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Bloodwraith
04-22-2008, 06:29 PM
What to have for S4:

100 of each BG mark
75k honor
5k arena points
3-4k gold (to replace all enchants/ epic gems)
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Curse has a nice listing of links to gear, quotes, and info on the new season here:

Official Start Date for Season 4 Announced | World of Warcraft @ Curse.com (http://wow.curse.com/articles/details/10641/)
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S4 has been announced:

WoW Forums -> Arena Season 4 Coming Soon (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=7102930383&sid=1)


We’re currently planning to end the third Arena season and begin Arena Season 4 on June 24, 2008. This exciting Arena season will introduce the Brutal Gladiator set, and will also allow players to purchase Arena Season 2 items using the honor system. Please note that we will be resetting all Arena team and personal ratings. Players will still retain their Arena points and teams with this reset. The team and personal rating will simply be reset to the default 1500, allowing all teams to once again compete for top honors with a fresh start.

Also, with the end of the third season, players on the top teams from each battlegroup will receive their end-of-season rewards. These include Arena-specific titles that they can display proudly until the end of the new season, and, for the best of the best, an Armored Nether Drake. Please also be aware that with the end of the current season, all previous end-of-season titles will be removed.
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Blizzard tries to clarify the new arena rules, also seems to be a discussion of people using the way around arenas that I posted below this:

WoW Forums -> Arena Rating Calculation Clarification (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=6440951169&sid=1)


There has been some confusion regarding the changes to Arena Team and Personal rating calculations in patch 2.4.2 for those players with 100% participation on their team so we’d like to clarify how the system works now.

The adjustment to a team’s personal rating can vary based on the average personal rating of the other team while team ratings will always adjust based directly on the team rating of the other team. If the average personal rating of the players queuing for a game is more than 150 points below the team’s rating, the team will be queued against an opponent matching or similar to the average personal rating. Adjustments to your personal rating are based on the ratings by which the opposing team was queued.
If the opposing team was queued based on their team rating, your personal rating will be adjusted based on their team rating.

If the opposing team was queued based on their average personal rating, your personal rating will be adjusted based on their average personal rating.

Example:

Team A has a rating of 1550. Team B has a rating of 1750.

Team A has an average personal rating of 1520 for the members participating in the match. Team B has an average personal rating of 1490 for the members participating in the match.

Team A wins. Team A’s team rating is adjusted based off of a win over Team B’s team rating of 1750.

All members of Team A have their personal ratings adjusted based off of a win over Team B’s average personal rating of 1490 but it will be a smaller gain when compared to the rating their team got.


This change promotes having teams compete against players who’s ratings statistically match up best against them. In turn this will help provide the most competitive environment possible in the Arena.
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Goes to show players find a way around Blizz no matter how they change things, I saw this on my realm forums.


1x. Relatively high rated arena team, you will probably need a 1700+ rated team to begin with.
Personally, I bought one at 1730.

1x Friend to help you.

How do you do it?

1. Say you bought a 1700-ish team,
your personal rating should be at 1500. Now invite a friend to the team.

2. Queue up, instead of facing a 1700 rated team, 90% of the time you should meet a team in the 1500-bracket.
There's no shortcut here, you have to beat that team.

3. Upon winning, your team rating should go up from 5-7 rating most of the time, and your personal rating initially climbs 15-20 rating.

4. Keep beating the 1500-rated teams, after 15 games or so, your team rating should be at 1800 and your personal should be at 1670 or something like that.
As yours/your friends personal rating gets higher, it gets harder!
You will face teams of the lowest team members personal rating as long as it is over 150 below the team rating.
So what do you do? See step 5.

5. Have your friend leave and rejoin the team, he should be at 1500 personal rating,
that means you will now face 1500-rated opponents again
. Start playing with him and repeat 1-5.
Eventually your personal rating will even out with the team rating, last night I got to 1850 personal and team rating following this routine.
And all along I was fighting 1500-1600 team.

Questions and answer:

Q: Why did you have your friend leave and rejoin?
That way his personal rating gets reset to 1500, so that you have an anchor to keep you down in the 1500-bracket.

Enjoy guys!

Q:This works, but it gets hard the higher my own personal rating gets, is there a way to make sure I always face low rated teams even as my personal rating climbs?
If you want to get to 2k rating, you will eventually face 1700 rated teams in 2v2 (the average for you and your friends rating if you're at 1900 and he's at 1500)
There is a way to bypass this, I explain below.

Since you face teams equal to all the team mebers average rating, the most efficent way to use this exploit is to buy a 5v5 team, and have four friends help you.
This can be a bit tricky since you actually have to find 4 friends that's willing to play with you for your profit only,
but this will most certainly get you up to 2k+ teamrating and your own personal rating facing ONLY 1500-1600 rated teams.
The only difference is that you use a 5v5 team instead of a 2v2, so still use step 1-5.

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Blizzard recently has taken action against Win Traders:

Arenas: Actions against Win Trading | World of Warcraft @ Curse.com (http://wow.curse.com/articles/details/9695/)


Blizzard is now actively persuading those teams and players that participate in Win Trading in the arenas of World of Warcraft, they either remove all their items earned in the arena's (or close to) or close their account permanently. Another action they seem to take is removal of points earned.

This is great news, cheating is never a good thing and the players/teams that have been win trading really got out of hand -- it was so many of them. Apparently Blizzard have banned entire guilds that were win trading. Good riddance to them I say. What do YOU say?

Here's one of the offenders that received their notice of actions taken to their accounts due to being part of Win Trading in the Arenas.


Realm: xxxx
Character Name: xxxx
Account Action: 72 Hour Suspension
Offense: Arena Exploitation - Win Trading
Details: Player was verified to have been participating in the trade of Arena Team wins to artificially inflate their or another team’s Personal and Team Ratings.
Arena Currency Removed: 5000
Item(s) Removed:

Vengeful Gladiator's Spellblade
Vengeful Gladiator's Piercing Touch
Vengeful Gladiator's Grimoire
Vengeful Gladiator's Felweave Trousers
Vengeful Gladiator's Felweave Raiment
Vengeful Gladiator's Felweave Handguards
Vengeful Gladiator's Felweave Handguards
Vengeful Gladiator's Felweave Cowl
Vengeful Gladiator's Felweave Amice
Vengeful Gladiator's Dreadweave Robe
Vengeful Gladiator's Dreadweave Mantle
Vengeful Gladiator's Dreadweave Leggings
Vengeful Gladiator's Dreadweave Gloves
Vengeful Gladiator's Battle Staff
Many, many other players have had actions taken to their accounts as well and it's being actively discussed over at ArenaJunkies.com. Seems like Blizzard finally opened their eyes.





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Night Elf with S4 5 pieces and sword, Also has on vindicator gear so he doesn't look half naked:

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t103/bloodwraith816/untitled.jpg

2.4.2 Patch Notes:

WoW Forums -> 2.4.2 PTR Patch Notes (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=5974044450&sid=1)

S4 Gear is now on the PTR

WoW Forums -> ARENA SEASON 4 ON THE PTR (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=6248625639&sid=1)


With the new 2.4.2 build we have turned on Arena Season Four vendors for the PTR. You can find them in Area 52.

Please enjoy and post any bugs you encounter here in the PTR Forums.

WoWHead has the new gear listed:

Item Sets - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?itemsets&filter=ta=22#0+5+1) - Arena Gear
Items - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?items&filter=na=guardian;minle=154#0+10+1) -Honor Gear


Screenshots of warrior set and weapons courtesy of Serennia

http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/1894/s4warrioriz1.jpg

http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/3981/s4weaponsgm5.jpg

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WoW Forums -> Season 4 Requirements and Arena Changes (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=5973993258&sid=1)

What are your thoughts on how this will affect arenas in S4?

Posted by Drysc today on the PvP forums. Some interesting changes Imo. No more point/team selling. Not just any player can buy the honor gear, you have to have personals for almost every new piece of gear. No more win trading either if you look at the update at the bottom.


While Season 3 is still going strong, we wanted to announce ahead of time the rating requirements that will be present for arena items once Season 4 begins. We also wanted to give everyone a heads up to some changes that will be in an upcoming patch, altering how points are gained and players are matched in the arena system. The patch with these changes is scheduled to release before the start of Season 4.

First though, the rating requirement changes:

When Season 4 begins, Season 3 items will be reduced in personal and team arena rating requirement to:
Shoulders: 1950

Weapon: 1800

The new Season 4 items will have the below personal and team arena rating requirements:
Shoulders: 2200

Weapon: 2050

Head: 1700

Chest: 1600

Legs: 1550

Gloves: none

Off-hand: none

In addition, some of the Season 4 quality items that will be purchasable with honor will also carry a personal and team arena rating requirement:
Boots: 1700

Ring: 1650

Bracers: 1575

Belt: none

Necklace: none

Trinket: none

The Season 2 items, which will move to the honor system when Season 4 begins, will continue to have no rating requirement.

The changes to the rating requirements for these items reflect the nature of the items, their power, and the relative difficulty that should be had when attempting to obtain them. These items are comparable to those found in the newest 25 person raid zone, Sunwell Plateau, and should therefore also feel very challenging to obtain.


To help ensure that the challenge in obtaining these items stays true to those achieving these ratings, we'll also be implementing new rules with an upcoming patch to curb practices that undermine the core concepts of the arena system.

These rules are as follows:

"If a character’s personal rating is more than 150 points below the team rating, they will earn points based on their personal rating instead of the team rating."

This means that a player cannot join a highly rated team and begin earning points based purely on the pre-established rating of the team before they joined it. They'll need to compete, improve, and gain a personal rating worthy of the points they would receive.


"If the average personal rating of the players queuing for a game is more than 150 points below the team’s rating, the team will be queued against an opponent matching or similar to the average personal rating."

This means that players cannot join a highly rated team and immediately face highly rated opponents, easily and quickly bringing their personal rating up. Instead they'll need to again compete, improve, and earn their rating.


**Update**
"If a team does not enter an arena match that is starting they will lose points equal to the amount that would have been deducted if they had played and lost."

This change makes it less viable to participate in illegitimate team match-ups by requiring every game be played; not just those that are against a team's desired opponent.


We're excited to see these changes implemented, which will continue to emphasize the strong competitive nature of the arenas, and the challenge in obtaining the highest end rewards available for PvP.

kittikat
04-22-2008, 06:56 PM
muahaha, you're late :D

http://www.tankspot.com/forums/tankspot-news/36744-season-4-info.html

Ukyo
04-22-2008, 07:17 PM
SO freaking lame...


lol, not really, but it's pretty fucked up how they're putting arena ratings in everything now. Why the hell did they switch the Honor system then? =/

Kazeyonoma
04-22-2008, 09:25 PM
As elitist as this is gonna sound, this makes me happy. It's not that I don't want others getting gear, but c'mon it's gotten a little out of hand with people grabbing s3 gear to get some of the best gear for PvE. I'm not disappointed in this at all.

It makes me glad that I didn't try to hoard up 5k honor and just bought the s3 pieces as I could afford them. At least they announced it and not just wait till people had no time to spend their points.

Really though some of the ratings aren't even that bad, 1550? 1600? these aren't that bad for legs and chest really, and the gloves don't have a rating at all. that's 3/5 pieces. 1700 isn't even that hard either, so you can get 4/5 pieces and an offhand for just a week or two's worth of effort. and with those same ratings you can get All of the non-set gear too.

