PDA

View Full Version : DW Fury Guide - 5th Edition



Corbusier
04-14-2008, 10:17 PM
DW Fury Guide - 5th Edition

This guide is an update of Meeks' DW Fury Guide - 4th Edition, and is created and posted with both his input and consent. THIS GUIDE IS NOT FOR LEVELING WARRIORS, it is for RAIDING warriors or those who are interesting in raiding as a fury warrior. For leveling, see:
http://www.tankspot.com/forums/tankspot-library/35502-warrior-leveling-demystified.html and
Of Steel -- Guidelines for New & Leveling Warriors - TankSpot (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/tankspot-library/31970-steel-guidelines-new-leveling-warriors.html)

Fury FAQ - Fury for Dummies

Below you will find the most commonly asked questions regarding the fury spec, gearing strategy and damage rotations for a raiding fury warrior. If you seek more specific information, follow the table of contents below to find the appropriate section.


Why 17/44? Why not a weapon spec?
This is currently the gold standard for pure DPS:
WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Warrior -> Talent Calculator (http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/warrior/talents.html?tal=350003013020000000000000505000550 501205311510000000000000000000000)

Some of the early arms talent points are negotiable (Improved Thunderclap, Iron Will, Deflection - but I find that this build is quite nice for clutch offtanking) as is trading Unbridled Wrath for Improved Demoralizing Shout (which at least one DPS warrior or offtank in every raid should have).

DO NOT spec any farther into arms than Anger Management/Impale. The loss of extremely important deep fury talents is not worth the minimal gains from the weapon specs. It's been tried, tested and dusted literally dozens of times. Stop trying to make it work; it doesn't.

No, don't argue. Spec like I told you and everything will be ok...

How much hit?

NEVER EVER EVER EQUIP THE POISON VIAL
NEVER EVER EVER EQUIP THE POISON VIAL
NEVER EVER EVER EQUIP THE POISON VIAL

Short answer: as much as you need to maintain your DPS rotation while keeping Rampage & Battle Shout active (and Demoralizing shout if that's your job).

Long answer: You need 9% hit to not miss specials attacks (yellow damage) on raid level (or ??) bosses, which are treated as level 73 for all intents and purposes. You get 3% from precision, so you need 6% from gear. 1% hit is equal to 15.77 hit rating, therefore you need 95 hit rating to "soft cap". The hard cap for dual wielding is 28% against raid bosses, which equates to 442 hit rating (395 after 3/3 precision). This is not a goal to work towards or even worry about.

"but but but does that mean stop at 95 and don't get more +hit?"

NO. No. no. After the soft cap, hit is merely no longer your most important stat. Ignoring it altogether will cripple your rage generation.

"but i see all these fury warriors running around with 250 hit..."

They either don't know what they're doing, or are in T6 quality gear that naturally includes hit. They did not go out of their way (hopefully) to stack it at the expense of other stats.

"ok, so should i go ahead and gem for hit?"

If you're under 95, yes. Then again, if you don't have 95 hit just from gear, you probably have no business even speccing fury for raids.

"but you didn't tell me how much i need :("

Precisely.

Proper rotation?


The standard fury build has improved whirlwind. This allows you to make a solid skill rotation with blood thirst and whirlwind.

Seconds into fight:
0: BT
1.5: WW
3: Global cool down free
6: BT
7.5: Global cool down free
10.5: WW
12: BT
13.5: Global cool down free
15: Global cool down free
18: BT
19.5: WW

This allows you to use both abilities as they cool down. It also leaves some pauses to use a global cooldown on something else. Use these times to refresh Demoralizing Shout (if that's your job), Battle Shout or Rampage.

Assuming threat is not a concern use heroic strike if you go over 50 rage. (This threshold may change for those with two slow weapons, as sometimes it is best, depending on where you are in the cycle, to ensure that you have 55 rage for both a Bloodthirst and a Whirlwind.)

That's all there is to it, really. It's not rocket science, there is no magic.

What gear?

Ugh. Really? Seriously?

Fine. Use at your own risk, some are out of date.
Ahx's Pre-Kara Guide: WoW Forums -> Pre-Raid Fury Gearing - Lists Inside (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=5103776339&sid=1&pageNo=1)
Bloodwraith's Non-Raiding Guide: WoW Forums -> Non-Raiding DW Fury Gear List (2.3)(Closed) (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=945365456&sid=1)
Shakti's DW Fury Gear Guide: WoW Forums -> > DW Fury Gear List < (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=111711211&sid=1)

You can also try MaxDPS.com - Fury Warrior DPS Gear Rankings (http://maxdps.com/warrior/dps.php)
USE WITH CAUTION - SEE CAVEAT IN SECTION 7. ENCHANTS, GEAR & GEMMING FOR SPECIFICS.

Slow or fast Offhand?

Short answer: Use the best you have access to. I tend to value stats > DPS > speed.

Long answer: A slow offhand is the theoretical ideal, and has the highest theoretical DPS potential, assuming all other stats & DPS are equal. The slow mainhand/slow offhand combo takes some time to get used to, and it can be much more difficult to manage your rage. Rage is coming in bigger chunks but less often, and can leave you with too little rage to punch your instant attacks, or spike too high that you're sitting at 100 rage with no real dump other than Heroic Strike. Slow/slow also tends to favor a higher gear level, which has enough stats (crit/hit/haste) to smooth out the dips in incoming rage.

FASTER WEAPONS DO NOT GENERATE MORE RAGE THAN SLOW WEAPONS.
TOP END IS NOT A DPS STAT.

Slow or fast Mainhand?

Short answer: Slow. Always.

Long answer: Slow. Unless you're execute spamming. A slower weapon will hit harder on whirlwinds, and will result in larger, less frequent Heroic Strikes. Every Heroic Strike is accompanied by a static bonus threat (196) as well as bonus damage (176). A faster weapon will benefit more from Heroic Strike from a percentages point of view, since you're adding 176 damage more often. However, all that bonus threat adds up fast, and that's the last thing a DPS warrior needs.

TOP END IS NOT A DPS STAT.

What should I socket?

Short answer: Strength, unless the socket bonus is really worthwhile.

Long answer: Strength, unless the socket bonus is really worthwhile. Really. If you have a yellow socket with a nice bonus, put a crit/strength gem in it. Once you're into t5-t6 content and are pushing 4k AP raid-buffed, strength will be your priority stat. If you're in that content, you should be able to figure this out by now and don't need my help.

Your meta-gem should be a Relentless Earthstorm Diamond. This meta-gem requires 2 red, 2 yellow and 2 blue gems to be active, so you should have no more than 2 green/purple (crit/stam or strength/stam), since hybrid gems count as both colors. Try to choose the sockets with the best bonuses for these gems (i.e. a +4 strength bonus is obviously better than +3 crit or (shudder) +4 stamina).


Executioner/mongoose/potency?

Short answer: Executioner goes on your mainhand. Always. Put Mongoose or Potency on your offhand, depending on whether you need crit or AP more. Mongoose will scale better with gear in the long run.

Long Answer: Oh hey, there isn't one.

Fury for PvP?

Was gimping along with the expansion, finally murdered in 2.3 with the Deathwish/Sweeping Strikes and Imp. Intercept/Weapon Mastery swaps. It's fine for battlegrounds and casual PvP, but DO NOT expect to be competitive in serious ranked Arena matches.

Corbusier
04-14-2008, 10:17 PM
Table Of Contents

1. Talents
2. Stats
3. Attack Table
- Two Roll System for Specials?
4. Offhands
- Priorities
- Whirlwind damage
- Flurry & Synced Speed "Extra Attacks"
- The Effects of Sharpening Stones
5. Skill Rotation
6. Execute Range
7. Enchants, Gear & Gemming - Choosing Items
8. Haste, PPM, Rage & You
- Haste's effects on PPM enchants
- Haste & Rage Generation
9. Best Practices
- Consumables
- Cooldown Synergy
- Raid Preparation
- Awareness & Multi-Target Attacks
- Standing Behind the Boss
- Buffs/Debuffs
- Survival

1. TALENTS

In the Arms tree, you are building towards impale. Anger Management generates 20 rage per minute in combat, and slows rage decay when out of combat. Improved Heroic Strike is also standard since it becomes a mainstay of your damage. The other early Arms talents are primarily preference (though there is absolutely zero reason to spec into Improved Rend, DO NOT spec it). In the fury tree, most talents are obvious wins; Dual Wield Specialty, Improver Berserker Stance, Bloodthirst, Rampage, etc. Weapon Mastery, with its move to the Fury tree in Patch 2.3, has displaced Improved Execute. Improved Cleave is a waste in any build.

WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Warrior -> Talent Calculator (http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/warrior/talents.html?tal=350003013020000000000000505000550 501205311510000000000000000000000)

There are several reasons to give up Improved execute. For one when execute range hits, swap out your slow weapons for two fast ones to ensure that you are hitting Execute on every GCD. They will do a little less damage each time...105 pre mitigated...to be exact but the most important part is that you are able to use Execute.

The only option in the fury tree is Unbridled Wrath. If your raid is regularly using Curse of Recklessness, it may be worth trading UW for Improved Demoralizing shout, as this negates the majority of the boss's AP gain.

Corbusier
04-14-2008, 10:18 PM
2. STATS

IN GENERAL, stat priority is Strength > Crit > ArP > hit/haste (assuming you've achieved 9% hit already). This order obviously changes relative to your existing stats (i.e. at certain gear levels, crit & ArP begin to outpace strength). The most important thing to understand about stats is balance, balance, balance. An increase in one stat makes all the others that much more valuable.

- Strength

The bread & butter of fury DPS.

Attack power - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft (http://www.wowwiki.com/Attack_power)

Attack Power (AP) increases your base DPS by 1 for every 14 attack power. For example, an AP of 28 will give you 2 DPS. To convert DPS into average damage per swing: (Weapon DPS + AP/14) * Weapon Speed. If dual wielding, an off-hand weapon will also receive DPS from AP with the normal damage penalty. Disregarding dual wield specialization talents, the offhand damage is then: [(Weapon DPS + AP/14) * Weapon Speed]/2.

DPS Warrior Compendium - Elitist Jerks (http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t22705-dps_warrior_compendium/)


The list of weapon normalization speeds is:

* Daggers: 1.7
* One-Hand Weapons: 2.4
* Two-Hand Weapons: 3.3
* Ranged Weapons: 2.8


The formula therefore after 1.8 is:

normalized_damage = base_weapon_damage + (X * Attack Power / 14)

where X is the listed value for the specific weapon type. While the normalization of Attack Power greatly reduced the impact of having a slow weapon for instant attacks, slower same-dps weapons still produce a slight dps increase for instant attacks. This is because a weapon with 100 dps and a fast attack speed has a relatively low damage range, while a 100 dps weapon with a slow attack speed has a higher damage range. Therefore the increase in base weapon damage used in the formula makes the slower weapon come out slightly on top. In short: instant attacks still benefit from slow weapons, just the difference is not as large as it once was.

With these formulae we can then determine that for every 10 strength (20ap) we will see a DPS increase of 1.43 for the mainhand, .89 for the offhand (both raw white damage, not including crits & special attacks) and 1.5 for Bloodthirst (BT damage per second = .45xAPx[attacks per minute]/60) assuming you are able to hit Bloodthirst every 6 seconds.

- Hit

Most of the information in this & the following section came from:
Working Theories of Theorycrafting as of 2.3 - Elitist Jerks (http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t18865-working_theories_theorycrafting_2_3_a/)
Blessing of Kings: +Hit Caps for Bosses (http://blessingofkings.blogspot.com/2007/07/hit-caps-for-bosses.html)
Weapon skill - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft (http://www.wowwiki.com/Formulas:Weapon_Skill#Chance_to_Hit)
http://www.tankspot.com/forums/tankspot-library/36361-guide-hit-rating-spell-hit-expertise.html


Base Melee Miss (Dual-Wielding): 28%
Base Melee Miss (2H/1H+Shield/Special Attacks): 9%
Hit % = hit rating / 15.77

These following statements are assuming your target is a raid boss. If a mob/player is your level the miss rate is 5% for special and 24% for normal attacks (5% base miss chance + 19% miss dual wielding penalty).

