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shiz98
04-30-2008, 12:42 AM
Saw this brought up in a thread, and thought it would be a fun thing to discuss.

There are two types of Warrior DPSers - those who wear leather, and those who don't. I'd like to hear peoples' opinions on which is better, and why. No flames please, and let's keep this as rational as possible.

Personally, I don't like leather. I'll try to outline my reasons below.

Preliminaries
First of all, plate is something that's unique to the warrior class (I'm ignoring Retadins here for the sake of argument). Rogues don't wear plate, we do. In fact, that's pretty much the only thing that sets us apart from rogues. I'll get into this later...

Let's assume that your raid has an Arms warrior in the melee group, providing Battle Shout and Blood Frenzy to all the melee; any other warrior being considered at this point is going purely as DPS, like a rogue.

Cons
And there's the first catch. Fury warriors do less DPS than rogues. Maybe not in every case, but given equal gear access, rogues will out DPS warriors. It's what they do. So if your reason for wearing leather is a minor DPS increase (and yes, it is fairly minor relative to the equivalent DPS plate), it's kind of a moot argument anyway; by being there in the first place, the raid has lost DPS. Enter arguments about hardcore max/min stuff and whatnot...

So, if swapping out leather for plate is going to make that much of a difference in particular fight, that same difference could be had again by dropping a rogue in. My point is that if the leather gear DPS will actually make a tangible, important difference on encounters, a rogue should be there instead of a DPS warrior.

Pros
First, there's the gear competition thing. I'm willing to wager that by picking up plate DPS gear that might be slightly inferior to leather gear (but still better than your current gear) and leaving the leather to the rogues, you'll increase raid DPS at a faster rate than if you bid on the leather gear as well and ignored plate pieces that weren't "ideal."

Second, survivability. Let's face it, Rogues have better survivability skills than Warriors. Cloak of Shadows, Sprint, etc. If you're wearing leather, a rogue will on average have more DPS time than you because of dying less (over the course of many raids). If you're wearing plate, however, you gain an advantage.

In Mag's Lair, for example, melee has a tendency to get bounced into a cleave. A warrior in plate can survive this (barely, but still). A rogue cannot. While similar situations like this might be rare, they nonetheless exist (Nagas/strider on Vashj loose for a second, etc). Wearing plate here gives you a distinct advantage.

Finally, plate opens up possibilities to you. In 10 man raids, I'll often do trash without a salv buff when one's available so that I can be second on threat. Why? Because if something happens to the tank (Icy Tomb mobs, for example), I can take a couple hits. Clothies can't. Those extra 5 seconds or so where a tank can get aggro back can save a DPSer. This becomes much less viable in leather. Wearing plate also allows you to aggro more. Now, I'm not talking about heavy-duty raid trash; more along the lines of hyjal waves. I can DPS tank a couple mobs with no problem, which supplies me with more rage, which leads to more damage. Again, a leather warrior cannot do this as well.

Yeah, some of these reasons are a little weak. But in my opinion, so is the argument for leather.

TLDR Version:
If the slight DPS boost from leather really matters, bring a rogue.
Armor for melee DPS is useful for survivability.
High armor lets you do interesting things.

What do you all think? /popcorn

Arrivan
04-30-2008, 01:41 AM
The major point you have overlooked here is our ability to wear more than one set of gear. If you need the extra armour and survivability of plate, swap in plate gear for that fight. On the other hand, if you're not taking physical damage like in a lot of raid encounters, the extra DPS from the leather can be the difference between a kill and a wipe. It's not like you'd wear all leather anyway, there are good plate DPS pieces out there too (as far as I've seen, plate gear has a lot more ArP than leather).

I personally would let the rogues have first dibs on leather drops. After all, it is the only kind of armour they can wear. However, I would still aim to get any leather piece that is better than the plate equivalent. Badge gear on the other hand hurts noone, and I'd sure as hell buy the leather legs before the plate ones.

I'll admit that tanking in DPS gear in 10 mans is fun, but again you can swap in plate gear to do so.

Corbusier
04-30-2008, 05:51 AM
A fury warrior who refuses to wear leather is intentionally doing less DPS. Any DPSer that purposefully gimps themselves should not have a raid spot.

Survivability is much more about awareness than a little extra armor. The only time you'll be seeing lots of extra physical damage on your DPS warriors is Hyjal trash. Nearly every other case of splash damage is AoE magic, and armor does squat.

TL;DR - Armor is not a DPS stat.

Skips
04-30-2008, 05:58 AM
I think shiz98's point was more that if there is a rogue in the raid then you shouldn't roll against him on leather gear...but Im not certain to be honest.

Corbusier
04-30-2008, 06:00 AM
I think shiz98's point was more that if there is a rogue in the raid then you shouldn't roll against him on leather gear...but Im not certain to be honest.

