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Futeko
04-24-2008, 04:55 AM
Since I've read in unofficial patch notes for patch 2.4.2 that Nightfall is going to be nerfed, I've been looking for alternatives in case it actually makes it to the live realms.

I've noticed Frostguard, which could be nice if its proc stacked with TC ; I've searched through many sites but I couldn't find any information about that possibility. I guess it doesn't stack with TC since other weapons with a similar proc (Riftmaker, Thunderfury, ...) do not, but has anyone actually tested it ?

I've also noticed Bashguuder, which stacks with Sunder Armor and itself as far as I've read, which would then add another 1200 armor reduction to the boss, which then would result in a decent boost for the melee DPS, but I don't know if it still works at Lv70.

If you have any information regarding those weapons, or other alternatives, I'll be glad to hear your advice :)

Armstrong
04-24-2008, 01:54 PM
Bashguuder

Best weapon name ever.

Fame
04-24-2008, 02:10 PM
-As a heads up, Bashguuder does not stack with itself (not if you dw them, or if someone else is using it aswell.. you will still only get one debuff)
-It also does not stack with Rivenspike
-Hamstring can proc it.
-Proc is high enough that for the most part auto attacking will keep it up.
-Uptime is 30 sec, every time it procs, the debuff refreshes itself.

Kavtor
04-24-2008, 02:13 PM
It'd be nice if there was an actual L70 variant designed for an OT to use, instead of trying to gimick out old weapons until they get nerfed. Illidan is especially bad. Trying to pretend to be useful wearing FR & Defense gear for 4/5ths of the fight.

Futeko
04-24-2008, 04:51 PM
Thanks for the feedback :)

Yes, I found out that Bashguuder and Rivenspike debuffs do not stack since they share the same debuff (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=17315); however it seems like it would stack with the debuff (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=16928) applied by Annihilator since it is a different one :o.
If I'm not mistaken, both debuffs applied means -1200 armor on an already sundered target, which would result in an increase of approx. 5-6% DPS for the physical DPS, which is far from being negligeable :o

Narshe
04-24-2008, 11:45 PM
So all these low weapons debuff the boss to get more armor reduction? :S

juggernauth
04-25-2008, 01:21 AM
I'll work on getting both weapons this weekend, and I'll try it out :)

Futeko
04-25-2008, 02:15 AM
So all these low weapons debuff the boss to get more armor reduction? :S
That's what they should do in theory :o. However, since I wasn't able to gather much data (almost nothing on popular DBs such as Wowhead, Thotbott, WoWwiki, ...), I can't say for sure what will happen when you'll swing those at a Lv73 boss. For example, Blizzard may have nerfed them a while back without changing the tooltip, or the Lv73 bosses may be immune to it. And I've got no confirmation that the two different debuffs (still ?) stack.

Since it applies an "armor reduction" debuff, mobs that aren't immune to armor reduction effects should be affected, and since their individual debuffs stack with sunder armor, I don't see why they should not stack with eachother since they're different. So I'm like 90% sure that it works.

I'm working on getting the drop from LBRS and the crafted one, I'll share the results as soon as possible, if juggernauth does not obtain them before me :).

Futeko
04-25-2008, 03:43 AM
Nightfall now has a chance to fail on targets over level 60.
It's in the latest PTR patch notes, so I guess it's official :(

ebs2002
04-25-2008, 09:17 AM
A chance to fail is not the same as "won't work at all", though, so this may not be as big of an issue as people are making it out to be.

Fame
04-25-2008, 10:15 AM
I'll work on getting both weapons this weekend, and I'll try it out :)

Please do since i dont feel like spending 400g on the mats for Annihilator.

Kamani
04-25-2008, 08:33 PM
Damn. Minithunderfury would be nice to have on non threat fights. /lazy

Futeko
04-27-2008, 10:13 AM
Tried with Annihilator and Rivenspike ; the debuffs do stack, but the PPM is quite bad. I'll share some more information once i'll have done some more testing :)

Fame
04-27-2008, 10:14 AM
Did you try Spamstring or just auto attacks

Futeko
04-27-2008, 12:57 PM
I just had the time to duel a Ret. Paladin once ; he stood there doing nothing while I was slapping his back with the weapons. I spammed Harmstring as much as I could.

It took like 30 seconds before I saw the first proc, then I was able to stack that particular debuff 3 times before the second one showed up. However I was not able to keep the first one refreshed.