While dual wielding your white attacks will have a 28% chance to miss on both mainhand and offhand. Your special attacks still have a 9% chance to miss. This means that if you have precision you will want to stack hit until you reach 95 hit rating which will mean you will not miss a special attack.

It is important to note that after 9% hit, more +hit ONLY affects white (normal) attacks. The typical fury warrior will see 36-44% of his damage coming from white attacks. The implication is that more hit only affects 36-44% of your damage, while crit and strength affect ALL damage. (This is simplified of course, but illustrates the point well enough.)

- Expertise


Since a boss-mob is calculated as level 73 mob its dodge is increased by 3*0.5% = 1.5% up to 6.5%. To negate 6.5% dodge, 26 points of expertise or 103 points of expertise rating are needed.

++++Expertise rounds down. Partial amounts of Expertise do nothing.++++

Base Melee Dodge: 6.5%
1 Expertise = expertise rating / 3.95
1 Expertise = -0.25% Dodge and -0.25% Parry

When you reach 103 expertise rating, your attacks will never be dodged. Melee attacks can still miss. If you reach both your hit rating cap and 103 expertise, your melee attacks will never miss or be dodged.

The following is the amount of expertise rating you need to minimize dodges for raid boss fights, depending on your talents, and disregarding racial expertise.

Base: 103
w/ Defiance: 80
w/ Weapon Mastery: 88
w/ Defiance + Weapon Mastery: 64

It is worth noting that expertise is quite a valuable stat relative to hit. After 9% hit, you've capped for specials, and more hit will no longer affect your yellow damage, yet expertise will until that is capped.

- Crit

Critical Strike is a multi-faceted stat, and a very important one for fury warriors. It helps do more damage, generate more rage, it procs & refreshes flurry (which in turn does more damage & generates more rage) and allows Rampage to be activated & refreshed. Ignoring it will cripple your DPS; stacking it at the expense of strength/AP will make you hit like a wet noodle. It is best to seek a balance between crit and AP.


Contrary to popular belief, 33.33% crit will NOT guarantee 100% flurry uptime, far from it.

1 - ( 1 - c ) ^ x

Where 'c' is your Crit chance expressed in decimal (i.e: 35% crit = 0.35) and 'x' is the number of attacks made in one cycle of Flurry (3 from auto attack swings, and generally one additional from instant attacks; 4 is a commonly used number).

Example: 35% crit yields

1 - ( 1 - 0.35 ) ^ 4 = 0.8215 which translates to 82.15% Flurry up-time.

Crit past 33% will of course increase your Flurry uptime, any amount of Crit under 100% (or the crit cap) is less than 100% Flurry up-time, and therefore additional Crit will increase your up-time. It is important to note that while additional Crit will increase Flurry up-time, it is subject to diminishing returns. The amount of Flurry up-time gained going for 1% crit to 11% crit is much greater than going from 40% to 50% (in both cases an increase in 10% Crit chance).

- Armor Penetration

Short answer: Armor penetration is good!

Long answer: Most of the hard data is going to come from a thread at the Elitist Jerks forums:
Boss armor values:
[RAID] Boss armor values - Elitist Jerks (http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t16629-raid_boss_armor_values/)
ArP Spreadsheet:
Google Docs - Armor Penetration Analysis (http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=p-p2GoLIggc7xJFZegWVhDA)
Neat graph for the math impaired:
Image:Armor.JPG - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft (http://www.wowwiki.com/Image:Armor.JPG)
Babgelbite's ArP Calculator:
World Of Warcraft Armor Penetration Damage Increase Calculator (http://rehfeld.us/wow/armor-penetration.html)



Armor reduction of a level 73 boss attacked by a level 70 player is 37% for 6200 armor, and 42.17% for 7700 armor. Sunder Armor x5 is -2600 armor, Faerie Fire is -610, and Curse of Recklessness is -800.

For a boss with 6200/7700 armor, SA x5 gives a damage increase of 18.36%/16.61%.

If we assume now that the boss has SA stacked x5 on it, adding just FF gives a further 4.5%/4.05% increase, CoR gives 5.99%/5.38%, and with both on they give 11.06%/9.9% increase over just SA.

Armor Penetration is a bit more complex because it comes in varied amounts. If the boss has just SA x5 on it, then the effect of ArP is as follows:
100 ArP: 0.71%/0.64%
200 ArP: 1.43%/1.29%
300 ArP: 2.16%/1.95%
400 ArP: 2.91%/2.62%
500 ArP: 3.66%/3.3%

For a fully debuffed boss (SA x5, FF, CoR) the increase from ArP is:
100 ArP: 0.79%/0.71%
200 ArP: 1.59%/1.42%
300 ArP: 2.41%/2.15%
400 ArP: 3.24%/2.89%
500 ArP: 4.08%/3.64%

As you can see the higher your armor penetration gets the more valuable each point of it becomes. It is an incredible stat in that it is the only one that scales with itself AND with other stats. Now I would be careful before making the plunge into armor penetration if you are not ready for it. It used to only be in BT/Hyjal making it impossible to stack it until you were ready for it. As of patch 2.3, with the new badge & arena gear it is easier to collect before you can truly support it. (However, much of the badge gear is poorly itemized, use with caution.)

At some point in gear level in may be beneficial to have a different gear set for bosses with 6200 armor versus those with 7700. A 6200 armor boss with full raid debuffs (Sunders, Faerie Fire and Curse of Recklessness) is left with 2190 armor. Add Executioner to that, and you're left with 1350 armor. Add in the proc effect from Madness of the Betrayer and you're left with 1050 armor. This is the effective "Armor Penetration Cap", as no more ArP will result in more damage*. Both 1350 and 1050 ArP are achievable currently, and the new Sunwell gear is loaded with this stat, so it is likely that you will accumulate enough ArP to "cap" on 6200 armor bosses if you have access to this content. In the event that you do, it may be wise to reevaluate your gear choices per boss, and adjust accordingly.

* After you hit 1350 (for the 6200 armor bosses) static ArP, you start cutting into the value of your Executioner enchant. For instance, if you see 40% uptime, every point of ArP past 1350 loses 40% of its value.

3. ATTACK TABLE



A little explanation about how the hits & misses work with both white and yellow attacks. The consensus at this point is that yellow attacks are on a 2-roll system, but white attacks still rely on a single roll (except for hunter's, who's ranged attacks seem to all follow the 2-roll system afaik).


Whenever an attack is made (both white damage and specials), the following can happen:
MISS
DODGE
PARRY
BLOCK
GLANCING
HIT
CRIT
(Parry/Dodge/Glancing are Melee Only)
(Glancing is White Damage Only and Applies 70% of Normal Damage))

The above all have a chance to happen, based on your and your target's stats.
Base miss rate against an equal leveled target is 5%.
Against a mob 3 levels higher than you (which is what a boss is considered to be), your miss rate is 9% or 28% if Dual Wielding.
Glancing Hits are a static 24%.
Dodged attacks are 6.5%.

With ranged attacks, there is no 1% chance to miss that cannot be negated. This is a rumor, and is incorrect. Spells always have a 1% chance to be resisted, melee/ranged attacks do not.


Ok, let's deal with your regular white melee hits (non-special attacks). Let's go with 0 hit 0 expertise and 30% crit and attacking from behind to remove parries and blocks. White attacks work on a 1-roll table that looks like this:


Dual Wielding (Druids, Hunters and Single/Two-Handed attacks are 9% Miss Rate - Hunters are on the 2-Roll System following this)

* 1-Roll Table
1-28...: 28% Miss
29-35..: 6.5% Dodge
36-59..: 24% Glancing
60-89..: 30% Crit
90-100: 11.5% Hit


Based on these numbers, you're still hard crit capped at 30%. You'd need an additional 11.5% crit for your complete lack of hit rating and expertise to start affecting your crit hits (once you reach 41.5% Crit, you theoretically push HITS off the table and all the misses you experience at this point are missed crits). So right now, adding +hit and +expertise only increases your white "hits", not your crit.

One of the popular arguments for stacking hit is people tell you that the more you hit the more you crit. As much as that sounds like it makes sense it is not how the WoW combat system works. Wow uses an attack table. Attack table - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft (http://www.wowwiki.com/Attack_table)

This means is that there is a 100 sided die that blizzard rolls every time you attack. Say you have 0 hit and 41% crit and are attacking from behind.

Here are the sides of the die:
1-28: Miss
29-53: Glancing Blow
53-58: Dodge
59-100: Crit

In this circumstance every time you hit it will crit. Crit shares the hit table with non crits so as long as your crit is less than miss + glancing + dodge then adding hit will have no effect on your crit. Now if your crit was above 41% which is possible with raid buffs and mongoose procs then you would be losing crits in this situation. However one will never have 0 hit. Assuming then the minimum 9% hit for your yellows not to miss you can safely stack crit to 51% without losing any benefit. From here on every 1% hit increases your crit cap by 1%.

- Two-Roll System for Specials?

After poring over dozens of WWS reports and combatlogs, I have yet to see any evidence supporting a two-roll system for special attacks in PvE, apart from this thread:
Backstab: Two Rolls? - Elitist Jerks (http://elitistjerks.com/f33/t9104-backstab_two_rolls/)
Bear in mind that this thread was created in November of 2006, and the testing methodology is not especially rigorous. I personally have not had the time nor opportunity to properly test this, as I would need to drop my hit rating and boost my crit rating to such a point that it would become unfeasible in a raid setting.

However, I do not discount the possibility of a two-roll system for specials out of hand, but would like to point out that from a programming standpoint, it is much more efficient to have one one-roll system than two different systems operating simultaneously. Therefore, it is unlikely that this is the case.

Corbusier
04-14-2008, 10:18 PM
4. OFFHANDS

- Priorities

Your offhand accounts for a relatively small percentage of your DPS (due to the offhand damage modifier, which is .5 before talents and .625 after talents), so the weapon's damage itself is less important than its contribution to your overall damage. What that means is that the stats on the weapon tend to be more important than either the DPS or the speed. Take The Decapitator for instance. The DPS alone makes it a decent mainhand, but the poor stats make it an equally poor offhand compared to, say Fool's Bane, which has slightly lower DPS but much better stats.

- Whirlwind damage

The primary argument for slow offhands is the extra Whirlwind damage (since equal DPS weapons will have identical white damage over time). Let us assume that we have a choice between Vanir's Left Fist of Brutality and Vanir's Left Fist of Savagery, since they have identical DPS and stats apart from speed & damage range.

average_normalized_damage = average_base_weapon_damage + (X * Attack Power / 14)

Let's assume 3000 AP.

Slow: x = 257.5 + (2.4 * 3000/14) = 771.2
Fast: x = 154.5 + (2.4 * 3000/14) = 668.8

Now if we apply the offhand damage penalty we get:

Slow = 482 average damage
Fast = 418 average damage

Ideally, you can Whirlwind every 9 seconds or 6.67 times per minute.

Slow = 3215.94 damage/minute = 53.58 dps
Fast = 2788.06 damage/minute = 46.47 dps

The DPS difference turns out to be only 7.11.


- Flurry & Synced Speed "Extra Attacks"

I was highly skeptical of this particular "bug" for quite some time. I finally got a chance to test it when the new fist weapons were released in patch 2.4. It appears that you do often get four flurry "charges" instead of three, but never two. Now, I do not recommend gearing exclusively in an attempt to exploit this bug, however, the extra attacks are worthy to consider when seeking weapon upgrades.