That's not what it sounded like, but meh. I'm still taking Midnight Chestguard, since it's the best fury chest till Sunwell and there are 2 better rogue chests in BT.

Anglachel
04-30-2008, 06:43 AM
My raid has a full melee group, with 2 rogues, an enh shammy, a ret pally and me (imp slam/BF warrior)

The only way i'm ever gonna grab any leather is if the rogues and shammy don't need it, while my only competition for plate is the ret pallie, who is in full S3+Vindicators, so i won't really have any competition for plate until BT...

so yeah, i use plate...

BoomBeef
04-30-2008, 10:37 AM
Currently we raid have 2 Enc. Shammies, 2 Hunters (1 Surv, 1 BM) and a Feral druid that all vie for certain rogue leather drops. Myself (Fury w/ Imp DS) and my other DPS warrior (MS + BF) leave leather alone and we did get halfway done with T6 stuff without feeling like we missed out on anything. However I did start thinking about a leather crafted item now that we have been clearing to Kalecgos. Compare Gloves of Immortal Dusk to Grips of Silent Justice. Look at that crit and I'm already way past what I want for hit in gear. Also figure it is crafted and not really taking away from the rogues but it does eat up Sunmotes which hurts.

And thanks Corb, you got me looking at the Midnight Chestguard and thinking I missed out! :cool:

On a fun note, Rogue leather drops are all kind of dark and matching. That should be added to the "PRO" list.
In my best DPS plate I look like a clown thanks to the bright nasty color combinations that all clash (Gruul's gloves that are aqua green/brown, red/beige ZA boots, blue/gold S3 legs, bright red Rage shoulders etc). And I have blue hooves dammit.

Corbusier
04-30-2008, 10:42 AM
It's sad that Blizzard can't seem to itemized plate for us for every slot, but that's just how it goes. Looking at the Sunwell loot, the best-in-slot items for legs/chest/gloves/shoulders at the very least all are leather, and often by a wide margin, like the gloves that Boom mentioned.

shiz98
04-30-2008, 01:04 PM
I think shiz98's point was more that if there is a rogue in the raid then you shouldn't roll against him on leather gear...but Im not certain to be honest.
That was one of my points, yeah. Sorry if it wasn't clear - that's what I get for posting in late hours of the night...

Basically I argued that if a warrior competes with rogues for leather, rather than picking up the slightly inferior plate pieces, the raid's DPS will increase at a slower rate.


TL;DR - Armor is not a DPS stat.
But dead warriors do no DPS :)

Cayleb
04-30-2008, 01:10 PM
Personally, I'm of a mind that those in the class of that armor(rogues for leather, shammy's for mail, ect) get first dibs on their appropriate armor because I have other options. I'll pass and wait my turn until the rogues have their leather. But if I can get my hands on it without hurting the rogues/shamans and it can help me, I will wear it. It doesn't matter if it's plate or leather. No, I don't outfit myself entirely in leather items, and go around like a rogue with a rage bar. But I have a rogue I started raiding with and the playstyle is fairly similar and the survivability is very similar. CloS for a rogue will very, very rarely save them if they pull aggro and unless they get a lucky dodge, you're probably not going to survive the first swing to have a chance to vanish. You can vanish if you start getting close to the tank on threat, but with Salv, that's never really been a big issue for me anyway on either characters. Only a handful of fights that I've been really threatcapped on as a warrior.

The best thing you can do to enhance your own chances at staying alive is being aware of the situations and there's nothing saying you cannot have two sets of gear for certain fights. Worried about getting cleaved from Mag? Fine, I'll put some plate on that may be a grade lower than the leather I'm wearing. But when I go and start pounding on Solarian, Rage or Morogrim, the plate is doing nothing for me against the magic damage I'm taking instead of physical damage; so I have no qualms at all with donning the better piece of gear.

The way I look at it is, my job is to push out as much punishment as I can and provide the raid with what's asked of me, which is buffing the other melee with shouts and, recently, Blood Frenzy. If I had an issue with using a piece of gear that's better for my purpose(DPS) because of its armor class, I would expect me raid leader to question my contribution to the raid's progress. Of course, I also double as a fourth or primarily, fifth tank with my prot gear on many raids on the trash pulls that require it. Just like I've offtanked for ZA runs as fury. Using different sets and different classes of armor is part of what makes is so versatile in a raid and I'm more than willing to take advantage of that in order to help my raid as much as I possibly can.

..Well, back when I was raiding. Meh, not even a month and now I'm getting the itch again. Now I'm going to have to find a new home. I hate you people. <3

Corbusier
04-30-2008, 01:14 PM
But dead warriors do no DPS :)

A warrior that pulls aggro would not have been saved by 800 armor, this strawman argument holds no water.

