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grinner
05-03-2008, 06:19 AM
Hi

Is Archimonde an avoidance fight for a main tank?

Which fights are an avoidance fight and how would one tell if they are or not? I was told slow hard hitting bosses are avoidance fights at first, now am told opposite.


I first tanked Archimonde with like 18k unbuffed health, and maybe 30% avoidance. My health dropped fast.

Later I wore an avoidance set to Archimonde, 16k unbuffed health & close to 60% avoidance. I could avoid many hits in a row, my uptime was high, and asked main healers "Pepsi challenge time!! Is this gear set easier to keep me up in compared to last??" and all healers told me this avoidance set was much better.

I asked on warrior forums, they gave me conflicting answers to what they said before.




Is Archimonde an avoidance fight, and how can I tell if a fight is an avoidance fight in the first place?

Thank you

Worldie
05-03-2008, 11:53 AM
Archimonde is not a Avoidance fight, but... really 30% avoidance is LOW and i mean LOW

There is no such thing as avoidance fights, in all situations EH > Avoidance. But at that level of gear you are supposed to have at least 50% avoidance in every moment.

Esillymidget
05-03-2008, 12:30 PM
What the hell were you wearing to get that low?!

Sair
05-03-2008, 01:55 PM
It's an avoidance fight.

grinner
05-03-2008, 05:34 PM
What the hell were you wearing to get that low?!

file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/grinner/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot.jpg http://ctprofiles.net/120680 (http://www.ctprofiles.net/120680)

this was more or less what I was wearing at that time

Worldie
05-04-2008, 04:48 AM
Erm those items show you with 50%+ avoidance not 30%.

Do we have the same concept of avoidance?

sevve
05-04-2008, 06:25 AM
I would definately say archimonde is an avoidance fight, as there is no way you can get EH to survive three hits in a row with the gear available to you at that stage. Heavy avoidance takes a lot of stress off the healers and *may* save you on spikes. This does of course not mean you can go with 14k armor and health, but whether you have 19 or 22k health doesn't make a big difference in that fight imo.
Expertise is also worth mentioning.

Xav
05-04-2008, 02:06 PM
You can easily survive 3 hits in a row with gear at that stage, assuming you're using basic things like Ironshield potions and using Improved Demo Shout. Due to his typical attack speed not being faster than 2 seconds, you've got a long time to live even if you eat several attacks in a row. You can use your own timers to save you (Moroes, LS, Wall), or hope one of your healers remembers to press heal in time. You may as well use avoidance on Archimonde as long as you don't heavily drop under the expected "time to live" by doing so. (6 seconds to 4 seconds is significant, but you'd need to drop like 4000 hp to do that - his average hit might be on the high end for 6000, and you can easily reach much more than 18k hp fully buffed). For reference, the average hit I took on a previous Archimonde was 6150, and I wasn't using Ironshields, and there's a good chance he wasn't being debuffed properly.

Esillymidget
05-04-2008, 11:12 PM
I'm sure others have it differently, but with my gear i really don't have to sacrifice that much stamina or armor when I'm trying to pick up avoidance. It's usually a choice between threat stats and avoidance stats, with the health differences being pretty insignificant. So for me threat wasn't an issue on archimonde once the melee were airbursted once, so i did put on alot of avoidance gear.

sevve
05-05-2008, 05:45 AM
Xav, I find that your experiences are very different from mine. Archi usually hits me for 8,5-9k. I have about 19k buffed armor. The times my avoidance failed me I've been able save myself with trinkets/last stand etc.
I've died once as the first player, and then he hit me three times in three seconds for 9k(shadowfiend parries).

Worldie
05-05-2008, 07:45 AM
Actually i found archimonde's melees pretty inconsistent, it ranged on me from 4-5k to 8-9k, even if debuffs are consistently up on him, i can't tell what causes so much difference.

Tharr
05-05-2008, 05:31 PM
Mainhand and offhand

Worldie
05-05-2008, 05:56 PM
Does he actually dual wield with a 2.0+ atk speed Oo?

Narshe
05-06-2008, 02:43 AM
Actually i found archimonde's melees pretty inconsistent, it ranged on me from 4-5k to 8-9k, even if debuffs are consistently up on him, i can't tell what causes so much difference.
Demo shout falling off for sure. With my gear, I usually get ~8k hits of Archimonde without demo and ~6k hits with demo (~5k with Ironshield+Demo).

