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Ciderhelm
04-13-2008, 09:54 PM
TankSpot Podcast #5
Understanding Tank Gear
Patrick O'Callahan "Ciderhelm" and Josh Allen "Lore"
1:20:16


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http://media.libsyn.com/media/ciderhelm/Understanding_Tank_Gear.mp3

Last Week's Tanking Podcast:
User Interface, Keybinds, Macros & Hardware (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/ts-podcasts/36392-ts-podcast-2-ui-keybinds-macros-hardware.html)

Podcast Information
This podcast covers many of the details regarding tank gearing choices for Warriors and Paladins. It begins with some of the trivia and an explanation of where stats for handling damage and stats for building Threat are in relation to each other. It includes a lengthy advice and suggestions section covering gear choices, gems, enchants, and other aspects of gear theory. Whether you know a lot about theory or not, this will be a good way to pass farming time.

When available, Donors (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/general-discussion/36281-tankspot-donation-information.html) will see both the outlines and podcasts in advance of their post date.


Pre-Recording Outline
The following is a rough bullet point created prior to recording. Additions were made during recording that are not represented in this.

Intro
-Talking about Stats and Gearing
-Questions
-First, news! Grab shirt and model it
-Doing this podcast live. We may need to move to own vent server
-Also, libsyn, subscribe through Itunes now
-This topic is general advice for 5-man and raid tanks
--Assumes you know basics

Questions for Lore


Stat Trivia
-Defense
--Superior Stat
---Not same gem color as Dodge
-Dodge
-Not from behind!
-limits crushings best
--eat charges!
-Parry
-Speed up
--Counterattack Lodestone
-Block
--Works on ranged attacks


Discuss Threat/Defense Stats
-Multipliers vs. Base Stats

Handling Damage
-Stamina/Armor EH
-Defense/Avoidance
-Block Rating
-Block Value
--Dual Purpose (warrior)
--Still good for AOE tanking (paladin)

Threat
-Expertise
--Dual Purpose
-Hit
--Reduces taunt resists as well
-Block Value
-Strength
--Don't underestimate
--Buff for this
-Spell Damage (Paladin)
--Best threat stat in any circumstance
-Spell Hit & Intellect (Paladin)
--Nice to have but not something to worry about

-Weapon Damage, Speed
--Heroic Strike outweighs Devastate
---Less cost per Heroic w/ fast weap as well
--More consistent, reliable rage gen
--Tank-oriented weapons are fast

--If Parries suck, why not use a slower weapon?
---If you're an off-tank
---If you're having no problems w/ threat
---If your stats can compensate for it


Advice, Suggestions
-Use trinkets, rings to balance gear

-490 is not a goal or peak
--minimum
--anticipation still good after this

-Gear normally stacked w/ Avoidance already
--But know when Avoidance genuinely helps
---Prince, Karathress Shaman, Morogrim
--Don't stack it just for kicks

-Gems, generally SSOE
--Can slide by anything w/ this

-Enchants, generally Stamina
--Cloak: Kind of a tossup
--Gloves: 2% threat gives the best overall benefit
--150 HP to chest gives more hp than 10 stam armor kit even with scaling
--Executioner (Warrior)/40 Spelldamage(Paladin) for threat, OR Mongoose for avoidance
--Can enchant for defense if you really need it for 490 (ZA/Badge gear)

-Consumables
--Stamina food
--Fortification Flask
--(Paladin) Wizard Oil
--Can use elixirs for situational differences

-Tanking sets are situational
--like everything else
--Formulas that work for DPS roles don't work for tanks
---based off bosses, not players

-Important to know your role
--Off-tanks generally take less burst
---Avoidance can be better for them

-Upgrades are upgrades
--stats are all tank?
--from higher boss?
---Don't get caught with gear three tiers behind b/c of something you read
---Check gear forums for more info


References
Satrina's Evil Empire Guides (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/evil-empire-guides/)
Effective Health Theory (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/tankspot-library/1060-effective-health-theory.html)
Wanderlei's On Avoidance (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/evil-empire-guides/33106-wanderlei-avoidance.html)
Life After 490 Defense (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/evil-empire-guides/33580-life-after-490-defense.html)
TankSpot Gear Lists & Rankings (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/gear-lists-rankings/)
Parry Combat Log Example (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=75381044&sid=1&pageNo=7#129)


Corrections & Clarifications
Correction: 5:23 has an editing error; there are 10-20 seconds of repeated audio.

