PDA

View Full Version : Your Guild can't down lurker or VR.



Daavos
04-23-2008, 01:48 PM
You're a tank, but your guild can't seem to progress past Gruuls.

How many wipes on on Mags, lurker and void rever must you suffer before you can throw in the towel and move on? I'm up to 45 days of constant wipes. Tony Robinson couldn't pick up our moral at this point.

hbombs
04-23-2008, 01:51 PM
If you like the people in your guild i would stick it out man. Make sure you all still farm kara and get badge gear.

So if you are thinking about leaving I would suggest calling out the terrible players non stop and who knows.. they will either realize they suck and get better or get mad at you and kick you out. either one you win!

klor
04-23-2008, 01:53 PM
If you like the people in your guild i would stick it out man. Make sure you all still farm kara and get badge gear.

So if you are thinking about leaving I would suggest calling out the terrible players non stop and who knows.. they will either realize they suck and get better or get mad at you and kick you out. either one you win!


Bad Hbombs bad! You dont want to leave a guild with a sour note. Talk to the guild leaders/raid leader. Try to work out the problems with the guild and if they don't then explain to them why you're leaving. Maybe it will save them the trouble in the future.... or not. Atleast you wont get a bad rep going to another guild.

hbombs
04-23-2008, 01:55 PM
haha yea yea dont listen to my last suggestion. Your reputation is very important. If you leave on a bad note it can hurt your chances on getting into a new guild. Plus you may want to help out that old guild on an off night or do joint runs in the future you never know.

Danach
04-23-2008, 02:15 PM
Back when we only raided t5 content for 3 hours 1 day a week it was similar for us. We spent 4 weeks on lurker, and 4 on VR like that. That was followed by 6 weeks of hydross wipes. Things got better though. People learned and improved and I stuck it out. In the end, if you enjoy the people you raid with keep going, and look for what may be wrong in your strategies. Just because bosskillers or even tankspot has a strat posted does not mean it is the strat that is going to work for your raid. Play to your strengths.

veneretio
04-23-2008, 03:54 PM
You're a tank, but your guild can't seem to progress past Gruuls.

How many wipes on on Mags, lurker and void rever must you suffer before you can throw in the towel and move on? I'm up to 45 days of constant wipes. Tony Robinson couldn't pick up our moral at this point.
Could you please describe...

1. Your group composition overall (tank, dps, healer types & numbers)
2. Your group composition for the tank group (where you are)
3. Who is leading the raid? (class, roll)
4. Level of gear (everyone's kara progress? za?)
5. How often do you raid each week?

Crommi
04-24-2008, 04:40 AM
You might also want to consider focusing on one boss at the time.
Currently my guild has dropped VR completely until we have 6/6 SSC and it has worked well so far (our tanks are damn good and T5 shoulder's wont make a difference). Our progress has been really fast after getting Hydross down; Lurker down on second night, Tidewalker down on second night and FLK on second pull.

Daavos
04-24-2008, 07:56 AM
1. Your group composition overall (tank, dps, healer types & numbers)

4 tanks (2 prot, 1 druid, 1 tankidan); 5 - 6 healers, the rest are the dps

2. Your group composition for the tank group (where you are)

MT - I don't need anything from Kara, or Gruual. ZA gear would be nice, but everyone wants to do Kara badage runs. Unbuffed I'm at 16.5k armor and 15k in health. I use the S1 chest for tanking with +12 stamina gems because I never got the damn drop from kara and the other tank dkp'd the T4 chest from Mag and then decided to go fury. I'm 30 badages short from the badge chest.

3. Who is leading the raid? (class, roll)

The druid tank. he's also the guild leader. he's kind of a dick too. yelling at everyone in vent.

4. Level of gear (everyone's kara progress? za?)

Yes for Kara. No, for ZA (a few members are). Almost everyone has 2 piece of T4 gear or the equivlent in badage gear or pvp gear (i know we don't encourage pvp gear, but what can you do)

5. How often do you raid each week?

4 nights.

The problem last time with lurker is one of the tanks didn't pick up the add right away and teleported to the island and 2 shoted everyone.

On the second attempt (I can't see everything as I'm tanking lurker) during the first submerge 1 or 2 people are dying, making the second submergeimpossible to get then all down.