- The Effects of Sharpening Stones

Sharpening stones with +damage (such as Adamantite Sharpening Stone added to the offhand favor faster weapons, as these weapons hit more often in a given period of time. Take our previous example of the new fists:

1.5 speed weapon hits 40 times/minute
2.5 speed weapon hits 24 times/minute

40 x 12 damage = 480 damage/min = 8dps
24 x 12 damage = 288 damage/min = 4.8 dps

The damage added to Whirlwind and other instant attacks will be the same no matter what speed the weapon is.

*Also of note: the +damage of the sharpening stone is added to both weapons, no matter which it is applied to. For example, if you had an adamantite stone on just your offhand, you would see 12 additional damage to both MH and OH attacks. If you had stones on both weapons, you would see 24 additional damage to both MH and OH attacks. This additional damage also applies to non-weapon-damage based attacks such as Bloodthirst and Execute.


5. SKILL ROTATION


Seconds into fight:
0: BT
1.5: WW
3: Global cool down free
6: BT
7.5: Global cool down free
10.5: WW
12: BT
13.5: Global cool down free
15: Global cool down free
18: BT
19.5: WW

- Heroic Strike vs. Cleave
Heroic strike and cleave are the two contenders for a rage dump for fury warriors. They both have bonus damage, are not on the global cooldown, and both turn a white attack into a yellow attack. This means that an attack that would have had a 28&#37; chance to miss, 25% to be a glancing blow, and only crit for 2x damage now becomes a yellow attack. It only has the base 8% miss, no glancing and 2.2 crit from impale. They both also have bonus threat.

In an effort to try to lower their threat people have been floating the idea of using cleave instead of heroic strike. This is a matter of confusion due to blizzard listing on Heroic Strike’s tooltip that it has bonus threat, but no similar note for Cleave. But you should know better than to believe something on Blizzard’s tooltips. (Blood Frenzy and melee/physical damage anyone?)

Heroic Strike - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft (http://www.wowwiki.com/Heroic_Strike)
Cleave - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft (http://www.wowwiki.com/Cleave)

Heroic strike adds 176 damage for 196 threat. That is 1.1 threat per bonus damage.
Cleave adds 70 damage for 130 bonus threat. That is 1.8 threat per bonus damage.

Something worth noting however is that if cleave hit two targets the bonus threat is split between the two making it preferable threat wise if you have a second target to hit.


- Should Hamstring be a part of my skill rotation?

Before the Windfury nerf Hamstring used to be a vital part of your skill rotation because it could proc a Windfury attack. Now that it no longer procs Windfury it is less clear whether or not to use it. Hamstring can crit and proc flurry, and it can proc enchants and haste procs. Hamstring also has 181 bonus threat per use. In the end it is up to you. If you have the rage and you are good on threat feel free to use a global cool down on a hamstring. Generally speaking I will use Heroic strike before I use Hamstring. This is because they both have the same amount of bonus threat and I generally feel heroic strike will add more damage. This is really up to personal opinion though.

6. EXECUTE RANGE

- Enchants & Weapon Choices

Executioner MH and Mongoose OH are still your best options for your execute weapons, as crit & ArP are the only stats available that allows your Execute damage to scale, and the haste & crit from Mongoose can help generate a little extra rage.

For Execute range, it is recommended that you equip two fast weapons (1.5 speed or faster) so that you are able to punch Execute on every available cooldown. Daggers with these stats are acceptable, as Execute is not normalized nor is it based on weapon damage. Look for items with haste, crit, hit & armor ignore, as AP is not factored into Execute damage.

It is highly advisable that you NOT substitute fast weapons that are substantially lower DPS than your regular MH/OH, as this can actually result in less DPS.

- Adding Bloodthirst to the Rotation:
The math on Execute vs Bloodthirst:
30 rage Execute: 925 + 21*15 = 1240
30 rage Execute w/ t6 2 peice: 925 + 21*18 = 1303

Bloodthirst does damage equivalent to 45% of your AP.
You need 2756 AP(raid buffed) for your Bloodthirst to be equal to a 30 rage execute without T6 2 piece.
You need 2896 AP(raid buffed) for your Bloodthirst to be equal to a 30 rage execute with T6 2 piece.

With 3 blessings and Rampage and an Enhancement Shaman you will have those numbers no matter how bad your gear is.
If you are really undergeared, in Karazhan, with only 1 blessing and no Enhancement Shaman then Execute might be preferable.

Conclusion: If you are executing and BT is lit up, hit it.

The only question at this point is whether its worth it to save rage for BT but most likely not, because of flurry.

Corbusier
04-14-2008, 10:18 PM
7. ENCHANTS, GEAR & GEMMING - CHOOSING ITEMS

Much of this section is lifted from the Elitist Jerks Thread - DPS Warrior Compendium - Elitist Jerks (http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t22705-dps_warrior_compendium/)

- Choosing Items

The highest i-level item is typically the highest DPS item, no matter if it has ideal stats or not (i.e. the badge shoulders having higher DPS than t4/ragesteel). Upgrades in i-lvl will thusly be upgrades in DPS. Most often you do not have a choice between items with similar quantities of different stats, so this rule of thumb suffices for the most part.

The way item budgets work is that the more of one stat you have the less total budgets the items gets. This means that items that have a variety of stats will have more overall stats allocated. Items with hit/crit/str together are generally better items then just str/crit. Find gear with balanced stats when you can and use this to keep your hit rating high. Then gem for str/crit in these items.

It is also important to note that the lower your level of gear the more effective str is. If you are just starting to gear up STR is by far your best stat. As your gear improves the value of crit will rise and at certain levels of raid buffs even marginally pass str. This means that for very low levels of gear stick to +8 str but as you improve you can phase in 4str/4crit gems to finish socket bonuses.

A good place to go to in order to find the relative value of each stat for your current level of gear is:

[Warrior] Fury DPS Spreadsheet for 2.4 - Elitist Jerks (http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t23083-warrior_fury_dps_spreadsheet_2_4_a/)

You can also try:
MaxDPS.com - Fury Warrior DPS Gear Rankings (http://maxdps.com/warrior/dps.php)
blavigne Profile, blavigne Details - FileFront.com (http://hosted.filefront.com/blavigne/)

Use at your own risk.

The spreadsheet is not meant to be an absolute guide. It is in fact quite flawed, especially when it comes to predicting the rage-->damage ratio. I link this post because there is very good discussion throughout and it is an incredible resource for posting specific item questions and getting reasonable answers. Even when working the spreadsheet is no more then a rough guide. Use it with caution.

Here you can enter your gear and get a rough value of how useful a single point of str, hit, and crit is for you right now.


On Maxdps:
It has its usefulness, but also serious flaws. It is terrible at modeling rage, bad at ranking weapons and trinkets & proc effects. Inputting extreme values of certain stats (i.e. very low crit) tends to throw off whatever algorithm is at work, and it's also bad at knowing when you are soft or hard hit-capped.

However, for other gear I have found it to be fairly accurate and close to the other spreadsheets as far as ranking non-weapon, non-trinket items, so long as you input your raid-buffed stats. Use it with caution.

The EJ spreadsheet is still the one I have found to be most accurate according to my in-game testing.

For the love of all that is good on this earth I am not advocating staying at 100 hit and never increasing it from there. All I am saying is to stop stacking it ahead of str/crit. Hit is still a very good stat and one you will need. Just use it in moderation.



- Gemming


* Relentless Earthstorm Diamond: 3&#37; Increased Critical Strike damage, 12 Agility. 2 of each gem color. (Meta)
* Bold Living Ruby: 8 Strength (Red)
* Inscribed Noble Topaz: 4 Strength, 4 Crit Rating (Orange)
* Sovereign Nightseye: 4 Strength, 6 Stamina (Purple)
* Jagged Talasite: 4 Crit Rating, 6 Stamina (Green)
* Smooth Dawnstone: 8 Crit Rating (Yellow)

You should maintain just enough Blue/Yellow/Red gems to have a working meta gem. Purple/Orange/Green gems work as either of their two component colors. i.e: Purple can count as Red or Blue. The Relentless Earthstorm Diamond will always yield the highest dps of the meta gems currently available.

- Enchants

* Enchant Bracer: Brawn - Enchant Bracer - Brawn - Items - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=35420)
* Enchant Gloves: Major Strength - Enchant Gloves - Major Strength - Items - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=35442)
* Enchant Boots: Dexterity - Enchant Boots - Dexterity - Items - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=35400)
* Enchant Boots: Cat's Swiftness - Enchant Boots - Cat's Swiftness - Items - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=35399)
* Enchant Boots: Surefooted - Enchant Boots - Surefooted - Items - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=35418)
* Enchant Cloak: Greater Agility - Enchant Cloak - Greater Agility - Items - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=35432)
* Enchant Chest: Exceptional Stats - Enchant Chest - Enchant Chest - Exceptional Stats - Items - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=35429)
* Enchant Weapon: Potency - Enchant Weapon - Potency - Items - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=35459)
* Enchant Weapon: Mongoose - Enchant Weapon - Mongoose - Enchant Weapon - Mongoose - Items - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=35458)
* Enchant Weapon: Executioner - Enchant Weapon - Executioner - Enchant Weapon - Executioner - Spells - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=42974)
* Glyph of Ferocity - Glyph of Ferocity - Glyph of Ferocity - Items - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=29192)
* Cobrahide Leg Armor - Cobrahide Leg Armor - Cobrahide Leg Armor - Items - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=29533)
* Nethercobra Leg Armor - Nethercobra Leg Armor - Nethercobra Leg Armor - Items - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=29535)
* Greater Inscription of Vengeance - Greater Inscription of Vengeance - Greater Inscription of Vengeance - Items - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=28888)
* Greater Inscription of the Blade - Greater Inscription of the Blade - Greater Inscription of the Blade - Items - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=28910)

- Runspeed? Really?

The following is from the Enhancement Shaman theorycraft threat over at EJ:
Shaman: Enhancement - Elitist Jerks (http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t20765-shaman_enhancement/)
Yes, it's for shaman, but the math is the same and we can use apply it to warrior DPS just fine.


Agility vs Run Speed for Boots
For PvE, either Boar's Speed or Cat's Swiftness are going to be big payoffs. Increased run speed is hands down the best enchant you can get for PvE. Derivation:
Let D be your dps without a boot enchant. For the run speed to provide more benefit, we need:
(D+12A)(T-t) < (D+6A)(T-t/1.08)
which simplifies to
T < [(1-k)D + (2-k)6A]t/(6A)
where k = 1/1.08. For example, gives A = .16286, and so we have
T < (.07581D + 1.074) t
Using some actual data, a shaman that does betwen 900 and 1000 dps will have T < 76.88t
For 5 minutes, we would need t > 3.90 seconds and for 6 minutes we would need t > 4.68 seconds.
So for a 5 minute fight if you spend roughly 4 seconds moving between adds, running to the boss, etc, Run Speed provides a superior DPS benefit.

Caveat: Runspeed is situational. Currently the most DPS intensive fight in the game, Brutallus, involves little to no movement, so a runspeed enchant would be wasted.

Corbusier
04-14-2008, 10:19 PM
8. HASTE

[Mechanic Primer] - Haste - How it works, and what that means. - Elitist Jerks (http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t12882-mechanic_primer_-_haste_-_how_works_what_means/)


The formula for determining hasted weapon speed is:

Hasted Speed = Weapon Speed / ( (1+(Haste 1 &#37;/100)) * (1+(Haste 2 %/100)) * (1+(((Haste Rating 1 + Haste Rating 2 + ... )/100)/15.7)) )

Example: Beast Master Hunter
Bow Speed / Serpents Swiftness * Quiver Speed * haste from added up haste ratings
3.0 / ( (1+(20%/100)) * (1+(15%/100)) * (1+((30+45+25)/1570)) )
3.0 / (1.20*1.15*1.064) = 3.0 / 1.468 = 2.04 sec. attack speed.