My first Archimonde kills I was wearing EH gear with maximum expertise. Expertise rocks in this fight because most of my deaths came from parry-gib situations.
Btw, you also need a decent amount of HP to survive on bad Doomfire streaks.

This is not an avoidance fight, however you usually have a decent amount of avoidance at this stage of gearing.

Clifford
05-12-2008, 04:44 AM
Was quite interesting last night on our first Archi attempt. At times I found myself rage starved after a long sequence of miss/dodge/parry. I tanked him in my usual gear with the exception of one or two avoidance items.

Hypatia
05-12-2008, 12:10 PM
I generally fight with a high amount of avoidance. I am, however, an avoidance whore. :) My base suits are high-threat, high-avoidance, and high-health. I use a base of the high avoidance set and then swap in a few expertise pieces from the threat set. I find that Archie does enough damage when he does hit that I rarely have real rage issues (especially since it is safe to leave out shield block when necessary.)

My feeling is that a high level of avoidance is helpful for this fight, since it reduces the chances that high burst will occur at the same time as healers being out of position. It also maximizes the effectiveness of "oh shit" avoidance trinkets when something bad does happen.

I do, however, chain-chug Ironshield for this fight, and I don't anticipate stopping that for a while.

Your mileage may vary, especially as far as how you interact with your healers. My healers are used to my crazy ways. More or less.

Aoshi
05-14-2008, 09:04 AM
I gear avoidance for archimonde.

Wrokanh
05-14-2008, 09:07 AM
I wear Avoidance for Archimonde as well. Generating solid threat is good to give people in your raid less chance to screw up but in general the fight is more about everyone surviving and when tanking that includes the chance that your healers momentarily miss a fear rotation or are avoiding flames.

Ruminator
05-15-2008, 01:09 AM
Is the parry-gib mechanic in place on the Archi fight? Just curious from those who have done this a ton of times.

Worldie
05-15-2008, 08:11 AM
Yes he gets parryhasted.

pompuspilot
05-27-2008, 12:42 AM
i find i take alot less damage with my avoidance set on, and ive tried it both ways. the trinket off moroes is great to when he takes a soul charge

Rootkitworm
08-28-2008, 01:41 PM
I dont know if I should roll on this T6 helm that drops off Archimonde. Since I am using the ZA helm which has more avoidance stats and more/equal stam.

To me it seems the T6 is better as a 'threat set', T4 helm as 'stam set', and Battleworn for 'avoidance set'. (and we aren't attempting Vashj anytime soon for the T5 helm). I just dont think it is worth that much DKP tbh.

Any feedback appreciated, thanks!

bludwork
08-28-2008, 01:49 PM
So I was chatting with klorry the other day and it went something like "wear the same gear you wear for archimonde on illidan", and he replied "wear my expertise set?". Archimonde parry hastes, that's why sometimes his damage can be extreme. With parry virtually negated (57 expertise), there's almost no danger tanking him.

I always wear my expertise set for him now with the usual assortment of avoidance trinkets but he's no where near the monster he used to be previously before that.

Celandro
08-28-2008, 02:13 PM
Avoidance prevents parry gibs better than expertise does.

Tank deaths simply won't happen if you
1) wear a commendation and an on use trinket
2) keep up demo shout and tclap
3) Have renew + lifebloom + PoM + Earthshield on at all times
4) have 75% avoidance.
Use the trinket for soul charges
The incoming dps on archimode with this setup is only 500dps. Its trivial to heal through

Here's a WWS from our last kill:
Wow Web Stats (http://wowwebstats.com/etx4u3xoq2zx5?s=283506-299379&a=x1807d1)
200K damage from melee in 6 minutes 41s is 492 incoming dps.
PoM + earthshield + JoL covered 75K.
Threat was 780TPS which was more than enough to cover the 1480dps from our DPS warrior
Commendation never even proced

If this isn't an avoidance fight, nothing is.

Rootkitworm
08-30-2008, 08:12 PM
OK, just attempted Archi 16 times last night and best try was when we got him to 58%, so I have several questions being the MT. Your help is appreciated, sorry for the long post...

As a prot war, can someone tell me what expertise range is ideal for this fight?