We can only get lurker to 50%.

For void rever the healers and dps are getting wacked by the orbs.

Anyway how long did it take you guys to down lurker?

bosephus
04-24-2008, 08:20 AM
We downed VR and Lurker on the second night for each.

Void Reaver is a little more tricky because none of the addons work to warn about orbs anymore, but it still shouldn't be that hard to avoid. Have your ranged characters stand in an evenly spaced out ring around the room. When an orb comes to them, they must run forward and backwards only. If they run to the side, they endanger themselves and others with another orb. This includes the healers, even though they're trying to get off one last heal. If the orb doesn't kill the healer, they'll be silenced anyway. Your ranged characters should be taking no hits with the orbs...if one of them continuously dies, you need to talk with that person to figure out what they're doing wrong, or replace them for the fight.

If you have a resto shaman or two, have them chain heal the melee group and stand in with the poundings, so they don't have to run to avoid orbs. Finally, all dps should use whatever aggro drops they can (vanish, ice block, etc) due to VR's punt ability on the tanks.

For the adds on Lurker, they always spawn in the same spot, so once the tanks figure out where that spot is, there's no reason why they shouldn't be able to wrangle their assignments. Use CC on the other adds that appear on the platforms to minimize their damage to the raid.

Both of those fights test the situational awareness of each member of your raid. If you have people that are consistently missing their assignment or dying, consider finding a replacement if they can't be coached to correct their issues.

Hypatia
04-24-2008, 08:48 AM
A further note on VR is to make sure your ranged people are either well separated or right on top of each other. It's easier to spot that you should run out when an orb is coming right at you than it is when the orb is a little to one side or the other—so, if two people are close enough that their orbs will hit the other person, they might as well stand right on top of each other to make it easier.

Daavos
04-24-2008, 09:49 AM
Both of those fights test the situational awareness of each member of your raid. If you have people that are consistently missing their assignment or dying, consider finding a replacement if they can't be coached to correct their issues.

I believe this is our problem. There's always 5 people in the raid who are in lal-la land. We've removed a number of members for this continuious reason, but we always seem to have 3 or 4 dps players in the raid that try to coast through the raid. I think we've all seen these players in pug groups.

Idk what to do, it's so discouraging. I feel sometimes if I had spent the last month and half just pugging 1 heroic instance a night I would have progressed my character further in badage gear by now.

Thanks for the tips on the encounters.

Shortypop
04-24-2008, 10:22 AM
A couple of questions/things to think about: (in no particular order)

- How easy are the Gruul kills - people manage to stay out of shatters etc?
- Mag is worth a look, he's significantly easier after 2.4 and only requires 5 people with working brains and a lock or two for the adds.
- 5-6 healers, sounds a little low. We usually run with 7, but depending on what's killing you this may not be the problem
- What's your number's turn-over for raid nights. ie. if you raid monday and tuesday - what percentage of the raid is common across both nights. All the fights mentioned do take a bit of getting used to (at least for the normal mortal) and if your turnover is high that might be adding to the problem. I'd suggest focusing on lurker or maggy (add mag onto your gruul night) as they are both trash-lighter/easier than VR (imo).
- How often does your guild clear kara and how long does the average clear take? You want to be breezing through in 3-4hours with very little problems.

loquatious
04-24-2008, 10:30 AM
Anyone caught in a spout after 1 night of practice should be asked to sit out of situational awareness fights, they "stand in the fire".

Frankly they are just crappy players and Ideally you should ease them out of raiding or the guild.

VR Orbs have gotten devilishly tricky, the next patch is going to bring some relief.

Daavos
04-24-2008, 11:51 AM
- How easy are the Gruul kills - people manage to stay out of shatters etc?

Before we kick a bunch of members it was hit and miss. Last time we did we one shoted it. But at the same time I was ahead in dps over one of the mages and a hunter. It's taking too long in my opinon. I beleive were getting him by grow 12 and 15 depending the make up of the raid.

Sadly, I don't think they try to avoid shatter by running out.

- Mag is worth a look, he's significantly easier after 2.4 and only requires 5 people with working brains and a lock or two for the adds.[I]

This is hit and miss when us too. The last time i was MTing him we got him down 10% and I died. The first time I got stun by the cave in (?) and hit by mag with no Shield Block up.