Clarification: If you Parry an attack, a check is made that determines how much time is left on your next normal swing. If you have more than 60% of the time left before a swing would occur, then a flat 40% reduction will occur to your swing time. If you have between 20% and 60%, a flat 20% reduction will occur to your swing time. If you have less than 20%, no reduction will occur.

Clarification: Stats for handling damage and stats for Threat are prioritized in order of importance. Use the pre-recording outline to see the recommended order, from top to bottom.

Clarification: Expertise has a ~3.9 to 1 Expertise conversion. 1 Expertise provides a Dodge and Parry reduction of 0.25%, essentially becoming 0.5% chance to Hit.

Clarification: Agility is a good stat with genuine benefits; however, it's very uncommon, and thus left out of most discussions. Armor Penetration for tanks is the same.

Clarification: I am referring to The Night Blade, not Nightblade.

Clarification: Not holding on to items substantially below your level doesn't always hold true, especially with trinkets and special-use items. For instance, Gnomeregan Auto-Blocker 600 from Sapphiron is still an amazing and unique trinket for certain things, and Styleen's Impeding Scarab can still find uses for passive uncrushable sets.


Ask Me Anything -- What Are Your Questions?
Got a question or discussion subject? Post here or send myself or Lore a private message through our forums!

Taelas
04-13-2008, 11:52 PM
Nice podcast; very interesting. Very informative, though I disagree with you on several points. The value of block rating and strength, for instance -- while they are not bad stats (that is, they do offer a tangible benefit), they are stats that I would not itemize for normally. Other stats are plain and simply better. Also, on the concept of wearing "out-dated" gear, while I agree in principle, there are items that are simply not replacable, despite other items having generally better stats. As an example, look at three of the four Blackwing Lair trinkets -- Drake Fang Talisman, Styleen's Impeding Scarab, Neltharion's Tear, Rejuvenating Gem. The latter three are itemized so perfectly, they can last well into 70 end-game... despite being level 60 BWL epics. Another example is Flesh Beast's Metal Greaves -- for a paladin tank, these boots will not get replaced till you get Boots of Elusion, or until you can get to 102.4% reliably without them, whichever happens first.

Anyway, the point is, just because an item is "outdated", and there are technically better items for their slots, it doesn't mean that the item doesn't have a use. Don't get rid of a piece of gear because you've gotten an upgrade for the slot unless you are absolutely sure that the upgrade is better in all situations.

Ciderhelm
04-14-2008, 12:05 AM
Nice podcast; very interesting. Very informative, though I disagree with you on several points. The value of block rating and strength, for instance -- while they are not bad stats (that is, they do offer a tangible benefit), they are stats that I would not itemize for normally. Other stats are plain and simply better.

The value of Block Rating and Strength were purposely at the bottom of the list in their respective categories. The reason they were brought up was to make tanks aware that they are still beneficial stats, but they aren't as beneficial as other stats -- i.e. don't sweat it if you have them, but when prioritizing, they're at the bottom.

How many WWS parses do you see where the tank doesn't have Battle Shout, even though there were other Warriors in the raid, and even though DPS was threat capped? Enough that it was worth bringing up. I believe another example was Faith in Felsteel and Strength bonuses found on early tanking gear, both of which are reasonable.



Also, on the concept of wearing "out-dated" gear, while I agree in principle, there are items that are simply not replacable, despite other items having generally better stats. As an example, look at three of the four Blackwing Lair trinkets -- Drake Fang Talisman, Styleen's Impeding Scarab, Neltharion's Tear, Rejuvenating Gem. The latter three are itemized so perfectly, they can last well into 70 end-game... despite being level 60 BWL epics. Another example is Flesh Beast's Metal Greaves -- for a paladin tank, these boots will not get replaced till you get Boots of Elusion, or until you can get to 102.4% reliably without them, whichever happens first.

