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View Full Version : Should I go for the Expertise Hard Cap?



Kahmal
04-20-2008, 01:40 PM
I'm well over the soft cap, in the thirties (9% I think) in my TPS set, 74 hit rating, and around 600 SBV.

This is without the Shard. Is the Hard Cap worth it for a TPS set? After all I have a lot more to go until I'm soft hit capped.

Kavtor
04-21-2008, 09:40 PM
If you're worried about getting parry gibbed, then yes. If you're not that worried about getting parry gibbed, or maxing out your threat, maybe there are other stats you want to concentrate on. Really depends on the fight.

Bigstik
04-21-2008, 10:07 PM
After you hit the dodge cap, expertise becomes only half as valuable, making it slightly less valuable than hit. I'd say after the dodge cap, be sure that you're hit capped before continuing to stack on expertise. That said, it seems to me that you'd sacrifice a lot of actual tanking stat to reach the hard expertise cap for high-parry bosses. Granted, I don't know your progression level, so I can't be sure of that.

Kavtor
04-21-2008, 10:09 PM
Expertise is still more valuable than hit, because in addition to being a threat stat, it's a mitigation stat. Not making the boss parry on you is a good thing.

Bigstik
04-21-2008, 10:19 PM
Expertise is still more valuable than hit, because in addition to being a threat stat, it's a mitigation stat. Not making the boss parry on you is a good thing.

True, true. I wasn't thinking in terms of mitigation, being as that the OP was talking about near hit cap and on the expertise dodge cap. However, as previously stated, I don't know what his progression level is; those threat stats may be on his normal tanking gear.

Grakzul Slaughtbringer
04-22-2008, 01:35 AM
I can reach 36 expertise, in my threat set, with something like 90hit. I am satisfied with my TPS but I don't know how to improve my hit rating. We are on Kael'Thas now, is it possible to have a 142 hit set with SSC/TK stuff? Or should I improve my expertise, thus acting like hit since it contributes to remove parries?

Hanoumatoi
04-22-2008, 02:03 AM
Just a quick question, what are the soft and hard expertise caps?

byechee
04-22-2008, 09:18 AM
I can reach 36 expertise, in my threat set, with something like 90hit. I am satisfied with my TPS but I don't know how to improve my hit rating. We are on Kael'Thas now, is it possible to have a 142 hit set with SSC/TK stuff? Or should I improve my expertise, thus acting like hit since it contributes to remove parries?

there's a lot of tank gear in bt/hyjal with hit, and not much before that. t5 chest/glory of the defender, praetorian's legguards, myrmidon's treads, and band of the abyssal lord, all off the first few bosses from those instances.

Indris
04-23-2008, 01:13 AM
I can reach 36 expertise, in my threat set, with something like 90hit. I am satisfied with my TPS but I don't know how to improve my hit rating. We are on Kael'Thas now, is it possible to have a 142 hit set with SSC/TK stuff? Or should I improve my expertise, thus acting like hit since it contributes to remove parries?

Gemming some threat-based stuff out of your secondary set with +hit would be your best option. Also, Romulos Poison Vial is an awesome +hit item for a threat set.

Grakzul Slaughtbringer
04-23-2008, 02:00 AM
Gemming some threat-based stuff out of your secondary set with +hit would be your best option. Also, Romulos Poison Vial is an awesome +hit item for a threat set.

Yep, if only it would drop...I think I would have been exalted 2 or three times in Karazhan without looting the vial :(
Hanumatoi: Soft cap is 23 and Hard cap 46, assuming 6% dodge and 12% parry, but it is known that it can vary a lot, depending on the boss. These are average values (correct me if Im wrong)

duvar
04-23-2008, 10:21 AM
OTOH, removing too many parries reduces your rage generation. So again, it depends on the fight. If rage is already plentiful, then removing those extra parries is fine. If rage is not plentiful, you'll probably get more rage/time by letting him parry you 5% of the time. Especially if he hits fast.

Tanksinatra
04-23-2008, 11:30 AM
OTOH, removing too many parries reduces your rage generation. So again, it depends on the fight. If rage is already plentiful, then removing those extra parries is fine. If rage is not plentiful, you'll probably get more rage/time by letting him parry you 5% of the time. Especially if he hits fast.

I don't agree... intentionally allowing yourself to be parried thrashed for the extra rage generation is probably a bad idea.

For the most part bosses hit hard enough to fill up your rage bar quickly when the hits get through. If you are getting rage starved look into gear with less actual avoidance stats (parry, dodge, defense) and into those with higher "threat oriented" stats (block rating, block value, hit, expertise).

duvar
04-23-2008, 12:17 PM
That's why I said it depends on the fight. For some fights getting parried will hardly even be noticeable.


If you are getting rage starved look into gear with less actual avoidance stats (parry, dodge, defense) and into those with higher "threat oriented" stats (block rating, block value, hit, expertise).