I have four trinkets that I could use with this fight: Moroes Pocketwatch, Shard of Contempt, Darkmoon Card Vengeance, and Commendation of Kael.

I feel the Shard should take the spot of Pocketwatch (for parrygibs, which noticeably did kill me once), so I would use Shard+Commendation? This puts me at 42 expertise (10.5%) but lowers my dodge by 32 points (from the Pocketwatch). Without pocketwatch my dodge is at 26.18% and expertise lowered to 31 (7.5%).

I don't feel the Commendation should be removed because that would gimp my HP too much and the proc on it is nice when I get hit for 9k. Although I could replace it with Pocketwatch I suppose. But is it worth the loss of 570hp plus that nice proc?

What is the best Neck Piece for this fight? I have: SSO Rep one (Aldor w/ the dodge proc) that has 48 stam, 18 expertise + some hit. I have Brooch of Deftness which is 48 stam, 21 expertise + some hit. And I have the Barbed Choker from Kara which is 39 stam, 21 dodge, 16 defense. I believe the SSO neck is superior than the Brooch of Deftness overall, but what about the Barbed Choker?

Also, it seems that doomfire hit me at least once, if not twice, on each Archi attempt. Mainly because people were getting feared too close to me with fire chasing. Is this common, or is it "the dps's fault" for causing me to get doomfire? It seemed like most of the fight was about the raid position and their focus, not so much my lacking tank stats, but to be sure I want to ask here. Also, it seemed to me anyways using 'Flask of Majority Agility' and 'Elixir of Major Fort.' were overall better buffs than using the 'Flask of Fortification' correct?

My Total Stats Unbuffed (with shard and commendation on) for Archi is:

16.3k HP, 17.7armor, 26.18% dodge, 18% parry, 22.44% block, 58 hit, 42 expertise.

Are these good enough stats for this fight?

Dunmail
08-31-2008, 10:11 AM
I'm doing/done it with similar, tend to use a bit less HP & expertise and a bit more hit.

The doomfire can be a major bummer, BUT you can be fairly (range) easily healed through it if it's a single one. Multiple ones and you're just a kebab. I'd personally run with the watch and commendation as that gives one on demand and a semi reliable backup. Being a JC I personally use the watch & tortoise for 2 on demand trinkets I can rotate, so I roughly have one available every minute to act as cover for an airburst, fire, or just something nasty which the fight is full of. I tried the other ones (Don't have commendation, but have the BB one) and that seemed to work out better for me, and swapping in some avoidance gear for some hps.

People should move the fire directly away, but it can and often gets messy (I once got hit by 8 max damage doomfires pretty much instantaneously (cue wtf....) but they can with pots, seeds and trinkets be healed through. As long as you can take his damage and handle the fears (which took me a couple of runs) and keep yourself out of any avoidable trouble, the rest is up to the raid. If it's anything like our experiences someone else screwing up means you're a passenger with a repair bill. When the rest of the raid cut out DC's falling deaths, not running as a group, and keep in range to heal it will look alot more doable, and those 60% attempts suddenly drop alot lower. Hope you have as good a luck as we did once we overcame the few annoying mechanics and had reliable focus.

Wickezel
09-01-2008, 06:47 AM
I usually tank archi with the most avoidance possible without sacrificing much EH, but without any regard for hit or expertise. People are running from fire the whole fight, so threat is never really an issue.

That takes me to an unbuffed total of
18.7k armor,
17.1k hp,
62% avoidance (parry+dodge+missed),
38 hit
11 expertise
389BV

Shakari
09-11-2008, 11:07 PM
Been tanking him unbuffed with:
17.2k HP
17.5k armour
22.36% Dodge
20.71% Parry
21.3% Block
148 hit (6 over cap)
22 expertise

And the only problems we have been having is ppl dying in fire, or dying from fall dmg. have asked the healers "how am I to keep up" and they don't seem to be having any problems.

its usually a "Silence" soulcharge that nails me hehe but then we shouldn't be getting those :D

Currently at 42% on him once we nail the tactics, and ppl get used to avoiding fire etc we will nail him :D

I can get a lot more dodge but being honest I don't seem to need it and as there is some crazy melee DPS going on I like the TPS output.

