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View Full Version : Hitting a brick wall!!! - Any ideas please.



Gangrene
04-29-2008, 01:51 AM
Following a month of phenomenal progress by my guild (5/6 SSC, 3/4 TK, Gruul and Maggy on Farm and Rage downed in Hyjal) it seems that we are now wiping on the simplest of fights. The guild (Zero Tolerance oN Al'Akir EU (Horde)) has recruited several new players but these new recruits check out on armoury and should have the experience to one shot most of the bosses we have downed so far. Following numerous wipes on Solarian last night and wipes on other bosses over the past week and a half I feel its time to see what ideas anyone has on strengthening and improving my guild set up. Any ideas are greatly appreciated.

Gangrene - Guild Leader Zero Tolerance, Al'Akir EU , Horde

Silthias
04-29-2008, 03:36 AM
What exactly are the reasons for the problems you are having? More tahn happy to try and help, but the post lacks alot of the important information that we would need to help.

Regards,

Silthias

Gangrene
04-29-2008, 03:59 AM
Firstly I can say that all the core raid team are geared in 2 or 3 pieces of T5 or the new badge gear , healers have 1800+ bonus healing with best healers having 2300+ healing. Tanks are all 16500+ HP unbuffed with standard SSC/TK stats. DPS are standard mixture of caster and melee with all kara, gruul, maggy, and some SSC/TK gear and put out a decent amount of DPS.
Over the past month we have gone from having lurker and VR down to become a guild with 5/6 in SSC, 3/4 in TK and Rage downed in Hyjal.
Raid leaders are either myself (main tank) or a dedicated raid leader in the guild. We are using all standard add-ons - vent, DBM and OMEN. All boss tactics are expiained clearly by the raid leaders and alarms are voiced over vent for bosses like Solarian and Lurker. Recently we have recruited specific classes to the guild and all have been checked on armoury and via trial raids into Gruul and Maggy.
Over the past week and a half we have struggled on every boss encounter we have attempted , even Gruul - with a fantastic wipe coming from an experienced member standing right next to the main tank at the shatter stage of the fight. Other bosses we are struggling with are Solarian - with people that have the Wrath de-buff deciding not to run and stay right in the middle of the raid therefore wiping the raid in one shot. We have also struggled on Fathomlord with no interrupts coming from the rogues and warriors on the priest add meaning tht its taking longer than normal to down the adds and therefore the boss enrages wiping the raid in magnificent style.

Now I have gone about this diplomatically and have gone over tactics time and time again and have threatened negative DKP and raid kicks for people that consistently mess up and wipe the raid.

Now I am not sure if its just a case of people slacking thinking that cos we have downed these bosses before that the raid will be EZ mode and they can just slack off, or is it a case that we have simply progressed too quickly and should cool off the raiding and focus on maybe just the first 3 bosses in SSC including Leo and also just VR in TK.

This is getting real frustrating for both me and the rest of the guild and any ideas you have to improve raid performance would be really appreciated.

Gangrene - Guild Leader- Zero Tolerance , Al'Akir EU, Horde

Fayre
04-29-2008, 05:18 AM
Well, it doesn't sound like gear is an issue. It sounds like experience (or just being plain stupid) is.

You have progressed very fast. That's not a bad thing but it does mean that not everyone in the raid group will necessarily have the most experience of each boss you've killed. How many 'new' people are you taking to nights where it all goes wrong? Is that where the issue comes... i.e. the new guys are still learning the fights? Or are there particular people who blow up the raid again and again?

Do you guys use WWS at all? Posting reports from raid nights (even disasterous ones) can help people see what they're doing wrong and motivate them to do better. Even with the best of gear you have underperformers.

I think you're in a bit of a dangerous position, honestly. After stellar progress it's going to hit people hard to wipe on the easy things. Focussing down on a few bosses and getting some kills is a good idea, but you should also be working on your next kill forward, or the great performers on your guild may start getting a bit ... itchy.