People need to just stop expecting great gear to fall into their laps by doing 10 games and losing every time.

Ukyo
04-23-2008, 12:08 AM
i wonder if the S4 slow offhands will also lose the personal rating req... hopefully i can get a new OH for some prot dps or something :P

veneretio
04-23-2008, 12:18 AM
SO freaking lame...


lol, not really, but it's pretty fucked up how they're putting arena ratings in everything now. Why the hell did they switch the Honor system then? =/
B/c the old system merely reflected time spent not any actual skill level whereas these items can be attainable with relatively little invested time for skilled players. It's not unlike raiding in that regard and ultimately I think we'll find that this is the preferred system for pvp loot distribution.

klor
04-23-2008, 08:27 AM
This approach is a double bladed sword. For those new players just getting into the pvp field, this change sucks. It will make it very hard for them to catch up especially since they have added a rating requirement (which is quite high might I add) to the offset pvp gear as well as to the full set of s4. I was one of those people who caught up in season 3 from 0 pvp gear and worked my way to full season 3. For those people who are starting in season 4, this will not be an option for them. They will not be able to get 3 pieces of gear that will make up for their lack of resilience due to the restrictions on honor gear.

In the same sense, I will be glad to see the changes. My battlegroup was full of people with very little skill that had full s3 due to the fact that they bought points. This will help alleviate that. Sure, many will say "Well, skill makes up for gear" but the same goes for "Gear can make the mediocre good if their opponent has very little gear" because due to resilience, gear does make a difference now adays.

The biggest downfall? Now instead of people just joining a high bracketed team, people are going to be PR leveling alot more with a new team each week, making the lower brackets even more of a pain to crawl out of. It is a step in the right direction, but Blizzard still has not fixed the problem with Season4.

Kazeyonoma
04-23-2008, 10:31 AM
but klor, they gave them PURCHASEABLE sets of pvp gear from reputation.

That amount of gear with a mild level of skill is enough to at least do bgs to get honor, with honor they can get s2 gear, with s2 gear they can already reach the resilience caps. That's all there is to it. s3 and s4 increased damage stats, and hp, but resilience didn't change. To say that they don't have a chance to catch up is entirely untrue because s2 is available with honor, and vindicators stuff is still available. This coupled with the fact that there is purchasable pvp gear makes it even easier for a person to "just step in". I stepped into s2 with no pvp gear at all and had to endear week after week of just trying our best to win in arenas, because there was no "honor" alternative to s2 gear, s1 costed arena points as well, and high warlord stuff just was silly to try to pull off. They've progressively made it easier and easier to step into the game, but harder and harder to get the best in the game, that's all. And I don't see a problem with that at all.

klor
04-23-2008, 10:32 AM
Are they keeping vindicator available? I didnt read that part.

Kazeyonoma
04-23-2008, 10:37 AM
Did they get rid of Veteran's when Vindicator's came around? Cuz I don't recall if they did or not, I thought you still could get veteran's... how else are new people getting both veteran's AND vindicator's rings?

klor
04-23-2008, 10:39 AM
The rings were the only thing they kept...bracers boots and belt were all removed. I -think- neck was too.

Kazeyonoma
04-23-2008, 10:41 AM
hrm, all the more reason to not wait till s4 before grinding some honor, gogo. =P

They've announced the change, people see it coming, I give it 4 weeks or so before s4 hits, they've got time to prepare themselves, if they don't take that chance, then they have no one to blame.

now for brand new people who aren't even 70 yet.. I feel sorry for them yes but with skill they can get most of the gear anyways, 1650 isn't that bad.

Clyde
04-23-2008, 02:28 PM
I think you are missing the biggest implication.

Right now arena is one of the most popular things in World of Warcraft. The queues are bursting with folks lining up to play. Even people that normally would not PvP join in. They may lose, but they still get rewards that make the multi-week effort worthwhile.

Put yourself, for a moment, into the mindset of someone that mostly does PvE but started PvPing for gear a season ago. They are not very good, but they hold their own against other folks at the same rating. They have managed to acquire several S3 pieces, the S2 shoulders, and have some points saved up for S4. This has taken all season, since they 2v2 and hover around 1400.

Rules change. Now the only piece they have a chance to buy is the S4 gloves. Do you think they'll continue to play? Why, exactly, would they choose to accumulate unspendable arena points?

It's easy to proclaim "it's not hard to get to 1700" but that simply must be false. We all start at 1500, and for every bump up in rating, someone bumps down. Half the player base is at 1500 or below.

Picture this. What if the majority of the player base that is currently rated at 1500 or below concludes that the effort of arena is no longer worth the time they put in? If the "scrubs" choose to not enter, who will you be running across when S4 starts?

I suspect that folks who are used to seeing themselves at 1950 might well find themselves at 1600 instead.

Kazeyonoma
04-23-2008, 03:07 PM
Although I agree with your points and that they are very valid Clyde, I think that this is exactly how it should be. People who are skilled and geared will push past the 1600s. People who are at 1950 now and can't make it past 1600 later? Just proves the fact that they were riding the coattails of people who sucked. That doesn't make sense. You earn your gear in PvE by downing bosses. Likewise in PvP you gotta earn your gear by at least winning enough to get a decent rating. Like you said, the hypothetical scenario player has acquired several s3 pieces, this is enough gear for him/her to play competitively in his/her bracket, If they can't break out of it, they have no one to blame, having s4 welfare handed to them due to no restrictions won't suddenly show them getting out of the 1400s. because all the other 1400s their stuck with now, will be doing the same thing.

I think the ultimate implication of this is that, the good will stay good, the terrible will stay terrible, and the lucky high rated teams will find it tougher to get the good gear.

Hypatia
04-23-2008, 11:55 PM
Kazeyonoma: That misses the point of what Clyded was saying about the way rating systems work.

50% of all people who are playing in the arena will have a rating less than 1500—that's because that's how the rating system is defined. If all of the people who currently carry ratings less than 1500 stop playing in arenas, that means that half of the people currently over 1500 will end up below 1500.

If everybody who's currently below 1600 were to stop playing because they're not interested in arena when they only have three possible S4 items they can get, that means that people who currently have 1600 will end up with the lowest rankings, significantly below 1500.

In short: If the terrible stop playing because they're not interested in losing frequently and being unable to get loot, then the whole curve changes.

That doesn't seem unlikely when the very definition of the system means that 50% of the people who participate will never have access to more than two pieces of gear. (And not the world's most exciting pieces, either.)

Dweebfire
04-24-2008, 02:41 AM
I agree the top teams should be rewarded, but does it make any sense that the reward is they are provided better gear? Its like winning the UFC championship and then being rewarded brass knuckles to wear while defending your crown.

The arena system is completely ridiculous. All the top teams claim that its all "skill" and gear has very little to do with it. Its funny how some of those "top teams" aren't doing so well in the WoW Arena Tournament because everyone is geared the same.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that it is all about gear. The point I am trying to make is that arena competition should be on a more even playing field so that skill is a larger factor. Right now, skill has less to do with arenas than class composition and gear. Really, honestly... does that make sense?

Its ridiculously hard enough for a newly leveled 70 to grind his PVP gear up, especially when he's earning 250-350 arena points per week. Now, we're going to limit the gear these players can get by requiring team ratings. This makes no sense considering the fact that he needs to obtain that gear to be competitive in the upper brackets. WTF?

Okay...so I've ground my way up to 1700 rating in s4 and have a few pieces of s4 gear. But I still am at least 2 seasons behind in weapons and a season behind in honor gear... and I have to battle my way up against teams that under this system, will have gear that I am not yet entitled to?

C'mon guys... the only people applauding this change are those that are already fully geared and chomping at the bit for s4 with 5000 points banked. And its solely because they know that this system will allow them to stay on top and make it more difficult for any challengers.

Call me a crybaby... flame the hell out of me. Whatever. I'll pound out a 1700+ rating and grab my pieces of s4 gear and continue to play casually. Makes little difference to me. But I honestly feel that this system will do nothing more than making the arena ladders even more lopsided than they already are.

Arrivan
04-24-2008, 04:05 AM
In short, I think this is over the top. In particular the honour-bought bracers/belt/boots requiring an arena rating: WTF? Unless it can be bought with arena points, it should not have an arena rating requirement on it. My solution would be to make them arena purchased (and slightly reduce the total cost of the other 5 pieces of the set to make up for the extra items required) while keeping the previous season's gear on the honour vendor. As it is planned to be now, they'll be necessitating arena participation in order to use battleground gear. What else is going to require an arena rating in the future?

Edit: I'll be interested to see how the level 80 PVP gear is handled. If they start out with all the rating requirements and don't have the same "arena intro" like they have now (rep gear -> BG for S1 -> arena for S3) then in theory 1500 bracket champions won't get any more than gloves until at least S6 (if S5 is the first level 80 season).

If it was up to me, I'd arrange it so that you get your rep set for a mixture of honoured and revered reputation (let's face it, honoured is too easy for some factions; my level 66 rogue has had two heroic keys and access to two PVP pieces the minute she hits 70 since level 63), which prepares you for the BGs where you get better-than-rep-gear-but-not-as-good-as-level-80-S1 gear, which gears you up for level 80 S1 gear.

Hypatia
04-24-2008, 06:20 AM
On reflection, I kind of see what Blizz is trying to do here: They're trying to make it so that there's a pseudo-progression distribution to the various items. That is, that only the best of the best have S4 quality gear. That some S3 items only go to the best of the best, and so on.

Seen in that light (that they expect people to have a mix of gear from various seasons, as people would have a mix from various tiers of raiding, up to the point where they're currently raiding), it makes a sort of sense.

But I'm still not sure it's going to work the way they want it to work. I guess we'll see. :) (Personally, I stopped doing arena quite a while back because I just don't have the time for it, and when you don't spend much time on arena it's extra painful—so, this doesn't impact me much at all.)

Ceravantes
04-24-2008, 07:45 AM
Personal ratings like this are creating the exact same problems that made PvP gear a necessity in the first place, Gear and class comp should not have as much of an effect on PvP as it does.

I don't mind losing to a team that is better than me, or because myself or my partner made a mistake, But losing because the opposing team has a team makeup, taht beause of class balance is nearly unbeatable is what I have a problem with.

Kazeyonoma
04-24-2008, 09:55 AM
That is a problem Centx, but that's more about class balance, and not necessarily arenas themselves.

And That's what I'm saying Hypatia, its a progression through gear.

And I know clyde was talking about people just "up and quitting" arenas, but I don't see it happening. I just don't. Arena is and always will be tough for those who don't know how to PvP, that doesn't change, if people don't wanna do it anymore because they can't get handed free epics, I don't think this will be the 1500 teams quitting, its the teams that live in the 1200-1300 brackets that just lose to get gear.

Those will be the quitters, the 1500s and 1600s are the people who are fighting to be more, and they are the ones, that the top players have to beat to get to the 1800s+ What do I care if some 1200 team doesn't queue up anymore, if I needed them to queue up to get to 2k, I don't want to arena anymore either.

Clyde
04-24-2008, 10:30 AM
But you do need them. You need the wins against people that beat them. If they are not there, who will provide those losses?

Remember, 1500 is the median score of all that participate. If we make a hypothetical new arena where you had to have 1800 the previous season to participate, someone who used to have an 1800 will have a 1200 in the new setting.