Celandro
09-12-2008, 09:11 AM
I now tank him with the following unbuffed stats:
14.6hkp
19015 Armor
570 Defense (+8.8% miss)
41.02% Dodge
21.84% Parry
24.00% Block
39 Hit
6 Expertise
I keep stacking more and more avoidance, and the fight keeps getting easier.
I put out ~800TPS (enough to cover 1400 sustained DPS from melee) with no problem with this setup

If silence soul charge is killing you, its your own fault for not having enough avoidance. I haven't died on archi since my unbuffed avoidance hit 65%.

The only time a wipe is called is when healers can't heal THE RAID. As I've mentioned multiple times in this post, with avoidance gear, PoM + EarthShield + Renew + Lifebloom is enough to cover 90% of the required tank healing. Silence doesn't affect tank healing if you are doing it right.

If you don't have an avoidance set, Bloodboil, Mother, Archi and Council will all be much more difficult than required. Every single one of these fights has special agro considerations (no agro in p2, everyone in SR gear, air burst, spell reflect) which makes avoidance gear that much better.
Here are some WWS's to look at. Mother doing 550 dps. ~90% miss rate on nature damage on Bloodboil. Supremus offtank only getting hit 8 times. 376 dps from Archimonde (685TPS with no windfury and slacking the final 10% :) )

Bloodboil/Mother with 6 real healers, 2 alts: Wow Web Stats (http://wowwebstats.com/zs3hmyypedn2g)
Supremus: Wow Web Stats (http://wowwebstats.com/1z3crksejmzum)
Archi/1st night learning Council: WWS Loading... (http://wowwebstats.com/yomqxvy6g4cmc)

You will have far more success on archi when you assume that 2-4 people will die every attempt and gear such that healers can almost ignore healing you.

Shakari
09-12-2008, 07:12 PM
I now tank him with the following unbuffed stats:
14.6hkp
19015 Armor
570 Defense (+8.8% miss)
41.02% Dodge
21.84% Parry
24.00% Block
39 Hit
6 Expertise
I keep stacking more and more avoidance, and the fight keeps getting easier.
I put out ~800TPS (enough to cover 1400 sustained DPS from melee) with no problem with this setup

If silence soul charge is killing you, its your own fault for not having enough avoidance. I haven't died on archi since my unbuffed avoidance hit 65%.

The only time a wipe is called is when healers can't heal THE RAID. As I've mentioned multiple times in this post, with avoidance gear, PoM + EarthShield + Renew + Lifebloom is enough to cover 90% of the required tank healing. Silence doesn't affect tank healing if you are doing it right.

If you don't have an avoidance set, Bloodboil, Mother, Archi and Council will all be much more difficult than required. Every single one of these fights has special agro considerations (no agro in p2, everyone in SR gear, air burst, spell reflect) which makes avoidance gear that much better.
Here are some WWS's to look at. Mother doing 550 dps. ~90% miss rate on nature damage on Bloodboil. Supremus offtank only getting hit 8 times. 376 dps from Archimonde (685TPS with no windfury and slacking the final 10% :) )

Bloodboil/Mother with 6 real healers, 2 alts: Wow Web Stats (http://wowwebstats.com/zs3hmyypedn2g)
Supremus: Wow Web Stats (http://wowwebstats.com/1z3crksejmzum)
Archi/1st night learning Council: WWS Loading... (http://wowwebstats.com/yomqxvy6g4cmc)

You will have far more success on archi when you assume that 2-4 people will die every attempt and gear such that healers can almost ignore healing you.

People should not die although I assume ppl will die at every attempt on him, and unless you have 100% avoidance you can never have healers ignore you in the fight, simply down to the magic damage being thrown around, and I would sooner have ppl healing me than thinking I don;t need healing much with high dodge and then getting 2-3 hits and clobbered because thats the side effect of very high avoidance, you get unpredictable bursts of dmg on you. at least with medium avoidance and higher health its more predictable. Atm I can easily take 2 full hits of archi without any debuffs on him 9k+ without worrying, although he rarely lands 2 hits in succession on me and is always fully debuffed so hits for a fair bit less than that, so inreality I can take 3 hits without healing, which is a good enough margin, and if in those 6-7 seconds or so I get zero healing something else has gone badly wrong anyway as I should get healing

As I said I can survive a soulcharge it's when you get 2 of them and the doom fire causing chaos, thats killing me and even with your dodge I doubt you'd be alive after 2 consecuative silence soulcharges with no healing. 17% dodge will not change the end result that much imo.

and 685 TPS on archi is rather low TPS I guess it depends how much melee you have and how much threat there generating. in the fights I've been in melee have had an easy time generally and usually do quite heavy threat.