I would turn this around to say that if you're NOT getting rage starved, work on becoming more efficient at making more of your attacks be heroic strikes. What you don't want is to ever hit Shield Slam, Devastate, or Revenge, and have there not be enough rage. Aside from that, you can be at 0 rage for your entire global cooldown if you want, as long as you have enough for your instant ability the second your cooldown comes up.

brain9h
04-24-2008, 07:06 AM
I'm getting great results stacking expertise. 102 expertise rating right now, and 163 hit rating (I know, past the cap)

Armstrong
04-24-2008, 01:41 PM
After you hit the dodge cap, expertise becomes only half as valuable, making it slightly less valuable than hit. I'd say after the dodge cap, be sure that you're hit capped before continuing to stack on expertise.

For the record, Expertise above the dodge cap increases your chances of landing an attack at exactly the same rate as Hit Rating. See here (http://www.wowwiki.com/Combat_Rating#Combat_skills).

The only differences are the reduction of incoming damage with Expertise versus the increased chance to land Taunt and Challenging Shout with Hit Rating.

duvar
04-24-2008, 02:25 PM
For the record, Expertise above the dodge cap increases your chances of landing an attack at exactly the same rate as Hit Rating. See here (http://www.wowwiki.com/Combat_Rating#Combat_skills).

The only differences are the reduction of incoming damage with Expertise versus the increased chance to land Taunt and Challenging Shout with Hit Rating.

I've actually been a little curious about this calculation because I've seen it mentioned in other places as well.

You need 4 points of expertise to reduce chance to dodge/parry by 1%, and 3.9 expertise rating for 1 point of expertise. So that's 15.6 expertise rating = you hit 1% more often.

The number quoted for hit rating, however, is 15.77 hit rating = 1% hit.

Is there a rounding error somewhere and they really are at a 1:1 ratio, or is 1 point of expertise rating actually like 1% more effective than 1 point of hit rating?

Armstrong
04-25-2008, 01:38 PM
I've actually been a little curious about this calculation because I've seen it mentioned in other places as well.

You need 4 points of expertise to reduce chance to dodge/parry by 1%, and 3.9 expertise rating for 1 point of expertise. So that's 15.6 expertise rating = you hit 1% more often.

The number quoted for hit rating, however, is 15.77 hit rating = 1% hit.

Is there a rounding error somewhere and they really are at a 1:1 ratio, or is 1 point of expertise rating actually like 1% more effective than 1 point of hit rating?

Scrolling back up every post in this thread I don't see any mention of the values 3.9, 15.6 or 15.77. Not sure where those are "quoted" from.

If you click on the wowwiki link in my previous post (here's the same link again (http://www.wowwiki.com/Combat_Rating#Combat_skills)), you can see that 1 Expertise Skill corresponds to 3.94 Expertise Rating @ L70. Four points of Expertise Skill are required to get 1% Dodge reduction and 1% Parry reduction, which equates to 15.76 Expertise Rating @ L70.

+1% Hit is also 15.76 Hit Rating @ L70.

duvar
04-25-2008, 02:38 PM
3.9 came from here: Expertise - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft (http://www.wowwiki.com/Expertise)
15.77 came from here: Hit - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft (http://www.wowwiki.com/Hit)
15.6 came from 3.9 * 4, since 1 expertise = .25% reduced chance for dodge/parry

I didn't reference them because those are numbers I had seen in general usage in other places as well, wasn't aware of the page you linked just now.

ebs2002
04-25-2008, 02:52 PM
Just wanted to respond (I'd quote, but it was on the first page and I figured it would have been corrected by now) to the hard/soft cap values.

Soft cap, or "dodge cap", is 23. A level 73 boss dodges at 5.6% (it's 5% base, with a 0.2% level modifier); there may be a few exceptions to this rule, but for the most part you can be sure this is correct. Expertise decreases the chance by 0.25% per point (no rounding). Therefore, you need 23 expertise, or 67 rating (with 3/3 defiance), or 48 rating (with 3/3 defiance AND orc/human racial bonus).

Hard cap, or "parry cap", has no real set value. Historically, parry chance is seen as anywhere between 10% and 15%, or sometimes even more random. One of the more common values given is that parry chance is double your dodge chance (base), plus the level modifier, which becomes 5% * 2 + 0.2% * 3 = 10.6%. To reach this, you need 43 expertise, or 146 rating (with 3/3 defiance), or 126-127 rating (with 3/3 defiance AND orc/human racial bonus).

However, I'm pretty sure that Blizzard uses boss parry as a tuning element. Increased parry chance:
1) Decreases warrior threat without decreasing other melee's DPS. It gives them a number to play with to make sure DPSers are paying attention to their threat.
2) Increases damage output and spike damage on the tank.
3) Gives warriors items that are clearly threat that they typically won't have to fight with a ret pal/fury war (likewise for druid tanks fighting with rogues/feral druids)

For these reasons, parry is often changed on a per-mob basis to give them more control over the exact melee input/output of a mob, and until we have a list of parry chances for every boss in the game, you can never have too much expertise.