- Haste & Rage Generation

It has been thought for some time that the rage generation formula used the "hasted" weapon speed instead of the "base" weapon speed to determine the rage-per-hit, or used a normalization factor so that 1% haste did not result in 1% more rage. It appears that this is not the case.
http://www.tankspot.com/forums/theory-articles/36614-rage-generation-haste.html

From Bagelbite's testing, we can see that haste has no appreciable effect on rage-per-hit, so haste effects WILL cause you to generate more rage in a given unit of time. This conclusion is supported by Jathine, who duplicated this testing with a wider range of haste buffs and weapons:
WoW Forums -> Haste-Rage Relationship (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=6214202322&sid=1)

- Haste's Effect on PPM enchants
TBD

Corbusier
04-14-2008, 10:19 PM
9. BEST PRACTICES

- Consumables

* Flask of Relentless Assault: 120 Attack Power. (2 hours, persists through death)
* Elixir of Major Strength: 35 Strength. (1 hour)
* Elixir of Major Agility: 35 Agility, 20 Crit Rating. (1 hour)
* Elixir of the Mongoose: 25 Agility, 28 Crit Rating. (1 hour)
* Fel Strength Elixir: 90 Attack Power, -10 Stamina. (1 hour)
* Elixir of Demonslaying: 265 Attack Power vs Demons. (5 minutes)

* Roasted Clefthoof: 20 Strength, 20 Spirit. (30 minutes)

* Haste Potion: 400 Haste Rating. (15 seconds, shares Health Potion cooldown)
* Insane Strength Potion: 120 Strength, -75 Defense Rating (15 seconds, shares Health Potion cooldown)

* Elemental Sharpening Stone: 28 Crit Rating (1 hour)
* Adamantite Weightstone: 12 weapon damage, 14 Crit Rating. (Mace/Fist, 1 hour)
* Adamantite Sharpening Stone: 12 weapon damage, 14 Crit Rating. (Axe/Sword/Dagger, 1 hour)

* Drums of Battle: 80 Haste Rating for party. (30 seconds)*
* Drums of War: 60 Attack Power for party. (30 seconds)*

- Raid Preparation

- Knowing the Fight

There is zero excuse to be ignorant of the ins and outs of an upcoming fight with all the resources available.
Bosskillers World of Warcraft Bosses, Guides, Movie Reviews and Guild Kills (http://www.bosskillers.com/)
WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft (http://wowwiki.com/)
MMO-Champion - World of Warcraft Guides and Raid Strategies (http://www.mmo-champion.com/)
Learn the fight, learn your role in it. Don't die.

- Consumables

Bring them. Lots of them. It's your job to farm for/make/purchase them, not your guild's. Make sure you have enough sharp/weightstones for the night, for both hands in case you are left without a shaman. Be sure you have at least enough flasks for the allotted raid time, or enough elixirs to cover the expected deaths (which can easily run into double digits on progression nights). Bring one stack of bandages at minimum, as well as 2-3 stacks of health potions.

- Gear

Is all your gear appropriately gemmed and enchanted? Did you repair before zoning in?

Be sure to bring along appropriate off-set gear as well. At certain points you may be expected to offtank, so be sure to grab that set from the bank before heading out. You may also need resist sets for certain encounters, so find out ahead of time. Some resist sets take quite a while to build; most notably the shadow resist set for Mother Sharahz. Farm for the materials to make these if you must.

- Awareness & Multi-Target Attacks
"Get out of the goddam fire!"

You know how Whirlwind hits up to 4 targets? And has a longer range than your other attacks? Yeah, about that. Careful where and when you use it. Yes it's part of your rotation. But if you break a sheep or a shackle, that mob is coming after you, or worse, the healer that just saved your ass.

Get a feel for the range of your Cleave & Whirlwind range, or download an addon that tracks distance for you. You and your raid leader (and healers) will get along much better.

- Cooldown Synergy

Taken almost verbatim from Elitist Jerks (http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t22705-dps_warrior_compendium/:)

Use them, use them in conjunction with each other if possible. Using short cooldowns such as trinkets or Deathwish as soon as possible in the fight allows them to cool down sooner and become ready for use again later on in the fight. Cooldowns used in conjunction with each other will always yield higher dps than cooldowns used consecutively. Take this example:

Recklessness guarantees most of your attacks for the next 15 seconds will be critical strikes.
Heroism increases your attack speed by 30&#37; for 40 seconds.

Used in conjunction with each other, you get 30% more attacks that are nearly guaranteed by Recklessness to crit if they land. This inflates the value of Recklessness by 30%. Note that Recklessness is still subject to the crit cap and Attack Table.
Used consecutively, each buff yields only it's own dps with no added value. Recklessness is 15 seconds of near 100% critical strike chance, Heroism is 40 seconds of 30% faster attack speed.

If possible, time your Recklessness/Deathwish/Trinket/Haste Potion/Insane Strength Potion with your shaman's Heroism. If you don't have a shaman, try and time your Deathwish/Trinket/Haste Potion/Insane Strength Potion to coincide with each other.

It should be mentioned that not all cooldowns scale each other. For instance, activating a trinket such as Berserker's Call and popping an Insane Strength Potion at the same time doesn't make either effect more potent in and of themselves. However both benefit from being timed with a heroism or recklessness. This mostly only matters if you run into a situation where you know that a fight won't last an additional two minutes for an extra use of a trinket or pot, and you have a choice of waiting to use it now, or saving it to coincide with a potential proc. In general, stacking like bonuses together won't result in an increase beyond the basic bonus. The exception to this is of course armor pen, as it grows in potency as armor approaches zero.

Bear in mind also that it pays to ensure that you use your trinkets, pots and other cooldowns just when BT/MS and WW will be available. Take for example the aforementioned Berserker's Call, which grants an AP boost for 20 seconds. If this trinket is used just when BT and WW become available a full 3xBT 2xWW cycle can be completed before the duration ends; if it's carelessly popped just after Bloodthirst and Whirlwind are used you will end up losing the buff before the third Bloodthirst and second Whirlwind can be executed.

Likewise, it is best to keep a close eye on timers for any ability which may result in you being unable to DPS for any length of time, and hold off on using cooldowns if they become available shortly before the timers for such abilities come up. Quite a bit of DPS can be lost from carelessly popping a pot and trinket just before say, getting graved on Morogrim or being airbursted by Archimonde.

- Standing Behind the Boss

You should know this by now. Seriously.

Attacking from behind has numerous benefits to both you and your raid (not to mention myriad opportunities for mildly clever witticisms). You effectively remove parry and block from the attack table (not dodge, this isn't PvP), increasing your DPS.Also by doing so you drastically reduce the chances that your tank will be parry-jibbed. Furthermore, many bosses have a nasty cleave/hateful strike/other fun frontal attack that can be completely avoided merely by standing behind its 180 degree frontal arc.

- Buffs/Debuffs

- Battle Shout

Keep it active at all times. Your DPS will improve, and your rogues and shaman will appreciate it.

* Solarian's Sapphire
Solarian's Sapphire

This trinket deserve special mention as it's our class specific trinket for TBC and because of it's unique stat. In terms of raid dps gained from a single trinket, this is by far the best trinket a warrior can use. It grants your Battle Shout an additional 70 Attack Power. This is affected by the Commanding Presence talent up to 87.5 Attack Power. 87.5 Attack Power for 5 members of the raid is 437.5 Attack Power. No other trinket comes close to the amount of Attack Power granted by this trinket.

- Sunder Armor

If your tank is not a warrior, congratulations! It's now your job to apply sunder armor. Not only will keeping a stack of five sunders active increase your DPS, it increases everyone else's physical DPS as well (apart from bleeds & poisons obviously).

- Demoralizing Shout

Keeping Demoralizing shout active is imperative if that is your responsibility, especially if Curse of Recklessness is being used (you did spec 5/5 Improved Demo Shout, right?). If you allow this debuff to wear off, your tank has a much higher chance of being killed by spike damage, and that big ugly monster will likely come after you first. Use a mod to track debuffs if you must, but DO NOT let it fade.

- Commanding Shout

No it's no sexy. No it won't increase your DPS. Sometimes though, you just have to bite the bullet, especially if you happen to be in a group with tanks/offtanks (or are said offtank).

- Survival

Dead warriors do zero DPS. Sometimes living a bit longer is more important than landing one more fat Bloodthirst crit.

- Berserker Rage

C'mon, you've had this skill for, what, 40 levels now? Use it.

- Defensive Stance & Shield

Make a macro for it already. Getting hit by AoE damage and the healers are ignoring you? Use said macro. Shield Block helps as well if you're taking physical damage.

- Shield Wall

Under dire circumstances, using your cooldown on Shield Wall instead of Recklessness can save your life, and sometimes the entire raid.

- Commanding Shout

On some encounters there are expected bursts of damage, aoe or single target, in which case it can be beneficial to use Commanding Shout instead of Battle Shout until the expected burst is over. Naj'entus/Illidari Council/Mother Shahraz come to mind.

- Blessing of Salvation

If you get only one buff, make sure it's this one. No questions. Beg, plead, throw a fit if you must.

Corbusier
04-14-2008, 10:19 PM
reserved 9

Corbusier
04-14-2008, 10:20 PM
reserved 10

That should be enough...hopefully.

Ciderhelm
04-14-2008, 10:25 PM
Hi my name is corbusier and I haven't realized that I can fit everything into one post.

Corbusier
04-14-2008, 10:58 PM
Hi my name is corbusier and I haven't realized that I can fit everything into one post.

Lies, I'm Corb!


>.>

Too used to the WoW forums I guess.

MasterWolf
04-15-2008, 03:08 AM
reserved 13

Kazeyonoma
04-15-2008, 08:44 AM
lol,

Corbusier
04-15-2008, 08:53 AM
I hate you all.

kittikat
04-15-2008, 09:04 AM
Hi my name is corbusier and I haven't realized that I can fit everything into one post.Sometimes it's easier to split them into separate posts (please remove your sigs when doing this) because if you need to edit something at a later date, it is faster and more efficient to only have to scroll through a couple dozen lines instead of a couple thousand. And it makes sectional pointers more obvious (like in my Hit Rating/Spell Hit/Expertise thread)

Kazeyonoma
04-15-2008, 09:10 AM
I don't think removing sigs fixes it though =P

Corbusier
04-15-2008, 09:13 AM
Either way, sig is off, and it looks like it's gone :P

Will be updating soon.

Kazeyonoma
04-15-2008, 09:25 AM
well yeh, when you turn off sig when you post they'll be gone but I think once you turn sigs back on, it'll just update all your posts with your sig again... lol Wait... nm i just noticed the "show your signature" button. Ifailkplxthx.

kittikat
04-15-2008, 09:27 AM
well yeh, when you turn off sig when you post they'll be gone but I think once you turn sigs back on, it'll just update all your posts with your sig again... lol Wait... nm i just noticed the "show your signature" button. Ifailkplxthx.
he has seen the light!

But this is what I'm talking about:

http://www.tankspot.com/forums/tankspot-library/36361-guide-hit-rating-spell-hit-expertise.html

Notice my sig only shows up at my very last post of the set.

Ciderhelm
04-25-2008, 03:41 PM
Corbusier,

Just a heads up on this. I hovered over your links and they aren't working, which reminded me to tell you that they're not supposed to work in these forums. Those will all work correctly as mouse-overs when they're moved to the public forums (private forum links are masked).

Corbusier
04-26-2008, 06:15 AM
Oh, that's no problem.

Ciderhelm
04-28-2008, 09:47 PM
Poking for pokeworthiness.