Anyway, the point is, just because an item is "outdated", and there are technically better items for their slots, it doesn't mean that the item doesn't have a use. Don't get rid of a piece of gear because you've gotten an upgrade for the slot unless you are absolutely sure that the upgrade is better in all situations.
This is a good clarification and I'll put this into the original thread as such. This specifically applies to trinkets, though, and only in extreme situations will it apply to non-trinkets. Even with trinkets, it's strange to see people stack pre-raid Stamina trinkets over amazingly well suited tanking trinkets (which is partly a fault of pushing EH as hard as I did).

Taelas
04-14-2008, 12:20 AM
The value of Block Rating and Strength were purposely at the bottom of the list in their respective categories. The reason they were brought up was to make tanks aware that they are still beneficial stats, but they aren't as beneficial as other stats -- i.e. don't sweat it if you have them, but when prioritizing, they're at the bottom.

How many WWS parses do you see where the tank doesn't have Battle Shout, even though there were other Warriors in the raid, and even though DPS was threat capped? Enough that it was worth bringing up. I believe another example was Faith in Felsteel and Strength bonuses found on early tanking gear, both of which are reasonable.
Right, I suppose the benefit of them can get a little, uh, "lost in translation", so to speak.


This is a good clarification and I'll put this into the original thread as such. This specifically applies to trinkets, though, and only in extreme situations will it apply to non-trinkets. Even with trinkets, it's strange to see people stack pre-raid Stamina trinkets over amazingly well suited tanking trinkets (which is partly a fault of pushing EH as hard as I did).
More specifically, it applies to any item which has unique abilities, or unusually high stats in one area. This often applies to trinkets, but it also applies to other items. Idols/relics naturally, as they are basically a limited extra trinket slot for druids and paladins, but also shields (Petrified Lichen Guard, Shield of the Wayward Footman) -- Nightfall is another example (and you kept calling it Nightblade in the podcast, btw :p). I can't really think of others at the moment, but I'm pretty certain they are there.

Ciderhelm
04-14-2008, 12:22 AM
Nightfall is another example (and you kept calling it Nightblade in the podcast, btw :p). I can't really think of others at the moment, but I'm pretty certain they are there.

Sir:
The Night Blade

Carry on!

Taelas
04-14-2008, 12:26 AM
>_< Blargh. Blizzard's fault for naming two weapons essentially the same!

Aughban
04-14-2008, 01:05 AM
sounds interesting, wish i had brought my MP3 cable with me could have listened to this on the bus. Ah well it can wait till later.

Augh

Lilie
04-14-2008, 07:50 AM
Just by way of update for Cider- I still can't seem to find the podcast on the Itunes store. I'm wondering if it still needs time to register there? Just letting you know...

Ciderhelm
04-14-2008, 07:53 AM
Just by way of update for Cider- I still can't seem to find the podcast on the Itunes store. I'm wondering if it still needs time to register there? Just letting you know...

My stats page is showing 80ish people have subscribed via iTunes. I'm not familiar w/ the interface, so I honestly can't help you, but people are either getting it directly or indirectly at the moment.

I do know I got a "this could take a few days" warning when I submitted the actual information to iTunes, which was yesterday or the day before.

Lore
04-14-2008, 07:57 AM
To subscribe via iTunes directly, in the meantime:

Go to Advanced->Subscribe to Podcast...

In the box that pops up, put this link: Ciderhelm (http://ciderhelm.libsyn.com/rss/)

Click OK

Kavtor
04-14-2008, 09:28 AM
Is anyone else having a problem with the mp3 link cutting out early? I only receive about the first 75&#37; of the cast. Cider I think is just finished discussing executioner, and Lore speaks up, and the cast stops. I don't think I'm receiving the full file, I'll have to try later to get the rest.

Ciderhelm
04-14-2008, 09:29 AM
Does direct download work, or is that what's giving you the issue?