Will people quit? Yes, yes they will... I'll be shocked if they don't. You don't think so? Remember, people react to incentives. Notice how popular the battleground of the holiday weekend is, compared to the others.

Telling people they can bank arena points but cannot spend them is what I call a "dis-incentive" plan. Half the players this season will look at that 1550 or 1650 rating requirement and mark those pieces off their list. They will look at how many points are needed to get the gloves, get that number of points, and drop out. Why would they stay? For the joy of losing?

I'm one of those people. The hypothetical person I outlined above is my wife. I have S2 shoulders, S3 gloves and pants. I'm saving to replace my Horseman's Helm and S1 chest with S4. But now I know that I can't have either. So instead I'll just get what I need to pick up S3 head and chest, and call it quits. That takes 3240 points... I'll have that banked next week. And next season, instead of spending gold respeccing twice a week and the time in the arena, I'll grind badge loot.

I'm not bitter, I'm only a bit upset, but I have a choice of how to spend my in game time. I can get rewards, or I can not get rewards. Which do you think I'll choose?

Kazeyonoma
04-24-2008, 10:32 AM
I agree, you're right Clyde, but this is a step towards keeping the welfare off the unworthy.

Clyde
04-24-2008, 11:08 AM
I agree, you're right Clyde, but this is a step towards keeping the welfare off the unworthy.

Whatever. For me, my interest in what's good and bad in arena went from "something I do every week" down to "right up there with the Cricket scores in Pakistan."

edit: OK, that was a bit bitter.

Bloodwraith
04-24-2008, 02:58 PM
I love the debate going on here. wtb more ideas on the subject.

Crimsonstorm
04-24-2008, 03:24 PM
What do I care if some 1200 team doesn't queue up anymore, if I needed them to queue up to get to 2k, I don't want to arena anymore either.

If the 1200 team quits then the 1300 team doesnt have someone to beat on so theyfall to 1200. The 1400 team falls to 1300, etc etc. And that 2k is harder to reach.


This is not PvE, where if a gruul guild quits, its harder for you to beat bosses in BT.
Its a ranking system where 50% of the arena players are over 1500, some %age are over 1700, some %age are over 2k...

The more terrible players there are filling those lower ranks, the easier it is to get above them. If the terrible players all quit, now the ok players are the worst people playing and get sub-1500 ratings, the good players can only beat the ok players and are 1600, etc. It lowers the entire rating curve.

Rating is based on how good you are RELATIVE to the competition. Not relative to some fixed level like in PvE. If they limit items to 1700+ theyre limiting them to like 25% of the playerbase.

Lets say youre better than 25% of arena players and worse than 75%. You get a 1700ish rating.

*
*
You
*
*
*
*
*
*
*

Now the worse half of the player base all quit because they cant get items anymore.

*
*
You
*
*

Suddenly youre right in the middle of the playerbase, with a 1500 rating! Because youre better than half the poeple and worse than half. And now YOU cant get gear either...

Gwayne
04-24-2008, 04:46 PM
There's no reason to assume that the low-ranked players will just leave the arena fields, just because they can't get all of the s4 items... Most of them are willing to do 10 losses/week for getting some items... if not s4, then they get some s3 items. This won't be the end of the world.

This will make the s4 items a bit more exclusive, which I think is good. It's just crazy how easy you can get high epic pvp items for minimal effort! And this is from someone who hasn't even been over 1500 rating for real :-) I've been abusing the system like most of us have.
It will still be worth it to do the 10 losses for most of my characters... No reason to quit just because the new s4 got higher requirements; still enough to gain from losing 10 times.

Kazeyonoma
04-25-2008, 01:40 AM
exactly gwayne, and I understand crimson, but I think until we see the results of the change, we can't assume that this HUGE migration of plaeyrs will occur.

Clyde
04-25-2008, 07:56 AM
There's no reason to assume that the low-ranked players will just leave the arena fields, just because they can't get all of the s4 items...

Except, of course, that we've been in a long Season 3. Many of them already have 2 or 3 pieces of S3, and are holding points for S4 upgrades. Now they'll fill out their S3 at 85% cost.

This week I now have enough points to complete my S3 set. By the time S4 starts I could have points for the S4 gloves. If I spend all of those on day one, what incentive is there for me to play in Season 4?

As a point of reference, I came into arena at the tail end of S2 for the express purpose of picking up the S2 shield and stopping. The wife and I found that we enjoyed it, it fit our schedule, and it gave us some nice upgrades. Picked up our S2 gloves and banked points for S3. We've been in every week since, getting our 250 - 350 points, picking up a piece or two, but mostly trying to be smart and hold off for S4. If all of that armor was available, we'd continue, that was our plan. But now we can just accumulate points, and not have anything to buy.

From what I'm hearing from others, this is not an uncommon situation. I enjoy the arenas enough to participate, but not so much that I just want to pump other people's rating up so they can get gear I'm restricted from.

Gwayne
04-25-2008, 08:54 AM
There is still a constant stream of new lvl70 characters coming in every day, starting with NO pvp gear and NO arena points.
Apart from that, there are still enough casual pvp players who by now still only have a few s2/s3 items. Of course some ppl buy a new team every week, but many use a team for several weeks and you won't get that many arena points by hanging in the low 1300 region in a 2v2, assuming they even play ever week. Especially with the waiting queue times before last patch, playing arena wasn't that much fun and pretty time intensive if you forget to play early in the week...

I consider myself a casual pvper. I mostly do raids/instances.
My main rogue has 2 s3 items, 1 s1 item and 3 s2 weapons (which are nice for pve too, so I spent on those first).
My 2nd char (warrior) came to 70 a month or two ago. I bought s1 shield for honor and later bought s2 shield for arena points. I have some arena points left, but less than 1k...
My 3rd char will reach 70 soon. Priest. No points yet, so still enough arena losing to do.

I know there are many ppl like me, out there.

Don't worry about huge changes in the arena field. I doubt we'll see any real difference, except that it will be much harder to buy the s4 items. You'll actually have to be dedicated to pvp for it, so this will only really affect the higher ranked (1500+) teams.

Of course, I may be proven completely wrong when s4 hits... ;-)

proplop
04-25-2008, 10:53 AM
As far as i can see the change is a lot more unbeneficial to Melee DPS than to casters/healers as for melee a weapon is the single most important upgrade in my opinion. I myself celebrate the change in ratings. I have more than one lvl 70 char (i pvp with my warrior and my resto shaman).
The rating requirement in S3 for the weapon was a real goal for me my team mates and each week was great (or a great pain when we got smashed by r/m/p teams :P) as we inched closer to that 1850 rating and the joy when we reached in in 3's bracket was tremendous (sounded like a boss kill on vent lol :D), as I and my retri paladin both wen't to buy our weapons.

Now imagine you're in a lower rating. In stead of pointlessly playing 10 games a week you'll have to work towards a rating goal to aquire that gear that you really want, and have a real sence of achievement when you reach it.

The new 2050 weapon rating seems steep to me, but it will give me something to work and i'm sure i'll feel proud when I'm finally wielding it.

Clyde
04-25-2008, 01:18 PM
I suppose that's one way to look at it... as a goal. However, unlike other goals in the game, for one person to be able to achieve it, one other must not be able to. In the case of things with a high rating, like the weapon, for one person to be able to achieve it, many others must not be able to. This isn't a theory, it's a definition.

You can make the weapons "distinctive" or "only going to those worthy." But the other way to describe that is "exclusive" and "unavailable to most."

Like I said, for me, it means a re-allocation of my time. I get to play about 2 - 3 hours a night, 3 - 5 nights a week. Participation in the arena is for me a fairly serious commitment of my in game time, between 15 and 30 percent depending on my business travel for the week. I can continue to play in here, or I can re-allocate and head into another heroic every week. On the one hand, I can get arena points I can't spend unless I improve quite a bit. On the other, I can get badges of justice that I can use to upgrade my gear for certain.

The real question is how many people have been willing to participate because of certain rewards despite probable poor showings. Arena right now is one of the most popular things in the game. How many of those players are casual?

Painapple
04-25-2008, 06:19 PM
Personally I don't think we'll see people fleeing the arena, if some leave during season 4 they'll return to season 5 when the s4 items are available.

and then it's back to normal, only the current season items will be hard to get and available to tier 1 players. the rest wait one season, looks good to me.

Finelle
04-26-2008, 07:56 AM
The rewards vs effort thing is very apparent. Remember how Blizzard panicked and buffed all the raid items because the tiny step up for raid epics wasn't worth the time and effort wiping for them?

Karza
04-28-2008, 10:39 PM
It's kind of funny in that, for those who were around early enough, drop two zeros from the end of the numbers, start it a zero instead of 14 and change "Personal Rating" to "Rank" and you get a sense of deja-vu. :p

Seriously though, and this is just my opinion, I think this change was made to drive the majority of the Arena player base off the regular servers and onto the Tournament Servers. (While shelling out an extra $20 for that nice revenue bump.)

If you look at it at face value, the Arena was an idea snatched from Guild Wars as an element to add competitive ladder based PvP without dealing with population issues. However, unlike Guild Wars, the game wasn't developed and balanced around this type of PvP environment. It was balanced around PvE and raids with the concept of "Specs" and "Gear Requirements" as rewards. As a consequence, the current goal in WoW is to just try and give each class 1 viable spec for Arena. Not that spec, sorry, Arena isn't for you.

In Guild Wars the system allows complete flexibility to change your toon's abilities and gear, even between fights if you choose and the gear you PvE is roughly the same gear you PvP. Gear is not the reward but the Guild's rank, global competition and the to be number one. That is a system that fits with Arenas and it was no surprise to me that Blizzard, once again, copied that system for the Tournament realms. It would not surprise me in the slightest if S4 was the last Arena season on the "normal" realms and, with WotLK or a free patch soon after, they will move it completely onto the Tournament Realms for their eSport and make PvP on normal servers more world/BG based.

That's just my opinion though and respect those who disagree.

Karza
04-28-2008, 11:31 PM
The real question is how many people have been willing to participate because of certain rewards despite probable poor showings. Arena right now is one of the most popular things in the game. How many of those players are casual?

I'd say roughly 65-75%. I'm just like you, I have 3-5 hours 3-5 days a week depending on work and quit WoW just before Naxx was released because the game was nothing but a time grind where I was forced to play with specs and not friends. I came back because they addressed most of those changes and I could acquire gear via PvP with my friends which I like. My friends and I are not an "optimal" group, one is a Shadow Priest for example, but we have fun and get a nice gear item every 4 weeks. We're getting better but know the wall is fast approaching. After S4 we have all agreed that we will give up Arenas and, more than likely, give up WoW as well. They are going in the wrong direction for us.

Ukyo
04-29-2008, 06:05 AM
The thing is that Arenas is still a time grind for gear. The more time you spend in the arenas, the better you start to react to teams and you start winning faster. It's pretty much the same with the old Honor System, only instead of pushing everyone down on the higher ranks, you can keep rising until you get what you want and so everyone else.

I for one gonna keep doing arenas casually, only this time i might have to take it seriously, no more "aw, ok, we'll get it next time" or "don't worry, shit happens", and find capable people to do arenas with. So much for enjoying rated pvp =P

Kazeyonoma
04-29-2008, 09:28 AM
See, I play only maybe 3-4 hours a week in arenas, but I consider myself competitive, I push for 2k, I read my strategies, and I pick Competitive team makeups. Time isn't the only concern here. It's about skill, research, group composition, and making the best with what you got. Anyone arguing that people are gonna be swimming in s4 while others are gimped are full of it, s3 is plenty good to make due with, and if you've got the skill, you'll push past your ranks. If "rated pvp" is so easily done for you guys I gotta transfer servers, cuz every match is a nitty-gritty deathmatch for me but winning each one provides a satisfaction similar to a progression kill.