Jathine
04-28-2008, 10:20 PM
ZOMG! I AM HELPING FURTHER THE UNDERSTANDING OF THE WARRIOR CLASS!!

Damn, this german beer makes me do some wierd shit. Warsteiner ftl

Morgo
04-28-2008, 10:49 PM
You, sir, have finally seen the light!

What brought you to our nice country (and our good[I won't say best] beer?)?

Btw make sure to try out some other stuff, especially darker ones ;)

Galushi
04-28-2008, 11:22 PM
Nice read Corb. I'll be pointing dps warriors i know in the direction of this =)

Jathine
04-28-2008, 11:28 PM
You, sir, have finally seen the light!

What brought you to our nice country (and our good[I won't say best] beer?)?

Btw make sure to try out some other stuff, especially darker ones ;)

I LOVE German beer. I'm half German and have been drinking good, dark german beers for a long time. Tonight I was pounding down a 12 pack of Warsteiner Dunkel. Its a damn nice beer. My personal favorite.

I'm still a little pissed that I ended up helping the common warrior instead of harassing them on the warrior forums. Being helpful makes me feel...dirty.

Galushi
04-29-2008, 12:27 AM
Friendly, helpful warriors? What is the World (of warcraft) coming to!?!!?

cyberryu
04-29-2008, 03:15 AM
I read from a tanking article (forgot which one), that the boss' dodge rate is 5.6&#37;. So, what is it? 5.6% or 6.5%?

Corbusier
04-29-2008, 05:44 AM
I read from a tanking article (forgot which one), that the boss' dodge rate is 5.6%. So, what is it? 5.6% or 6.5%?
EJ testing is pointing to 6.25-6.5%.

Davi
04-29-2008, 10:18 AM
It is highly advisable that you NOT substitute fast weapons that are substantially lower DPS than your regular MH/OH, as this can actually result in less DPS.


What kind of ballpark are we talking about here?

Here are my specifics, as an example. I'm currently using Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality and Vanir's Left Fist of Brutality with executioner / potency respectively, but I'm debating whether or not I should enchant 2x Quickening Blade of the Prince executioner / mongoose and use those for execute range. I could also just enchant one for my offhand and use that. Would this constitute a "substantial" difference? I realize it's ~11 dps, but as far as execute damage goes I'm also swapping 23 agility for 252 ArP. My weapons aren't going to be changing for a while, but will the relative difference change with the rest of my gear (as I collect more ArP for example)?

My only other haste is Swiftsteel Shoulders, which puts me at a 2.4 attack speed iirc, and my total ArP (with the fists) is no more than 200 normally.

My other question is about swapping ranged weapons for execute range. I've got Vengeful Gladiator's War Edge equipped currently, but I figure if I'm swapping in 252 ArP on weapons, I might want to change out for Ancient Amani Longbow when I can grab it.

Finally, I'm generally Protection so I'm curious how this applies without any flurry haste. I've a feeling that the speed difference with QBP might be that much more effective. Then again, I may be better off just using the ArP weapons for the Recklessness part of execute range.

Corbusier
04-29-2008, 10:24 AM
What kind of ballpark are we talking about here?

Here are my specifics, as an example. I'm currently using Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality and Vanir's Left Fist of Brutality with executioner / potency respectively, but I'm debating whether or not I should enchant 2x Quickening Blade of the Prince executioner / mongoose and use those for execute range. I could also just enchant one for my offhand and use that. Would this constitute a "substantial" difference? I realize it's ~11 dps, but as far as execute damage goes I'm also swapping 23 agility for 252 ArP. My weapons aren't going to be changing for a while, but will the relative difference change with the rest of my gear (as I collect more ArP for example)?

My only other haste is Swiftsteel Shoulders, which puts me at a 2.4 attack speed iirc, and my total ArP (with the fists) is no more than 200 normally.

My other question is about swapping ranged weapons for execute range. I've got Vengeful Gladiator's War Edge equipped currently, but I figure if I'm swapping in 252 ArP on weapons, I might want to change out for Ancient Amani Longbow when I can grab it.

Finally, I'm generally Protection so I'm curious how this applies without any flurry haste. I've a feeling that the speed difference with QBP might be that much more effective. Then again, I may be better off just using the ArP weapons for the Recklessness part of execute range.
That's a very good question, and I intentionally left that part vague because I haven't tested it extensively. Your example is in that grey area where I am unsure, and thus didn't set a hard number. For prot, since you lack flurry like you said, it is probably best to use the dual quickening blades. For fury it is less clear, do a couple tests on your own.

The Amani bow is better than the thrown in almost all cases.

BoomBeef
04-29-2008, 01:40 PM
Excellent update. I think your tip about ArP stacking at T6 level is dead on. It is tough to balance with the badge gear from 2.3 which lacks other dps friendly stats which is why I have avoided most of it. I'd like to mention another source source for some ArP gear; the S3 Arena gear. Of course that involves some PvP but might be worth it in a few slots for folks looking to squeeze in ArP while waiting on Akama gloves and Bloodboil legs etc. to drop.
Heck, I'm thinking of going back to prot. spec to be able to run ZA so I can get that ArP bow as well now that Davi brought it up. Still kind of tough for me to get into ZA runs as Fury irregardless of the truckload of DPS I can do but oh well. Must get more ArP!

Rex13
04-29-2008, 01:56 PM
Thanks both to Corb and Meeks for this guide in all its iterations. It has been a HUGE help to me since I dedicated myself to fury. I was yet another warrior socketed to the balls with hit gems. I've done a lot of reevaluation of my gear since I was referred to this guide and I've managed to get a lot of very solid gear. I haven't gotten a single drop from 25 mans yet but I've got my hit rating jacked up to 180 without a single hit gem socketed. Devoting those sockets to Strength and crit rating has been a HUGE boost to my dps. Thanks again for your work on this guide guys. Great stuff.

Cayleb
04-29-2008, 01:58 PM
If you have a fairly respectable prot set, offer to off-tank for ZA as fury. I've done it several times, just switching to my prot gear for the bear and Lynx(and the occasional trash pull) and just in burn mode elsewise. I've done it with a paladin MTing and a druid MTing, both without issue. The added bonus is that the rest of the boss fights you aren't needed as tank in, you provide an absolute truckload of damage as well.

Davi
04-29-2008, 04:20 PM
I went ahead and did some testing, still prot spec, on Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality and Vanir's Left Fist of Brutality versus Quickening Blade of the Prince x2 as described in my earlier post.

I'll admit my data was a bit sloppy and my math was probably wrong somewhere, but the difference is large enough that I'm confident fist / fist is superior in my particular case. I'm guessing that adding Flurry to the mix will only make fist / fist better.


Here's a quick summary, keeping in mind (fist = 2.5 speed), (sword = 1.5 speed).



MH OH totalDPS whiteDPS executeDPS avg execute sec/execute (1.5 is ideal)
FIST FIST 995 440 556 970 2.34
SWORD SWORD 948 399 550 879 2.14
FIST SWORD 957 419 539 985 2.56
SWORD FIST 955 405 550 867 2.11


It is probably a result of the DPS discrepancy between the weapons I used, but I'm curious to know whether FAST mh / SLOW oh is the way to go for execute range. I'll try and post back when I have some more data.

Bloodwraith
04-29-2008, 06:27 PM
Awesome guide, read it while I was stuck in an AV turtle. You basically covered every aspect of fury except for a question that always seem to be asked on the US forums:

"What stats for _________(Raid)"

Other than that the only other thing I can think of is your opinion on mods you should use while raiding as fury.

I saw you included my old guide ♥

-BW

Corbusier
04-29-2008, 06:34 PM
I was considering adding a section on mods, but I'm not sure how valuable that would actually be. I'm open to suggestions.

Jathine
04-30-2008, 08:22 AM
Rampage Bar: Curse.com (http://wow.curse.com/downloads/details/5148/)
FuryDPS: Curse.com (http://wow.curse.com/downloads/details/12370/)

Those are the only two mods I can think of that would directly help with Fury dps. Rampage Bar just gives a couple of small bars for shouts and Rampage. FuryDPS is kind of an expanded version of Rampage Bar which added BT and WW cooldowns along with cooldowns for trinkets. I loaded it up last night and it seemed like a nice little mod. I didn't spend much time going through its options or looking at what it was doing all the time so I'm not sure how beneficial it will be for most people. I just liked having the cooldowns for trinkets and abilities in a nice moveable frame.

GarrettJaxx
04-30-2008, 10:22 AM
Corb - great job. Love the Best Practices section - no reason to be unprepared for a raid gents and ladies!

Looking forward to debate, etc. You posted on WoW Forums yet? I bet you get a million "I r teh Fury and you r teh wrongxX0r!"

Corbusier
04-30-2008, 10:24 AM
Thanks!

Yep, it's posted to the WoW forums at:
WoW Forums -> DW Fury Guide - 5th Edition (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=6214102349&sid=1)

Surprisingly few trolls, I must admit.

Drahk
04-30-2008, 11:30 AM
Hi. I'm new to posting here but have been lurking for a while. Anyways I was wondering if theres anything similar to Shaman: Enhancement - Elitist Jerks (http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t20765-shaman_enhancement/#Enhancement_Points_-_EP_-_Stat_Weight_System) out there for fury warriors to be able to plug into a Gear system for in game? I know that Enhancement shamman's and Fury warriors are very close in needs So maybe that just needs a little adjustment? Thanks for your time.

(sorry about that response Cyderhelm I thought I was on the actual post of the fury guide >.<)

Corbusier
04-30-2008, 11:31 AM
The closest thing I can think of is Pawn, and you have to set your own stat values.

Drahk
04-30-2008, 12:21 PM
Actually I use pawn I'm just not sure what to set the values at and that is what I was looking for was an idea of where to set the values so I can judge gear on the fly when I'm raiding or doing heroics ect. I mean.. I know what I think would be an upgrade for gear wise but sometimes its a close call.

Corbusier
04-30-2008, 12:25 PM
I'm hesitant to give solid numbers as far as stats go because they change depending on your current gear and the target's armor values, as well as your group makeup. Search the WoW warrior forum for posts by Nomepunter, he posted a fairly accurate SEP ranking.

Drahk
04-30-2008, 12:48 PM
Thanks

skreed
05-01-2008, 01:26 PM
Just needed to post my appreciation. I got my first crack at Kara this week (career Prot Warrior respeccing to Fury for the Raid). Timing was perfect in that it coincided with this updated guide.

I read it, tweaked my gear accordingly, re-read it, figured out my ability rotation, read it again, debated some of the negotiable talents with my tank and raid leader... and (after calling a last minute audible and buying some Crit gems to slot instead of the Hit gems I was planning on going with just as the summon to the meeting stone came through) hit the ground running.

I had the expected growing pains and learning curve you'd expect when you cut your Fury teeth in raid content youve never seen before. But, by the end of the night things started to click... and I somehow, when the dust cleared (though the numbers were nothing to brag about and I'm still scratching my head as to how this happened) topped the DPS board by a slim margin.

Many thanks to TS and Corbusier for the excellent guide.

BoomBeef
05-04-2008, 02:51 PM
I'm not sure who to contact so I will just mention it here. Probably Ciderhelm? (Who is understandably busy as heck I'm guessing). This page needs to be updated as well on the site:
TankSpot - Fury & Arms DPS Resources (http://www.tankspot.com/index.php?pageid=FuryArmsDPS)

Delete this post of course; it is just serve as a reminder. I'm pointing people to this post as "The Fury Bible" now.

