PDA

View Full Version : Raid Minimums



Ciderhelm
04-21-2008, 10:52 AM
TankSpot - Calculator (http://www.tankspot.com/index.php?pageid=Calculator)

Had a suggestion via Private Message that we add a series of instance checks to the EH/TDR calculator. This makes sense, but we need to establish minimums, and I need your help doing that.

Rules
-We assume the player is reasonably buffed when they input their stats.
-We assume the player needs to be able to reliably handle the first half of the instance.
-We assume the player is a main tank, not an off tank.
-We assume the player is not in an expert raiding group and that their stats may need to compensate for healing output or gear.

Example - Starting Karazhan
27,000 - 28,000 Effective Health
30% Avoidance

gardek
04-21-2008, 12:57 PM
Recently started MH/BT so it's still fresh in memory.
Stats were:

Mount Hyjal/Black Temple:
54,000 - 56,000 Effective Health
45% - 50% Avoidance

Seemed like a good ballpark estimate to start with.
[Edited for raid buffs]

loquatious
04-21-2008, 01:23 PM
I think it might be better to do it without estimating raid buffs, much easier to type in the stats off our armore/in game toons.

Ciderhelm
04-21-2008, 01:51 PM
Raid buffs are the most responsible way to do it. It also allows people to know the point at which they don't need to be using consumables as often, if their gear naturally surpasses the minimums w/o buffs.

Kazeyonoma
04-21-2008, 02:31 PM
I'd say in mostly badge gear and kara gear i'm pretty solid for most of t5 content so lets see what I come up with:

EH: 38963.21
is with 14.5k hp (doable post kara with badge gear) and 16k armor (likewise doable with kara and badge gear)

And I think most tanks can come out of Kara with 40% avoidance which is suitable for most of SSC/TK beginning fights, probably push up to 45% by vashj and kael.

Beginning T5:
39k EH
40% Avoidance

kawika
04-22-2008, 02:37 PM
I'd say in mostly badge gear and kara gear i'm pretty solid for most of t5 content so lets see what I come up with:

EH: 38963.21
is with 14.5k hp (doable post kara with badge gear) and 16k armor (likewise doable with kara and badge gear)

And I think most tanks can come out of Kara with 40% avoidance which is suitable for most of SSC/TK beginning fights, probably push up to 45% by vashj and kael.

Beginning T5:
39k EH
40% Avoidance

would you say that ZA = T5 content in terms of EH? I was at a similar mark to start ZA, although the EH check increases a lot going from the bear & eagle to taking on the Lynx and dragonhawk bosses.

My team is 3/6 ZA (bear, eagle, lynx). I've been doing the OT role for lynx rather than MT. I would need to calc out what my buffed stats would have been. Unbuffed i was ~15.5k HP, ~16.5k AR.

Dreg
04-23-2008, 04:39 AM
are you guys sure on these minimums, i'm looking at my stats with what you guys have posted .... i have not made it into SSC yet, and with these minimums your saying i could start BT?

full raid buffed i have 21000 HP, ~17000 armor, 47.50% avoidance, 442 SBV. 57688.62 EH

armory link in case necessary
The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Akama&n=Drx)

Radhja
04-23-2008, 05:50 AM
THIS is precisely what I've been looking for!

Unbuffed: 14.5k health, 16.3k armor, 35% avoidance, 660 SBV (~40k EH, 74.48% TDR)
Buffed: ~18.5k health, ~17.5k armor, 35% avoidance, 660 SBV (~52k EH, 75.52% TDR)

My personal progression is 12/12 KZ, 2/2 Gruul, 1/1 Mag, and 4/6 ZA. (Can't seem to find a group that wants to do anything beyond the chests...)

So, according to this new system, I should be able to tackle SSC/TK with no issues (barring unfamilarity with the content) and I barely reach the minimums for BT/MH?

Rockin' out with some T6 pug action!

