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uruloki
04-14-2008, 07:42 AM
is there anywhere i could see what each point of armor pen means in terms of DPS? a spreadsheet or something... i know this is specially difficult considering its more an exponential advantage than a linear one, but still interested in seeing how much it really affects my performance.

that and i want to give arms a shot at hyjal and armor pen is key for that <3

shiz98
04-14-2008, 12:58 PM
I'm a big fan of Google Docs - Armor Penetration Analysis (http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=p-p2GoLIggc7xJFZegWVhDA)

Morthengel
04-14-2008, 01:30 PM
any sunwell gear > bt/mh armor pen gear > sunwell badge gear = bt/mh haste gear > or = T5 >ZA armor pen gear > T4

based on EJ spreadsheets, which proved to be true for me except sunwell gear so far

full set upgrade from T5 to mh/bt armor pen set is around 250-600 dps increase depending on non standard buffs like WF/expose weakness/unleashed rage.

shiz98
04-14-2008, 03:06 PM
I'd question that. On a piece-to-piece basis, yes, T5 is probably better. However, once you're sitting around 33&#37; crit or so, AP/ArP gives more DPS. Given that ZA/Badge ArP drops crit in favor of ArP while offering the same or more AP, it's probably the better choice as long as you can maintain a good crit %. Also, remember that ArP stacks with itself - you can't just look at single pieces. Given these, I'd put that ZA stuff as equal or slightly better than T5 (depending on the piece - some are definitely worse).

In any case, haste gear is generally pretty crappy for an Arms warrior.

ArP is especially nice for Hyjal because the bosses there all have 6200 health.

GarrettJaxx
04-17-2008, 08:07 AM
bosses there all have 6200 health.
You meant armor right? :D

shiz98
04-17-2008, 08:33 AM
Nah, I've one-shot them with MS crits.

Thanks for catching that. :o

Morthengel
04-17-2008, 09:52 AM
I'd question that. On a piece-to-piece basis, yes, T5 is probably better. However, once you're sitting around 33% crit or so, AP/ArP gives more DPS. Given that ZA/Badge ArP drops crit in favor of ArP while offering the same or more AP, it's probably the better choice as long as you can maintain a good crit %. Also, remember that ArP stacks with itself - you can't just look at single pieces. Given these, I'd put that ZA stuff as equal or slightly better than T5 (depending on the piece - some are definitely worse).

In any case, haste gear is generally pretty crappy for an Arms warrior.

ArP is especially nice for Hyjal because the bosses there all have 6200 health.

Problem with ZA/2.3 badge gear is when you replace it by T5 you lose too much of your basic stats. With MH/BT gear you keep or slightly improve your basic stats and stack a good amount of srmor pen.

Gorgrim Warcry
04-17-2008, 10:40 AM
badge gear is for ret paladins :P

shiz98
04-17-2008, 03:48 PM
I would never argue that the 2.3 badge gear is better than MH/BT gear (in general, at least). Things are markedly different when you compare them against T5, however. Here are a couple examples:

Pauldrons of Gruesome Fate - Items - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=33514) vs Destroyer Shoulderblades - Items - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=30122)

Ignoring armor and stamina, here's the comparison of the T5 shoulders to the badge shoulders:
-6 STR
-5 Hit Rating
+20 Crit Rating
-154 ArP
+2 Sockets

So yeah, given some socketing, you could probably come out to the T5 shoulders having +24 Crit Rating compared to 154 ArP. The choice obviously depends on gear, but for most warriors, the badge shoulders probably come out on top. This is due to the limited effectiveness of crit past ~32% or so, which most warriors at this level should be past.

Gloves wise, T5 is definitely better unless you need +hit. The T5 pants are probably better in most cases, but due to the flexibility the sockets give you on the badge pants, combined with the massive amount of hit, they come out about equal.

Here's an interesting comparison:
Red Belt of Battle - Items - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=30032) vs Chain of Unleashed Rage - Items - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=33331)

RBoB gives the following over the badge belt:
+7 STR
+24 Crit Rating
-154 ArP

The two are actually pretty close, once again depending on how much crit you have.

That's what nice about the badge gear: it's quite useful if you already have high amounts of crit. ArP is a fantastic stat, and with the badge gear you have the option of dropping crit for it, while roughly maintaining the same amount of ArP. Take the badge helm, for example. Compared to the T5 helm, it has more +Hit and drastically less Crit rating. When you consider the different socket types, however, it would actually make a better choice than the T5 helm in some cases.


Even when we're looking at T6 level gear, the 2.3 badge gear holds out pretty well. Compare the badge shoulders to Blood-stained Pauldrons - Items - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=30866)

Once again, it boils down to how much crit you already have. Now, the balance is definitely more in favor of the Hyjal shoulders than it was Vs. T5, but the badge piece is still viable.

Once you get a decent part of the way through Hyjal/BT, yes the gear there gets much better than the 2.3 badge gear. However, you could get there on 2.3 badge gear and still do quite well, provided you balance the gear out with other crit gear.

stoebz
04-29-2008, 08:21 AM
uruloki!!! I didnt know you post here :) But ya, try out arms, I think you'd love raidng as it. I raid arms now and I enjoy it more than fury.

uruloki
04-30-2008, 07:38 AM
i saw u sitting around shat the other day with cat's... man i want it. i think after i get that is when i will really start worrying seriously about spending money on amrs set. Its fairly good as it is, but i cant wait for that thing.

he should be dead by the end of this week. wewt!