Heinrich
05-04-2008, 03:57 PM
Excellent thread supplies a lot of great information but I have a few questions and concerned that cannot really be answered by the guide alone

-Firstly I really dont know what to chose in the way of trinket setups, im currently using shard+bloodlust broach, I only have 30 percent crit with this combo and I was wondering wether or not I should go for shard/rage of the unrav or bloodlust broach/rage of the unrav, I get nearly 32 crit with these setups but is this worth the expertise loss as I know its a great stat but I just never seem to crit enough with 30 percent ;x

-Secondly, I seem to do absolutely pitiful dps in 5 mans, with my gear I was expecting at least 800+, I came out of magisters terrace at an overall 668...I was following the rotation and trying to imporvise to maximise my damage in certain situations but I dunno, I really cant explain that one. Also soloing, I always have recount up and the numbers are quite depressing, is this normal part and parcel of being a fury warrior?

Thanks for the guide and any input on my concerns.

Armory link-http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Turalyon&n=Heinrich

Apologies if it shows arms gear, not much I can do there, logged out in fury gear but no chance as of typing

Corbusier
05-04-2008, 09:08 PM
Excellent thread supplies a lot of great information but I have a few questions and concerned that cannot really be answered by the guide alone

-Firstly I really dont know what to chose in the way of trinket setups, im currently using shard+bloodlust broach, I only have 30 percent crit with this combo and I was wondering wether or not I should go for shard/rage of the unrav or bloodlust broach/rage of the unrav, I get nearly 32 crit with these setups but is this worth the expertise loss as I know its a great stat but I just never seem to crit enough with 30 percent ;x

-Secondly, I seem to do absolutely pitiful dps in 5 mans, with my gear I was expecting at least 800+, I came out of magisters terrace at an overall 668...I was following the rotation and trying to imporvise to maximise my damage in certain situations but I dunno, I really cant explain that one. Also soloing, I always have recount up and the numbers are quite depressing, is this normal part and parcel of being a fury warrior?

Thanks for the guide and any input on my concerns.

Armory link-http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Turalyon&n=Heinrich

Apologies if it shows arms gear, not much I can do there, logged out in fury gear but no chance as of typing

Thanks for your response, but questions like this are best addressed the the Armory Ratings Subforum: Armory Ratings & Suggestions - TankSpot (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/armory-ratings-suggestions/)

But of the trinkets you mentioned, Shard & Bloodlust Brooch is your best combo.

Heinrich
05-05-2008, 06:04 AM
Thanks realised my mistake shortly afterwards but was too happy to be allowed back as fury!

The trinket setup was the main concern, so thanks again

GarrettJaxx
05-05-2008, 07:36 AM
But of the trinkets you mentioned, Shard & Bloodlust Brooch is your best combo.

EJ Spreadsheet shows Shard with about 38% uptime (172 hit rating). Don't even think about not using it :)

Kraygor
05-05-2008, 03:27 PM
Corb, your clever use of multiple posts to divide up your guide allows you to link each section in your Table of Contents! You've already done part of it, but you'll have to shift some sections down into the reserved posts.


Table Of Contents
1. Talents (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/damage-per-second-discussion/36552-dw-fury-guide-5th-edition.html#post71458)
2. Stats (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/damage-per-second-discussion/36552-dw-fury-guide-5th-edition.html#post71459)
3. Attack Table
- Two Roll System for Specials?
4. Offhands (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/damage-per-second-discussion/36552-dw-fury-guide-5th-edition.html#post71461)
- Priorities
- Whirlwind damage
- Flurry & Synced Speed "Extra Attacks"
- The Effects of Sharpening Stones
5. Skill Rotation
6. Execute Range
7. Enchants, Gear & Gemming - Choosing Items (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/damage-per-second-discussion/36552-dw-fury-guide-5th-edition.html#post71462)
8. Haste, PPM, Rage & You (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/damage-per-second-discussion/36552-dw-fury-guide-5th-edition.html#post71463)
- Haste's effects on PPM enchants
- Haste & Rage Generation
9. Best Practices (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/damage-per-second-discussion/36552-dw-fury-guide-5th-edition.html#post71465)
- Consumables
- Cooldown Synergy
- Raid Preparation
- Awareness & Multi-Target Attacks
- Standing Behind the Boss
- Buffs/Debuffs
- Survival

Tavy
05-05-2008, 07:36 PM
Seconds into fight:
0: BT
1.5: WW
3: Global cool down free
6: BT
7.5: Global cool down free
10.5: WW
12: BT
13.5: Global cool down free
15: Global cool down free
18: BT
19.5: WW

Just for clearification, the last BT/WW there is the start of the next rotation, not the end of the rotation, correct?

Corbusier
05-06-2008, 06:07 AM
Corb, your clever use of multiple posts to divide up your guide allows you to link each section in your Table of Contents! You've already done part of it, but you'll have to shift some sections down into the reserved posts.
Never thought of that, thanks!

Just for clearification, the last BT/WW there is the start of the next rotation, not the end of the rotation, correct?
Yep.

Dugarax
05-13-2008, 09:28 AM
I don't know if it is still the case, but if I recall good, Windfury has no effect on the offhand weapon, therefore allowing to apply a Weight/Sharpening stone on you offhand for a slight dps increase.

It might not be the case anymore, explaining why it would not be in your guide. But if it still works it would be nice to see that information appear somewhere in the guide imo.

Regards,

Dugarax

GarrettJaxx
05-13-2008, 12:19 PM
I don't know if it is still the case, but if I recall good, Windfury has no effect on the offhand weapon, therefore allowing to apply a Weight/Sharpening stone on you offhand for a slight dps increase.

It might not be the case anymore, explaining why it would not be in your guide. But if it still works it would be nice to see that information appear somewhere in the guide imo.

Regards,

Dugarax
It's only when stones are applied to both weapons that WF does not work. A stone on your MH will proc WF, so yeah, use 'em.

EDITED

Dugarax
05-13-2008, 12:26 PM
It's only when stones are applied to both weapons that WF does not work. A stone on either MH or OH (but not both) will still proc WF, so yeah, use 'em.

thanks for your answer.

Yeah I was pointing out that this information is not in the guide, it would be nice to include it I think. I'm not saying that the guide is bad in any way though. It's a really nice guide by the way Corbusier.

I think though, that if you put a stone on your MH, windfury won't work since it seems that the buff only applies to your main hand.
Windfury Totem - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft (http://www.wowwiki.com/Windfury_Totem)

GarrettJaxx
05-13-2008, 12:29 PM
thanks for your answer.

Yeah I was pointing out this information is not in the guide, it would be nice to include it I think. I'm not saying that the guide is bad in any way though. It's a really nice guide by the way Corbusier.

I think though, that if you put a stone on your MH, windfury won't work since it seems that the buff only applies to your main hand.
Windfury Totem - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft (http://www.wowwiki.com/Windfury_Totem)
True dat! Edited above thanks!

Drahk
05-20-2008, 05:10 AM
Updated weapons?

The recent changes to Crafted Epic weapons like Dragonstrike has made it possible to Dual weild these. My current available weapons are Dragonstrike and the Badge gear Fist weapons and anything from SSC/TK (minus Vashj/Kael) I've been considering doing the Dual weild Dragonsstrike + dual Mongoose but Im just really uncertain as what would be better for me in the long run. While the dps from the Badge Fist weapons is better I dont have the badges at the moment. But if I want to make another Dragonstrike I'll have to spend a couple badges that I have to get the mats. Help? Thanks.

Corbusier
05-20-2008, 09:28 AM
Updated weapons?

The recent changes to Crafted Epic weapons like Dragonstrike has made it possible to Dual weild these. My current available weapons are Dragonstrike and the Badge gear Fist weapons and anything from SSC/TK (minus Vashj/Kael) I've been considering doing the Dual weild Dragonsstrike + dual Mongoose but Im just really uncertain as what would be better for me in the long run. While the dps from the Badge Fist weapons is better I dont have the badges at the moment. But if I want to make another Dragonstrike I'll have to spend a couple badges that I have to get the mats. Help? Thanks.
DS or badge MH fist w/exectutioner
badge OH fist w/ mongoose

DS makes a terrible offhand

sejer
05-21-2008, 06:45 AM
Thanks guys for the new revision of the guide, always nice to have a good compilation to refer to!




Words...

What are you doing in here, Drahk? Get back in the tank cupboard where you belong! :P



And now for my question. We just killed Illidari Council this week and we have little problem killing most other BT bosses, which means some more gear options are opening up. My next upgrade is likely to be either head or legs and I would like to get some idea of what gear I should prioritise.

Armoury link (http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Stormreaver&n=Sejer)

In case I am logged out in PVP gear, here is a brief summary of my PVE (unbuffed) stats:
2100AP
33% crit
14% hit (186 hit rating + precision)
518 ArP
2x 2.6 speed weapons
Most of my gear is from BT/MH

At the moment I use [Fel-Steel Warhelm] (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=29983) and [Greaves of the Bloodwarder] (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=29950) and so these slots will be my next upgrades.

So I am thinking of holding out for [Leggings of Devine Rebtribution] (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=32341) and [Helm of the Illidari Shatterer] (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=32373) because I love ArP and the helm is just lovely anyway.

There are always the T6 legs and head but I don't really like them as much for DPS as I feel the aforementioned are better (also, don't really like the agility on the T6 stuff). We also have [Legguards or Endless Rage] (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=30903), which are nice but I prefer the ArP on the Bloodboil ones.

So, should I definately wait for the two items that I really want to drop or do you think I am being too particular and that T6 is OK? The main reason I ask is that I feel the ArP on the legs will pretty much finish my ArP collection and then I will be a happy chappy. As for the head, the main reason here is that I am pretty much next in line for the T6 head and the Council helm might not drop for a long time but I am weary of losing 30 hit rating from my head. I am not working towards any T6 bonuses at the moment but I do have the gloves in the bank.


Also, you will see I have zero expertise at the moment. I have been looking at [Shard of Contempt] (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=34472) but I have a feeling it's going to involve me going prot just to get in the instance. How badly should I try to get this item?


All comments and criticism welcome!

Corbusier
05-21-2008, 03:11 PM
Again, thanks for your response, but questions like this are best addressed the the Armory Ratings Subforum.

Corbusier
05-27-2008, 01:28 PM
Added Bagelbite's ArP calculator to the Stats section:

World Of Warcraft Armor Penetration Damage Increase Calculator (http://rehfeld.us/wow/armor-penetration.html)

Spaceknight
05-28-2008, 04:36 PM
Is there a time when your normal rotation would outdps an execute spam other then having crappier execute weapons? I heard that at around BT/Hyjal Level, normal rotations will outdps execute, but I'm not sure of this.

GarrettJaxx
07-04-2008, 07:53 AM
Is there a time when your normal rotation would outdps an execute spam other then having crappier execute weapons? I heard that at around BT/Hyjal Level, normal rotations will outdps execute, but I'm not sure of this.
A question like this is best answered looking through your own WWS (Wow Web Stats). The differences between fights, time on target, and your own raid-buffed stats have everything to do with the answer.

I feel like not enough Fury warriors are using this useful tool. It really should be looked at for entire raids, too.

Mediumwell
07-04-2008, 10:21 AM
Is there a time when your normal rotation would outdps an execute spam other then having crappier execute weapons? I heard that at around BT/Hyjal Level, normal rotations will outdps execute, but I'm not sure of this.

From EJ's:

Yes, Bloodthirst does outperform Execute per 30 rage at certain levels of Attack Power. Those levels are as follows:

0/2 Imp Execute, 0/4 t6: 2755.5 AP
0/2 Imp Execute, 2/4 t6: 2895.5 AP
2/2 Imp Execute, 0/4 t6: 2988.8 AP
2/2 Imp Execute, 2/4 t6: 3128.8 AP
So if your ap is at these levels and the boss is <20% use bloodthirst when your rage goes over 30.

