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View Full Version : Wheres my blood pact



Foolishness
04-15-2008, 07:31 AM
HI there

My guild is currently working on vashj, kael, while having a little look at hyjal and BT.

Now heres the thing. Every raid i tank without blood pact. As far as the raid leader and warlocks are concerned. "if it comes down to an extra 800HP, its over anyway". Considering i spend so much time and effort raising my HP, i find this insulting, not to mention detrimental for the raid.

We have 3 dustruction warlocks, all of them refusing to use an imp. Am i wrong in thinking it is completely obsurd to not have a bloodpact in the maintank group, and possibly the 5% damage reduction debuff?

And its not only the maintank group. 3 imps would give 3/5 of the raid an extra 700 HP or more. We constantly have people die which i believe would not be so frequent if we had some more HP on the mages and priests.

I played a warlock for 2 years and i always had 3/3 improved bloodpact and was always in the maintank group to support the tanks.

Its also like trying to draw blood from a stone when the mages want a CoE, or when i want a CoA on a heavy fight for example tidewalker.

Have times changed?

Sleipner
04-15-2008, 07:46 AM
I'd say mostly ignorance. Some WL's don't know what a difference 70 stam can do for a tank. "It's just 700 HP's", they moan.

Lavache
04-15-2008, 07:48 AM
i cant get our warlocks to realize that the tanks having more than one healthstone (0/2, 1/2, 2/2 imp healthstone) is more beneficial than everyone in the raid having a healthstone (all at 2/2 imp healthstone.) its a selfish, selfish class now days...

phaze
04-15-2008, 07:52 AM
Every raid i tank without blood pact. As far as the raid leader and warlocks are concerned. "if it comes down to an extra 800HP, its over anyway". Considering i spend so much time and effort raising my HP, i find this insulting, not to mention detrimental for the raid.

If you're dying due to lack of max health, then Blood Pact will help. If you're not the cause of wipes, then it won't matter.



We have 3 dustruction warlocks, all of them refusing to use an imp. Am i wrong in thinking it is completely obsurd to not have a bloodpact in the maintank group, and possibly the 5% damage reduction debuff?

Sounds like they're 21/40, and sac'ing their Demon? They also won't have Shadow Embrace without a respec and regear to an Affliction build; I doubt you'll be able to talk them into switching just for that. ;)



3 imps would give 3/5 of the raid an extra 700 HP or more. We constantly have people die which i believe would not be so frequent if we had some more HP on the mages and priests.

Healer problem, not the Warlock's problem. ;)



Its also like trying to draw blood from a stone when the mages want a CoE, or when i want a CoA on a heavy fight for example tidewalker.

3 Warlocks should mean 3 good curses. Up to your raid group to decide if CoR is safe enough to use on a given fight; use it if your raid can handle it. The boost from CoE/CoS will beat out CoD, which in turn beats out CoA.

Up to your RL to get the Warlocks using the best curses for the job, though.

Fayre
04-15-2008, 07:59 AM
I think some of this comes down to the fact that the destro warlock spec with saccing is the defacto leader of damage nowadays. Having an imp out does put a large dent in dps for that warlock, and I'd personally never insist on a warlock outside the tank group having an imp. Do you truly not have a afflic lock with the utility build, at all? It surprises me. I think insisting on blood pact for every encounter would be a bit much - you have to balance out your survivability with the hit to raid damage. Sometimes you'll want blood pact, other times (say where an enrage timer is tight) you'll want every last measure of dps from your raid.

brain9h
04-15-2008, 08:58 AM
Do what's best for your guild, remember that no amount of DPS is ever enough, you could always have more.

My guild and I have stopped using blood pact, because I rarely if ever see my health going down and when it does I have a sound alert for it and pop last stand very fast. I honestly don't remember the last time I died because I lacked EH.

Recently we had trouble with our prot pally who is avoidance-based (low EH) dying to trash waves in Hyjal, so we started group stacking him for safety: Commanding shout, imp, devotion aura, tree of life and agility totem (Warrior, Lock, Pally, Druid and Shaman), worked well.