Karza
04-29-2008, 11:49 AM
See, I play only maybe 3-4 hours a week in arenas, but I consider myself competitive, I push for 2k, I read my strategies, and I pick Competitive team makeups. Time isn't the only concern here. It's about skill, research, group composition, and making the best with what you got.

So basically, the only difference between you and I is, in my opinion, dedication to group composition. I make a choice to play with friends and their main toons because I've been playing MMOs with these people for years. I don't want to pick random people because the system demands that a Warrior, Priest, Mage combo isn't as good as a Warrior, Pally, Shaman or some other combo. For me, it would be better to play with my friends on a Tournament realm where your character, race and spec are all disposable and we can play with any combo we want vs trying to level up 2-3 different characters/builds each as Blizzard plays the balance game.

Now, the fundamental question, are the Arenas made up of more people like me or more people like you? If it's made up of more people like me, which in my opinion it is but respect folks that disagree with me, then I think most people are going to move away from Areans on normal servers with this system and go to the Tournament Realm for Arena competition, just PvE and PvP on the side or move to a game with a better focus on balanced PvP. If it's made up of more people willing to play with anyone for the optimal spec, there probably won't be much of a change as, I agree with you, the S3 gear will keep you competitive "enough" to keep progressing if the skill is there.

Kazeyonoma
04-29-2008, 02:05 PM
I play with my friends too though. They chose to level up new chars that fit arena specs better. My 5v5 team is made up of a buncha alts, but I just need 1 team to be competitive to get the gear, the rest can be for fun. Is this not doable for you as well? I hate to sound elitist but you guys are making it out like this stuff is suddenly impossible for you to attain. When in fact, you all have the opportunity to get it. And its easier to get than say raid epics where it requires an entire team of 25 to down bosses. But no one complains about weekly guaranteed rewards from raids.

ebs2002
04-29-2008, 03:58 PM
I'm a somewhat competitive arena player. I take my arena matches seriously, as does everyone else on my team, but we play classes we like and try to make it work; sometimes it's war/rog/dru, sometimes it's war/hnt/hnt, sometimes it's war/dru/dru. On 5's, we have 10 people on our team and we make sure everyone who's online gets their 30% in.

So, we take our matches seriously, but we will never be as competitive as some of the other teams who study class matchups and have the option of min/maxing their team makeup. We've hovered in the 1500-1600 range most of the time.

I can honestly say that I don't see a lot of my team members wanting to participate under our conditions. If we want to play, we're going to be forced to get a competitive team makeup, and that means that our hunter and mage friends are pretty much SOL; they need to make a new character that they enjoy and level them up to 70, then go through the honor grind just to get competitive again.

There aren't many incentives for teams like us in S4. We can get the S3 set minus shoulders/weapon (most of us have at least half of it already), and we can get maybe the sub-1600 rated items.

I'm not complaining that we won't be able to arena, I'm just saying that I can definitely foresee Blizzard needing to constantly be readjusting the required ratings to make some of this gear attainable, because I do agree 100% that there will be less people participating every week, which means that all of these rating requirements will be THAT much harder to attain. You may be proud of hitting 1850 in S3, but you're going to be struggling to hit it in S4. And as people get frustrated and stop playing, it will make it that much more difficult for everyone else, and it will snowball until getting shoulders will be as difficult as getting HWL was in 1.x

But maybe that's what Blizzard wants, after all...

Bloodwraith
04-29-2008, 06:35 PM
It's kind of funny in that, for those who were around early enough, drop two zeros from the end of the numbers, start it a zero instead of 14 and change "Personal Rating" to "Rank" and you get a sense of deja-vu. :p

Seriously though, and this is just my opinion, I think this change was made to drive the majority of the Arena player base off the regular servers and onto the Tournament Servers. (While shelling out an extra $20 for that nice revenue bump.)

If you look at it at face value, the Arena was an idea snatched from Guild Wars as an element to add competitive ladder based PvP without dealing with population issues. However, unlike Guild Wars, the game wasn't developed and balanced around this type of PvP environment. It was balanced around PvE and raids with the concept of "Specs" and "Gear Requirements" as rewards. As a consequence, the current goal in WoW is to just try and give each class 1 viable spec for Arena. Not that spec, sorry, Arena isn't for you.

In Guild Wars the system allows complete flexibility to change your toon's abilities and gear, even between fights if you choose and the gear you PvE is roughly the same gear you PvP. Gear is not the reward but the Guild's rank, global competition and the to be number one. That is a system that fits with Arenas and it was no surprise to me that Blizzard, once again, copied that system for the Tournament realms. It would not surprise me in the slightest if S4 was the last Arena season on the "normal" realms and, with WotLK or a free patch soon after, they will move it completely onto the Tournament Realms for their eSport and make PvP on normal servers more world/BG based.

That's just my opinion though and respect those who disagree.


The part about the TTR becoming the only arena realms is a very interesting idea. I never thought about that but now that I do I see where you got that idea from.

Karza
04-30-2008, 09:18 AM
I play with my friends too though. They chose to level up new chars that fit arena specs better. My 5v5 team is made up of a buncha alts, but I just need 1 team to be competitive to get the gear, the rest can be for fun. Is this not doable for you as well? I hate to sound elitist but you guys are making it out like this stuff is suddenly impossible for you to attain. When in fact, you all have the opportunity to get it. And its easier to get than say raid epics where it requires an entire team of 25 to down bosses. But no one complains about weekly guaranteed rewards from raids.

I disagree that the discussion disputes that the opportunity is not there. On the contrary, I would say everyone recognizes the opportunity but the discussion is revolving around the cost of that opportunity for a majority of the player base. You have correctly pointed out that if you want to play with friends and be "realistically" competitive in Arena on normal servers the basic option available is one, some or all friends leveling up alts for the optimal group/spec at your chosen 2v2, 3v3 or 5v5 arena size. This includes:

Leveling from 1-70 (Depending on your alts)
Leveling out Faction (Shoulders and Head)
(Potentially)Leveling out Skill (BS, Enchanting, etc)
Grinding our Honor for PvP Gear

Obviously there is some crossover and not everyone would have to do an alt but, assuming no alts at the moment, it has taken me about 4 months to go from 60 to 70, grind out faction, finish off honor gear and get 1 S3 item. Now, I can do that OR, shell out $20 and play on a Tournament Realm and experience all the fun of competitive Arena PvP, easily adapt to the ever changing arena balance sans the above and item rewards. The question comes down to, is it about "The Sword" or the competition? For me, honor PvP gear is good enough for solo PvE/Dailys, random Heroics and BG PvP. If I want my competitive Arena fix I'll go to the Tournament realm. (I use the term "I" loosely here because I'm so annoyed (read cheap :D ) I have to pay $20 for the Tournament server ON TOP OF my monthly fee I'd rather quit WoW and play a game where PvP is not the red-headed step child.)

If Arena PvP is about both the gear and the compeition, I can see where folks will invest time going the other route.

Kazeyonoma
04-30-2008, 10:44 AM
I think the point of my post was to address that I do indeed play with my friends. and they did the leveling of their own free will, i never asked them or demanded them to do so. They did it because they wanted to be competitive.

The larger point of my post is that I play my fun/goofy/friend games in my 5v5s. I help alts get their gear, and i have my fun with friends. My 2v2 happens to be the druid who rerolled from his rogue (who he also pvp's with on another team) who was a good friend of mine for many years. My 3s is the only team where I grab anyone and anything that wants to play and try to be competitive. I just grabbed a random enh shaman and resto druid and we went 14-2. The shaman and druid are decently geared in s2/s3 gear, but I'm the only one with s3 weapons and we're tearing it up. We've never even been on vent together. This is where the skill and understanding of our class came into play. The shaman does amazing things and had nothing to do with our makeup or our gear being way better than others.

I guess we'll wait and see what happens, All I'm saying is that this seems like a mountain out of a molehill. Build up gear, and start playing well, you'll see that 1575, 1650, 1700 aren't as tough as you think. If a double elemental shaman team can get to 1750 and rape my 1900 druid/warrior team, I'm sure a lot of casual players can figure out what they need to at least break 1700.

Boozefighter
05-01-2008, 03:57 AM
In both PvE and PvP, the persons who are the most successful, and reap the greatest rewards, are those who are dedicated to their cause via spec, gear, and execution. The belief that it is unreasonable to ask someone to conform to certain standards and models, is foolhardy. That being said, I agree it is our $15 a month, but what I don't agree with is the attitude that my $15 allows me to whatever I want, however I want to, and reap the same benefit as someone who put forth the effort into being good in the first place. As Kaz mentioned earlier, research, comp makeup, player skill, etc are the things that will set an arena team apart. Can an unconventioal team work? Absolutely. However, the team in question shouldn't be put off by the fact a "cookie cutter" team waxes them. The math doesn't work out in your favor, skill removed. This parallels real life, I would prefer to do what I want to all day and still live my current lifestyle, however being a bum doesn't feed me or my family, so I have to work. Ergo, if I want arena loot, I have to spec and comp to win. Having the T6+ quality items have a relatively low arena requirement is not unreasonable. This coming from someone who has never broken 1700.

Karza
05-01-2008, 12:54 PM
Just so folks are clear, I completely agree with that line of thinking as well and, to be honest, I haven't read anywhere in this thread that anyone really disputes that. I don't expect anything. I don't think any individual is forcing friends to do things. The discussion is more revolving around, to succeed in this system one must do the following and the impacts of that on playing time vs. reward. The S4 Arena system (potentially for some) demands a much higher investment in effort to achieve the same goals as the current S3 system. That is neither good nor bad, it simply is and individuals must determine for themselves the impacts on how they are currently playing the game.

For me and my friends given our current group composition, it isn't realistic to try and achieve success in the S4 system so something will need to change. We're deciding if that change means going to a new game or the Tournament Realm. Either way, we probably won't play Arena on our BG. In my opinion, I think a majority of players will go that route as well given this new system. (I respect that folks may disagree.) Once again, those actions are neither good nor bad, they just are and it will be for Blizzard and the people who want to play Arenas to decide how it impacts the game and themselves.

Bloodwraith
05-01-2008, 01:00 PM
2.4.2 Patch Notes:

WoW Forums -> 2.4.2 PTR Patch Notes (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=5974044450&sid=1)

S4 Gear is now on the PTR

WoW Forums -> ARENA SEASON 4 ON THE PTR (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=6248625639&sid=1)



WoWHead has the new gear listed:

Item Sets - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?itemsets&filter=ta=22#0+5+1) - Arena Gear
Items - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?items&filter=na=guardian;minle=154#0+10+1) -Honor Gear


Screenshots of warrior set and weapons courtesy of Serennia

http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/1894/s4warrioriz1.jpg

http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/3981/s4weaponsgm5.jpg



Added S4 Gear Screenshots and Links. Also added a link to the 2.4.2 Patch Notes.

ebs2002
05-01-2008, 02:36 PM
I would just like to add now that in no way was I saying I want to be able to feed my family, as you say, in my current situation (lots of hunters, few healers). I'm saying that there are a lot of casual arena players who will have no reason to play anymore, since there are no pieces that require a 1500 rating, or a 1400 rating, to purchase (and since you need arena points to purchase these, you can't go from 0pts and go 0-10 and be able to purchase these).