Honorshammer
04-14-2008, 10:01 AM
RE: Enchant discussion

For the cloak enchant, the new 12 Def to Cloak is the one that I've been putting on my cloak.

1. You near the amount of avoidance you would get from 12 Dodge

2. The badge / ZA gear (which I have quite a bit of) seems a bit lacking in Defense.

I also like the +15 Def to chest, but the 150 health is a strong chioce as well.

Edit: Next time I should listen to the whole podcast before I post. Lore covered it a little later in the podcast.

Threat Flask: Flask of Blinding Light. I use these on fights like VR.

Cynocide
04-14-2008, 10:12 AM
Excellent podcast!

Skeletaur
04-14-2008, 11:15 AM
Great listen guys.

Question.. you seem very solid on the fact that you should be 490 def minimum. Is this mostly due to the "uncrittable" aspect? (IE are you taking minor amounts of resilience into account)

I ask because I am looking to grab the S4 Chest, for a massive massive Sta + Armor gain (I have the Aldor chest), but I will lose 46 def rating. Couple this with my Executioner enchanted Quickening Blade of the Prince, also looking up upgrade my Felsteel Gloves with the Bonefist badge ones, and S1 shield and shoulders, I will remain uncritable with my 80+ resilience, but I will be down near 450 defence.

Would you recommend enchanting + def? Or something else?

Thanks tons, and again great listen.

Kavtor
04-14-2008, 02:06 PM
Does direct download work, or is that what's giving you the issue?

Looks like the direct download works. I'm not sure why the stream kept failing, thanks!

Mardran
04-14-2008, 03:24 PM
RE: Enchant discussion

For the cloak enchant, the new 12 Def to Cloak is the one that I've been putting on my cloak.

1. You near the amount of avoidance you would get from 12 Dodge



I actually wanted to state that as a warrior tank I now use this enchant over dodge as well for the exact reason that Cider stated in the podcast when he was talking about defense rating being superior to dodge. Having the little bit of extra block in case shield block charges are down. The trade off is -.03% avoidance for +.2% block (correct me if my math is wrong). Like Lore said, pretty much splitting hairs, but still I think its worth mentioning.

Anyway, good stuff in the podcast. Very useful information for new tanks as well as veterans looking for second opinions or to listen to for fun :p.

Aughban
04-15-2008, 02:12 AM
I actually wanted to state that as a warrior tank I now use this enchant over dodge as well for the exact reason that Cider stated in the podcast when he was talking about defense rating being superior to dodge. Having the little bit of extra block in case shield block charges are down. The trade off is -.03% avoidance for +.2% block (correct me if my math is wrong). Like Lore said, pretty much splitting hairs, but still I think its worth mentioning.

Anyway, good stuff in the podcast. Very useful information for new tanks as well as veterans looking for second opinions or to listen to for fun :p.

agreed its definatly a very reasonable tradeoff and helps to give you a cloak for all situations (i'm waiting on my MH upgrade to make the switch however), im even using the +15 def on chest rather than +150 hitpoints or +10 stam for the same reason, i would rather have the extra dodge,parry, block etc than the 150 hits points affected by my armor multiplier (hope thats right).

Huwragg
04-15-2008, 06:11 AM
Great podcast & great site, I seem to be spending more time on Tankspot than I do on WoW :)

Anyway one question about the Enchant Chest - Exceptional Health (150 health), on wowhead comments section,

(Enchant Chest - Exceptional Health - Spells - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=27957#comments)) it clearly say's

"Note that this enchant does not contribute to your stamina pool, and is therefore not buffed by Blessing of Kings or Vitality."

Is this correct & if so, would another enchant be of better use then ?

Huw :confused:

Kazeyonoma
04-15-2008, 09:23 AM
jeezus, i just finished listening to this. long one but a good one. Try to grab Kazaganthi or other PvP peepz and do a discussion about PvP sometime. I think it'd be fun. especially if you did the live podcast where people can ask questions.