Stroja
04-23-2008, 07:52 AM
Plugged in my stats from our first Illidan kill:

EH: 60481.21
TDR: 80.18

Ciderhelm
04-24-2008, 01:40 PM
Please keep the responses coming! This is going to be pretty smooth once we get it up and running.

nares
04-25-2008, 10:57 AM
I've been tanking everything including felmyst now and my stats look like this (unbuffed!):

17.200 HP
20.036 Armor
31.76% dodge
23.36% parry

I could easily rise my avoidance, but this is enough to go through the first three Sunwell bosses while maintaining 20 expertise skill, because threat at Brutallus and Felmyst is very important. Note that you shouldn't be afraid of drinking Ironshield Pots on cooldown :)

Edit:

EH: 55327
Avoidance: 68.32
TDR: 90.16

unbuffed (Hey, when you first enter a new instance, you'll have to get all consumables you need anyway)

kawika
04-25-2008, 01:52 PM
I recently checked out: Be Imba! - the online Character Auditor for World of Warcraft (http://be.imba.hu/). It still seems to be a work in progress and not sure how relevant it is to the topic at hand. Possibly not much, and i actually like the idea of having some actual numbers.

Ciderhelm
04-25-2008, 04:42 PM
Be Imba is terrible for tanks.

Tatt
04-25-2008, 05:29 PM
Be imba also only updates like once every 3 months, it still has me in gear I started kara in, so hell maybe every 6 months :(

Galushi
04-25-2008, 05:35 PM
You know you can force an armory update, right?

Ciderhelm
04-25-2008, 05:47 PM
Be Imba is flat bad advice for tanks. 490 is not a cap, nor is Expertise capped at 5.6% reduction. It estimates what you can tank based on item level, not on actual stats.

Quoting their administrator when someone addressed them:

The cap is 5.6% against raid bosses, any more expertise above 5.6% is a wasted stat. Please see Expertise rating - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft (http://www.wowwiki.com/Formulas:Expertise) for more details.
After a whole series of complaints, the admin still hasn't changed his/her stance on it.

Aleriya
04-28-2008, 11:07 AM
Recently started MH/BT so it's still fresh in memory.
Stats were:

Mount Hyjal/Black Temple:
54,000 - 56,000 Effective Health
45% - 50% Avoidance

Seemed like a good ballpark estimate to start with.
[Edited for raid buffs]
Just to collaborate, I tanked the first three bosses in Hyjal with:

54500 EH
47% avoidance

TomHuxley
04-28-2008, 03:05 PM
Kara essentially on farm with EH of 37.5k and 46.6% avoidance unbuffed. I could still use a piece or two from Kara/badges, and while I'm strong enough to pull a weaker group through most of Kara, I couldn't get past Prince or Nightbane without a strong supporting cast. Also 1/2 in Gruuls as OT (need more DPS), haven't started ZA yet because we have a stronger warrior tank and a tankadin really helps in a few places as OT.

Ciderhelm
04-30-2008, 02:55 AM
Bumping this. I need more for T4/T5 content before I set up a chart or script.

Ray
04-30-2008, 03:50 AM
Hey Ciderhelm,

My Bear who has effectively tank all of T5 and ZA is sitting at 15.9K HP and 32K AC unbuffed. I have reached (fully raid buffed and flasked) 21K HP and Armor capped.

For Karazhan Bear tanking (assume 3 healers for progression) I would put it at 25K Armor and 17K HP Buffed for a Mal' Kill. For only using 2 healers (my usual setup) I would say 32K Armor and ~20K HP.

Avoidence (miss + dodge) "goals" (since it comes with gear anyways)

Kara: 35%

T5/ZA: 45%

These Values are buffed.

Crommi
04-30-2008, 03:58 AM
5/6 SSC, 3/4 TK and 1/5 MH with following stats (unbuffed)

16.000hp // 17.000 armor
50% Avoidance

I think I currently have highest EH of our tanks, bear included, so most of the fights can be done with less. As a sidenote, one of our prot warriors has ~55% avoidance and he is clearly struggling with threat. Edit: He's heavy on dodge and that's giving him some trouble

Edit: Good point bosephus, I didn't even know that armory stats are calculated against 70lvl.

Gaeldar
04-30-2008, 05:35 AM
Wow im actually sitting at 53088 EH, 48,97 avoidance and 83,02 TDR and im 0 in TK/SSC and 1 in ZA:P

Kavtor
04-30-2008, 07:59 AM
As a sidenote, one of our prot warriors has ~55% avoidance and he is clearly struggling with threat.