What you have got to bear in mind here is you actually out gear me on some items, and also you've gone insane with avoidance.
I cannot do that with my main tanking gear as it simple is awful for any meaningfull TPS generation and is mainly usefull for specific fights.

Now I can get 30% dodge and 20% parry and have about 64% overall avoidance and have tried it, and my healer have basically said, they can tell little difference and prefer me with the higher health, as in my case I myself am not causing the wipes we have not once wiped due to me not being healable, if there are healers not feared or trapped by fire just 1 or 2 healing me I have not died. or when I have to many have died to make it a problem lol

I actually asked a good friend of mine who's MT in a guild thats atm on Kil'jaden, they don't do MH much anymore and just do BT, when not in SWP, and he said when he was tanking archi he had around the same avoidance unbuffed as me, and he had no problems either. I cannot see such high avoidance being of any major benifit if my survivability is not causing problems, which atm from all I;m being told its not a problem, we ain't wiping due to just me dying, but usually after 4-6 soul charges, which at the end of the day should not be happening ideally but ofc they will. :)

At the end of the day tho this is just my opionion and experience with him :) if your a fan of high avoidance as some ppl are and it works for you its all great, but just don't go saying its a requirement for a fight.

Note: We will Get archi as soon as the tactic gel with ppl and they all get there pvp trinkets for those oh crap fire moments lol

Celandro
09-15-2008, 10:14 AM
Noone has been threat capped on archi in awhile. The 685 includes the final minute where I wasn't doing anything so its a bit misleading :). Bloodboil yes, mother no, council no. On the fights I'm talking about, I have a 20% lead on Omen by the end of the fight so I'm not too concerned.

I've posted my WWS, feel free to post yours. I too can get hit 3 times in a row and live just like you.
At 85% avoidance, the odds of me getting hit 3 times in a row is only 0.3% though (which is 2 times every 3 archi tries) and 0.05% for 4 times in a row (1 in every 10 tries)
At 65% buffed, the odds of you getting hit 3 times in a row is 4.2% or 8 times per attempt. The odds of you getting hit 4 times in a row is 1.5% or 3 times per attempt.
At the 75% i recommend the odds of you getting hit 3 times in a row is 1.5% or 3 times per attempt. The odds of you getting hit 4 times in a row is 0.4% or 3 times every 4 attempts.

As per the original topic, this fight is NOT a dps race. It is a survival fight and by gearing for avoidance you drastically reduce the chance of huge damage spikes and cuts the healers needed on you to a single druid and priest (who also heal themselves). This lets every other healer handle keeping people alive who step in fire and helps recovery from soul charge drastically. If your melee dps are truly able to sustain more than 1400 dps on this fight, then you can reconsider your gearing but for guilds just learning archi, it would be far preferably for the 1 dps warrior to throttle their dps slightly as noone else can sustain that kind of agro on this fight.

tehgreen
09-17-2008, 06:02 AM
I'll add my own thoughts, obviously every one is going to do things slightly different.

I maintain 2 gear sets for tanking with ClosetGnome, one is balls out threat the other what I consider a good mix of avoidance whilst maintaining "decent" amount of expertise and hit, this is where is comes down to personal choice. Please understand however that like most tanks, I'll often swap one or 2 pieces of gear depending on the fight.

Anatheron, Azgalor, Archi, Sharaz, Council and Illidan I wear my Avoidance set, these fights generally have little to do with agro so its fine to nerf ur expertise and such.

Everything else ballz out threat gear, including BB which we six heal often now (mages still die now and than but meh, soul stone them as they get fel rage and go about ur business). I can dig out wws if anyone wants to call me.

Avoidance gear has like:
95 hit, 11 expertise, 29% dodge, 21% parry, 19.7k armor, 531 def rating.

(I often swap my The Unbreakable Will to my second The Brutalizer with goose on it for extra expertise and or eternium shell bracers for bracers of the ancient phalanx)

Threat is:
153 hit (over cap i no), 38 expertise, 20% dodge, 20% parry, 18.4k armor


As its often mentioned on these forums a lot of the time tank gibing will happen because a boss isn't properly debuffed. The Demon mod is great for quickly ascertaining if relevant debuffs are up.