I explained above, there are incredibly few situation in which more armor is better for DPS. You shouldn't be getting hit at all 99% of the time.

Rampart
04-30-2008, 03:31 PM
The fact that Fel Leather Gloves are the best re-raid DPS gloves made me quickly decide to not have tunnel vision towards plate. Best decision ever.

Corbusier
04-30-2008, 04:40 PM
The fact that Fel Leather Gloves are the best re-raid DPS gloves made me quickly decide to not have tunnel vision towards plate. Best decision ever.
I used those and the boots for quite a while myself.

shiz98
04-30-2008, 06:32 PM
A warrior that pulls aggro would not have been saved by 800 armor, this strawman argument holds no water.

I explained above, there are incredibly few situation in which more armor is better for DPS. You shouldn't be getting hit at all 99% of the time.
Right. If you're pulling aggro, you're just dead whatever you're wearing.

But that wasn't my argument. I was just pointing out that there are situations where plate helps; it's not completely useless.

Let's look at SSC:
Lurker: OT goes down, a warrior in plate can handle the adds for a bit, with luck
Hydross: No plate advantage
Morogrim: Lagged WW or something picks up a murloc or two, you have a better chance at survival with plate
Leotheras: Plate offers initial mitigation when he WWs around
Vashj: Loose naga/striders (might be more of an HP issue - so long as you can survive one hit)

TK, not so much benefit, except maybe on A'lar and Solarion. Slight if any, however.

Hyjal, the plate helps a lot on trash, with minor benefit on some bosses.

Corbusier
04-30-2008, 06:38 PM
This is a circular argument. I've never advocated using ALL leather, that would be stupid. You're talking about 800-2k armor AT MOST. Considering raid buffs and shield armor/def stance damage reduction, there is zero issue.

Some leather items are far superior to their plate counterparts. If you are not using those you are not doing your job as a DPS warrior.

End of story.

shiz98
05-01-2008, 12:23 AM
Yeah, the actual armor is a thing that would only make a difference once in a while, if any. Actual impact on DPS will probably be minimal, I agree.

But that only addresses half the story.


Some leather items are far superior to their plate counterparts. If you are not using those you are not doing your job as a DPS warrior.
But are you? I'd like to hear comments on whether it's more beneficial to the raid's DPS as a whole if you take leather over plate, even though there are other classes that can't use the (admittedly inferior) plate. If you're just farming content, this isn't a problem, but if you're gearing up to progress through content, then increasing the raid's DPS as a whole becomes more important than increasing personal DPS.

What's your take on this?

Crimsonstorm
05-01-2008, 01:40 AM
A fury warrior who refuses to wear leather is intentionally doing less DPS. Any DPSer that purposefully gimps themselves should not have a raid spot.


Not if that leather piece could have gone to a rogue/feral druid instead, and you couldve gotten a plate piece. In that case, youre makign the raid do less dps by taking the leather item.

imo, wearing leather pieces that you got without competition from a leather wearer is good. Taking leather stuff over them hurts the raid, imo. (Unless they are some unreliable person and you raid all the time).


I personally like to wear S3 helm, chest, legs, and a couple other s3 items, which do similar dps to other items I could get but have higher survivabilty. Sitting at 15k raid buffed hp (w/Commanding shout from a 2nd warrior) makes surviving much much easier. Also, on trash especially I think the armor level and resilience of the items is helpful. I can pull aggro on most trash in my dps gear and live. Which is helpful for holding mobs in AoE trash so they dont kill clothies, picking up a loose mob when there arent enough tanks, etc.

Corbusier
05-01-2008, 06:17 AM
I never said anything about taking leather over a rogue or feral druid, save for one piece, don't put words in my mouth.

But are you? I'd like to hear comments on whether it's more beneficial to the raid's DPS as a whole if you take leather over plate, even though there are other classes that can't use the (admittedly inferior) plate. If you're just farming content, this isn't a problem, but if you're gearing up to progress through content, then increasing the raid's DPS as a whole becomes more important than increasing personal DPS.
You keep saying the same thing over and over. Strategically using gear that raises your DPS is increasing raid DPS.

ebs2002
05-01-2008, 09:53 AM
I'd just like to chime in that I have no problem wearing leather when I'm supposed to be DPSing. In most situations that I'm in, if a tank dies and we don't have a backup tank in place, then I'm not gonna be able to pick it up anyway, unless the mob is almost dead and a shield wall would suffice (we're in 10mans, so of course YMMV).

However, I never take leather over a rogue, who has less options and can usually use it better than me anyway (since they often have agility in place of some crit or attack power). I get the option of free loot when the mail drops and the shammy/hunter doesn't need it, or when the leather drops and the rogue doesn't need it; plus I get to roll on any plate against a tiny group.