Lore
04-15-2008, 09:45 AM
Great podcast & great site, I seem to be spending more time on Tankspot than I do on WoW :)

Anyway one question about the Enchant Chest - Exceptional Health (150 health), on wowhead comments section,

(Enchant Chest - Exceptional Health - Spells - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=27957#comments)) it clearly say's

"Note that this enchant does not contribute to your stamina pool, and is therefore not buffed by Blessing of Kings or Vitality."

Is this correct & if so, would another enchant be of better use then ?

Huw :confused:

Even with kings and stamina scaling bonuses, you get less than 150 HP out of the +10 stamina armor kit (which is the highest HP-focused enchant after 150 HP)

Paladin: 10 x 1.1 (Kings) x 1.1 (Combat Expertise) x 1.06 (Sacred Duty) = 12.8 = ~ 130 HP
Warrior: 10 x 1.1 (Kings) x 1.05 (Vitality) = 11.55 = ~120 HP
Druid: 10 x 1.1 (Kings) x 1.25 (Dire Bear) = 13.75 = ~140 HP

(Note that I'm not innately familiar with Druids so I might be forgetting something)

EDIT: I was forgetting something for Druids (the Heart of the Wild talent).

Druid: 10 x 1.1 (Kings) x 1.25 (Dire Bear) x 1.2 (HotW) = 16.5 = 160 or 170 HP, depending on which way it rounds off. So the 10 stamina armor kit is better than 150 HP for Druids.

kittikat
04-15-2008, 10:09 AM
Clarification: Expertise has a ~3.9% to 1 Expertise conversion. 1 Expertise provides a Dodge and Parry reduction of 0.25%, essentially becoming 0.5% chance to Hit.
Expertise has a ~3.9[Not Percentile] to 1 Expertise conversion. 1 Expertise provides a Dodge and Parry reduction of 0.25%, essentially becoming 0.5% chance to Hit.

Note that Expertise is better for tanking than Hit because of the reduction in Parry Gibs.

Ciderhelm
04-15-2008, 10:14 AM
Expertise has a ~3.9[Not Percentile] to 1 Expertise conversion. 1 Expertise provides a Dodge and Parry reduction of 0.25%, essentially becoming 0.5% chance to Hit.
Thanks for catching that.


Note that Expertise is better for tanking than Hit because of the reduction in Parry Gibs.

Redundant kat didn't listen to podcast!

kittikat
04-15-2008, 10:19 AM
I was just recapping :(

Don't be so mean, buddy!!!

Siona
04-15-2008, 07:56 PM
Great listen guys.

Question.. you seem very solid on the fact that you should be 490 def minimum. Is this mostly due to the "uncrittable" aspect? (IE are you taking minor amounts of resilience into account)

I ask because I am looking to grab the S4 Chest, for a massive massive Sta + Armor gain (I have the Aldor chest), but I will lose 46 def rating. Couple this with my Executioner enchanted Quickening Blade of the Prince, also looking up upgrade my Felsteel Gloves with the Bonefist badge ones, and S1 shield and shoulders, I will remain uncritable with my 80+ resilience, but I will be down near 450 defence.

Would you recommend enchanting + def? Or something else?

Thanks tons, and again great listen.

My opinion on this, and I could be wrong:

You NEED 490 Defense at a minimum because it makes you uncrittable. Beyond uncrittable, defense is still a great stat, and as Cider said in the podcast, is really the best avoidance stat you can get.

I'm finding it hard to illustrate what I'm trying to say without a specific example, so I'll just bring the example in immediately.

If you've been running level 70 five person dungeons, you should be able to get Aegis of the Sunbird or Platinum Shield of the Valorous relatively quickly. Your next options for shield upgrades from PvE are Crest of the Sha'tar from exalted with the Sha'tar, Azure Shield of Coldarra from badges, and Shield of Impenetrable Darkness from Karazhan. However, there is also Gladiator's Shield Wall available for easy to obtain honor points. The PvP shield is a massive upgrade to either of the blue dungeon shields. The armor, stamina, and block are so far above the blue shields that there is really no comparison. Here, the resilience also means you are not losing uncrittability by dropping the blue shield with defense. The PvP is also better than Crest of the Sha'tar. It has 2 more block, 2 more stamina, and 732 armor, while sacrificing 13 Defense rating and 3 Dodge rating. The PvP shield represents a much bigger increase to effective health, big enough to offset the decrease in avoidance in my opinion, and the resilience from the shield, while not adding to your avoidance, allows you to remain uncrittable even though your defense may have dropped below 490. How does the PvP shield compare to the badge shield or the Kara shield? It's about the same. Better for effective health still, but the avoidance gap is closed a lot.