Kamani
04-28-2008, 12:00 AM
That lock doing 25% more damage is more important to me on most fights then having 1000 more health. I've seen all of SSC and TK and I say:

VR, Al'ar, Solar, Hydross, Lurker, Leo, Kara, Vashj, Kael: Sacrifice
Morogrim: Imp

With the age of welfare gear, tank death is never the problem anymore.

Barlic
04-28-2008, 07:13 AM
Not to mention destro locks do alot better dps on shorter trash fights then affliction, since their burst damage is higher via having a stronger spell coefficent to their shadowbolt, higher crit via talents and ruin (unless the affliction lock takes ruin instead of unstable affliction).

Secondly them killing their pet they are able to get a 15% damage bonus, which is something that is hard to pass up. Though downside is destro locks need healing so they can keep lifetapping either via pots, bandages or healers healing them, affliction tend to need it alot less.

P.S if the lock has imp imp, the bloodpact bonus is then 90 stam which makes it even nicer.

Lococard
04-29-2008, 05:41 AM
I'd say mostly ignorance. Some WL's don't know what a difference 70 stam can do for a tank. "It's just 700 HP's", they moan.


Warlocks say 700HP is nothing...


and i pay 50g for a 500HP flask.

shame.

orcstar
07-06-2008, 12:20 PM
In maintank group I can imagine an imp would be nice although if it's farming content it's better to have more dps because you should be able kill a boss without it and if you can, faster hence more dps is better so no imp.

In other groups there might be the rare occasion when survivability is far more important then raiddps then imps help.


What I see most though is that the people getting killed are always the same people. Why? Glass cannons. I think it's every raiders own responsibility to get about 7500 to 8k hp unbuffed. We had a priest running around with about 6, his healing was great.................if he was alive. If you're dead, you can't heal and can't dps. You can take 3 4k blasts at 9 k and only 2 at 8k (buffed) which seems to be an often by blizz used number for raiddamage: 4k or 8k.

So tell those people are always getting killed to get some more stamina instead of asking the warlock to give up a big chunk of his dps.

Ciderhelm
07-06-2008, 12:31 PM
Issues with curses and imp? Your Warlocks are worthless. You probably already know this, but if you have any say in recruitment, start working to replace them.

There's really no reason or excuse for an imp not to be available if you have 3 Warlocks. Every progression fight benefits from it. Let me repeat: Every progression fight benefits from it. There really aren't fights where, your first times through, you can sit back and say "well, I know I won't take this much damage, even if something unexpected comes up and a healer has to adjust to someone else."

Satrina
07-06-2008, 12:35 PM
If you have good healers, it's not much of an issue, though as Cider said every progression fight will benefit from it regardless.

Based on comments made by Foolishness in other threads about what gear he dies in, I am pretty sure the first step for that guild is a massive healer overhaul. An imp would at least be a bandaid in the meaintime.

clavarnway
07-06-2008, 12:41 PM
I am a 0/21/40 lock as my main. The tank is just a fun thing to do. And as a lock, if the RL wanted me to get my Imp instead of saccing the Succy, I would be very very VERY sad. Our job on raids is to DPS, and a 15% decrease in my DPS is HUGE. Not to mention me being in the tank group means I'm not in the caster group, which can include Moonkin Aura, Totem of Wrath/41 point one, Shadow Priest, BM hunter, or other things.

No 21/40 lock wants to be "that guy". Recruit a new Affliction lock or talk to all the locks and ask one of them to spec Affliction - but don't ask a 21/40 lock to not sac the Succy.

Ciderhelm
07-06-2008, 12:52 PM
I am a 0/21/40 lock as my main. The tank is just a fun thing to do. And as a lock, if the RL wanted me to get my Imp instead of saccing the Succy, I would be very very VERY sad. Our job on raids is to DPS, and a 15% decrease in my DPS is HUGE. Not to mention me being in the tank group means I'm not in the caster group, which can include Moonkin Aura, Totem of Wrath/41 point one, Shadow Priest, BM hunter, or other things.

No 21/40 lock wants to be "that guy". Recruit a new Affliction lock or talk to all the locks and ask one of them to spec Affliction - but don't ask a 21/40 lock to not sac the Succy.
Here's the situation. There are 3 Warlocks. We're learning a new fight, or on a fight where the tank takes substantial damage.