Good luck!

Gangrene
04-29-2008, 05:38 AM
Thus far I have not used WWS but will definitely look into it, sounds like it could be useful to "embarass" the under-performers into getting their act together. With regards to new people coming into the raids, thats not a problem , the past few times its been experienced raiders that have been messing things up for us and wiping the raids and we try to only take a couple of new guild members on the raids at a time so as to make sure we dont flood the raid with people that dont know the fight.

We initially started out as a casual raiding guild maybe raiding 3 or 4 times a week , but more recently we have dropped kara and have been focussing on 25 mans and have been raiding 7 days a week - starting at 19.00 on mon-fri and 14.00 on saturday and sunday, we have consistently one shotted the likes of Leo and Fathomlord and everyone is keen to finish Kael and Vashj. Checking on progress of other guilds on the server I can see that in comparison we have progressed extremely fast, we have absoloutely demolished the bosses we have downed so far and one shotted fathomlord and solarian on our first try. It is only the past 10 days we have had trouble and people are already starting to get "itchy" and threatening to leave if it continues.

Do I need to start to think about /gkicking these underperformers and consolidate the rest of the guild or do I persist with these people and pressure them to start performing once again. (You gotta love being a guild leader).

Help needed please!!

Gangrene - slowly going mad with the pressure of being a GM and Raid leader (Why me!!!!)

Silthias
04-29-2008, 07:25 AM
Well there are a few different things you could do:

1) Kick the people messing up. - This is drastic and whilst it may scare others into trying hard for a bit, its not the method of motivation you want to use.

2) Keep going at it again and again untill they change. - This will upset people as noone likes to wipe.

3) Stop the raids from going as fast and focus on the bosses more.

Though whichever one you do I would suggest going toa 5 day raid scedule, sounds bit like burnout, or the start of it. give your guys time off, make them have it even if they dont think they need it, as they do. Do this then go for say 2 days farm, one in SSC and one in TK. Make it clear that that is all that you get in there, this will make them focus to get the place cleared, if they dont focus, they dont clear and dont get the drops they want. If they clear then brilliant, However don't expect tehm to clear at the start of this, they will be laid back and expect it easy from the sounds of things, reducing the time they have in there will make them wake up and pay attention.

With the other 3 days go for your new bosses, have them wiping on a new boss day in day out, unless ofc you down it, then go for the next. This will make them fcus yet again or make them give up, the ones that give up well they are not the ones you want if you want progress, so its no loss, and if they dont give up, well then they will start learning the fight and realising they need to be at teh top of their game to beat the thing. This should then change the attidude in general, and then the next "farm" night where they are in SSC/TK, well then they will be more focused and will do better, whihc in turn boosts morale and performance.

This is what I would do if it were me, with my raid group, as they thrive on the challenge, tel them we can downa boss and tehy take it easy, tell them im not farming anywhere else till the boss goes down, well the boss goes down the next try ussually.

Hope even if you dont use my method it has given you some idea in how to remotivate your raid group.

Regards,

Silthias

Amthua
05-26-2008, 11:44 AM
just beacuse a boss is on farm, it doesnt mean a fight can be done with people slacking. getting this idea through your raiders heads is very important.

even if you've killed hydross, say...30 times...on the 31st kill if people pull him across the imaginary line 5 times in one attempt, it will still be a wipe.

i would focus on a few things:

1.) Stress how important it is to focus each boss attempt, no matter how many times you have done it. Make sure each individual is executing and performing their specific rolls in the fight, and make sure they realize that they still have to perform them.

2.) let them know you will not progress to new content if they cannot get the farm stuff down. a raid week is only a maximum of 7 days, and each hour, day, wasted, is less time seeing new content.

3.) remember where you came from. you must keep your raiders humble to an extent, but also instill them with the confidence they need to have each and every night.