Avoidance doesn't have that much to do with threat unless you're also not wearing the appropriate hit / expertise gear. Avoidance keeps you from HS'ing, but you should be able to keep your GCD's going, which should be enough threat for anything less than T6 DPS. It's more likely a skill choice problem, or trying to tank trash in boss gear.

-----------

These are guesses, but it's roughly what I was wearing when we cleared T4 (Magtheridon) T5, and T6. Assuming regular raid buffs, but no ironshields. Obviously, EH and avoidance can change wildly on any given fight.

T4 - 42000 EH, 75% TDR (40% avoid)
T5 - 52000 EH 80% TDR (50% avoid)
T6 - 60000 EH 85% TDR (58% avoid)

Starting Kara for the first time, I was probably around (with 10 man buffs, L70 blues)
35000 EH 73% TDR (35% avoid)

atlantusSC
04-30-2008, 08:02 AM
Right now we are 4/6 SSC and 1/4 TK with Gruul/Mags/Kara on farm. We have not spent much time in ZA putting more stock in our 25 man raids. I MT with the following stats:

General Tanking Set: (unbuffed)
Health 16094
armor 16699
Def 499
Dodge 20.44%
Parry 17.19%
Block 28.26%

Translates into:
EH: 42013.18
TDR: 79.82%
Avoidance: 48.55%

I can go higher in my avoidance set and my threat set is not bad.

bosephus
04-30-2008, 08:13 AM
Sorry if I missed something, but are you all calculating EH against lvl 70 or 73? I have unbuffed 16.5k health (Tauren) and 16.7k armor. That is either 48,942 EH or 45,426 EH. Which one are you all using?

Either way, with less gear it isn't a problem to handle Void Reaver, Solarian, Al'ar, Lurker, or Tidewalker. That's all my guild has cleared in 25 man content so far. I've also fully cleared ZA with less.

atlantusSC
04-30-2008, 08:26 AM
For a raid boss you should use lvl 73. I believe it is the default on the calculator as well.

bosephus
04-30-2008, 08:34 AM
For a raid boss you should use lvl 73. I believe it is the default on the calculator as well.

I asked because I thought the armory signatures calculated against lvl70. I could be wrong, however.

Bullwrinkle
04-30-2008, 09:03 AM
I went thru and looked at my old warcrafter profiles, and came up with the numbers I had for my first clear thru Kara, the stats I tanked Lurker and Gruul with this first time. I could probably fish out more if you need filler. All of these are unbuffed, in the case of Kara, I had a fort each boss, along with kings/sanc when I did both NB and Prince the first time.

Kara (Full clear, didnt get any drops the first week but tanked it all)
EH: 37480.6
Avoidance: 31%
TDR: 72.04
*On a side note some of the raid vastly outgeared Kara, for the most parts alts in pvp gear, but I would still take that into consideration.

Two weeks later, tanking Lurker, one of the adds in FLK, Gruul and the first 3 bosses in ZA at something similar to this gear.
EH: 44994.9
Avoid: 29.4%
TDR: 73.48

Currently at 4/5 MH, 3/9 BT:
EH: 49714.06
Avoid: 33.6%
TDR: 75.38

Current buffed stats (This feels wrong to me, but this was with everything, imp Command, Imp Blood Pact, Imp MoTW, Imp Fort, Armor Potion, Armor Scroll, 30 stam food, Kings, Sanc, Flask)
EH: 78504.89
Avoid: 35
TDR: 79.40

Absinthium
04-30-2008, 09:31 AM
Tanking in Karazhan (8/10 - no nightbane/prince) with an entry level group (blues and Kara gear) with the exception of our ZA/Gruul's geared holy pally (thank goodness).

Health: 13044
Armor: 14770
EH: 32769.33
TDR: 74.85
Avoidance: 37.54%

Having trouble keeping aggro off some of our rogues, but they outgear me. Come on Kara. Drop some tank gear!

atlantusSC
04-30-2008, 10:00 AM
I asked because I thought the armory signatures calculated against lvl70. I could be wrong, however

Not sure about the armory sigs as I have yet to use them or check into them. I am no pro and could be wrong but I thought I read it some where.