I picked up the PvP shield as my first honor item for a couple of reasons. One, I was using Aegis of the Sunbird and the upgrade to an epic shield of any kind is one of the biggest single upgrades you can make when going from blues to epics. Two, I knew there were a ton of badge items that I wanted and the shield was among the less impressive since it had an upgrade in Kara where others didn't have upgrades until SSC/TK or beyond (such as Brooch of Deftness or Bracers of the Ancient Phalanx). By getting the PvP shield, I was saving myself from having to buy a badge item that I thought would be replaced soon.

Note that in 2.4 Dawnforged Defender can be reliably (ie no random number generator) obtained from exalted with Shattered Sun Offensive if you are willing to put in the time to get it. It is an overall better shield than Gladiator's Shield Wall or Shield of Impenetrable Darkness, though it doesn't have defense so you are going to have to make up that defense elsewhere.

With a shield with resilience, you have a bit of flexibility when upgrading from blues to epics as well. For instance, I have rotten luck with tanking chest drops. I was still using Jade-Skull Breastplate when Bloodstained Elven Battlevest dropped for me in Zul'Aman. Even though it's a DPS chest piece, the increase in stamina and armor was too big for me to pass up, even though I was losing defense and shield block rating. As Cider said in the podcast, sometimes an item is just way better even if you have to sacrifice a little bit in one area. Since I still had the PvP shield (as it turns out, I have rotten luck with shields too, and shoulders for that matter, but that's another story...), I was able to swap in the epic DPS chest piece with no fuss about losing the defense from Jade-Skull since the resilience from the shield meant I was still uncrittable.

What I'm trying to say is this: look at it on an item to item basis. In general, you want to get uncrittable through defense if you can. Sometimes the item with resilience is just better though. This is most often the case with the shield. Getting that epic shield ASAP is one of the best things you can do. I don't think I would replace any PvE epic item with a PvP epic item even if it was from season 3 or 4, except the shield. The shield is almost itemized optimally for tanking. The other items aren't.

In your specific case, I would recommend getting the new badge chest instead of holding your breath for S4 chest since season 4 is still a ways out and, you never know, in season 4, all items may have rating requirements. I wouldn't get the season 3 chest for tanking either with the new badge one available. I would pick up the Bonefist Gauntlets, yes. Quickening Blade of the Prince with executioner works well as an aggro weapon. I wouldn't really bother with the S1 shoulders if you can help it. They really are a minor upgrade to Shoulderguards of the Bold and are a downgrade from Fanblade Pauldrons and Spaulders of Dementia as far as I'm concerned. All three are easily obtainable through level 70 dungeons and heroics, unless the random number generator hates you like it hates me. I've had the Bold shoulders since early December. :mad: My guess is that the PvP Shield will keep you uncrittable since resilience provides reduction in chance to be crit faster than def, but it you're still not at the point where you're uncrittable, then yes, you should absolutely socket for defense.

Sorry for the wall of text. lol.

fustigator
04-16-2008, 03:38 AM
Strength is slightly better for a protection warrior than block value for pure threat output when you are able to maintain a perfect threat cycle(SS, Rev, Dev, Dev).
Both Block Value(BV) and Strength(str) are base values, equally affected by the multipliers hit, crit, expertise, and armor ignore. All attacks made with either weapon or shield are equally affected by one-handed weapon specialization, so I leave that out here.
Assumptions: I assume you don't have the +10&#37; BV meta gem and opted for the stamina one instead. I assume if you're this concerned with threat you have other people to apply your debuffs.

