View Full Version : Hydross and Threat?
04-23-2008, 06:58 AM
I'm at a loss here, Hydross is a DPS fight, so a tank wants to generate as much threat on him as possible.....but in Resist gear I only have around 400 SBV. This really makes me think the whole threat building thing is overrated
Regardless, would it be wise to have Shaman in my group for WF?
I could split the tanks, but I wouldn't wanna waste two shaman for WF instead of much needed healing or DPS buffs. Then we're losing Blood Pact though.
04-23-2008, 07:18 AM
Why would you waste a shaman in the tank group instead of putting them in the dps group?
And do you need the auras of both hunter and pally in there? Lock+Tree are great in the MT group, and both MT's should be near, if not at, resistance cap for their sequence.
04-23-2008, 08:06 AM
Hydross will leave you swimming with rage. remember kara when bosses hit hard? you actually put out good TPS because you had enough rage.
anyway except for the first phase dps will be on adds for a bit so you will have tons of threat. dont over think or complicate things. Just go to town on him with your normal rotation no one is gonna pull of you (unless you or they are terrible)
04-23-2008, 08:29 AM
Given that your dps should be concentrating on the adds (for the most part) before moving on to Hydross you should have an ample threat lead time to not really have to worry about threat.
04-23-2008, 08:29 AM
I'm at a loss here, Hydross is a DPS fight, so a tank wants to generate as much threat on him as possible...
This is your problem. Hydross is very much not a DPS race fight. It’s a control fight. If you outgear it and then come back and want to do it up quick and play sloppily, you will die horribly, even though the raid's DPS makes the enrage timer laughable.
So: Emphasize to people that it's about control, not racing. The thing that will kill you every time is the guy who thinks that "don't have DoTs/HoTs up during the transition" somehow magically doesn't apply to him.
The other thing that can kill you is really bad luck on miss/dodge/etc. on the transition. If possible, try to have a hunter available to misdirect on every transition. This isn't perfect—usually a MD won't keep Hydross from re-crossing the line if things are going bad—but, anything helps. (If you get unlucky one time in five, and the MD only helps one time in two, that still means you went from a 1/5 failure chance to a 1/10.)
For the miss/dodge thing: Consider +hit or expertise in any slot you can afford to have it. Probably that means your weapon and possibly your shield. If you can afford to swap a trinket out, the expertise trinket from magister's could be pretty awesome.
And finally: Like I said, it's really not about DPS, it's about control. You should also remind people, however that if they believe they might be in trouble during a transition, it's survivable—but only if they are standing on the correct side of the line after the transition. Healers who might have to drop a big heal at just the wrong time? They should try to position so that they'll be pulling Hydross deeper into his next destination, rather than making him cross back. (i.e. If Hydross is going to be going from nature -> frost next, healers who want to be able to safely throw out emergency heals should be standing on the frost side of the line.)
Same thing applies to anybody who thinks they might have done a DoT after they should have stopped. Be on the correct side of the line, and all is well.
On the tank side of things: All I can really say is that it's all about the burst at the very start of each phase, after the transition. If you're a warrior, make sure not to shield slam before he changes forms. Make sure to have a full rage bar coming in to your transition so you can throw the kitchen sink in quickly. Position yourself so that if Hydross runs for someone on the far side of the line after the transition, he has to run through you, giving you vital moments to land another hit.
And good luck!
Basically, what I do is attack Hydross when its not my phase to tank him, keep my rage bar at full, and keep up TC/demo for my fellow tank. I sometimes am forced to pick up a stray elemental as well, but I Always always always have a full rage bar for when I am picking up Hydross. It makes things much simpler.
As for the shaman in your group....I cannot remember the last time I was given a windfury totem... they are just too useful elsewhere and most groups dont have that many shaman to go around, and if they do, they usually have enough melee to accomodate it.
04-23-2008, 09:00 AM
I'm at a loss here, Hydross is a DPS fight, so a tank wants to generate as much threat on him as possible....
As mentioned above, it's not a true DPS race. As long as the fight is controlled properly, Hydross will die before the enrage timer.
As far as threat: your damagers will first be killing the 4 adds on each transition, before starting on Hydross. That should buy enough time for the current tank to build a significant threat lead, even in low-threat resist gear. By the time the damagers start catching back up on threat, it'll be time for the next transition.
Also: elemental melee attacks can't be blocked. Because of this, skip using Shield Block. That's an extra 10 rage every 5s that you can now use for generating more threat. Lots of newer tanks aren't aware of this special case going in, so it's worth mentioning to your tank team.
As for group layout: I usually set things up with 2 groups sharing the tanks (2 MTs and however many OTs for that night). Each group gets a NR and FrR aura.
04-23-2008, 12:13 PM
What I found to be the biggest help to me on Hydross was to use the 20 hit rating food, instead of stam food.
04-24-2008, 04:53 AM
Only threat you really need to worry about here as MT is that you get the timing right for HS+SS when he changes form.
After that you'll have some time to build threat while casters are AoE'ing the adds around you, so you shouldn't have too much trouble keeping him under control.