It's definitely an "increase the raid DPS as fast as possible, rather than increasing my personal DPS" argument. The rogue has less loot opportunities and will get a larger DPS increase from it (on average), the warrior has more loot opportunities. If I take that piece of leather, then a piece of mail or plate is rotting (even if it's worse than the leather I just got), I did the raid a disservice by keeping us from getting two upgrades.

I'm not sure if that was convoluted or clear, but basically I'm agreeing with Crimsonstorm: I roll against others for plate, and pass on mail unless all hunters/shammies have it, and pass on leather unless all rogues/feraldruids have it. I will roll against a hunter for leather, though ;-)

Crimsonstorm
05-01-2008, 10:21 AM
Theres a lot of trash fights where pulling aggro is safe if you have high armor and stam (and resil to reduce crits). I especially appreciate the arena gear for dps when we do Kara for quick badges. Almost nothing in there can kill you until you get to the mobs after shade, if you are wearing 11k armor/12k unbuffed hp.

Kream
05-01-2008, 10:28 AM
However, I never take leather over a rogue, who has less options and can usually use it better than me anyway (since they often have agility in place of some crit or attack power).

The agility on the gear is often what makes it so attractive to fury warriors.

Compare Sunstrider Warboots to Sunrage Treads.

At first glance you would think the plate would be better. However take a closer look..

I'm going to socket both with +8 str gems for max dps stats
Sunstrider:
45 str ~= 99 AP raid buffed
140 armor pen

Sunrage:
8 str + 58 AP ~= 76 AP raid buffed
28 agi ~= .93% crit ~= 20.6 crit rating
126 armor pen

Difference:
-23 AP
+21 crit rating
-14 armor pen

Leather often has a better spread of stats that make for better itemization. In this case what really caused the leather to outperform the plate is that it had 3 DPS stats (agi, AP, armor pen) vs 2 DPS stats (str, armor pen). The way Blizzard itemization works, having high numbers of any one stat takes a large proportion of the item budget.

Jathine
05-01-2008, 10:48 AM
Right. If you're pulling aggro, you're just dead whatever you're wearing.

But that wasn't my argument. I was just pointing out that there are situations where plate helps; it's not completely useless.

Let's look at SSC:
Lurker: OT goes down, a warrior in plate can handle the adds for a bit, with luck
Hydross: No plate advantage
Morogrim: Lagged WW or something picks up a murloc or two, you have a better chance at survival with plate
Leotheras: Plate offers initial mitigation when he WWs around
Vashj: Loose naga/striders (might be more of an HP issue - so long as you can survive one hit)

TK, not so much benefit, except maybe on A'lar and Solarion. Slight if any, however.

Hyjal, the plate helps a lot on trash, with minor benefit on some bosses.

You are acting like a warrior is going to be wearing a full set of leather gear which is never the case.

The 800-2k armor you would drop from wearing 2-3 pieces of leather isn't more than 3-4% increase in physical damage for the 2k lower armor. Assuming you are sitting around 10k armor before changing to the leather. That is 30-40 more damage per 1k damage you take. You increase your survivability more by having a macro to go to D-stance and have a shield on and then be very fast to use it if you pull aggro on trash.

Your arguments for reason dps warriors should only wear plate are laughable.
Lurker: If a tank goes down the add it is responsible for should be CC'd, or you can toss on a shield, go D-Stance, hit Commanding Shout and be able to tank it easily even in a couple of leather pieces.

Morogrim: The murlocs don't hit that hard to begin with, not really an issue. Healer aggro is going to yank it off you shortly anyhow.

Leo: Only the inital hit from WW is mitigated by armor. Having 2k more armor by wearing full plate is only about 120 less damage taken. The bleed portion isn't mitigated by armor and that is what will kill you.

Vashj: You will take one hit from one of the Elites and live if, and only if, you are topped off. Take a second hit and you are dead. If you pull a Strider you are going to get one shot unless you Dodge. Guess what increases your dodge? That's right Agility. Where do you see Agi on dps gear? That's right leather. In this situation leather actually increases your chance to live more than wearing plate.

Hyjal Trash: Get a decent pally tank. Problem solved. Only damage you should be taking after that is magic damage and plate doesn't help with that.

As for your comment about "if a warrior is going to wear leather you might as well take a rogue," or how ever you put it: When you add 1900 to 2300 AP to the melee group we can talk. Until then you are going to need a dps warrior to achieve your optimal dps.

shiz98
05-01-2008, 11:35 AM
Theres a lot of trash fights where pulling aggro is safe if you have high armor and stam (and resil to reduce crits).
And the rage you get from doing so is lovely :D


Lurker: If a tank goes down the add it is responsible for should be CC'd, or you can toss on a shield, go D-Stance, hit Commanding Shout and be able to tank it easily even in a couple of leather pieces.
Assuming your healers are on the ball. If an add is already loose, chances are they've got their hands full trying to keep people up and won't immediately realize the add is being tanked again.