When there is no way to spend your points without significantly changing how you're playing (having someone level and outfit a healer), then those people aren't going to play in the arena. And that was the point of my (and others) post: when the low-rated people stop playing, the high rated people's rating shifts.

Instead of looking at the ratings needed as numbers, think of them as percentages. Anyone can get gloves. You need to be in the top 45% to get legs. Top 40% for chest. Top 35% for head. Less than half of the people who participate in arena will get more than the gloves. That's not a good incentive to play.

Kazeyonoma
05-01-2008, 04:01 PM
My understanding was that only 2-3 of each piece was requiring ratings and that 1-2 of each set (off-set and the set pieces) would not require ratings, did something change?

Clyde
05-02-2008, 07:54 AM
My understanding was that only 2-3 of each piece was requiring ratings and that 1-2 of each set (off-set and the set pieces) would not require ratings, did something change?

Of the "main" bits, the pieces people care about, 1/5 armor pieces have no rating requirement. The other 4/5 require a rating above 1500, some all the way up to 2200, so less than half of the player base can get them, by definition.

On weapons, off-hand weapons have no requirement. Two-handers, main hands, and shields all require a 2050, which means you need to be in the top 10% or so (more or less) of everyone that plays. 90% will not get it.

For the "honor" pieces, 2 of the 3 pieces of armor have a requirement. So does the ring. Again, only the top half of those that play arena can have them.

End result? If you are in the bottom 55% of players, after you have spent 1125 arena points for the gloves, you are done. Any additional points you get you can only bank. Oh, I guess you could save up to 5,000 points to pick up the S4 stuff once S5 shows up.... by which time WotLK will be out and it will already be surpassed by quest greens.

ebs2002
05-02-2008, 11:07 AM
The throwing weapon, as far as I have heard, has no rating requirement (as does the axe for hunters), but it's really such a marginal upgrade that it's not worth it. 6sta 2crit 6ap upgrade from S2, and only 3sta 1crit 4ap from S3.

For rogues, they had a nice top-end damage boost from S2 to S3, but only 10dmg increase from S3 to S4, so again, it's not really worth grinding arena for 3 weeks for such a marginal increase.

Kazeyonoma
05-02-2008, 02:36 PM
People move up and down in ratings all the time too, you're speaking about this from a static immovable scope in which the guys who are 1575 now and buy their 1st rated piece, will never go down and only go up, and that's simply not the case. I hit 1850, bought my weapon, and dropped to 1650 the next week. Does that mean that I knocked out over 45% of the arena population by doing that? no, the week I got my weapon maybe, but the next week, someone ELSE got it in my place.

Clyde
05-02-2008, 06:23 PM
Well, that's a pretty valid point, K. Still, the real question I'm posing isn't "what does someone with an 1850 think" but "what does someone with a 1350 or a 1400 think." I think I'm pretty solidly middle-of-the-road, usually within 50 - 75 points of 1500 either way. I'd say I'm 50th percentile in my battlegroup. I've never cleared 1650, though I've (once) been close at 1642. And I might well improve... when I started arena, we had done no PvP at all in over a year, and began with a plunge down to 1200 or so.

Mind you, I got in to buy the shield for PvE... and I'd probably not do that at all in the current environment. I was a bit surprised to find how much I enjoyed it.

Again, I'm not really trying to say that it's good or bad... just that I think it will discourage people who currently are in the bottom half from sticking with it. If enough of the bottom half decide it's pointless, then it will impact the ratings of everyone else.

Now, you might find it more fun that way. If you find yourself floating around 1680 instead of 1900, you might really find collecting 4/5 bits very fun, and very worthwhile, even if you never get the weapon or the shoulders. I do think that reducing point selling and rating abuse is very positive. At least they will have some associated bragging rights.

Bloodwraith
05-02-2008, 07:26 PM
Well, that's a pretty valid point, K. Still, the real question I'm posing isn't "what does someone with an 1850 think" but "what does someone with a 1350 or a 1400 think." I think I'm pretty solidly middle-of-the-road, usually within 50 - 75 points of 1500 either way. I'd say I'm 50th percentile in my battlegroup. I've never cleared 1650, though I've (once) been close at 1642. And I might well improve... when I started arena, we had done no PvP at all in over a year, and began with a plunge down to 1200 or so.

Mind you, I got in to buy the shield for PvE... and I'd probably not do that at all in the current environment. I was a bit surprised to find how much I enjoyed it.

Again, I'm not really trying to say that it's good or bad... just that I think it will discourage people who currently are in the bottom half from sticking with it. If enough of the bottom half decide it's pointless, then it will impact the ratings of everyone else.

Now, you might find it more fun that way. If you find yourself floating around 1680 instead of 1900, you might really find collecting 4/5 bits very fun, and very worthwhile, even if you never get the weapon or the shoulders. I do think that reducing point selling and rating abuse is very positive. At least they will have some associated bragging rights.

I think the people that are still in the gearing process for PvP, but plan to PvP during their play time will still do arenas and whatever rating they can't achieve they will get S3 gear or S2 gear depending on the peice, and grab vindicator's instead of new honor pieces. This is already occurring on a smaller scale in-game with people grabbing S2 for the shoulders and weapon they they cannot get themselves. If they hope to play arena and go somewhere they will gear up in this fashion using the idea of "The more gear I get the better I'll be" and they will keep working on ways to improve themselves to strive for those ratings.

The highest I've ever got was 1780 and I myself strive for 1850, working on whatever I think could get me a bit closer. I recently found a druid for 2v2 and I'm trying to learn the set-up and get used to it, so I can get my vengeful sword before end of season. I'm also trying to run my 5's we will be running warrior/pally/priest/hunter/lock and I think with that make-up the the players skill we could hit the rating if we could ever arrange a good time to play =P

Bloodwraith
05-10-2008, 08:49 AM
I added a pic of a Night elf from PTR with Full S4 gear and the sword wearing vindicator's gear so he doesn't look naked.

Ukyo
05-10-2008, 11:25 PM
Lol the axe looks like a freaking paddle xD!

Bloodwraith
05-11-2008, 07:52 AM
Lol the axe looks like a freaking paddle xD!

yeah when I saw that I lol'd irl =P

robowarriorx
05-11-2008, 07:46 PM
There may be no point in mentioning this, but does anyone remember High Warlord? Or the shear amount of pvp dedication it took to reach HW? In a way, it almost seems as though this is a nod back to the old days when we had, what, 13 ranks was it? And you HAD to play all the time, or you lost your rank, an actually lost points? Back then, when you saw the dude in the HW or the Alliance equivalent (GM? I don't know really), you KNEW that dude was serious, that dude knew his class, and that dude would rip you a new one. Now, just because you see someone in s3, you don't immediately know if he's good or bad, you just know he put his time in, especially if he still has his s2 shoulders. At least by going this route, the players who ARE of a higher caliber will have something to show for it, you will know them on sight as being a better skilled player, and they put in the same amount of time and effort that most of the raiders are also putting in. And, speaking for myself, my personal rank is pretty low, though I have also had the misfortune of teaming up with people who hated pvp, but wanted to do it for fun. They were my friends, and I'm glad we had a good time, but I am eager to get back in there with players who do have the pvp experience, and want to do more than just get a free "epix" handout. I know there are more like me, people who enjoy the competition and want to actually excel at one point in the game, especially those who's guilds aren't progressing, or who are on a low pop server but still want to gear up to at least plow through heroics and some of the ten mans. I apologize for going a bit off topic, but in a way I feel this is nostalgic, and it makes me want to improve my game, not just for the gear, but I guess for the knowledge that I didn't just sit around for a handout. Every piece of s4 I am able to get will be like a slap in the face to those people who say all pvper's just want handouts and have no skill.

Ukyo
05-11-2008, 08:48 PM
S4 should balance that, if you see someone with S4 shoulders or the weapon, you know they're serious. You can still beat them, but at least you know they have a compromise with pvp, and they take it seriously.

Not so much atm, in my server there's a lot of point selling and rating selling, with a lot of win trading. You can't notice when a player has real skills with the gear they're using. Back in the day, you knew that guy was serious. Yeah, you could eventually reach HWL, if the dude in rank 14 after gearing up, stopped pvp'ing as often as he did, but sometimes you didn't went for the gear, you went for the title. Now, everyone can get their hands on a Gladiator title, anyone can get to 1850 and get weapons and full S3 gear... all for what, 20 to 30 games a week?

Hopefully, S4 can change this... though i don't think so

Clyde
05-11-2008, 08:55 PM
There may be no point in mentioning this, but does anyone remember High Warlord? Or the shear amount of pvp dedication it took to reach HW? In a way, it almost seems as though this is a nod back to the old days when we had, what, 13 ranks was it? And you HAD to play all the time, or you lost your rank, an actually lost points? Back then, when you saw the dude in the HW or the Alliance equivalent (GM? I don't know really), you KNEW that dude was serious, that dude knew his class, and that dude would rip you a new one. Now, just because you see someone in s3, you don't immediately know if he's good or bad, you just know he put his time in, especially if he still has his s2 shoulders. At least by going this route, the players who ARE of a higher caliber will have something to show for it, you will know them on sight as being a better skilled player, and they put in the same amount of time and effort that most of the raiders are also putting in. And, speaking for myself, my personal rank is pretty low, though I have also had the misfortune of teaming up with people who hated pvp, but wanted to do it for fun. They were my friends, and I'm glad we had a good time, but I am eager to get back in there with players who do have the pvp experience, and want to do more than just get a free "epix" handout. I know there are more like me, people who enjoy the competition and want to actually excel at one point in the game, especially those who's guilds aren't progressing, or who are on a low pop server but still want to gear up to at least plow through heroics and some of the ten mans. I apologize for going a bit off topic, but in a way I feel this is nostalgic, and it makes me want to improve my game, not just for the gear, but I guess for the knowledge that I didn't just sit around for a handout. Every piece of s4 I am able to get will be like a slap in the face to those people who say all pvper's just want handouts and have no skill.

Robo, I agree. I do think it will have that effect... having full S4 will be some serious bragging rights.

Well, unless lots and lots bail from the arena, causing Blizzard to change their mind halfway through. Not that that would ever happen, eh?

On a serious note, though, I'm not describing this as a "good" change or a "bad" change. I just think that lots of folks will be choosing to shrug, move on, and spend time doing other things. Certainly that's my current plan.

Kazaganthi
05-12-2008, 06:47 AM
There may be no point in mentioning this, but does anyone remember High Warlord? Or the shear amount of pvp dedication it took to reach HW? In a way, it almost seems as though this is a nod back to the old days when we had, what, 13 ranks was it? And you HAD to play all the time, or you lost your rank, an actually lost points? Back then, when you saw the dude in the HW or the Alliance equivalent (GM? I don't know really), you KNEW that dude was serious, that dude knew his class, and that dude would rip you a new one. Now, just because you see someone in s3, you don't immediately know if he's good or bad, you just know he put his time in, especially if he still has his s2 shoulders. At least by going this route, the players who ARE of a higher caliber will have something to show for it, you will know them on sight as being a better skilled player, and they put in the same amount of time and effort that most of the raiders are also putting in. And, speaking for myself, my personal rank is pretty low, though I have also had the misfortune of teaming up with people who hated pvp, but wanted to do it for fun. They were my friends, and I'm glad we had a good time, but I am eager to get back in there with players who do have the pvp experience, and want to do more than just get a free "epix" handout. I know there are more like me, people who enjoy the competition and want to actually excel at one point in the game, especially those who's guilds aren't progressing, or who are on a low pop server but still want to gear up to at least plow through heroics and some of the ten mans. I apologize for going a bit off topic, but in a way I feel this is nostalgic, and it makes me want to improve my game, not just for the gear, but I guess for the knowledge that I didn't just sit around for a handout. Every piece of s4 I am able to get will be like a slap in the face to those people who say all pvper's just want handouts and have no skill.