Our tank group looks usually something like this:
Shaman is there to put down both resistance totems and this way we can get all tanks buffed by using only one person. Our offtanks usually take two adds each, two infront of him and two from behind, and they really need that extra resistance to stay alive.
04-24-2008, 06:30 AM
We took Hydross down first night. Tanks guys ;D
05-29-2008, 07:10 AM
We have few problem with tanks dying on transition.
Our tanks run over the line with their back to Hydros.
Does this mean he is taking more damage? from boss hitting him in back. Our healers do not heal during this bit so they do not die on agro from it. Some one told me the tank should not put his back to the boss. I look through tanking guide here, it not showing/saying that tank must not have back to a boss.
Unlike mobs, a player cant dodge from behind, neither can he parry, so its ALWAYS a bad idea to run with your back away from a mob. The tanks have to strafe, "q" or "e" or rightclick +"a" or "d" are the standart bindings. The tank should be facing his shoulder towards hydross while moving over the line this way he will dodge/parry normaly but walk with normal speed. One can easily practice that with any mobs. another thing you can try is intervine sbody standing on the side you wanna drag him, either assign sbody to stand in range or just see who you can get, i used to do that for karatress when he gets the totem ability. intervined one of my healers to move out of range as fast as possible.
but again, NEVER face your back towards a boss!
05-29-2008, 10:58 AM
Thank you for the advice, I will pass it on :)
05-30-2008, 06:17 AM
Well I PM'd the tank with the exact text you wrote, above and this is his reply. ---- I know what you say makes sense. I had a chat with Bob about this and both of us run forward to transition the boss. We have been doing it that way since the very first time we tried Hydross and it has never been a problem. It might make the healing a bit trickier BUT it was only a problem with the healers we had the other night. The issue was leaving the transition to well into the 250% range not the transition itself I have to do what works to transition quickly and that means running forward. On this occasion I am going to reserve the right to listen to the advice, bare it in mind, but do what works for me. I am not being bloody minded. ------------ So we just have to hope they do not take too much damage and die,,like they did 3 times the other day.
05-30-2008, 06:31 AM
imo running anywhere while tanking Hydross is a mistake - it's all about control. What we do is when we want to transition (decision made by currently tanking tank) they raidwarn "Transition incoming to Tankname" then walk slowly backwards towards the transition point - this gives the dps a few seconds to stop dps'ing, gives HOT healers time to cross to right side of the line (if they want to) and ensures tanks stay within range of healers. The tank who will be tanking the next phase - walks at hydross' right or left shoulder, staying safely within melee range as hydross is moving slowly, and once the new tank has agro after the transition, slowly turns hydross round so he if facing the correct way to walk backwards towards the next transition.
Which tank was dying, is it possible that the "old" tank pulled agro off the "new" tank right at the start of the phase?
05-30-2008, 06:35 AM
The issue was leaving the transition to well into the 250% range not the transition itself
He's probably right about this part. The 250% mark is difficult for healers to keep up with, when Hydross is being repositioned. Easily fixed by moving Hydross during the 100% mark instead.
However, he still needs to know not to intentionally have his back to any boss, when repositioning them. Sounds like he doesn't use his mouse; if he wants to be the best tank he can be, keyboard turning will hold him back.
Again, you have the same amount of movement speed when you strafe as if you would move straight forward. The difference is, if you have the right angle to the mob, you will still dodge/parry/block attacks.
There are occasions in the game where you have to do that. For example the Illidary Council, the paladins consecration is only avoidable if you move out of it with normal running speed, and you dont, you really dont want to face your back at him ;)
And its generally one of our "dutys" as tank to avoid as much damage as possible and this is an avoidable dmg input.
In addition, if as he described hydross got into the 250% stack and a tank get hit from behind and recieved before that a lot of landed hits due to his movement, its surely not the healers fault and probably not even healable.
I dont to start an argumment with sbody i dont even know and neither i want you to do that, but i would say if this keeps being the reason for whiping at hydross your tanks should reconsider trying sthing different than they usually do.
And if sbody doesnt know how to see if the angle is right, how he has to move, just get a lvl 70 mob (wouldnt recommend a lower one since a mob can miss even if you're facing your back at him) and drag him around a lil.
The same with evasion from a rogue running after sbody and have a melee behind them, it doesnt help unless they strafe ;)
Yeah, i guess hydross got more a control fight, it did use to be back in the beginning a dps race, he did have a lil more hp and your gear pretty much sucked compared to what people re able to get know through badge vendors etc.
So as Shorty wrote above, just move him slowly stop dps etc, take your time ;)
05-30-2008, 08:24 AM
Which tank was dying, is it possible that the tank pulled agro off the tank right at the start of the phase?
The tank that I quoted, he died a few times taking Hydross over to the next tank. We take him to 100% and then move him.
05-30-2008, 10:39 AM
I was speaking to a healer, and he reminded me we had the same healers the night before reset, so it's not the healers who caused a wipe.They had HoTs on him. I think I just need to find a way to get the tank to stop putting his back to the boss. He is stuck in his ways and not very open to suggestions, as you can see in his reply. Thanks for the help all :) One lives in hope.