I put Rivenspike in my OH and Annihilator in my MH. I thought that since Annihilator is the fastest, given similar PPM I'd be better spamming yellow attacks with the one with the less chance to proc than with the other.
However, I think it's a bad reasoning since the proc from Annihilator lasts 45 seconds, while the proc from Rivenspike lasts 30 seconds, thus the latter has to be refreshed more often. Given a 1 PPM rate, I have to proc Annihilator 25% faster to keep the debuff refreshed, while I have to proc Rivenspike 50% faster.
I'll do some more testing when I'll have the chance, and I'll put Rivenspike in my MH and Annihilator in my OH. Also, I can't just spam Harmstring, else I'll get yellow attacks only for my MH - which makes it impossible to keep the debuff from my OH refreshed since my OH will only do white attacks with a PPM of approx. 1. I have to spam WW too, but it's way more rage consuming :s.

Maybe that the best thing would be to have two people wielding the weapons ...

Futeko
04-27-2008, 02:47 PM
In my opinion, an off-tank faces two choices when not required to tank in a boss fight :

- He/she plays the role of a DPS.
- If the adds and/or the boss is tauntable, he/she stays in prot. gear in order to replace a tank who'd have died.

For the first choice, the off-tank can have a decent DPS but for that he needs a full DPS gear, which is not my case and will probably not be before a long time.
For the second choice, the off-tank assumes that whatever he/she does, he/she won't bring out a DPS that will even top the worst true-DPS of the raid, and so seeks his/her utility elsewhere (refreshing Demo shout/Thunderclap, wielding weapons which apply a debuff to the mobs, ...).

My DPS in prot. spec is really bad because I don't have a full DPS gear (have but a few blues and 2 epics), so I'd rather apply a debuff that will upgrade the DPS of the true-DPS.

Nuberino
04-28-2008, 09:17 AM
A determining factor would be how good your melee dps is and how many of them there are... If you add say 5% to 7 physical damage dpsers each doing 1k dps. you have added 350 dps to the raid. Maybe a bit more since you are buffing the tanks as well... so maybe 400dps to the raid. That is pretty substantial with the benefit of being able to stay in your full tank gear.

If you were at a higher level of gear (take this parse, Wow Web Stats (http://wowwebstats.com/m6g46rpaldyfu?s=4433-4609&m), with 9 melee dps pumping out huge dps numbers) if the OT was able to keep up the debuff for most of an encounter he would be adding somewhere around 1000-1200 dps with the debuffs alone.

If you were to run with a smaller number of dps then the advantages would be greatly decreased.

The breaking point of these bebuffs value would hinge on your dps gear (can you put out more dps than the debuff would across the raid), can you keep the debuff up refreshed for the majority of the fight, and do you need to stay in your tank gear for any reason.

Fame
04-28-2008, 11:57 AM
I'll do some more testing when I'll have the chance, and I'll put Rivenspike in my MH and Annihilator in my OH.

Annihilator is MH only. From the testing that my friend did, it also seems that the Annihilator proc is terribad!

Kamani
04-28-2008, 02:43 PM
Anybody tested out frostguard? PPM?

Sandal
05-03-2008, 03:19 PM
Bad news, look up the comments on Annihilator here (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=12798#comments) (comment by klarno)


As a prot paladin, there's relatively little I can do when I don't need to tank the boss, when my target is dead or when all I need to do is stand there and eat half a cleave. The other raid buff option, Nightfall, is getting nerfed in 2.4.2 (tests on the PTR have shown that it has a proc rate of <0.1&#37; at lvl 70). If the Annihilator is viable, we'll have one very happy prot paladin.

The only question for this weapon is---does it stack with Faerie Fire?

The other armor old world armor reduction weapons were nerfed such that they can no longer stack with Faerie Fire back in patch 1.8.

WoW -> Patch Notes -> 1.8 (http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/patchnotes/patch1p8.html)
The Puncture Armor ability found on the Rivenspike, Bashguuder, Digmaster 5000, and Vibroblade will no longer stack with Faerie Fire.
Annihilator of course isn't mentioned on this nerf, and would have existed at the same time as these others...and the proc is different from the 30 sec debuff on the rivenspike and bashguuder, and the 100 armor debuff on digmaster and vibroblade. On Annihilator, the debuff lasts 45 sec and is called Armor Shatter.

I probably won't be getting this weapon, however, until someone can demonstrate whether or not this proc stacks with faerie fire...because otherwise it's useless if you have a feral or balance druid in the raid.

chronucard
05-03-2008, 06:26 PM
Tested it with a friend and faerie fire knocked off rivenspikes buff but not annihilators. Also on ptr annihilators not main hand only, so you can put it in the off hand and put the slow rivenspike in the main. Thats of course if you don't have any druids around to throw up faerie fire.