I completely disagree with your high warlord characterization. High warlord was a reward given to people who had way too much free time or paid their friend to play their char all day for them. You had to basically live on the game to get high warlord. Skill was a very distant second requirement. I have known many high warlords that were very good, but I have seen even more that don't know axe from mace. Arena has it right in that it rewards skill not time played. The problem is that they run the season so long that most people get everything. Rating requirements are a nice gesture. Of course I always was biased b/c I had a job and all and couldn't be online 12 hours a day to get high warlord..;) For the most part if you see a Gladiator they can play...at least more so than a Warlord.

Kaz

Kazeyonoma
05-12-2008, 09:43 AM
Agreed with Kaz. I mean my closest warrior buddy is a HWL, he got it through grit, and no one doubts that he is probably the best pvp warrior in our faction, he just doesn't have a druid and he chose to go swords =P. But on his way there to HWL, there were 2 others who just camped the spot by having 4-5 players, constantly log into BGs, and just farm it for him, they wouldn't even play, they'd just stay mounted and ride around collecting HKs and what not, to make sure they wouldn't lose rank. I got to rank 10 I think best, and that was a horrible grind. This arena comparison isn't even close. A good player with a decent makeup can play their 10 games a week, roughly 1-2 hours a week, and get a good rank, and good gear. That's way different from spending literally 24 hours a day logged on your char through various people just to stay competitive, let alone move up in ranks.

This'll be interesting, to see, we'll just have to wait and find out how the s4 changes will affect arenas.

mightymouse012
05-12-2008, 10:11 AM
Do you have to maintain that rating after you get the peice to be able to continue to wear it?

Kazeyonoma
05-12-2008, 10:14 AM
No, you just have to have the personal rating AND team rating at time of purchase.

mightymouse012
05-12-2008, 10:32 AM
At least it now gives me a reason to more than 10 arena matches a week.

Bloodwraith
05-17-2008, 11:10 AM
People have already found new ways to cheat the arena system:


1x. Relatively high rated arena team, you will probably need a 1700+ rated team to begin with.
Personally, I bought one at 1730.

1x Friend to help you.

How do you do it?

1. Say you bought a 1700-ish team,
your personal rating should be at 1500. Now invite a friend to the team.

2. Queue up, instead of facing a 1700 rated team, 90% of the time you should meet a team in the 1500-bracket.
There's no shortcut here, you have to beat that team.

3. Upon winning, your team rating should go up from 5-7 rating most of the time, and your personal rating initially climbs 15-20 rating.

4. Keep beating the 1500-rated teams, after 15 games or so, your team rating should be at 1800 and your personal should be at 1670 or something like that.
As yours/your friends personal rating gets higher, it gets harder!
You will face teams of the lowest team members personal rating as long as it is over 150 below the team rating.
So what do you do? See step 5.

5. Have your friend leave and rejoin the team, he should be at 1500 personal rating,
that means you will now face 1500-rated opponents again
. Start playing with him and repeat 1-5.
Eventually your personal rating will even out with the team rating, last night I got to 1850 personal and team rating following this routine.
And all along I was fighting 1500-1600 team.

Questions and answer:

Q: Why did you have your friend leave and rejoin?
That way his personal rating gets reset to 1500, so that you have an anchor to keep you down in the 1500-bracket.

Enjoy guys!

Q:This works, but it gets hard the higher my own personal rating gets, is there a way to make sure I always face low rated teams even as my personal rating climbs?
If you want to get to 2k rating, you will eventually face 1700 rated teams in 2v2 (the average for you and your friends rating if you're at 1900 and he's at 1500)
There is a way to bypass this, I explain below.

Since you face teams equal to all the team mebers average rating, the most efficent way to use this exploit is to buy a 5v5 team, and have four friends help you.
This can be a bit tricky since you actually have to find 4 friends that's willing to play with you for your profit only,
but this will most certainly get you up to 2k+ teamrating and your own personal rating facing ONLY 1500-1600 rated teams.
The only difference is that you use a 5v5 team instead of a 2v2, so still use step 1-5.

TomHuxley
05-18-2008, 03:55 PM
I have a slightly different take on the new S4 arena requirements. First of all, I have no doubt that those of you saying that people will drop out are correct, and therefore undoubtedly it will be much harder to get a 2000 team rating this season.

And I think that's awesome.

Not because I have all S3 gear and am itching to dominate S4 arena, but rather because I do almost entirely PvE. Although I've done a bit of arena and my share of battlegrounds, it's been pretty obnoxious to watch people spend a few hours a week (less if they buy arena points as has been common until the last patch) and get gear substantially better than the PvE gear my guild has worked so hard to get.

Does that sound bitter? Maybe, but it goes back to "people chasing incentives" as was discussed earlier in the thread. One of those incentives is being able to take pride in your gear, and the rapid progression of PvP gear is really devaluing the prestige of much more difficult PvE accomplishments.

Think about it: it takes a lot longer to get even full T4 PvE gear than it does to lose a lot and et all of the unrated S3 gear (with S2 to fill in the holes) and you don't even have to work with more than 1-4 people to do it. Meanwhile guilds struggle for months to finish Kara regularly and move on to Gruuls, only to find out how much harder it is to get 25 geared people to show up.

Imo it should be just as hard for people to aquire S4 gear as it is for people to down Sunwell's 25-man raid. Otherwise the game has become nothing but a fantasy PvP tournament, and frankly a lot of people I know will stop giving a horse's rear about it.

Karza
05-19-2008, 05:07 PM
People have already found new ways to cheat the arena system:

Which proves the point that, no matter what system you create there will always be people who quickly figure out how to "jang" it. For more information about this, there is a discussion (if you call it that on the WoW forums) here:

WoW Forums -> Arena Rating Calculation Clarification (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=6440951169&sid=1&pageNo=1)

Dweebfire
05-20-2008, 05:03 PM
Kaz...I'm sorry but I have to disagree with your logic about the S4 arena gear.

1. The arena rating has much less to do with skill than it does with class composition and gear.

2. New players to the arena game face a near impossible climb through players that are already geared 1-3 seasons better than them.

3. The 1500 bracket is already clogged with full S3 players dragging buddies and team rating up. Everytime we try to play our 1500 games, we constantly face fully geared teams, worthy of a much higher rating.

4. The PVE guy who complained about how easy it is to get PVP gear...should stick with PVE and stfu. Because you spend 10 hours a week, raiding the same instance with 25 others for several months... that's more difficult than obtaining arena gear? Try obtaining over 12k arena points to get your gear... 250-350 points per week. Not to mention about 36k honor for the rest of the set. PVP'ers work just as hard as you noobs to get their gear.

5. The arena is system is a joke. Please dont even try to tell me that this system determines PVP "skill" because we all know that it does not. If you want to define skill in arena... then everyone should have the same gear.

6. Give the top teams some bitching eye candy as a reward... an enchant that makes them 50% larger... a bitching mount...whatever.

Sorry for the rant.

TomHuxley
05-25-2008, 10:20 AM
The PVE guy who complained about how easy it is to get PVP gear...should stick with PVE and stfu. Because you spend 10 hours a week, raiding the same instance with 25 others for several months... that's more difficult than obtaining arena gear? Try obtaining over 12k arena points to get your gear... 250-350 points per week. Not to mention about 36k honor for the rest of the set. PVP'ers work just as hard as you noobs to get their gear.

That was me, and I see your grasp of logic equals your sense of polite discourse. Look, my main is a mage wearing almost all PvP gear; I know exactly how hard it is to do BGs and arena, and for the top-rated teams (those running around with S3 shoulders and weapons) you're right, it's pretty damned hard. I also know that you can get yourself decked out entirely in S2-S3 arena and honor gear without ever once winning an arena or a battleground. You can do it on your own schedule, at most worrying about one other person to meet up with you for 10 2x2 games on a night when the wait times are shortest (heck, if you have a friend living in your house you can just sign them in and lose if they're not a PvPer).

Let's put that in perspective, shall we? That's wearing PvP gear that is equivalent to what you get from T5 and T6 instances, without needing a guild, worryng about other players schedules or shortcomings, and you don't have to even win at PvP to get there (although it goes faster if you are good obviously).

If you don't think that devalues the work of people who are trying to do 25-mans you're kidding yourself.

I completely agree with this part:


Give the top teams some bitching eye candy as a reward... an enchant that makes them 50% larger... a bitching mount...whatever.

But why give them the best gear in the game, unless we're turning WoW into a fatasy deathmatch tournament? I'm not saying that PvP has no role, I geared my mage that way and it was nice, but why not give all PvPers the same gear while they're in the Arena (say S2) and just give them some other non-gear status symbol for being the best?

TomHuxley
05-25-2008, 10:43 AM
Let me clarify that I am NOT knocking PvP. It's fun. It's just that I think it has been way too lax with the gear rewards. The vast majority of raiders will never see the inside of Black Temple, so why should most Arena participants get 3/5 S3 gear (plus all the BG honor gear that goes with it?).

Right now if I see a mage in T5 I am far more impressed than one wearing the equivalent S2 gear (even though I much prefer the blue S2 gear aesthetically) because I don't know if that PvPer worked for 30 hours a week up to practice to get up to a 1800 rating, or if they lost every fame they played. There isn't a distinction, and I think the answer is to place greaer restrictions on who gets PvP gear, not make it more available.

If you have to be in the to 10% to get S3 gear, it would really mean something. The system before ratings requirements devalued PvP accomplishments as well as PvE.

Dweebfire
05-29-2008, 01:11 AM
Right now if I see a mage in T5 I am far more impressed than one wearing the equivalent S2 gear (even though I much prefer the blue S2 gear aesthetically) because I don't know if that PvPer worked for 30 hours a week up to practice to get up to a 1800 rating, or if they lost every fame they played. There isn't a distinction, and I think the answer is to place greaer restrictions on who gets PvP gear, not make it more available.

Maybe we just think different Hux... I mean, why are you so impressed when you see a T5 or T6 mage? What did he do that is so great other than spend a gawd awful amount of time, week after week grinding the same scripted bosses over and over and over? Is it really that impressive? I don't want to take anything away from that accomplishment, but it really doesn't impress me much.

You're a PVE'er... how many times have you carried people through an instance to get them a piece of tier gear knowing they really weren't that great of a player? How many times has the rest of the raid made up for the lacking of a few guild mates? Is there a DPS requirement for tier gear? Yeah.. kind of a lame point but I think you should be able to see where I'm going with it.

Why is it... that because I enjoy a different part of the game (PVP) that I should be limited on the gear I wear because those that enjoy another part of the game (PVE) feel slighted? Makes about as much sense to me as putting an arena requirement on BG gear.