Morogrim: The murlocs don't hit that hard to begin with, not really an issue. Healer aggro is going to yank it off you shortly anyhow.
Shortly, yes. I've still died to a couple murlocs even in plate.


Vashj: You will take one hit from one of the Elites and live if, and only if, you are topped off.
Yes. Better than no chance at all. On the nagas, I assume you've never popped zerker rage and attempted to hamstring right as someone tosses a net.


Hyjal Trash: Get a decent pally tank. Problem solved. Only damage you should be taking after that is magic damage and plate doesn't help with that.
Pulling off even a good pally tank with that trash isn't exactly difficult. What's more, actually aggroing (I've used mocking blow before) the trash is a great way to generate extra rage, and consequently extra DPS. I can easily outdo the mages/warlocks if I do things correctly.

I'd like to point anyone who claims that 2k armor is an insignificant number to the armor/DR posts in the Theory forum - 2k armor is a big deal for time to live.

That being said, most of these scenarios are both rare, and still difficult to survive in plate. There's no arguing that 2k armor doesn't give extra insurance when "manure occureth."


When you add 1900 to 2300 AP to the melee group we can talk. Until then you are going to need a dps warrior to achieve your optimal dps.
This was assuming you already have an Arms warrior. Obviously you want at least one warrior in your melee group; I never denied this.


You keep saying the same thing over and over. Strategically using gear that raises your DPS is increasing raid DPS.
Apologies for the repetition; from what I understand from your posts, you've been arguing (with a logical and understandable viewpoint) against one of my points while ignoring the other. I felt it necessary to attempt to make myself clearer, as I will do for one last time. I would actually like to hear what you think of the topic of loot priority.

Scenario: Rage drops both Deadly Cuffs and Furious Shackles. The plate is an upgrade for you, but the leather is a larger upgrade. There are rogues for which the leather is also an upgrade. Which do you bid on, and why?

I don't really have much else to say on the topic, but it has been interesting reading the responses :cool:

Corbusier
05-01-2008, 11:41 AM
Loot priority is decided by your guild.

Your boss encounter examples are ridiculous, as is raising pseudo-inflammatory points followed by smiley emotes.

Grimrage
05-01-2008, 11:41 AM
If you're pulling aggro on purpose to increase rage then you're putting further strain on your healers. That's just a bad idea. The limited DPS gains you'll see from additional rage through a few extra Heroic Strikes doesn't outweigh the additional mana usage and healing-target splits that are made due to pulling aggro.

Pass on Furious Shackles since I have Bracers of Eradication, which are better. When Deadly Cuffs drop I pass to the Rogues until they all have them.

shiz98
05-01-2008, 12:09 PM
Loot priority is decided by your guild.

Your boss encounter examples are ridiculous, as is raising pseudo-inflammatory points followed by smiley emotes.

Let my rephrase the question then, one last time: how should a guild decide loot priority on leather items between rogues and warriors?

I don't mind being told I'm wrong/stupid/a horrible player/whatever, so long as there are some backing reasons given. Thusfar you have attacked one of my arguments, giving very little reason as to why, and sidestepped or dismissed the other. I'm not here to push my opinions on everyone else (though I will state them and defend them as best I can); I'm here to learn. Telling me I'm wrong doesn't achieve that, but telling my why I'm wrong will.

About my "inflammatory" points...

As you stated, as a warrior, it is my job to do the most DPS possible. If this means responsibly pulling aggro on a weak-hitting mob, while taking into concern the current strain on healers (as Grimrage pointed out) and the overall effect it would have on my DPS, then I see no issue. It's a matter of weighing the benefits and drawbacks. I'm not advocating it in every situation, but it does have its uses.

The horse is dead, and I'll stop beating it...

Grimrage
05-01-2008, 12:10 PM
Just to make an addition about pulling aggro. If you're pulling to gain rage anyway then the less armor you have the more rage you'll get. ;)

shiz98
05-01-2008, 12:13 PM
Pass on Furious Shackles since I have Bracers of Eradication, which are better. When Deadly Cuffs drop I pass to the Rogues until they all have them.
Hypothetically speaking, of course. I doubt most warriors would actually want Furious Shackles.

Grimrage
05-01-2008, 12:17 PM
True. In general, I pass on leather until all Rogues that want it have it. I even pass on weapons for them. If a Rogue is after either then they get no contest from me unless they just have horrible attendance and/or they are a fairly poor player in general.

Corbusier
05-01-2008, 12:19 PM
I don't mind being told I'm wrong/stupid/a horrible player/whatever, so long as there are some backing reasons given. Thusfar you have attacked one of my arguments, giving very little reason as to why, and sidestepped or dismissed the other. I'm not here to push my opinions on everyone else (though I will state them and defend them as best I can); I'm here to learn. Telling me I'm wrong doesn't achieve that, but telling my why I'm wrong will.