Clifford
04-30-2008, 11:08 AM
Just started MH/BT - and haven't noticed any boss problems as MT.

Unbuffed
- 17.4K health unbuffed
- 18.2K armour
- EH: 52497
- Avoidance: 48%
- TDR: 82.75%

Diavolo
04-30-2008, 11:31 AM
My Guild has just started T6 content, with Winterchill dead so far. Tanked him last night with the following stats fully raid buffed with consumables(there was no issue at all with tanking him).

-22k HP
-23.3k Armor
-77566 EH
-54.97% Avoidence
-87.01 TDR

Juised
04-30-2008, 12:19 PM
Full Kara cleared as main tank.

Level 70 Tauren Warrior.

Unbuffed Stats

HP - 15061
Armor - 15057
Dodge - 17.45%
Parry - 15.84
Block Chance - 18%
Block Value - 304

Attack Power -708
Hit Rating -30
Crit Chance % -11.09
Expertise - 6

note ; signature is a bit outdated >_<

kachra
04-30-2008, 12:53 PM
Hey, I'm a pretty casual tank, and I pretty much learned how to tank by haunting your site and trying what worked and what didn't in game.

The only instance I clear regularly is ZA and I've only recently been comfortable doing the whole thing without consumables.

I can't check buffed stats right now, but unbuffed my stats are:

16.3k health
17.1k armor
45.3k EH
48% Avoidance
80.77% TDR

Naka
04-30-2008, 01:26 PM
Perhaps it should be clarified if avoidance includes chance to be missed or not. Cause some seem to just add up dodge+parry, but actually avoidance is of course dodge+parry+missed.

Keza
04-30-2008, 02:15 PM
I believe I had about 11k hit points the first time killing Prince in kara..seems too low tho, probably about 13-14k the first time I did HKM and Gruul, enh I don't remember how much armor and those stats are fully buffed.

Macksie
05-01-2008, 04:26 AM
I am casual tank in Kara but been lucky with drops so with full Kara clear I am on:

14k HP
15.8k Armor
42% avoidance

Unbuffed obviously but we always have different group setups so really differing stats with groups. I personally havent tanked Prince yet but our other prot tank has in basically same stats.

When I first went in I believe I was on about 12k HP, 13k Armor and 30% avoidance but only went up to Curator (also Aran but that isnt about tank stats).

Irenius
05-01-2008, 08:26 AM
Well I probably won't be able to tell you EH Values for Kara, ZA, SSC/TK but I can tell you in game stats.

Karazhan:
14,500 Health Unbuffed
45% Avoidance
14000 Armor

Zul'Aman:
15,500 Health Unbuffed
55% Avoidance
16,000 Armor

SSC/TK:
Same as ZA. (I use Lynx Boss as a good indicator if you're ready for Morogrim+)

Black Temple/Hyjal:(I haven't cleared much but I have successfully tanked both beginning bosses)
16200 Health Unbuffed
70% Avoidance
17500 Armor

MasterWolf
05-01-2008, 12:01 PM
Do you guys include miss chance in Avoidance? Or just Dodge + Parry?

Tatt
05-01-2008, 12:04 PM
Yeah, everyone seems to have a different definition of avoidance. 70&#37; seems unreachable for just dodge plus parry, but I guess go go avoidance tank :P

Shortypop
05-01-2008, 12:58 PM
Guild is 5/6 3/4 and 1 in MH. I've been OT'ing recently but dont think I'd have too many problems where we are atm, this is me in MT gear, so more dodge and slightly less hp than I can get to 16.8k in a nicely balanced stam set.

Stats (unbuffed) - I hit 21k fully (inc commanding shout) raidbuffed (with food etc):
hp: 16154
armour: 16957
dodge: 22
parry: 17
block rating: 28 (about 400 block value - this is a guess cos i cant get armory to show it, but if anything its higher)

EH: 44471.57

First time I went into Kara I was under 11k, I remember it cos all the guides recommended 11k, and I'd definitely go with that we had a hard time of it with a full group all pre-kara gear.

kawika
05-01-2008, 02:30 PM
finally got around to making my list. stats are estimated from old unbuffed values i kept track of.

unfortunately, i dont have much experience in the way of 25 mans except for gruuls.


