -- like a maxtps.com :P ? It would be handy to see a good distribution of TPS on specific fights given gear levels.

The Lurker Below
T4 Warrior - 400-600 TPS
T5 Warrior - 500-700 TPS
T6 Warrior - 700-900 TPS

Hydross
....

Tidewalker
....

-------------------------

I find when I run my TPS through Coolio on any fight but a pure stand there and tank it type fight it is a lot lower than I would hope for. But my dps which is just now starting to nip at my heels (and only one or two members really but even they have threat drops...) don't seem to be threat capped by any means. I know I can pick up my roation a bit better. Most fights my rotation seems closer to ss, rev, dev x 3 (or 4) - instead of ss, rev, dev x 2 so I know I can up my threat a bit, but I don't really know where I should be at.

----

/sigh I can build one I suppose... not like I don't have anything to do this weekend :p

Lavache
05-09-2008, 12:24 PM
Everyone thought I was weird because I said I click healthstones, pots, shield wall and trinkets as well as last stand. I really never liked having them key bound due to the fact of either having a hard time reaching it or accidentally hitting it and wasting a long cool down. Now I know I am not alone. Great podcast as well keep em' coming.

i used to have shield wall bound to backspace, since its an easy key to hit in a panic. occasionally when attempting to type something out before a boss pull and i wouldnt have my chat-edit box open... taunt buddy graciously informed the raid that i had activated shield wall and would need additional healing...

Danach
05-09-2008, 01:03 PM
coolyo has top 20 for each boss now. There still hasn't been enough reports to really get a good sampling, however it still gives a good indication on what people's parses are looking like.

Nuberino
05-09-2008, 01:08 PM
I would imagine that in time that will be really skewed to the upper end of things and it wont give people a good idea of what a tank's TPS is when they are actually at that stage of progression though.

Paramount
05-09-2008, 11:53 PM
Don't know if anyone answered your question about a mod for cooldown timers tobarstep, but I personally use hourglass. It displays two sets of bars, a smaller one and a larger one (smaller for long CDs and the larger for CDs that are about to expire). Both sets of bars are adjustable through /hourglass by enabling the show anchor option. Both are also scalable.

Hope that helps.

Bosk
05-15-2008, 02:46 AM
Lore mentioned a calculator/table where you could see the dps your threat output would allow from various classes in the raid.

Could you add that to the shownotes links?

Kazeyonoma
05-15-2008, 09:00 AM
added the link of bagelbite's tps converter for 3 tanking classes to resources.

Leytur
05-16-2008, 01:58 PM
I just finished listening to this pocast. Good stuff. A question and a comment:

#1 You mention looking at WWS reports and that if swing is your top dmg ability you're doing things wrong. So I checked my latest. Luckily Heroic Strike s my top dmg ability. Then I got to thinking--it should be possible to look at the ratio of one ability to the other to see how close you came to "perfect" rotations. For instance, you would have twice as many devastates as SS and Rev and SS and Rev would be equal.

With a 1.6s sword, I had 112 swings, 34SS, and 30 Rev. GCD being ALMOST equal to a swing I'd have to say I hit SS and Rev almost as often as I could. No?

Anyways my comment:

Omen may not be an ACCURATE way to track TPS but it IS a precise way to track TPS. If, over the course of a 5 minute fight, I glance at Omen every 30 seconds and each time it is within . . . say. . . 200 TPS of each other I can generally say--OK according to Omen I did 1200 TPS. Now this is NOT what my TPS was. But it is a benchmark I can use when switching gear or comparing myself to other tanks. So if another guy tanks the same fight and I see his TPS average out to 1000 I can be pretty sure I out TPS him.

Imagine there's a scale that's 50 pounds off. If you get on and it says you weight 300 pounds it's inaccurate. But if another dude gets on and weighs 250 you know he weighs less than you regardless of his actual weight.

So Omen IS important in measuring our effectiveness as long as you realize how it works. It will overexagerate burst TPS and . . . whatever the opposite of that is. But it is still useful.

I should add that I ALWAYS advise other tanks to hit /omen toggle so that they aren't tempted to look at it in the first place. As tanks, we should be putting out as much threat as we can all the time. So looking at Omen and saying "oh wow they're catching me in threat!" shouldn't really cause you to do anything differently. If there was something you could be doing to raise threat. . . well. . . you should be doing it already!