I would have to say a lot of this comes down to your philosophy on tanking, I generally go with "get enough hp and avoidance to not die, than stack threat stats" others prefer the "how can i take more dmg, survive longer" path. The second is great for prog, the first is where its at for farm content.

edit: Forgot about the dudes helm question, I'd say t6 just because of the 10% sbv meta.

bruttall
09-17-2008, 08:45 AM
At the time we first downed Archimonde, we were 4/9BT - so I wore full avoidance for both Archimonde and Azgalor. As we cleared up to and passed Illidan, the rest of my gear filled out and I was able to go with a more balanced setup.

Threat shouldn't be much of an issue on Archimonde as the groups are moving to avoid the fires and aren't constantly DPS'ing.

The stats for my 'avoidance' set are:

(Buffed)
34% dodge
22% parry
18.5k Armor
21k hp (buffed)

My regular tanking set has a great deal less dodge but adds significant hit rating and expertise. I run 3 itemrack tanking sets - Max Threat, Max Avoidance and General Tanking. I've received every BT tanking drop and most of the Hyjal (I never ended up getting the Hyjal sword or tanking BP) and have quite a bit of gear to play with.

Satrina
09-17-2008, 09:06 AM
T6 hat is garbage. ZA hat is better, and there's no comparison at all to the Faceplate.

Cue the chorus of b-b-but meta gem, b-b-but 4piece bonus, I am sure.

Sanelora
09-17-2008, 09:08 AM
T6 hat is garbage. ZA hat is better, and there's no comparison at all to the Faceplate.

Cue the chorus of b-b-but meta gem, b-b-but 4piece bonus, I am sure.


BUT 4 PCE!

/wah


T6 hat is garbage. ZA hat is better

this

bruttall
09-17-2008, 09:09 AM
T6 hat is garbage. ZA hat is better, and there's no comparison at all to the Faceplate.

Cue the chorus of b-b-but meta gem, b-b-but 4piece bonus, I am sure.


Well, using 4-piece t6 + gauntlets of enforcement allows for some pretty decent TPS. The Eternal Earthstorm diamond isnt necessarily a waste either but, I believe you overlooked the most important reason that the ZA hat sucks... who wants to look like a freaking chicken...

Satrina
09-17-2008, 09:14 AM
People leave helm graphic turned on?


Well, using 4-piece t6 + gauntlets of enforcement allows for some pretty decent TPS.
I'd wager that the majority of your "decent tps" comes from the other BT gear you have on.

Seriously. Take 10% of your SBV. Reduce it by 1/3 to account for mob armour. Multiply by 1.495 for stance/defiance. Divide by 6 for the shield slam cooldown to amortise the threat into threat per second. Tell me how awesome a threat boost that is.

It's a very nice little boost to get for free once you get the sunwell pieces that you will wear over non-tier gear. Wearing 4 piece MH+BT T6 gear is suboptimal.

Shakari
09-22-2008, 09:24 PM
Noone has been threat capped on archi in awhile. The 685 includes the final minute where I wasn't doing anything so its a bit misleading :). Bloodboil yes, mother no, council no. On the fights I'm talking about, I have a 20% lead on Omen by the end of the fight so I'm not too concerned.

I've posted my WWS, feel free to post yours. I too can get hit 3 times in a row and live just like you.
At 85% avoidance, the odds of me getting hit 3 times in a row is only 0.3% though (which is 2 times every 3 archi tries) and 0.05% for 4 times in a row (1 in every 10 tries)
At 65% buffed, the odds of you getting hit 3 times in a row is 4.2% or 8 times per attempt. The odds of you getting hit 4 times in a row is 1.5% or 3 times per attempt.
At the 75% i recommend the odds of you getting hit 3 times in a row is 1.5% or 3 times per attempt. The odds of you getting hit 4 times in a row is 0.4% or 3 times every 4 attempts.