I personally don't believe that gear is.. nor should it be.. a testament to skill in this game. We all pay $15.00 a month.. we all have spent hundreds of hours playing the game. Reward us for the gear and let performance be the deciding skill factor. As it stands now.. gear will be going to those that already have it.. and increase the difficulty of those who don't.

Karza
05-30-2008, 01:27 PM
I personally don't measure myself vs. another players accomplishments by what gear they wear and have never really understood the PvE vs. PvP gear accomplishments line of thinking. In both cases, there are the upper 10% leading the way, the legitimate players grinding and struggling and then everybody else "cheating and janging" the system left, right and center because they can. It is possible to lose every arena match in arena and still get gear and it is possible to have toons just following as bots in PvE raids and gear them up. *shrug* Neither side is more righteous than the other and anyone who thinks different is just kidding themselves to justify a point of view.

It's like Kaz said, the cheaters do not impact him because skill will always beat someone who cheated their way to gear. (Unfortunately, I am not at that level of skill and I struggle.) The same is true with PvE gear, the skilled players will always get it first. Beyond that, gear is an absolutely horrible mechanism to try and measure of a player's abilities because you can never know for sure how they got it until you see them play, so why bother?

Bloodwraith
06-11-2008, 09:56 AM
Added S4 announcement info!

sukynoob
06-26-2008, 07:22 AM
This is a very interesting topic.

Im one of those PvE'er altho Im on a PvP server. I like world PvP, and enjoy playing PvP. I know this discussion is a little old, but here are my couple of cents:

1. Isnt there already non-combat items given out to the highly ranked teams..ie armored netherdrake and a few special weapons? why is there a need to make S4 and old s3 gear also exclusive?

2. There already is a "tiering" system in arena rewards that makes the best teams better geared then everyone else. Its called the arena points system. Think about it. If your on a team that is rated 2000 your obviously going to get geared much faster than someone like me on a 1300 rated team. So there is already a distribution of gear based on "skill". I played all of S3 this year. I think I was able to purchase S2 chest, S2 weapon, S3 hands, and S3 offhand. Thats all the points I was able to accumulate (yes I missed a week or two). But that shows you that someone with less then 1500 rating simply cant amass enough points required to purchase the newest gear. Mean while the highest teams are able to gear up, plus bank 5000 arena points...LOL jeez I wish I could even accumulate 5000 points in a season!

Also, Blizzard needs to enforce a rule to prevent this false bumping of personal rating..such as allowing people to only join 1 team per bracket per season. If someone quits from the team the team can find a replacement. However that person can not join another team or rejoin the team they left.

3. Ironically, reading this post was the first time I ever heard about "twinking" teams to get your personal rating way up. Yet another advantage to PvP'ers to cheat to get their high level gear. Meanwhile Im buying S2 stuff cuz I didnt have high enough rating by playing the season correctly.

4. Please dont spew the "skill" will always win. This is a computer game. There is studying and knowing how to fight opponents, and reaction time on keyboard. Its not like sports where there are so many factors in talent and skill. Even if you dont believe that you cant tell me that skill is all that matters. Think about any sport that gives the higher ranked teams better gear to use. There is none, because its not a "sport" anymore its a slaughter and it no longer relies purely on skill. Sure its fun for the highest ranked teams.

Here is my arguement against the "Skill" dispute. If you clone two identical Tiger Woods (essentially both have identical skill). You give Tiger #1 todays golf clubs using graphite and titinium, and you give Tiger #2 woods clubs with steel shafts from 1910. Every couple of years you tell them you'll come out with newer technology clubs that improves accuracy and distance but they have to "purchase" each club based on how many wins they have against each other in competitions. Do you think Tiger #2 will ever catch up to Tiger #1? This would hold true to any sport that uses any sort of gear. In every professional sport every team, every individual is given the ability to use equal level of gear, whether it be tennis rackets, golf clubs, shoes, ice skates, protective equipment, etc. etc. This is the only way you know that its the skill or natural talent of the athletes and not the gear they wear.

While the highly geared S4 people are already collecting their points for the next patch. Im still grinding my way to get my S2 and the S3 parts that I can.

Lets say I am exactly the same skill level as someone who has S4 gear and team rating of 2050. I started PvP in S3. There is no possibility of me ever catching up without requiring me to have a much higher rating. If I stay at the same rating of 2050, its mathematically impossible for me to catch up.

This is not the case in PvE. Someone who is fully decked out in T6 gear has no "points" to save up for for the next expansion, nor does he have anyway to fully deck out in new gear when the enxt expansion comes out. He has to wait for it..meanwhile everyone else is catching up to him gaining ground by getting T4 and T5 and slowly building up to T6 gear.

Kazeyonoma
06-26-2008, 09:32 AM
There are no special weapons. and the armored drake proves no use in pvp.

Tatt
06-26-2008, 01:44 PM
Personally I try to look into the other player's stats, not whether their gear is PVE or PVP. The really good player will have the best of both world's for PVE. I do not know about the casting classes, but I know that a warrior with a low AP or crit still hurts, whether the gear is from BG's, arena's, or heroic's. Judge players on the intelligence of their gear choices, not on where they spend more of their time.

grengelberg
06-27-2008, 04:00 AM
No more Arena no more bg what do we do now?

I play with my girlfriend, I mostly like to play together with her.
I dont really like playing with cyberfriends.
Cant really go above 15-1600rating with her.

We already have all the S3 and s4 we can get.

That means no rewards, after buying the pants.
playing in arena is just saving unusable points.

We still let someone que us up but never enter since we collect
the worthles points anyway.
we do the daily quests and get our 10 loses without even go near the arena anymore

To get better rating we need to reroll and make a cookie cutter combo.

To make new chars exalted with the factions max out profs JC enchanting etc and
get the honor gear again.
Enchant everything and then start
working towards better rankings would take maybe 200-400hours each?

Instead we could use work overtime 200-400hours and earn a total of
10.000-20.000 on top of our regular income.

Lose 20.000 dollars just to reroll... no thanks.

Clyde
06-27-2008, 08:32 AM
Almost exactly where I am, substituting "wife" for "girlfriend."

We are set on S3. I can finish up, so that I have S3 head, chest and pants, S4 gloves, S2 shoulders and S2 weapon. Then why play?

OK, for fun of course. And it's possible maybe that we could get S4 pants and chest.... last season we went 102 - 100 and finished at 1556. But the fact is that we "fallen off the path." Can I get worked up about a shiny new S4 throwing axe? Hrm.

Right now our at home conversation revolves around the decision about going ahead and picking up the S3 and mothballing the characters until WotLK or making a run at the chestpiece. I think the former is more likely, but we'll see.

Tatt
06-27-2008, 08:34 AM
The last two posts seem to draw the line between 2 kinds of players.....those who play for fun and those who play for gear.....

Clyde
06-27-2008, 08:41 AM
The last two posts seem to draw the line between 2 kinds of players.....those who play for fun and those who play for gear.....

You misunderstand. We started arena for gear, yes. We found we liked it, quite a bit. Very enjoyable.

But our playing time is very, very limited. Getting in 10 games a week for our 2v2 is a fairly significant investment for us. I do business travel, and don't choose to arena on hotel internet, so it limits us to weekend time, mostly, and our daytime is devoted to our kids.

Uninterested? No... we are casual.

Can we continue to arena for fun? Of course we can. But we might as well queue up for unrated games. In fact, we probably would rather than just pump wins into the systems for folks that are allowed to buy what we could perhaps with time afford but will not be permitted to touch.

Here is our question.... given that we play for about 3 nights a week, and only for about 3 hours a night, is it worth our time to devote a significant amount of that time to an activity that will pay no gold, gain no equipment, and help us not at all? Or should we find another in game activity?

Arena is fun. So is running an instance for badges, or alting. Time is precious.

So, might we ditch arena participation, given that the act of accumulating points is basically a slap in the face unless we learn to outperform folks that already are better equipped than we are and have more time to play? Yeah.

If I wanted to gain good PvE gear, I'd run heroics and Kara for badge loot.

Tatt
06-27-2008, 08:51 AM
I apologize, your post sounded like you would stop playing completely, not jsut stop arena'ing. Have fun in the PVE world :p

Clyde
06-27-2008, 09:03 AM
I apologize, your post sounded like you would stop playing completely, not jsut stop arena'ing. Have fun in the PVE world :p

It's a possibility. Certainly Blizzard has just taken one of the easiest things for us to "get a group for" (that would be just the two of us) and made it significantly less desireable.

But let me dig into the question of "play for gear vs. play for fun" a bit more, 'cause I think it's worth thinking about. How much of each do we do? How key is getting the gear to moving forward?

Let me try to put this into perspective for those that have solid PvP teams. Lets say you are putting together a 25-man raid group. How much tougher is it to put together if you know you only get drops if you are in the top 50% of the raids going in, speed wise? That you might clear the entire instance but get nothing at all? And that until you are faster than guilds that already have gear, you will continue to get nothing? And that the better bosses (and therefore loot tables) drop nothing unless you are faster still... that unless you are one of the very fastest raids, Illidan drops nothing at all?

Would this improve or hurt recruiting? Would you say that those that feel their time is better spent elsewhere "don't like PvE?"

For those of us that don't have one of the "golden combos" and are behind on gear in the PvP scene, this is what the arena changes feel like. Weren't on the ground floor? Have a partner that didn't roll the "right class" three years ago? Touch luck, bud. Stinks to be you. Hope you can outperform the folks that were doing it longer and have the gear you want already, 'cause otherwise you get diddly.

It's a very, very bad change.

Klimpen
06-27-2008, 09:07 AM
I'm playing with my girlfriend and it's nearly as frustrating as it is fun. Which detracts from the 'funness' of it all. I'm extremely competative. I've seen us be in the zone and it's an amazing thing to see. I can see us pushing 2k, if not shoulders/Brutal Gladiator. In fact, BG is my goal.

However, until we're both better geared, she more experienced, I less rusty, both of us able to get into the zone easily and for long periods [2-3hours] it's going to be a frustrating experience. And I hate that from something that is supposed to be all fun [though it is anyway, just not all]. Oh, and random lagspikes have lost us by far the majority of our matches. I'd say without them we'd be hovering low-mid 1500's.

Third rewrite's the charm. Overt anger [even if it's directed at the self] isn't productive. In a relationship or on here.

Tatt
06-27-2008, 10:46 AM
Clyde - which Brutal pieces do you need to be in top 50% to get? Other than shoulders and weapon, maybe chest ( I do not do much arena so I forget the rating req's at the moment) won't most of the gear come from a relatively 50/50 win/loss ratio? And please do not get me started on raid drops, I am a fury warrior, which means I get 0 drops unless every other rogue/hunter/shaman/feral druid has already picked it up, or it is one of the extremely few dps plate drops. I play for fun, sure gear is fun, but group synergy is what I enjoy the most. The heroic that goes off like you had all practiced together for months. The Nalorakk kill that looked like the tanks never dropped below 50%. The Lurker kill that seemed like everyone was in Sunwell gear instead of T4. Those are the moment's I remember, not the random drop that improved my playing ability 1/10 of 1%.

Clyde
06-27-2008, 12:49 PM
Every item that has a rating requirement on it requires you to be in the top 50%. You start at 1500. Every win or loss moves points from one person to another. Roughly half of all players are below 1500. The lowest rated piece is at 1550. Only the S4 gloves, off-hand and thrown weapon have no rating requirement.