The second time we got to 8% and I took 3 hits without a heal inbetween and died. It went 5000 (Blocked XXX damage), 6000 (blocked xxx damage ), Shield Block fades, Crushed for 10,000. It happened so fast, I didn't react in time with pots, health stones, etc (I had already poped Shield wall on the previous try and I had used last stand earlier in the fight). Then Raid leader Druid wanted to try and tank. We wipe right off the bat to due to poor healing and the second attempt one the of the clicker's missed a click.
During both my tanking I kept thinking this is taking way to long.



[I]What's your number's turn-over for raid nights. ie. if you raid monday and tuesday - what percentage of the raid is common across both nights. All the fights mentioned do take a bit of getting used to (at least for the normal mortal) and if your turnover is high that might be adding to the problem. I'd suggest focusing on lurker or maggy (add mag onto your gruul night) as they are both trash-lighter/easier than VR (imo).

Our "core" member show up every raid. But sometimes we have to pug people in. I think we have a low turn out for raids. Everyone is sick of wiping.


- How often does your guild clear kara and how long does the average clear take? You want to be breezing through in 3-4hours with very little problems.

3-4 hours. We do it on Non-raiding nights or half of kara after a raid.

Shortypop
04-24-2008, 12:18 PM
Gruul doesn't sound too bad, we were at 15 when we started, but I guess you want to be nearer 12/13 after a few tries. You definitely don't want to be doing more dps than the dps as a warrior tank.

Unfortunately, it sounds as if you need to do some active recruitment to fill a few dps and healer slots. A couple of good people can encourage the others to pull their socks up. Depending on server, population etc this is not always the easiest thing to achieve however.

I would set your dps some benchmarks (even in kara) but definitely in gruul. If the officer-core is serious about raiding, get together run through your members gear, spec, enchant, consumable use and see where they can improve. You can always start by stating what gear/changes you know you need. You could even set minimum +damage and +heal amounts. Maybe state you are taking 2 weeks off raiding to focus on heroics/kara and gear up, while at the same time trying to recruit some members.

This ofc all depends on your desire to stay with the guild. I think there are very few people who would blame you for leaving given the current situation, but it depends if you think some key changes to officers/raiding ethos/guild attitude will make a big difference.

We're always here for advice and let us know how it goes

Danach
04-24-2008, 01:32 PM
For lurker, as has already been stated the adds always appear in the same place. One thing that is very important here though is that no one is healing until a tank establishes threat on the guardians. In our earlier attempts on lurker this was the #1 thing that was wiping us, as the guardian was teleporting to the healers before a tank could even get a hit off on them.

When we were having similar problems we started to use Gruul as our benchmark fight. If people wanted to continue on into T5 content they had to be able to do 650 dps on Gruul. While the number is fairly low, it ended up giving people a definable goal to work towards.

Taiglin
04-24-2008, 01:52 PM
Is anyone posting WWS logs of the fight? They have to extend their combat logging range but then is just a matter of turning the combat log on and off after the night. Use that to really see what is going on. Post the link on your guild boards and then tell people to review them. There are few greater motivators to DPSers than seeing how badly they suck compared to other members of their same class who blow them away. If needed take those logs and try to solicit feedback from class specific sites. A great many things can become apparent using that tool.

Hell just last night I looked at our SSC log for the night and saw a hunter who I hadn't raid with yet. He was basically using just autoshot. To say that his damage output sucked would be a vast understatement. Those sorts of things though are apparent in the game usually - especially if that person isn't the type to look outside the game for community sites. No the official forums don't count.

Chuunks
04-24-2008, 02:02 PM
It sounds like you are at the point my guild was when first starting out on 25 man content.

You are forced to take *everyone* so there's little incentive for someone to be better than his neighbor. "Why bother to enchant or gem right, gonna get to roll on some phat lewt soon!" People happy to have their weight carried ...

Two suggestions I have, which have already been mentioned, but they help us:
-- post WWS in a public spot, and point out the people who are sucking the life out of your raid. (Keep in mind that some fights, utility > DPS -- so use WWS correctly.)