I attacked one of your points quite thoroughly I thought. That particular horse is, in fact, dead.

I don't care how your guild handles loot. Every guild has a different system. Hopefully, if you use an open-bid DKP system like mine does, you evaluate each item in terms of its own merit. You can't say universally "all leather goes to rogues/druids first" because sometimes that particular leather item might be a HUGE upgrade for the warrior and a small one for the rogue/druid. Also in this vein, my example, the Midnight Chestguard, is inferior to 2 chests in Black Temple for rogues, but is the best until Sunwell for fury warriors. Should it be defaulted to rogues first?

shiz98
05-01-2008, 12:51 PM
Yeah, I'd generally agree with you there. My one addition is that if there's a leather item that's a larger upgrade for a warrior than a rogue, but the warrior has access to a plate item that's slightly inferior to that leather item, I would generally like to see the rogue get it. Even if the warrior's DPS gain from that item was superior to the rogue's, I think raid DPS would increase faster if the warrior got the plate and waited for the rogues to pick up the leather before bidding on it.

Either way though; it's pretty situational. I'd just advocate less focus on personal DPS than you would.

Corbusier
05-01-2008, 12:54 PM
Even if the warrior's DPS gain from that item was superior to the rogue's, I think raid DPS would increase faster if the warrior got the plate and waited for the rogues to pick up the leather before bidding on it.

Either way though; it's pretty situational. I'd just advocate less focus on personal DPS than you would.
I don't understand how you think these two statements are compatible. Raid DPS increases fastest when the weakest items are replaced, regardless of the class in question.

ebs2002
05-01-2008, 12:56 PM
The agility on the gear is often what makes it so attractive to fury warriors.

Compare Sunstrider Warboots to Sunrage Treads.

At first glance you would think the plate would be better. However take a closer look..

I'm going to socket both with +8 str gems for max dps stats
Sunstrider:
45 str ~= 99 AP raid buffed
140 armor pen

Sunrage:
8 str + 58 AP ~= 76 AP raid buffed
28 agi ~= .93% crit ~= 20.6 crit rating
126 armor pen

Difference:
-23 AP
+21 crit rating
-14 armor pen

Leather often has a better spread of stats that make for better itemization. In this case what really caused the leather to outperform the plate is that it had 3 DPS stats (agi, AP, armor pen) vs 2 DPS stats (str, armor pen). The way Blizzard itemization works, having high numbers of any one stat takes a large proportion of the item budget.

You pulled out poorly itemized plate and well-itemized boots, there. Obviously, an item with 3 stats will out-perform an item with 2 because of how Blizzard item budgets. My first opinion when I saw those boots is that they were crap; worse than S3 or Nightbane's boots, unless I was pushing 1k armor pen without executioner and wanted to stack it.

My original point still stands that a rogue would perform better with leather with agi than a warrior would. And as I'm saying this, I just picked up Shoulderpads of the Silvermoon Retainer, so I definitely agree that agi is good for a warrior. It's just not as good as crit rating for a warrior, and is better than crit rating for a rogue.

Jathine
05-01-2008, 01:27 PM
Yeah, I'd generally agree with you there. My one addition is that if there's a leather item that's a larger upgrade for a warrior than a rogue, but the warrior has access to a plate item that's slightly inferior to that leather item, I would generally like to see the rogue get it. Even if the warrior's DPS gain from that item was superior to the rogue's, I think raid DPS would increase faster if the warrior got the plate and waited for the rogues to pick up the leather before bidding on it.

Either way though; it's pretty situational. I'd just advocate less focus on personal DPS than you would.

You are one confusing person to listen to. You try to advocate that there should be less focus on personal dps, but then in the same post say that a rogue should get a leather item even though its a bigger upgrade for the warrior. Raid dps increases fastest when an item goes to the person whose dps it will increase the greatest.

You also like to pretend that the plate item is going to drop. The way the random loot tables work sometimes you just gotta go with "whatever drops first". If the leather piece drops before the plate piece does then the warrior would either have to be feeling generous, not allowed or retarded to not go after it if it is an upgrade. You get upgrades when they come available. You can wait around for months for a specific drop and it only hurts your contribution to raid dps if you sit around waiting.

shiz98
05-01-2008, 01:28 PM
I don't understand how you think these two statements are compatible. Raid DPS increases fastest when the weakest items are replaced, regardless of the class in question.
Let's say we have leather gloves that increase a warrior's DPS by 50, or a rogue's DPS by 40. We also have plate gloves that increase a warrior's DPS by 30.

If the warrior takes the leather, the raid's DPS increases by 50.
If the warrior takes the plate and the rogue takes the leather, the raid's DPS increases by 70.

