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Bodasafa
04-15-2008, 10:46 AM
Ive done some comparisons over the time ive been tanking since kara. In kara I had around 20-22% dodge unbuffed with pocketwatch wich was my primary trink with GAB at the time.

Since leaving kara and moving on to VR,Hydross,Lurker wich we all just recently killed and having Gruul on Farm and Mag at 24% pre 2.4 I have had around 15-16% dodge.

I have noticed that with that 5% or so less dodge my threat has increased quite a bit.

I also now have 35 expertise wich is upping the threat.

Basically what im wondering is what is a good amout of dodge to have without gimping aggro gen but still having a decint amount of avoidance. Im looking for the middle ground here I guess.

On a related note I also just go the new Neck from Sun well exualted, im Aldor so I get the 100 dodge rating buff. Though the roughly 5% boost in dodge procs alot, im finding that I do more rage gen thru the Brooch from 2.3 badges. For trash Id say that the New Neck is worth it but for bosses meh. Mabye Prince for Phase 2 but thats about all i see it worth on the boss note so far.

Kazeyonoma
04-15-2008, 10:51 AM
don't just look at dodge, look at total avoidance.

there's no set # because everyone plays differently not to mention raid compositions change too but anything about 40% total miss/dodge/parry will carry you through t4 easily. try to get to about 45% for t5 and people argu anywhere from 50-60% for t6, but that scares me. There are plenty of tanks that tank in much higher or much lower than these "minimums" so just find your magic # and go with it.

Malignus
04-15-2008, 11:44 AM
For T4 you could actually push your combined dodge/parry/miss as low as 35% and be just fine. For T5 you'll want around 40-45% total. For most of BT/Hyjal you'll want 45-50% total, with trinkets to get you to the 55-60% range for the later bosses. For Sunwell you want as much as gear will offer due to the Sunwell Radiance buff on all the mobs.

Aelvain
04-15-2008, 11:41 PM
For Sunwell you want as much as gear will offer due to the Sunwell Radiance buff on all the mobs.

No, no, no, no, no the reason for stacking avoidance in Sunwell has nothing to do with Sunwell Radiance, and everything to do with stamina being useless compared to the benefits of avoidance in terms of increasing your chance of survival.

Anyway on topic, a tank group should have at least windfury or a feral druid, and with one or both of those you're not going to have enough avoidance to threat cap your dps. I run with high avoidance (70% +) in BT and the highest dps destro lock has not complained of threat constraints when I have either a feral druid or WF. Hell, I run with ~67% in ZA with a feral druid and WF and again he claims he's not constrained by threat at all on bosses.

Edit: Just noticed your expertise. I go hit capped and usually with less expertise than you have. With that kind of expertise at the t4-t5 level threat should not be an issue ever.

ebs2002
04-16-2008, 12:47 AM
My guess is that your threat has increased drastically because you've swapped in more threat stats in place of dodge (and not because your dodge has decreased). More dodge DOES mean your rage is more spotty and can lead to cases of rage starvation, but all other things being equal it doesn't hurt your long-term threat in and of itself (in other words, if they buffed a piece of your armor to add 1% more dodge and kept everything else the same, your threat wouldn't change much looking at the big picture).

I think the question you're really trying to ask is, how much threat is too much? There's no point spending threat itemization points if none of your DPS are threat-capped. To find that answer, just watch your threat meter and talk to the people who are highest on the list, and ask them if they ever have to hold back. If the answer is "no", then swap in some more avoidance or EH.

mcfuzz
04-19-2008, 05:08 AM
It depends on your content. for moving into ssc i would say you definetly dont want any less than 40 percent combined hard avoidacne, dodge/parry/miss(dont forget to add in the 5 percent base to whatever youre tooltip gives you when u hover over ur defense stat) and you may want as much as 45 percent or 50+ for certain encounters.

are you the MT? for many fights, Mag included, you may be more concerned with not dying than your ultimate threat. this is especially true as you first go through the content. the dps hasnt been geared up so thats not as much of an issue, and you havnt been geared up so dying is a real threat.

on mag, a crush will kill you.

remember, hard avoidance extends shield block charges. as you dodge an attack, you save the charge for the next one. 50 percent avoidance is good for mag and other hard tank fights. many of these fights also have the boss filling your rage bar with any hit such that you might not need to worry aobut getting rage starved.

as always, keep multiple sets. but i do think you are a little low on the avoidance, unless you ahve way more parry/miss for some odd reason.