-- open up recruitment in a very obvious and public way. Nothing is a bigger motivator than people thinking you're going to move their cheese.

Lunestone
04-25-2008, 03:16 PM
Bad Hbombs bad! You dont want to leave a guild with a sour note. Talk to the guild leaders/raid leader. Try to work out the problems with the guild and if they don't then explain to them why you're leaving. Maybe it will save them the trouble in the future.... or not. Atleast you wont get a bad rep going to another guild.

It's not always possible to leave a guild without bad feelings though... I was a guild from September 07 to March 08... I stayed for a few months of decreasing participation, tried to warn them repeatedly that we needed to recruit... needed to be more on top of things but eventually I got tired of trying to push everyone. I just decided they weren't as interested in progressing like they used to be and made the hard decision to move on.

When I left, things were actually pretty cool... those that were on were pretty nice about it and a lot wished me luck, so I thought it ended well. Within a few hours though, rumors started flying... people were saying I just left without a word that I didn't care about the guild - even though I was the one pushing to make sure signups were posted in a timely manner, that strats were posted, etc.

Come to now, I LOVE my new guild... it was totally the right decision, after many months of disorganization in moving thru SSC/TK, i'm in a guild that has cleared SSC and we're pushing Kael now. It's hard in some ways because i'm the "new tank" and have to be a bit humble learning fights that they have down - plus being behind on dkp. But i've seen all the bosses but Kael now and got my first tier 5 the other day :D In my first week I got three or four pieces of gear and few others along the way.... But I have to say just being able to see all the fights has been awesome :) Plus we'll prob go to MH soon :DDD

lorelye
04-26-2008, 03:46 AM
How long it takes to farm these, depends on guild management and recruiting. When I started my guild, we 1-shot Maulgar, Gruul & Mag on the first night - 2.5 hours total. We cleared 5/6 SSC in the first week.

But ... I recruited players who had gone out and farmed every piece of gear they could get on their own. It is a requirement for raiding in our guild, that they've farmed all those pesky badges, leveled tailoring or whatever they needed, to achieve the best they could, on their own.

Guilds that wipe on Gruul are generally filled with players who expect their gear to come from drops off bosses. If you can change their thinking on this point, maybe they have a chance. If not, gear yourself out, the best you can, and start guild shopping.
:)

Kamani
04-27-2008, 05:22 PM
To be honest, if you can't kill Lurker/VR then 90% of your guild half asses and doesn't do any work at all.

If you are willing to come to tankspot to grow as a raider and become better yet they aren't willing to watch Lurker spin in order to avoid spout then they don't deserve the right to keep you as a tank.

Leave em and find people as dedicated as yourself.

Daavos
04-28-2008, 08:59 AM
But ... I recruited players who had gone out and farmed every piece of gear they could get on their own. It is a requirement for raiding in our guild, that they've farmed all those pesky badges, leveled tailoring or whatever they needed, to achieve the best they could, on their own.

Guilds that wipe on Gruul are generally filled with players who expect their gear to come from drops off bosses. If you can change their thinking on this point, maybe they have a chance. If not, gear yourself out, the best you can, and start guild shopping.
:)


This is problem I'm starting to find in general. New 70's trying to move from greens to purples or PVP gear to PVE gear by running KARA repeatly and not bothering to get any of the Blue items that are sole/group quest rewards. I think we all know that some of the Blue items can be better for pve and most of the purple pvp gear I see on players these days. In my previous guild, before it folded, I searched wowhead.com for any all the items that I would need pre-kara, and some of them are ridiculiously easy to get, I don't see this anymore. Grom's axe comes to mind. I rarely see proc warriors using this item anymore. (author note: I have nothing against pvp gear - I use one to two items myself while tanking).


In any event, we had a bit of guild drama last week between the GL and few members and few of our healer's left. We end up trying a duel guild raid last night on Lurker and hydros. Our GL ended up annoying the other GL so much the other GL quit the raid.

And that pretty much made up my mind about my future with this guild.

Thank for all your helpful advice. I think I'm going to take summer break from raiding.

lorelye
04-29-2008, 03:26 AM
Our GL ended up annoying the other GL so much the other GL quit the raid.

That just cracks me up.

Anyway, good choice, take a break, see how you feel in a few weeks. Best luck to you!