25 players can easily raid every night. thats a given. but having someone who can lead those 25, who can motivate them, and get them to perform each night through the ups and downs is really what defines a raid leader or guild leader.

Vapes
06-05-2008, 01:20 PM
If you have 1-2 people doing stupid things constantly it's a little different than a person here or there. People get relaxed with fights, or think they know it enough to push where they don't need to. Extra DPS because they know it's going to hit right before and not after a transition, silly things like that, which aren't needed and can wipe.

Statistically it might seem like a great group of people where each person only screws up once every 25 fights, but on fights like Hydross and Solarian, bad enough luck with those 25 fights and you'll wipe all night.

As a Raid leader you owe it to the raid to let them know what went from and to try to solve the problem, that doesn't mean you have to solve in infront of them in vent or in raid chat though. Being embarassed in front of the whole guild can make people realize they did wrong, and can also make them gquit, and really, when you pull Hydross or blow up the raid on Solarian, how much extra proof do they need to know they screwed up.

/w wiper You just killed the raid, sucks. Do you know what went wrong and what to do different?

If it happens again, pull someone in off the wait list if you have someone there. Just try to have all this sort of stuff written on your forums before. You're much less a dick in their eyes when you're following SOP than when you're making a gut, heat of the moment, decision not in their favor.

Maybe it's just the people that I work with, but if someone wipes the raid twice, I often get a whisper from them saying something like "I understand if you want to replace me." After something like that, they feel like crap, they don't need your help in the matter generally (in feeling like crap that is).

Kream
06-05-2008, 01:39 PM
You are covering a lot of ground every week with your raiding schedule. By the time your raid is back to Solarian, it sounds like your average raider has fought Gruul, HKM, Maggy, 5 bosses in SSC, and 2 in TK. Thats 10 different bosses with 10 different strategies to remember. You might consider dropping some farm bosses out of the schedule.

Also on Fathom Lord, rogues can get frozen and are then unable to interrupt the heal. I prefer having a shaman and we have a lock put curse of tongues on the priest.

minrog
06-09-2008, 01:15 AM
Gangrene, our guild has done exactly the same thing you have described and had the same results. We one shotted Karathress/Rage/Solarian on our first attempts and it only took a couple of pulls to get Anetheron. Then the next week we wiped on VR, wiped on Solarian (5 times), had clicking issues on Mag, wiped 4 times on the trash leading up to Morogrim and failed to down Leotheras.

Our GM was at his wits end and very frustrated (hehe) and he made us take a week off. We had been raiding really hard from February to May and I think what got us was fatigue and exhaustion. After the week off we went back in and refined our strats a bit on Anetheron and the other bosses, and we've gotten back to a fairly decent win %. I think the adrenaline rush from killing new bosses just ran out and we were going too fast to keep it up forever, but I'm not sure. On Kazgolar we ran into a DPS check we couldn't meet so we're stuck farming anyway, with 5/6 ssc 3/4 tk 2/5 MH and everything prior killed we're going to spend a few weeks just building up DPS before we try to take out new bosses except early BT maybe.

We did bring in some new guys to replace the ones who burned out and even if they have decent gear and know the areas every guild runs the encounters slightly different. It's just going to take a bit of time I think for you to get your feet on the ground before you make a big push through Tier 6.

Clifford
06-09-2008, 05:31 AM
Some thoughts that may help ...

It is important to keep a constant stream of recruits - one of the best pieces of advice that I heard/read somewhere here was to recruit ahead of your need as people will leave/stop playing.

Secondly I have changed my recruitment approach a bit and now focus more of people's skill and dedication than their gear. Too often I have recruited people with good gear who fail. Finding people that have a lot of raiding experience preTBC helps and ensure that the people you recruit are hungry to raid and not just wanting easy bosses and loot.

Lastly it is important to push progress - another great piece of advice from Ciderhelm. Farming bosses is the quickest route to burn-out in my opinion. Find new challenges either by facing new bosses or clearing trash quicker.