As per the original topic, this fight is NOT a dps race. It is a survival fight and by gearing for avoidance you drastically reduce the chance of huge damage spikes and cuts the healers needed on you to a single druid and priest (who also heal themselves). This lets every other healer handle keeping people alive who step in fire and helps recovery from soul charge drastically. If your melee dps are truly able to sustain more than 1400 dps on this fight, then you can reconsider your gearing but for guilds just learning archi, it would be far preferably for the 1 dps warrior to throttle their dps slightly as noone else can sustain that kind of agro on this fight.

I agree on what your saying its not a DPS race by any means an yes more avoidance is good BUT what your presuming is that I have the same gear your do, which I do not have access to some of your gear yet I cannot achieve 40% dodge without regemming everything for it and tbh I cannot do that as fights where tps IS a matter I would struggle on. I have to work with the gear I have, I do have 3 setups aswell.

We killed archi today, and my avoidance was 27% dodge, 21% parry 11% miss, 132 hit, 22 expertise. I enjoyed it tremendously and from the tanking side besides some lag making me miss a stancedance (which pissed me off lol) where the fear luckily broke instantly, the fight went without any problems at all, I only went below 50% a few times. I had no problems with healing on me and 3 ppl died, due to fire.

I can get, 32% dodge and 20.3% parry but with that I have the base 6 expertise, with what I tanked him today I have 22, and the only times I seem to have any problem on him at all is when I get a parry or he parrys a melee behind him when he turns to throw an airburst etc, and I get a parry hastened hit.

I feel from my experience in the fight that reducing those dmg spikes is more important than desteratly trying to get more avoidance, and with no lack of healing on me, it seems to pay off for my situation.

My guild is a casual one basically thats done well in raiding, we're at 4/9 in BT and have cleared all the other content in the TBC.

Something that is crippling me a bit is the fact I still use the blazefury, the sword from MH, Axe from BT, Axe from ZA or even the Mace from the lurker still won't drop, I would dearly love the brutilizer lol.

Note: also do not use as a guild or personally WWS logging so can't post anything in that regards sorry :/

minrog
09-22-2008, 11:27 PM
I think the general rule applies to this fight like anything else, get enough EH to survive 3 or 4 hits then add in avoidance. If you are dying from spikes and not long gaps in healing you're probably looking at Parries or EH that is too low.

Once you have the ability to survive a few hits you have to ramp your avoidance otherwise there isn't going to be enough extra healing to take care of the raid. When I started Archimonde they were having to put 5 healers on me with my 45% avoidance because of how air bursts ect work. When I went up to the high 70's for avoidance (no block counted) they were able to drop it down to 3 healers. Tanks aren't in a bubble with a mob of dedicated healers - the mana and throughput have to come from somewhere; that or you're just wasting raid spots with healers that could be filled with dps guys.

As an aside, I wear the T6 helm. I will never be able to kill Illidan so it's the best I have access to. The plus side is that it does in fact have a Meta gem which adds around 90 SBV to my uncrushable set. I don't know what you think about the 2 piece T6 bonus but since I only have two and the T6 gloves are the best I have I guess my Commanding shout is upgraded as a bonus.

Shakari
09-23-2008, 09:36 PM
Well I had 3 main healers when we killed him and others just thowing heals as they could if they could, didn't seem to be many problems with healings infact it went well :D

And I'm not dying to burst dmg I just see it with my current gear its best to reduce the chance for this to happen. and have found 55% avoidance given my situation works ok for me. As my gear supports more avoidance I will use it tho.

Celandro
09-24-2008, 09:13 AM
I did want to update this post just to confirm that a little threat goes a long way on Bloodboil. Switching out a few pieces of gear to gain 15 expertise and 2% hit at a loss of 5% avoidance sped up the fight considerably. The dpsers were able to do around 1500 dps instead of 1000dps so we finished the fight 3 minutes faster (just over 5 minutes instead of 8 minutes). This drastically reduced the number of phase 2s we have to luck our way through and reduces total healing required too.

That said, Archi is still an avoidance fight :). 59% unbuffed avoidance is lower than I would recommend but if your hunters can keep up scorpid sting and you are willing to assign 3 healers instead of 2 healers to tank healing, its obviously ok.

Opinion may change as of the next patch though.

Shakari
10-03-2008, 10:35 PM
indeed if anything from what I've seen on the PTR my avoidance should go up :D with a net lose (inc the new awards from mining for health) of just 100 health to cover the defence lose.

Should prove interesting with the new abilities etc :D