Tedward
04-20-2008, 10:14 PM
We are working on the first half of t6 content now (4/5 4/9) and I have 53.49% hard avoidance in my main set gear. I really don't see how you can work with 70%+ avoidance.

Working on archimonde tonight I swapped out my slikk's cloak with a dodge enchant to make the healers life a little easier. I kept getting rage starve, and when i looked through my combat log after a few attempts I noticed avoidance streaks of 7-8 hits in a row. Some of these streaks were relatively close together.

So I swapped pepe's back in and switched out my khorium destroyer over the gorefiend gun. I also switched out the autoblocker for the vengeance card, as my lack of rage was gimping my threat, and I didn't see any boss parries in my log. The next attempt I got a streak of 13 hits avoided in a row, with a soul charge fully resisted in the middle. And that's AFTER I swapped a few pieces out for less avoidance.

When I look at upgrade options, they are all soaking with avoidance. How do I manage this?

standard gear setup:
The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Draenor&n=Tanksinatra)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/killthepoor187/archiavoid.jpg

Indris
04-22-2008, 02:46 AM
So what if you're rage starved on Archimonde, not like holding threat on him is hard. Truth is, the few fights where threat can become a major concern you can usually afford to wear extra threatgen gear - some dps piece, a threat neck, a better threat weapon, etc.

Any boss that is a danger to your survival should provide you with plenty of rage for sufficient threat generation, so you shouldn't worry about dodge 'nerfing' your threatgen too much.

Only hard hitters where threatgen due to spiky rage CAN be a problem, in my experience, are Teron Gorefiend and to some extent Illidan, but you can always stand a bit in a flame patch @ Illi if that ends up being an issue; and shout at your DPSers to hold back a bit on Teron, not like it's a big race or anything.

Bodasafa
04-22-2008, 07:04 AM
This is probably a stupid question and I think I know the answer but..

Dodge does not play into spells at all like say for example Shade in Kara. Dodge would be absolutly ussless right?

Really the only fight I swap out gear for max dodge is Prince in Kara. I throw on my old Barbed Choker from Maiden and The boots of Elusion from trash and the Pocket watch from Moroes.

Other than that particular fight for where I am now Raiding wich is early TK/SSC/MAG I gear for EH/Max Threat.

What other upcoming fights do I need a massive amount of Dodge that would significatly help?

If you want to check my armory its by the same name as the one I post with.

Kazeyonoma
04-22-2008, 09:10 AM
yep, dodge does nothing against spells.

Aelvain
04-22-2008, 02:35 PM
We are working on the first half of t6 content now (4/5 4/9) and I have 53.49% hard avoidance in my main set gear. I really don't see how you can work with 70%+ avoidance.

Working on archimonde tonight I swapped out my slikk's cloak with a dodge enchant to make the healers life a little easier. I kept getting rage starve, and when i looked through my combat log after a few attempts I noticed avoidance streaks of 7-8 hits in a row. Some of these streaks were relatively close together.

So I swapped pepe's back in and switched out my khorium destroyer over the gorefiend gun. I also switched out the autoblocker for the vengeance card, as my lack of rage was gimping my threat, and I didn't see any boss parries in my log. The next attempt I got a streak of 13 hits avoided in a row, with a soul charge fully resisted in the middle. And that's AFTER I swapped a few pieces out for less avoidance.

When I look at upgrade options, they are all soaking with avoidance. How do I manage this?

standard gear setup:
The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Draenor&n=Tanksinatra)


The chances of 13 avoided hits in a row occurring is extremely low I'm pretty sure, though I'm too lazy to go through the math. The bosses where avoidance is great won't offer threat problems, either due to dps being low or incoming rage being high...Archimonde fits both of those cases.

Hypatia
04-22-2008, 06:31 PM
The chance of 13 avoided hits in a row with 70% avoidance would be 9.69x10^-3 (0.00969, or just under one in one-hundred.)

Tedward
04-23-2008, 01:21 AM
The chance of 13 avoided hits in a row with 70% avoidance would be 9.69x10^-3 (0.00969, or just under one in one-hundred.)

Seems I was just stupidly unlucky then, especially with the fully resisted soul charge in the middle of it all.

After pondering the situation I think I agree with what has been said here. In those streaks I should simply be thankful that my healers have more breathing room to top off the raid.