GarrettJaxx
07-04-2008, 03:05 PM
From EJ's:

Yes, Bloodthirst does outperform Execute per 30 rage at certain levels of Attack Power. Those levels are as follows:
[LIST=1]
0/2 Imp Execute, 0/4 t6: 2755.5 AP

Things like this make me highly suspect. I get 30 rage in less than a second, and I am always well above 2755 AP by the time a boss is at 20%, what with Rampage and Battleshout and countless other raid buffs. So this is telling me sort of to never Execute? I mean - a full rage bar, sure, but then just spam Bloodthirst? I dunno, sometimes I feel like EJ edicts are just too random. But meh, I'm no math geek, maybe I'll try it out and compare results.

Corbusier
07-05-2008, 09:46 PM
Things like this make me highly suspect. I get 30 rage in less than a second, and I am always well above 2755 AP by the time a boss is at 20%, what with Rampage and Battleshout and countless other raid buffs. So this is telling me sort of to never Execute? I mean - a full rage bar, sure, but then just spam Bloodthirst? I dunno, sometimes I feel like EJ edicts are just too random. But meh, I'm no math geek, maybe I'll try it out and compare results.

Little known fact: BT has a 6 second CD. Makes it tough to spam. What else are you doing for those 3 open GCDs?

GarrettJaxx
07-06-2008, 07:31 AM
Little known fact: BT has a 6 second CD. Makes it tough to spam. What else are you doing for those 3 open GCDs?

If I'm not refreshing Demo Shout (my tanks always forget to keep it up so I off use a GCD on it) I'll either refresh Rampage or even pop a Heroic Strike if I'm at 50% rage or better. If I'm in Execute range, after refreshing shouts/Rampage I'll build up a bit of rage and let one fly.

The question I am trying to figure out is if I should be ignoring Execute, and using a normal rotation, even a Whirlwind, to maintain DPS and hit a BT even below 20%. Sounds like EJ is saying yes.

Mediumwell
07-06-2008, 09:52 AM
The question I am trying to figure out is if I should be ignoring Execute, and using a normal rotation, even a Whirlwind, to maintain DPS and hit a BT even below 20%. Sounds like EJ is saying yes.

What EJ is saying is that if your AP meets whats posted above, then keeping BT on cooldown during your execute spam will yield more dps per 30 rage. It goes on to say that this becomes untrue if you are producing 55+ rage per gcd. I would say...here DPS Warrior Compendium - Page 22 - Elitist Jerks (http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t22705-dps_warrior_compendium/p22/) read it for yourself.

Corbusier
07-06-2008, 10:55 AM
If I'm not refreshing Demo Shout (my tanks always forget to keep it up so I off use a GCD on it) I'll either refresh Rampage or even pop a Heroic Strike if I'm at 50% rage or better. If I'm in Execute range, after refreshing shouts/Rampage I'll build up a bit of rage and let one fly.

The question I am trying to figure out is if I should be ignoring Execute, and using a normal rotation, even a Whirlwind, to maintain DPS and hit a BT even below 20%. Sounds like EJ is saying yes.

No, you shouldn't be ignoring execute; in fact you should only be spamming execute and hit BT if it lights up. Those two attacks will give you the highest possible DPS when you have heroism/reck/drums/etc. WW and HS should not be used in this phase.

GarrettJaxx
07-06-2008, 12:39 PM
Thanks as always Corb, you slutty little shammy Draenei.

Corbusier
07-07-2008, 08:56 AM
I get around, what can I say.

Dragaan
07-20-2008, 06:58 AM
Great guide corb. I have couple lil things to say that you may or may not want to add into your guide. They are very small and may seem unimportant/obvious to a lot of us, but it may help some.

1) Lots of warriors think that wearing anything but plate is stupid.... That is just ignorant, since a lot of the best melee gear in the game is leather. If you are taking physical dmg as a fury warrior, something is wrong with your tank (except in rare situations).

2) Armor pen and executioner. ArP does scale with itself and will get more valuable as you get more of it. That doesnt mean that executioner ISN'T a good idea for your mainhand because you have little or no static ArP from your gear. I am CONSTANTLY hearing warriors (of all tiers of raiding) say that mongoose is better for them because they have little or no ArP from their gear. (these are usually the warriors that I blow away in DPS when I'm in prot spec, lol)

3) Just a tip: For warriors who are new to raiding or just to raiding as dps, practice your rotation. The best way (that i know of) to do this is to fight the immortals in the Blasted Lands. They never die and do minimal damage to a plate-wearing class. You also hit them pretty hard so rage gen is very decent.

Good work on your guide.

Dragaan
07-20-2008, 07:08 AM
Oh, and I have a question for you as well... I am a tank in raids but I also work very hard on my fury set and I dps a lot. I do a lot of research and use tools like spreadsheets and maxdps a lot, but there's one thing about fury-gearing that I'm confused on.

I've heard others say this before, and I think it is mentioned in your guide that after a certain point crit becomes more valuable than ap. The guide didn't go into any more detail than that. One number I've heard thrown around is 2200. That after you reach 2200 unbuffed ap, you should push crit AHEAD of ap (even if you are at 30%+ already). I have not been able to find much information backing that up, and according to maxdps and the spreadsheets I've used, ap is ALWAYS better than crit when you're at 30%+ crit unbuffed...

Right now I am at about 2220 ap, 31.50% crit, 160 hit, 1078 ArP, 11 expertise, and 21haste. All unbuffed.

Is there a reason that I should start focusing more on crit (over ap)? Is this total BS? Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks.

GarrettJaxx
07-20-2008, 07:32 AM
I know you asked Corb, but here's my $.02: At those stats, I'd say if anything work on your crit so more of your offhand is hitting and proccing crits. Sure you can use more crit at this point, and you don't need to worry as much about AP, indeed. But with the gear to even get to those stats you must be in BT, and I'd warrant higher hit than 160 at that point.

Dragaan
07-20-2008, 07:49 AM
...and you don't need to worry as much about AP, indeed...

Well, what I'm asking is why? Why would crit be more beneficial than AP? And exactly when would it be wise to stop focusing on AP if it were true? I've never heard of an "AP soft-cap" and the only reason I can think for wanting more offhand crits is for rage gen (since 1 white crit generates more rage than two white hits). Theoretically, my flurry should have near-100% uptime with my current crit (esp if I have a druid in my group). I just don't know where the evidence supporting this "AP soft-cap" (my own term, heh) is truly coming from.

Thanks for the response. Would like to hear more on this issue.

EDIT: Btw, you can see my gear currently on the armory. I'm still prot, but I logged in DPS gear. (don't laugh at the intellect on my boots tho. it makes me smarter than the rest of you :P )

Dragaan
07-20-2008, 10:54 PM
:/

loquatious
07-21-2008, 06:40 AM
I think the logic of Crit > AP is when you calculate the value of the stats in item costs at some point the value of a crit exceeds the value of just improving the base damage.

For example at 10,000 ap increasing AP by 10 is a negligable change, but the value of doing 1.5 times damage is much better.

So at some point Crit is better than AP but at what point is the question :)

Dragaan
07-21-2008, 04:22 PM
I get what you're saying. But yea, I'd sure like to know when. I'm not going to do the math myself because I'm lazy :). From now on, I will be using crit/strength gems in both yellow AND red sockets instead of just using 10str in the reds. And also gemming crit/strength in sockets when I am ignoring the bonus. That was my main issue - when to stop using 10strength as my priority gem and start using crit/strength. We'll see what happens..

Corbusier
07-21-2008, 10:14 PM
I get what you're saying. But yea, I'd sure like to know when.
This is why I linked spreadsheets. So you can figure these things out on your own. Most put the break point around 4k AP raid buffed.

GarrettJaxx
07-22-2008, 09:19 AM
I think the logic of Crit > AP is when you calculate the value of the stats in item costs at some point the value of a crit exceeds the value of just improving the base damage.

For example at 10,000 ap increasing AP by 10 is a negligable change, but the value of doing 1.5 times damage is much better.

So at some point Crit is better than AP but at what point is the question :)
Come back and be sure to tell us what your testing shows you. Sometimes just having enough people go out and try something is just as valuable as epeen math skillz. GL!

Dragaan
07-22-2008, 08:42 PM
This is why I linked spreadsheets. So you can figure these things out on your own. Most put the break point around 4k AP raid buffed.

According to the spreadsheets, ap > crit for me even close to 5k buffed. Reason I was asking is because of what I've been hearing tons of people say about the magic "2200" or whatever... Sometimes spreadsheets aren't 100% accurate and since I am a tank in raids, I was just wondering if any DPS warriors have any suggestions.

Corbusier
07-23-2008, 09:03 AM
I'm well aware that spreadsheets aren't 100% accurate, but they're close enough for this exercise.

There isn't any 'magic 2200' number to shoot for.

I've found that in late BT gear, your AP is high compared to your crit, so I've been socketing str/crit gems. As you move into Sunwell, items tend to have more crit, so I plan to socket str to keep a balance. Balancing your stats is more important than some arbitrary number.

Tatt
07-24-2008, 11:50 AM
Hey corb - if the guild I am in is starting to phase out kara run's, and badges become less available due to my RL schedule, are the claws of phoenix or claws of moolten fury nearly as good? I have the badge fist OH already, just seeing if it is an imperative to save up for MH.

IttIcKlEs
08-05-2008, 02:00 PM
great guide i am currently lvl37 tauren warrior(have a 70 human warrior on hellcream as well)and going furry for my guild this will help me alot thx corb

ebs2002
08-05-2008, 02:41 PM
Tatt: the Hyjal claws are nearly as good as the badge fist if they're available to you. Obviously, the badge claws are better, but if you're on a badge-budget (man, that phrase just sounds awesome to me), and the Hyjal MH drops for you, may as well pick em up and put the badge MH on the back-burner while you spend your badges elsewhere.

Tatt
08-05-2008, 02:42 PM
Yeah, just harder and harder to get kara runs in lately, sitting at 30 badges at the moment, all I still need is badge ring and MH claw. Once I pick up those I do not think you will ever see me in kara or a heroic again :)

ebs2002
08-05-2008, 03:34 PM
I've been living off of the occasional heroic, and the badges from running SSC 5/6 and TK 3/4 for a few weeks.

It's slow as hell, and I wish I could hit up Kara. I still need the OH fist and mail gloves ><

Tatt
08-05-2008, 03:35 PM
S4 gloves now, Martial Perfection if I get lucky, screw the badge ones, I will be happy till Silent Justice come my way.

discokill
08-06-2008, 02:56 PM
First off thanks for putting together this great guide. It's been a ton of help as I made the switch from Arms to Fury.

One question that I didn't see addressed anywhere. On the suggested talent tree you have 3 points in Thunder Clap but TC isn't mentioned anywhere else. I've gotten my rotation down pretty well so far and it's not something I use at all (though I'm very open to being wrong). Wouldn't Iron Will be a better place for those points? Granted you said anything in that area is up to personal preference but why use TC at all?

Thanks

Tatt
08-06-2008, 02:57 PM
If there is not a warrior in the raid TC is your job to help mitigate boss damage to the tank. Stance dancing sucks, but oh well.

ebs2002
08-06-2008, 03:10 PM
The one bright side if you're stuck on TC duty: if your expertise isn't maxed (it probably isn't), you will occasionally see overpower light up! Yay, a new skill!

*rolls eyes* okay, that's not really a bright side when you're only dealing 400dmg on your overpower. I try :(

Tatt
08-06-2008, 03:11 PM
LOL that's like saying its nice dropping into defensive so you can throw a revenge out there :p

discokill
08-06-2008, 11:33 PM
got it. Thanks for the info. We're usually got a warrior in the raids so I never thought to use it.

Corrodin
08-18-2008, 11:06 AM
Heck, I'm thinking of going back to prot. spec to be able to run ZA so I can get that ArP bow as well now that Davi brought it up. Still kind of tough for me to get into ZA runs as Fury irregardless of the truckload of DPS I can do but oh well. Must get more ArP!