Sure, the bigger upgrade was for the warrior, but by taking the lesser upgrade and giving the leather to the rogue, there was a larger overall DPS gain.

Of course in reality it's not so cut-and-dry (random loot is random), but the point remains. Ideally, relative DPS gains should be weighed with opportunity cost in mind.

ebs2002
05-01-2008, 02:19 PM
Not THAT confusing, guys.

He's saying that it would increase faster over time, not over immediate results, by factoring in how easy it is for the rogue to get an upgrade versus the warrior to get that upgrade. If the warrior is likely to get an item in that slot over the next week (be it leather, mail or plate), and the rogue has little chance to take that upgrade, the raid WOULD benefit more from the rogue taking it over time, regardless of who gets more personal DPS from it for the rest of the night.

However, as he said, loot is random, and a 90&#37; chance of getting X in the next week still means that 1% of the time, you won't get X in the next two weeks, so it's all subjective anyway.

There's nothing wrong with thinking the way he thinks, just as there's nothing wrong with thinking the way you think. It's just a personal philosophy on how you acquire loot.

Corbusier
05-01-2008, 04:05 PM
However, as he said, loot is random, and a 90% chance of getting X in the next week still means that 1% of the time, you won't get X in the next two weeks, so it's all subjective anyway.

There's nothing wrong with thinking the way he thinks, just as there's nothing wrong with thinking the way you think. It's just a personal philosophy on how you acquire loot.
I think we will have to leave it here and call it a day.

Korlong
05-18-2008, 07:59 AM
The main reason why leather is often the best choice for a DPS warrior is that leather often has both agility and critical strike rating on it. This is something that you never see on plate, as within the context of a warrior or a paladin user, itemizing both agility and critical strike rating makes absolutely no sense, as they both do the same thing.

When the developers think within the context of a rogue or a hunter however, apparently this is fine. This whole problem has to do with itemlevel computations.

Per WoWWiki (http://www.wowwiki.com/Item_level#Calculating_Item_Level), if we let s1,s2,...,s3 E S, the set of stats on an item, then:


I = ((s1 * sm1)^(3/2) + (s2 * sm2)^(3/2) + ... + (sn * smn)^(3/2))^(2/3)where smn is the stat modifier for stat sn.

What this creates is the unnamed effect that everyone observes where it is better to stack several different stats than have a single high stat value. We can observe how this works by squaring some numbers:


2^2 = 4 3^2 = 9As we can see, increasing the base value by 50% (from 2 to 3) more than doubles the result. The same effect applies when raising numbers to the 3/2, just to a lesser degree. This means that the more you stack a single stat, the more dramatic that stat's contribution to itemlevel.

As a case study, consider the Heartshatter Breastplate:
Heartshatter Breastplate (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=32365) (ilvl 141)
63 Strength
41 Stamina
30 Hit Rating
44 Critical Strike Rating
If we plug the stats for this item into this itemlevel calculator (http://wow.virakar.com/stats/itemlevel.html), we get 139.847, as expected. Now, if we "tweak" the stats for this item:
63 Strength
41 Stamina
20 Agility
30 Hit Rating
34 Critical Strike Rating
This item is also itemlevel 139.631, however if we look at the critical strike provided by both versions of this chest:


44/23 = 1.91% (30/23) + (25/33) = 2.08%We can see that the new version provides noticeably more critical strike rating for the itembudget. In fact, the critical strike value provided by this item has increased by almost 10%. Applied across an entire set, you could stand to gain as much as 3% to crit(!).

As the itemlevel of items increases, this becomes more and more of a dramatic gain (I have observed that it first becomes noticable in Black Temple - think the Cursed Vision of Sargeras (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=32235), Boneweave Girdle (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=32346) - and becomes an outright problem in Sunwell). This is why we see things like the Demontooth Shoulderpads (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=34392) and the Gloves of Immortal Dusk (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=34370) constantly filling best in slot positions for warriors.

There are two possible conclusions that you can draw from this discussion, depending on how you look at it. The first is that dps itemization for warriors/paladins/shamans is fundamentally broken as compared to rogue/hunter itemization. The second is to observe that agility is totally broken as a stat. I subscribe to the second viewpoint.

The ancilliary conclusion that you can draw from this, is that this effect has a much greater benefit for shamans and paladins, due to their better agility/critical strike conversion rate. This is starting to become a big problem for warriors trying to keep pace at the leading edge of raiding, particularly as agility yields benefits beyond critical strike such as dodge and armor. In the example above I have gained almost 1% dodge, and 40 armor.