GarrettJaxx
05-06-2008, 11:53 AM
Speakin' of Armor Penetration. Looked down recently and realized I am sporting about 780 unbuffed Armor Pen, but at the expense of a good amount of crit.

Darr's Armory Link
(http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Eitrigg&n=Darranna)

Now, I'm at 780 Armor Penetration, with a nice dose of unbuffed AP (1954 is the highest I can get with gear atm). Hit's fine (172). Crit, lower than I've ever allowed (again, 26.83&#37;).

Normally I go with at least 29% crit, but have to wear gear that drops AP to 1883, and Armor Penetration to around 630. I've been feeling, to use Corb's terms, like I was hitting 'like a wet noodle' though, and so I jacked AP.

I'm wondering, any thoughts on the boost to AP/ArmPen but reduction in crit. Is this just silly to consider? I can get to 28.5% crit and 630 ArP with the same basic amount of AP, is that my best move or do you guys think Armor Pen might scale so well for me that it's ok to have a relatively low crit %.

Running Hyjal and SSC/TK but not more than once per week on DKP so while new gear will come, it won't come weekly. Would love your thoughts.

-Darr (Garrett)

GarrettJaxx
05-08-2008, 08:20 AM
/bump - Would love any thoughts guys. Posted this on WoW cause there weren't any replies here, and all I got was a keylogger reply, and some numnuts telling me to run with a Feral druid. Does anyone have an idea? Or, is this basically the 'thin line we run' at this stage of t5 gearing?

Gorgrim Warcry
05-08-2008, 09:06 AM
Is that crit on Zerker stance? If it is yeah I think thats a bit to low, I stay around 29 currently with 1100ish arp. I luckily got he Gorefiend axe to drop and im now around 33 with axe spec.

You really shouldnt be sacrificing crit/str for ArP I cant look at your armory from work so I dont know what your wearing but you said teir 5 and at this point you shouldnt be concentrating on ArP it will come with teir 6 with out you even trying to get it.

Even the crit on teir 6 gear is terribly low if you ask me, barely cracking 30 with the best pieces of it. I would be think we should be sitting around 40 in the best gear in the game.

shiz98
05-08-2008, 10:18 AM
I'm in a similar situation - high ArP (927) at the expense of a bit of crit (33% in zerker stance). My basic aim for crit is to keep it high enough to have BF up constantly, and to have near-constant Flurry uptime.

Once you're past that point, Crit is a fairly lackluster DPS stat compared to AP/ArP.

Kazeyonoma
05-08-2008, 10:20 AM
if you're AP buffed is over 4000 then arP and crit both overtake AP in terms of scaling.

BUT, since crit is factored in as much as ArP, i would argue that keeping your overall crit higher is a better option than sacrificing for ArP. ArP is good when its itemized WITH your stats, if you have to dip your crit that Low, i'd say don't do it.

GarrettJaxx
05-08-2008, 03:00 PM
I'm convinced. I knew it too, but just didn't want my AP to be so low. Silly. Anyway, the shoulders and belt are actually the best I can get now - can't find anyone to make RBB and haven't seen t5 or Wardancer or even Bloodstained yet (but soon!). But gem-wise, I'm grabbing back a few crit gems to get up to at least 29% and I may even equip PotPerilous over Aldor Sunwell (though not sure that's the right move, easy to test). Thanks y'all.:D

Dragaan
05-08-2008, 04:00 PM
You should not sacrifice too much basic stats for ArP (although it is a GREAT stat). Someone earlier was comparing plate t5 shoulders and even the ones from hyjal to the 2.3 badge reward shoulders... That is just wrong. T5 are quite a bit better. Hyjal shoulders are a TON better. Ive played with ArP (in fury spec) and got mine up to 1500 passive (and double executioner enchants). I did solid DPS and thought I was set. Then I discovered maxdps and I realized that crit/ap are still king if you have to take one stat over another. I dropped my ArP down to about 550 and boosted crit by a few &#37; and my dps skyrocketed. I'm usually a tank, but I can do 1400-1500+ dps in PROT spec (with fury gear on). Look for ArP, but never sacrifice all that crit/ap for it.

shiz98
05-09-2008, 08:34 PM
Aye, that would be me.

To give some numbers backing up what I said, with my ArP set (T4 legs, helm, gloves, 2.3 badge bracers, belt, and shoulders, ArP T6 neck, 2.4 badge ring, S3 pvp ring, dory's embrace, T3 BS chest, ZA boots, shard and hourglass) I do 1068 DPS according to the EJ spreadsheet.

Swap in the Lurker bracers, Rage shoulders, RBoB, T5 pants, and the DPS gain is 20. Not exactly earth-shattering.

(Apologies for the nasty gear listing - I'm prot right now, so Armory is useless...)

That being said, yeah, balance is the key. The nice thing about ArP is that you don't have to stack too much. Hitting about 1k and bringing executioner along will cap you for some (many?) bosses.

Corbusier
05-10-2008, 09:17 AM
That being said, yeah, balance is the key. The nice thing about ArP is that you don't have to stack too much. Hitting about 1k and bringing executioner along will cap you for some (many?) bosses.
1350 is the "soft cap" on low armor bosses, assuming you have executioner. add 1500 to that for most BT bosses.