In my guild, this means one of the Warlocks pulls out an imp.

I don't care who that Warlock is, but one of them is going to do it. If that is best served with a respec, that means the Warlocks decide who's going to do that. If, after a few minutes waiting, an imp is not pulled out, a recruitment post goes up on the server forums and the guild recruitment forums.

I know that's rough, but a guild can't have tolerance for Warlocks who won't bring imps or apply curses for other classes. Things like COE are more flexible, sure, because there are situations where there are simply too few Mages to provide a net benefit. With imps, though, it sucks to lose a good chunk of personal damage, but frankly there aren't enough encounters that are strict DPS timers pre-Sunwell, and there are plenty of early deaths that could have been kills with just a bit more health.

orcstar
07-06-2008, 12:54 PM
No 21/40 lock wants to be "that guy". Recruit a new Affliction lock or talk to all the locks and ask one of them to spec Affliction - but don't ask a 21/40 lock to not sac the Succy.
Do you want to be the lock that gives up his raidspot for the new affliction recruit?
Raiding is a group effort, and a synergy, it's not about personal dps. There's no point in being at the top of the damagemeters if you don't kill the boss.

clavarnway
07-06-2008, 01:22 PM
Here's the situation. There are 3 Warlocks. We're learning a new fight, or on a fight where the tank takes substantial damage.

In my guild, this means one of the Warlocks pulls out an imp.

I don't care who that Warlock is, but one of them is going to do it. If that is best served with a respec, that means the Warlocks decide who's going to do that. If, after a few minutes waiting, an imp is not pulled out, a recruitment post goes up on the server forums and the guild recruitment forums.

I know that's rough, but a guild can't have tolerance for Warlocks who won't bring imps or apply curses for other classes. Things like COE are more flexible, sure, because there are situations where there are simply too few Mages to provide a net benefit. With imps, though, it sucks to lose a good chunk of personal damage, but frankly there aren't enough encounters that are strict DPS timers pre-Sunwell, and there are plenty of early deaths that could have been kills with just a bit more health.
I never said anything about the other curses - we regularly use COE/COR/COS. I have no problem being a curse bitch. But an imp bitch as a destruction lock is not cool - I would rather respec and fully gimp myself and buff the tank group with the Imp Blood Pact, rather than go wishy washy. But this ideally should be something that should be hashed out well in advance.

edit: And I think there is some confusion about what is meant. When I say imp bitch, I mean "I expect you in my group every night we are on new bosses".

In *that* case, yes, what I said above is true. If you want an imp bitch, have them go Affliction for full support mode. 21/40 and not saccing is a poor middle ground.

However on things like Bloodboil or whatever when you want the locks to get imps out to give some stam to the raid, but most of the night they can sac - then yeah, that's ok. I would stay Destruction.

I guess my point is that it feels quite bad to be Destruction and not be able to sac. Talk to them ahead of time so they know they will be an imp bitch.

Minya
07-06-2008, 05:59 PM
hum..

during the last ~6months of active raiding I had no imp in my group (where the other prot-warri and feral was in, too) because I just didn't need it.

800HP are nice to have but we tried to maximize aggro without losing avoidance,etcpp so we built the MT-group without a warlock.

If your casters die at Kael, in 99% its just their failure and not the fact, that they did not have an imp. And if a caster got hit by Thaladred the imp won't save their lifes.

For sure, to do the soak-tactic on Kael, the imp will help you out a bit but around 20k HP should be possible without an imp, and you really need DPS for that fight so let the locks use all the dps-buffs they can get to bring it to an end as quick as possible.

And this is viable for most of the bosses in TBC. ;)

Edit: To explain my intro:
I had the comfortable situation to get an enhancer to my MT-group, who was good at totem-twisting. In my opinion, this was more powerful than just 800HP from the imp. I could do more tps AND became less dmg in most cases.
Before I had my "personal enhancer" I instructed the locks to pull out their imp, too but in most cases wiping on a new boss was not because of tanks dying but of bad DPS and DPS dying.