Kara Entry:

13.2k HP buffed
13k AR buffed
270 block value
40&#37; Avoidance


Prince:

14.9k HP buffed
15.6k AR buffed
370 block value
47% Avoidance

HKM/Gruul

I was somewhere between Prince and ZA entry stats when we did this zone.


ZA Entry (Bear / Akilzon):

16.2k HP Buffed
16.4k AR Buffed
470 block value
42% Avoidance

Dubbleutyeff
05-01-2008, 05:31 PM
Armory sigs look like they're against Lvl 70 mobs, just subtract 1.8&#37; from the total for your Lvl 73 mob avoidance.

Jibou
05-02-2008, 07:52 AM
61408.03 EH and 82.00 TDR, along with 50.61% avoidance.

That's how I entered MH and BT, fully and completly and totally buffed. Most cases would be a bit lower than that.

Styopa
05-02-2008, 02:07 PM
I'm all blues, ~500 def in tank gear, ~51% avoidance =
12k armor
11k hp
...and I've OT'd Kara ONLY with exceptionally good healing, IMO.
I can handle all normal instances, and minor league heroics, but that's about it.

-Styopa, Eldre'Thalas

Scargoth
05-04-2008, 01:44 PM
First attempts on Illidan for my guild (didn't kill him yet).

These numbers are from my Tankpoints addon window on my character panel, I moused over for melee dmg reduction (all numbers against lvl 73 boss):

22764 health
20458 armor
71297 EH
12.52&#37; miss (553 defense)
33.17% dodge
20.65% parry
23.10% block (430 block value)
11 expertise
76 hit rating

I'm pretty sure I wrote down the armor value before I popped an Ironshield potion, so my actual EH would have been higher during the fight. When I set up my gear I erred on the side of having more EH/avoidance and less threat, after a night of pulls on him though I think am well above whatever the minimum EH/avoidance is for Illidan - I barely took any damage. I think for tonight's raid I will switch it up some to have more hit and expertise.

Wish us luck!

Ciderhelm
05-04-2008, 11:28 PM
I've been able to get a lot of good information, and will continue to do so, but PLEASE stop posting unbuffed stats.

For those of you who are posting raw values, please enter them here:
TankSpot - Calculator (http://www.tankspot.com/index.php?pageid=Calculator)

Thanks!

Esillymidget
05-05-2008, 12:15 AM
Gruul the Dragonkiller
53,000 Effective Health
45&#37; Avoidance

Used Warcrafter.net and reconstructed my gear from memory, oh it's fun to reminisce.
Edit: raid buffed btw.

Dubbleutyeff
05-05-2008, 02:53 PM
I think it's hard for some people to recall what their EH is buffed when they're not in raids. Here's some rough formulas for figuring out what your stats would be w/ Blessing of Kings, Gift of the Wild, Fortitude, Flask of Fortification, and Spicy Crawdad (I didn't throw an Imp, totems, short-term buffs, etc):

health_buff = ((((stamina+123)*1.1) - stamina)*10) + 500
armor_buff = ((((agility+14)*1.1) - agility)*2) + 340

Add those to your health and armor and throw them in the calculator

greendj27
05-06-2008, 07:00 AM
Is there any way to find my block value in the armory? I can't find it anywhere.

Corbusier
05-06-2008, 07:01 AM
Is there any way to find my block value in the armory? I can't find it anywhere.
Mouse over your block %.

greendj27
05-06-2008, 07:55 AM
Mouse over your block %.

All I see there is my block rating, not my block value.

Kazeyonoma
05-06-2008, 09:20 AM
You have to do it in game, the armory doesn't show it.

If you wanna do it through armory do this:

1) Take your Strength / 20 and add 1
2) Add up all your Shield Block Value bonuses from gear
3) Add your Block value from shield
4) Add up all of 1-3 together
5) if you have 10&#37; more sbv meta gem, multiply total from 4) by 1.4, if you don't have meta gem multiply total from 4) by 1.3
6)???
7) Profit.