Block Value threat: You use SS once per 6 seconds, and one BV gets you 1.3 damage per 6 seconds talented. 1.3/6 dps or 0.217dps.

Strength threat has 3 components: autoattack, 2 devastates per 6 seconds, and a small increase(1/20) to block value.
2 AP = 1 str, and 14 AP = 1 dps, so 1 str = 1/7 dps in autoattack swings. I'd like to point out that this also benefits from parry haste, perhaps 15% of your swings will be hasted and thus scale slightly better than this model.
Devastate: As far as scaling goes, you get two swings in 6 seconds that are half normalized weapon swing damage, so we can treat it as one full normalized weapon swing per 6 seconds. Yellow attacks are 2.4(str)/7 damage per strike, and 2.4(str)/42 dps in our rotation.
20 str = 1BV, so you get 1/20 benefit from the block value model from strength, or 1.3/120 dps.
Add these together, and you get .211 dps per strength, slightly lower than block value. But, increase your strength by 10% from Vitality and it increases to .232 dps/str
With only a one devastate rotation, you're looking at about .200 dps/str, so you'd have to have 21 BV to be better than 20 str in that rotation. Adjust for the fact that your hasted attacks from parries benefit more from attack power and that the harder autoattacks will generate more rage, and you having a compelling reason to put strength/stamina in your red sockets.

Note: Adjusting for the BV meta gem, it's almost exactly equal: .2333dps/BV vs a perfect cycle .2328dps/str before larger blocks cut down your rage verses larger autoattacks increasing it.

EDIT: Assuming you have a paladin with Kings in your raid, strength pulls out another 10% ahead.

ebs2002
04-17-2008, 02:22 PM
Regarding the "dodge an attack from behind" issue: what people don't realize is that if you are too close to a mob, you can be dodged/parried/blocked as if you were attacking from the front. I believe that is because there is a certain distance from the mob where it always acts like you're in front of him (and this is why you can pull some tricks one-tanking Moroes)

atlantusSC
04-23-2008, 07:49 AM
First love the site and love the podcasts! I am really happy you started putting them out makes for a good day at work and I have turned my guild onto them as well. However, I am having issues downloading or even getting this stream to play. I only get the first 5 secs of the cast. I have not had this problem with the rest. Just wondering if it is me or if it has an error in the stream?

Thanks

atlantusSC

cagneyed
06-03-2008, 09:34 AM
Regarding the question posed to Lore early in the podcast about what he does for the mana draining mobs in the SSO dailies:
I focus on the Fiends and steer clear of the Devourers. When the Fiends do their mana drain, it's a cleansable debuff. When I see that up, I'll either stun them or cleanse myself. If I accidentally pull a Devourer, I'll stun them up front and also spam all of my damage dealing abilities (consecrate, judgement) as soon as they are available. If they are draining your mana, you might as well drain it first.

zaul
11-05-2008, 09:51 PM
Yes, I'm replying to an old podcast, but I'm new to his site, and thought I'd catch up during the late our of endless farming.

Ciderhelm, you stress that it's not possible to dodge when hit from behind, but it is indeed possible. Having played a rogue as my main from MC and up through Naxx back at 60, before I rolled warrior, and having PvPed a-bloody-lot, I'll go and prove you wrong. Or well, I can hardly prove you wrong without screenshots or anything, but what the hell. I've - and actually quite a few times - had my backstabs dodged. Yes, indeed. Dodged. And I know of several other rogues having seen this "bug"/glitch. I've even taken part of several official forum discussions on the wow-europe boards about this. And keeping in mind that you need to be behind the target to be able to even execute a backstab, having a backstab dodged means dodging from behind is indeed possible.

This is a server-client latency issue though, and it's true that it's a basic mechanic in WoW that you're not ment to/cannot dodge an attack coming from behind'ya. But it does happen! We can also open a discussion on advanced evolving maths in a equation with latency and it's effect on your client and it's communication with the server. There will always be situations where the general maths/rules of wow fail. Like being crit immune, but still being crit. That has happened before, and will happen again. You cannot avoid this 100% when playing a game over the internet, with the way numbers evolve when time and latency goes into the equation. But that's another discussion.