1500 is 50% percentile, by definition. Oh, yes, there is the question of folks dropping out, making new teams if they drop too far, etc. But folks make new teams from the top end as well, often to help friends. Looking at the armory ratings it seems to balance out.

If you are below average, you can buy S4 gloves and nothing else. To get the pants you need to be just a tick above average, then up from there. To get the weapon or the shoulders you need to be very good indeed, but to get anything but the gloves you must be better than most.

Please understand that I don't think this is "unfair." It just doesn't reward participation, it only rewards being more successful than most other players. This is OK if what you are looking to do is reward players for excellence. It is a poor choice of objective if what you are trying to do is encourage participation, especially "new blood" participation.

For the wife and I, we have enjoyed playing. It's had it's ups and downs, sure. But we are as dead average as dead average can be, 102 - 100 last season. The reward structure is clear in what it is saying to us. Unless we suddenly become much better, we should recognize that time spent here is rather like time spent RPing. You might have fun with it, but it won't help prepare you for future ventures at all.

grengelberg
06-28-2008, 12:29 PM
Play for fun and play for gear is it really that simple?

Me and my girlfriend enjoy the game, we even play a bit from
hotels sometimes when we travel.

Still at 1500-1600 rating, cant go higher, we get 0 zero new gear now
less than 1week after a new season.
We can farm gold but we already have all the gems and enchants
maxed out.

So the gold, arena points, and honor points are useless to us.

If every single wow player was in the same situation as me
and my girlfriend
Would they still play?

No more gear at all just endless raiding without any drops
arena and bg with zero rewards how many would stay in the game?


Without any possible rewards just "fun" as motivation is
not really enough IMHO.

Tatt
06-28-2008, 01:17 PM
um, 1500-1600 rating means you can get S4 gloves, pants, neck, ring, and off hand.......

Ukyo
06-28-2008, 02:19 PM
Plus, arena and bg means you can pick up S2 gear, and that gear is pretty much decent to keep rising in the ratings. Doing arenas for gear gets boring, everyone knows that, and unless you're with a good combo or having fun with friends, you'll stop enjoying it after a while.

Tatt
06-28-2008, 02:41 PM
I love people's comments of how without gear they cannot move up without gear, especially without resilience. I looked at jsut gear for an ms warrior, this is with no chants for extra resilience, nor gems, but just using gear that requires a 1500 rating or less, or is purchased with honor, a MS warrior can have 339 resilience from gear alone. Want a reason to play? Play to improve. Their is no one's gear in this game pvp wise that makes it impossible for you to beat them. The guy with full S4 gear has the EXACT SAME amount of resilience available to them. It does not change. All that changes (for an ms warrior) are AP, crit, and hit. I am not much of an arena player, but I would have fun by trying to beat the teams that outgear me. Use strategy. Exploit weaknesses. Some of the arguments I am seeing are unless we can roll over teams using the same strategy we have always used, without trying to adapt or improve, then it is not fun anymore........

sukynoob
06-30-2008, 12:57 AM
I think you need to re-read the posts. I havent seen anyone say that have to have S4 to win. What they are saying is they are rapidly losing incentives to compete in S4.

I really like the comments about how its not about getting gear because that is the biggest line of BS Ive ever heard. This entire game along with every MMORPG is based on getting new gear. That's how companies string people along to keep playing. Also, if its really not about getting new gear..then why do all the top teams even bother buying S4 gear? why not compete in S2 gear or even better green drops from lvling..If they are that good..wouldnt they want that challenge?

The fact of the matter is, with the new season, both S4 items, S3 items, and new honor rewards still require team ratings, which is a drastic change from the past. In the past the lower rated teams had full access to 1 season old gear and all honor gear. Now most of those teams will only have partial access to 1 season old gear and full access to 2 seasons old gear (which they probably already have). So if your team rating hovers at 1500, they are probably already maxed out or close to being maxed out on gear. Meanwhile even the best of the best teams still have several weeks of collecting points before they are maxed out on their S4 gear.

And for those of you who argue its about skill/competition and not gear. Then what is the purpose of "selling gear" based on team ratings? If gear really doesnt make the difference between a good team and a bad team, then why is there even a distinction between different gear? If you want to reward people from arena then give them titles (like the old system). Until everyone has access to the same gear, you will never truely know if its gearing or skill because all of the top ranked teams have the top ranked gear. When the Detroit Red Wings won the Stanely cup this year, they were given a title. They werent given new ice-skates that boosts their stats by 1/2%. Why not, because it wouldnt be a competition of skill anymore. No matter how small of an incremental boost that gear gives them its still no longer a competition of skill.

If its truely only about skill then show me a team that makes 2000+ arena rating in S1 and lower gear (heck I'd even be satisfied with seeing a S2 and lower geared team). You cant, because it doesnt exist. The reason being is because yea maybe they are skilled enough lets say get to 1700? at which point they will be playing full s3/s4 and max honor teams. If they dont start getting similar gearing they will be stagnant at that point.

Again, I iterate the way the system is set up (without team rating requirements) already allows the better ranked teams to distinquish themselves. This is accomplished by the higher ranked teams collecting points faster thus allowing them to get full S4 gear way faster than a low ranked team. Maybe instead of using arena team ratings why not just boost the cost of the equipment up more. So that a 1800+ ranked team (or whatever ranking you determine is necessary for a full season set) for the duration of the season can just barely buy the full S4 set. Meanwhile everyone else can buy any gear they want but they maybe saving for that one item for all season. But this at least gives everyone incentitives to keep playing with viable rewards. So maybe like the middle tiered teams who hover at 1500 (never reaching 1600) can get access to maybe 1/2 the gear? Lets get something straight, gloves and offhand season rewards are crappy anyways. Everyone is going for the armor and weapon.

Clyde
06-30-2008, 02:17 PM
Let me try to express this a slightly different way.

Fun in WoW generally comes from two sources. One part of this is experience and success... we beat Gruul, or I win this match, or I complete this quest. It's learning and winning the fight, doing something we have not done before. Cutting edge raiders live for this, as an example.

The other part is character advancement. During the early game, it's leveling, but in the end game it's gearing. "Getting a new Shiny" is part of the attraction.

The second half is greatly nerfed for many players with this change. This doesn't mean that there is nothing left to the arena. But it does make the arena less attractive.

ebs2002
06-30-2008, 03:17 PM
How many people would run ZA if the only loot to be gotten was from the timed event?

Well, people would run ZA and be able to get the first two chests (if you're capable of clearing the first two bosses, you can get the first two chests). However, a guild just starting T5 isn't likely to get beyond the first two timed rewards. So guilds would just farm them, never bothering to learn the dragonhawk or lynx, because there's no loot there for them.

And once everyone got all the loot they need from the first two chests, they'd stop going.

And that's what I predict will happen with arena. Personally, because I mostly PvE, and I PvP with friends instead of with "God Groups", I've only broken 1575 once throughout all of S3 (and I got enough points for S3 gloves, legs, and hat, mostly through a 3v3 team..so you can figure out how many weeks that was). And there are a LOT of people like that.

Clyde
07-01-2008, 06:11 AM
Well, after much hemming and hawing, the wife and I decided to venture back in last night to partake in the first week of S4. So (for all my protests) there is a data point there... we were on the fence and jumped in. The matches felt about the same, more or less... we went 6-4, losing all three matches that involved resto druids but well otherwise.

We'll see how the season goes, but with the scanty data we had, felt like the mix of folks was more-or-less the same.

grengelberg
07-16-2008, 10:31 PM
Me and my girl we decided to quit the game.
We cant get any rewards at all, no items
no character advancement, since we have all the items you can get
at 1500-1600 arena ratings.


If we ever want to play 1 or 2 arena games we can borrow
some chars from friends for an hour or two.

Kazeyonoma
07-17-2008, 09:05 AM
That's tough to hear, what makeup are you two running? I find it hard to believe that your makeup can't find SOME way of breaking 1700.

grengelberg
07-17-2008, 10:36 AM
I play Warr and she play priest, she is not that good since
she never duel or read tactics, we travel and play from
Singapore since 2007, lag is minimum 700-900ms
instant spells can take 2seconds sometimes.

We cant reach 1700 as long as play with her and I only want to play
with her, so we quit the game.

Btw Best game we ever played so far.

byechee
07-17-2008, 10:54 AM
yeah war priest is really bad regardless of lag

Kazeyonoma
07-17-2008, 11:19 AM
war priest can break 1700 though, just takes a bit of luck and a really good priest. which from the sounds of it. didn't seem to be the case due to lag or lack of practice.

But I can't say this wasn't intended. You shouldn't have access to great gear if you can't compete for it. You aren't expected free loot from pve if you don't down a boss, so why should pvp be different?

Karza
07-17-2008, 10:30 PM
Well, if you were going to pick a time to quit WoW, now is probably as good a time as any given that S4 gear will be obsolete before 90% of folks get fully geared anyway when WotLK is released. You should look at Age of Conan if you enjoy PvP. All the kids in the call center who were playing WoW and were frustrated with PvP are playing AoC now and they can't stop talking about it. Something to consider anyway. ;)

grengelberg
07-18-2008, 08:25 AM
I guess being average good, is not good enough to play the game
What is the point in doing something over and over, without progress?
Bye bye wow.


AOC looks very nice.

http://community.ageofconan.com/conan/frontend/files/CONTENT/aoc_friday_110108_screen_1.jpg

The graphic look much better than wow, I think we will
play AOC instead.
http://community.ageofconan.com/conan/frontend/files/CONTENT/AOCCES20088.jpg
Tyvm for reminding me about the age of Conan game.

Clyde
07-18-2008, 12:33 PM
That's tough to hear, what makeup are you two running? I find it hard to believe that your makeup can't find SOME way of breaking 1700.

Why do you find this hard to believe? Remember, given the mechanics of the way ratings work, 1500 is dead average. If you are just a little worse than dead average, you'll end up below 1500. To be above 1700 you have to beat folks in the 1600s, which means you have to be beating above-average players.

Not everyone can be 80th percentile. Indeed, by definition, 79% can't get there. Oh, there is some wiggle room, of course. But if you were in the 1400s last season? Pft.

For the "Bottom half"... the folks that lose more often than they win... (and remember, for each player that wins a bunch, somebody has to lose those games)... this system means they get left out. To improve, they have to outplay people that are already more skilled that also have better gear. And if they can't outplay folks that are both more skilled and better geared, they still stay at the bottom.

Arena has gone from "a good way to introduce reasons to get folks into PvP" to something far more exclusive.

Karza
07-18-2008, 01:59 PM
I guess being average good, is not good enough to play the game
What is the point in doing something over and over, without progress?
Bye bye wow.

Well, I think a better caveat is that, IF you are not in a group composition that can be successful THEN what's the point in doing something that has a ceiling on how successful you can be no matter how skilled you are. Warrior/Priest is going to have lots of challenges. The game is very rewarding for those who have skill and a complimentary group composition. Since you are playing with someone you want to play with, your choice is one or both of you have to re-roll or find 3 more people who will create a group that won't have challenges.

From my point of view, given that Arena's are a contrived PvP setting for gear progression that requires a lot of flexibility built upon a game engine that is fairly inflexible, quitting to me is a good consumer choice rather than re-rolling given the amount of time that will need to be invested. (Assuming you don't want to play 5's.) No reason to reward Blizzard for a poorly designed PvP game when there are others on the market with a much better system.