A nice set up for ZA that lets you be fury and a huge asset to the group is bring your tank gear.

I usually roll with a Prot pally so he tank everything except: Human phase of Bear boss, Dragonhawk, and half of the Lynx (just stand and split lash). Super easy and also min/maxs raid set-up. Bear runs are fun.

Huangism
10-08-2008, 08:19 AM
A nice set up for ZA that lets you be fury and a huge asset to the group is bring your tank gear.

I usually roll with a Prot pally so he tank everything except: Human phase of Bear boss, Dragonhawk, and half of the Lynx (just stand and split lash). Super easy and also min/maxs raid set-up. Bear runs are fun.


You don't tank the troll phase on bear boss? I have never seen a prot pally tank the bear phase since it hits a lot harder lol

on the question of using a slow/slow or a slow/fast for fury, I have always used slow/fast and i have always out dpsed slow/slow. My gear is about t5-t6 quality (with no T6 pieces) and i have out dpsed 4 piece t6 warriors with 1300 armor penetration using slow/slow combo. i am sure the other better geared warriors are skilled since they are in higher ranked guilds and raids on a regular basis.

Kazeyonoma
10-08-2008, 09:31 AM
I appreciate your anecdotal data about Slow/fast beating out slow/slow, but if all DPS and stats are equal, and you have an offhand that is 1.6 speed, or an offhand that is 2.6 speed. the 2.6 speed, combined with the same MH you've been using, will outdps the 1.6 speed. This isn't anecdotal, this isn't me being elitist, this isn't us throwing out randomness at you, it is proven mathematically, through spreadsheets, and in WWS parses and test data.

Corbusier
10-08-2008, 08:23 PM
Spreadsheets cannot ever cover the gamut of in-game scenarios.

Kazeyonoma
10-08-2008, 10:01 PM
Which is of course true, and I wouldn't rely solely on spreadsheets, but 1 scenario where he gives advice but has no mathematical backing or even a screenshot to prove it is hard pressed for me to believe when so many people from both this website, and elitistjerks has shown that since the whirlwind change, Slow/Slow has beaten out slow/fast.

Corbusier
10-08-2008, 10:12 PM
How would a screenshot prove anything? I've talked to a few people with access to every piece of gear in the game that prefer having a fast offhand due to rage overcapping, and I am beginning to experience this myself. This is essentially wasted potential DPS, and the effect is lessened by using a fast offhand.

Either way, the difference would end up being extremely small, especially since WW dps isn't the key benefit of a slow offhand, flurry uptime is.

Corbusier
10-28-2008, 01:48 PM
I am currently working on an update for WotLK, including but not limited to:

Spec/talent updates
new hit/crit etc conversion numbers
ArP changes
Deep Wounds changes

Any input is appreciated.

Tatt
10-28-2008, 01:49 PM
HOLY SHIT CORB SIGHTING!!!!!


hi corb :)

Corbusier
10-28-2008, 01:51 PM
GD tatt at least make yourself useful

Tatt
10-28-2008, 01:54 PM
Wow that hurt.... :)

My biggest question for you would be your opinion on ArP for dps warriors...while waiting for the xpac I am potentially picking up a few T6 odds and ends, and possibly a badge piece or two, but people's comments about how bad ArP has become have me slightly unsure what to get. Whatcha think about it?

ebs2002
10-28-2008, 02:44 PM
My input would be relating to Deep Wounds. Currently, it's bugged, and thus makes slow/fast better than slow/slow. Blizz will be changing this soon. If you're going to talk about DW fury with Deep Wounds, be aware of that change.

Also, the simpler you can keep Deep Wounds, the better. The key is that each crit does 48% of weapon damage, over time. Stacking the ticks as high as possible is fun, but "deep wounds uptime" is meaningless (if the dot is ticking for 2k, then isn't refreshed, you didn't suddenly lose 2k DPS because you didn't crit). Each crit is just as important as the last, and it doesn't matter how frequently it occurs.

Of course, getting to 2k dmg/tick is still fun, in the same respect that getting a high Shield Slam crit is fun.

Tatt
10-28-2008, 02:49 PM
Thought of another question...comparing a 20/51/0 TG build to 28/42/0....using axe spec and getting trauma...would the 5% crit and 5% extra crit damage, plus the trauma effect, along with losing the 5% hit nerf, outweigh TG and procced slams for damage?

ebs2002
10-28-2008, 03:02 PM
I doubt it, if you're using comparable weapons.

Extra crit damage from axes isn't a huge damage increase. It brings you from 2.2 to 2.26 modifier on your crits. If a normal attack does 500dmg, a normal crit does 1000. With impale, it's 1100. With Axe spec, it's 1130. Decent, but not huge. 5% crit is pretty big, but I'd say that the extra stats from wielding a second 2h weapon negates that.

And with TG, your weapons hit considerably harder, your specials won't be missing if you have balanced gear with the requisite hit rating, and Imp WW is considerably better with TG than without.

I'd venture that they're pretty similar in DPS overall, and that TG being better on trash will win out.

But I'm just speculating...

Tatt
10-28-2008, 03:04 PM
You are probably right, I just saw 5% crit, which means putting warriors nearly 50% or greater raid buffed, 5% crit damage (zomg I love scaling stat modifiers) sweeping strikes, plus an extra 15% damage on the already aforementioned deep wounds....I have enjoyed TG so far, I already walked around with about 180-190 hit rating, so 5% does not really hurt me much, jsut looking at all my options.

Corbusier
10-28-2008, 03:08 PM
My input would be relating to Deep Wounds. Currently, it's bugged, and thus makes slow/fast better than slow/slow. Blizz will be changing this soon. If you're going to talk about DW fury with Deep Wounds, be aware of that change.
Do you have a link to this change? I can't seem to find anything.

My biggest question for you would be your opinion on ArP for dps warriors...while waiting for the xpac I am potentially picking up a few T6 odds and ends, and possibly a badge piece or two, but people's comments about how bad ArP has become have me slightly unsure what to get. Whatcha think about it?
It's been hit pretty hard, at least at current boss AC levels. 17%ish loss on 7700ac bosses, and a whopping 43% loss on 6200ac bosses. Math will be included of course.

Krenian
10-28-2008, 03:58 PM
I'm actually eagerly awaiting Corb to write his Wrath guide so I can compare his thoughts to what I've experienced so far. It'll be interesting.

My only thing I wanna see is a slam versus hs discussion in the thread as this has been a hot topic and I'm still convinced Slam > HS due to non normalization + using a two hander for that. HS is just a lot of threat and slam with 2 hander spec + deep wounds tick makes me wanna think 18/53 or 17/54 to be the specs I'd be going for with TG.

Eagerly waiting to see the findings, Corb. Feel free to look up the DPS stuff I put up through the threads if you need to.

Kazeyonoma
10-28-2008, 04:47 PM
are you strictly going by DW, therefore only TG? or are you gonna include possible non-TG specs?

Any chance someone wants to write up an Arms DPS guide now that Meeks is a p******n?

Tatt
10-28-2008, 04:49 PM
Arms is simple right now...white attack, MS, slam, bladestorm...OH SHIT AGGRO...dead...rinse and repeat for even greater repair bills :)

Corbusier
10-28-2008, 06:06 PM
are you strictly going by DW, therefore only TG? or are you gonna include possible non-TG specs?

Any chance someone wants to write up an Arms DPS guide now that Meeks is a p******n?

From my napkin math so far, a TG build (18/53 or so) will beat any non-TG fury spec. But I will test when I hit 80.

I do not plan to do an arms guide at this time, but who knows.

ickotot
10-29-2008, 04:06 AM
I'm just starting out as a warrior (I was a hunter before) and I created a dwarf warrior...how can i maximize my DPS? what weapon should i use in order to do so? sorry noob here :D started playing wow last2 week

ebs2002
10-29-2008, 07:27 AM
Corb, the reference I saw to Deep Wounds being changed was on Elitist Jerks: [Warrior] WotLK talent Preview/Discussion - Page 138 - Elitist Jerks (http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t27758-warrior_wotlk_talent_preview_discussion/p138/#post953958)


I'm working on Arms theorycrafting to be able to write an arms guide. Just with how different arms is, it's not easy. Fury didn't get overhauled that much, the 51pt talent just gives you bigger weapons and makes you need more hit rating. Easy to comprehend. The rotation hasn't really changed much.

Arms has been greatly changed. Rend>Overpower, Slam not resetting the swing timer, Sudden Death. Lots of changes that completely change the math.

The rotation, especially, is grossly different. There's a right time and a wrong time to execute. Some gear/buff makeups, you shouldn't use Mortal Strike at all; other levels, you need to or you're losing a ton of DPS.

But to answer that question, I do plan on writing an arms guide, once I get everything else done.

Krenian
10-29-2008, 08:41 AM
What ebs said is pretty much true from what I've seen. The standard BT/WW rotation will stay put, but it's the dump that I'm more interested in.

Slam versus Heroic Strike. Even with a 1.5 second timer, you could slam once in your rotation without hurting your dps and depending weapon speed and crit chance, you probably could potentially put out more dps with less worry about pulling threat.

ebs2002
10-29-2008, 09:09 AM
I dunno about that, Tony.

Slam on a 1.5sec timer is horrible for my gear. Using my spreadsheet without Imp Slam:

Slam's delay of my white swing timer costs me an average 621dmg and 13.1rage. Average damage of my slam winds up being 590, or 21 Dmg/Rage, taking the losses into consideration.

That's with only one 2h weapon equipped. A second 2her would increase my rage generated from white attacks even higher, which would drive up my rage cost and damage lost from slamming.

(Just to compare the numbers, with the same stats and spec, but 2/2 Imp Slam, I'm losing 4.4rage, 207dmg, and slam deals an average of 1170 for an average of 60dmg/rage). I can't imagine Heroic Strike NOT being a better dump.

Corbusier
10-29-2008, 09:19 AM
I can't imagine Heroic Strike NOT being a better dump.

Agreed. Slam works if you don't have haste buffs beyond flurry, or at least that's how it's looking in my testing. Once you get in a raid environment, you tend to be swinging a lot faster, not to mention moving around more often than not.

ebs2002
10-29-2008, 09:39 AM
Windfury Totem: Rage's best friend, Slam's worst enemy.

Krenian
10-29-2008, 02:16 PM
Huh. Never really thought of Haste really causing a problem...interesting to see what the findings will come up with now. =/

ebs2002
10-29-2008, 02:28 PM
It's not a problem, per se. I haven't worked out the math, but haste will:
a) increase your rage
b) increase your white DPS
c) decrease the effectiveness of slam, which leads to
d) cause you to execute for more rage

You'll lose some Dmg-per-Rage in your rotation, but gain white dps and more rage, which *should* be a net increase in DPS.

Krenian
10-30-2008, 12:18 AM
So I guess Haste is going to become beneficial in the two main specs for PvE then.

Will help with Arms by giving more rage to execute with

Will help fury quicken the two slow handers to generate more rage and more hits which should give more dps.

I guess we'll be seeing a lot of haste related items. Not sure if I wanna become a rogue though =/

ebs2002
10-30-2008, 07:16 AM
Even with a ton of haste, you'll be nowhere near a rogue. I'm using a faster weapon (BoH) and have a decent amount of haste (109), and with WF totem I'm swinging at 2.63speed. That's still slower than most main-hand weapons, and I don't have flurry.

Granted, I could up my haste rating to 200 if I wanted to, but that only drops me to 2.52spd. Not much to worry about :)

Elan
11-17-2008, 12:37 AM
Tonight with a shaman i was able to drop my speed to 1.6 on mh and oh as dw furry warrior.. i struggled to dump rage as fast as i could. but slam was still effective just not as much as per normal.