Just wanted to through that out there, for everyone stating; "Amagad, i R ze l335zor, and I dodge allz fr0nn b3hinD!! lal"

-Zaul

Ashyn
11-05-2008, 10:00 PM
Yes, I'm replying to an old podcast, but I'm new to his site, and thought I'd catch up during the late our of endless farming.

Ciderhelm, you stress that it's not possible to dodge when hit from behind, but it is indeed possible. Having played a rogue as my main from MC and up through Naxx back at 60, before I rolled warrior, and having PvPed a-bloody-lot, I'll go and prove you wrong. Or well, I can hardly prove you wrong without screenshots or anything, but what the hell. I've - and actually quite a few times - had my backstabs dodged. Yes, indeed. Dodged. And I know of several other rogues having seen this "bug"/glitch. I've even taken part of several official forum discussions on the wow-europe boards about this. And keeping in mind that you need to be behind the target to be able to even execute a backstab, having a backstab dodged means dodging from behind is indeed possible.

This is a server-client latency issue though, and it's true that it's a basic mechanic in WoW that you're not ment to/cannot dodge an attack coming from behind'ya. But it does happen! We can also open a discussion on advanced evolving maths in a equation with latency and it's effect on your client and it's communication with the server. There will always be situations where the general maths/rules of wow fail. Like being crit immune, but still being crit. That has happened before, and will happen again. You cannot avoid this 100% when playing a game over the internet, with the way numbers evolve when time and latency goes into the equation. But that's another discussion.

Just wanted to through that out there, for everyone stating; "Amagad, i R ze l335zor, and I dodge allz fr0nn b3hinD!! lal"

-Zaul

I don't doubt your experience at all. However I think the key issue here is "PVP", where yea, you are faced with other human controlled toons and latency issues both server and client side.

I honestly can't recall ever dodging an attacker (when they are behind me) in a PVE setting, be it world mob, 5-man or raid. This is not to say it has "never" happened and it just slipped my attention, but I honestly don't recall it.

zaul
11-06-2008, 07:14 AM
Absolutely true - and btw, nice how I managed to spell 'trow', 'through' :mad:. It's just the phrasing "Dodging from behind isn't possible whatsoever blabla..." should have been something along the lines of; "It's a general mechanic in WoW that you cannot dodge from behind, thought certain situations may bend that rule due to latency issues and stuff like that, though, as you say youself, this is by far mostly a PvP 'issue'". That way you'll avoid annoying fellas like me posting stupid posts like this one ;)

The curse of being a podcaster. Or well, the curse of podcasting to rhetorically minded completists. I remember the early Octale and Hordac podcasts, and how the ammount of "corrections" through e-mails, has changed how wellthought their phrasing has become.

But once more I'll stop rambling randomly

Darksend
11-06-2008, 07:26 AM
there is a "tip" on the login screen

"NPCs have a chance to dodge from behind, players do not"


also, blizzard removed parry from the hit table on any attack that requires the person to be behind to use (at least they were planning to not sure if that went in once mutilate got changed)

Kazeyonoma
11-06-2008, 10:13 AM
so yeh, latency doesn't = change in podcast. It's how the game is coded, you do not dodge attacks from behind in pvp, the fact that the person was strafing does not = exception to the rule, he just beat you in pvp.

Horacio
11-07-2008, 08:06 AM
When people listen to old Podcasts, Lore gets royalty checks like Epstien from reruns of 'Welcome Back Kotter"

Ashyn
11-07-2008, 09:05 AM
When people listen to old Podcasts, Lore gets royalty checks like Epstien from reruns of 'Welcome Back Kotter"

orly?

Methestos
01-04-2009, 06:53 PM
Most of the key aspects of gearing as a prot warrior have not changed even now that WOTLK has been released, making this podcast worthwhile for any newer tanks. Perhaps it would be a good idea to make a point of treating the effect of block value on effective health, as many people do not understand its mechanics. Tanks that understand that the value/worth of a given stat on their gear changes based on what the incoming damage will resemble tend to have an advantage.