Korlong
05-21-2008, 10:21 PM
On a related note, the new Kiljaeden loot table has a new best-in-slot item for warriors:

http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/images/news/2008/may/coifofalleria.jpg

And an awesome fist weapon:
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/images/news/2008/may/handofthedeceiver.jpg

Then we also have an example of piss-poor itemization:
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/images/news/2008/may/borderlandpaingrips.jpg

Hey look, it's the Gloves of Immortal Dusk (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=34370) with less crit and bad sockets!

Graul
05-22-2008, 03:10 AM
There has never been any leather item that has dropped for us so far that has been a tangible upgrade over it's plate equivalent. The only items that I know of so far that are a big boost over their plate counterparts are the Gloves of Immortal Dusk and the Bladed Chaos Tunic. The chest isn't even a big upgrade over the crafted bp, but both of them are a pretty large upgrade over what came before them and the tunic would be the first leather item that I would actually ever consider taking over a 2nd Rogue, and that's really only if the plate pattern doesn't drop for months and months.

Leather is fine, just don't be so anal about stats that you are going to be taking away from non wearing plate classes. It won't be helping the raid...and if you really want your DPS to increase, you would make sure everyone else is in the best gear as well. Faster kill times = inflated DPS.


So, if swapping out leather for plate is going to make that much of a difference in particular fight, that same difference could be had again by dropping a rogue in. My point is that if the leather gear DPS will actually make a tangible, important difference on encounters, a rogue should be there instead of a DPS warrior.Rogues can Battle Shout? Unless you are just a terrible Warrior of either spec, a Rogue will never ever bring more RDPS than a single Warrior...period.


the best-in-slot items for legs/chest/gloves/shoulders at the very least all are leather, and often by a wide margin, like the gloves that Boom mentioned.

The only notable items are the gloves and chest, and the chest is only really great if you are not a blacksmith or the plans simply never drop. The shoulders on the other hand are nice, but only best in slot if you cannot get the 4pc Onslaught. If you factor in the set bonus, despite the stats difference, the Onslaught are still the best until the expansion.

Shortypop
05-22-2008, 03:33 AM
I found this an interesting read, ofc highly dependent on your guild's loot rules, one thing that I haven't seen addressed, maybe because it's a non-issue is the large difference in general between +hit wanted by rogues and +hit by warriors (to some extent fury but to a large extent arms). I'm guessing that this may not be an issue as you're talking about the odd leather piece, not half or more of your gear - right (?).

Tatt
05-22-2008, 01:09 PM
I apologize if this point has already been raised and I did not see it, but it appears that for the most part plate gear has strength, where as leather usually has AP instead. I have had the idea beaten into my skull that AP is bad because it does not buff the way strength does. So would not in most situations where the leather was on equal footing or even slightly better than the plate, you would choose the plate for the advantage in a raid setting?

Also had a question about fel leather gloves, I have seen a few warriors claim to love it, and considered getting some made. But when I compare it to ragesteel, also a pre raid item, I consider the ragesteel superior, especially when combined with the ragesteel shoulders for the 20 hit rating set bonus. Please bring the flames to tell me my error :)

Corbusier
05-22-2008, 01:45 PM
The AP vs Str issue is relatively minor. The leather items that are good for fury have loads of AP, but ALSO crit/agi, hit, arp, etc, and often just have a better balance of stats. You'll never see two items (one leather, one plate) with the same stats save for AP on the leather and Str on the plate.

In other words, you can't make decisions in a vacuum, you must consider ALL the variables.

Tatt
05-22-2008, 02:09 PM
Ok, so would fel leather gloves be better than ragesteel, if I am getting the 20 hit rating set bonus?

ebs2002
05-22-2008, 02:22 PM
Just keep in mind that:
If you're fury, you multiply the AGI and STR on your items by 1.1 to get the actual amount of AP/Crit (Kings)
If you're prot, you multiply the AGI by 1.1 (Kings) and the Str by 1.21 (Kings + Vitality) to get the actual stats.

When comparing two items, you don't ALWAYS take the strength. Mithril Chain of Heroism vs Vindicator's Pendant of Triumph, you have 24.2agi (=0.73% crit) and 61/68ap (fury/prot numbers), versus a raw 1% crit and 50ap plus an +8str gem (extra 17/19 atk power), and it's pretty clear that the Pendant is better even though it doesn't have the raw str/agi.

Nuberino
05-22-2008, 03:40 PM
Tatt I would go with the fel leather gloves the moment you got a better shoulder to replace the ragesteel shoulders.

The fel leather gloves are just a bit worse than the ragesteel gloves + 2 piece bonus, but piece vs piece they are a bit better than the ragesteel gloves alone.

At least thats my plan... now just attaining a better shoulder piece /sigh

Tatt
05-22-2008, 04:18 PM
Yeah Nub, at our level of progression dps shoulders with hit rating on them are ridiculously hard to find :( Now why did you have to give my bracers to Merish!!!! :P