View Full Version : Different Tanks.
04-11-2008, 03:04 PM
This is my very first time posting and I'm new, so I don't know if this has been covered somewhere else. I've been looking for this information for sometime though and hope everyone here can help.
My guild only uses Prot warriors for raid bosses. The only 2 exceptions were Leo, and FLK once when our Prot warriors couldn't make it that night. They loved prot pallies when we hit Leo, but now we are just "great" trash tanks.
I made a post on our forums about how it would be good to have different types of tanks tank different bosses, since certain tanks work better VS different tanks. Pretty the overall response was they didn't think this was a good idea.
I was under the impression that in BC Blizzard made certain bosses better for certain tanks, this way they made them all valuable.
My question is, is this true? or is a Prot warrior the best tank for all? and what "types" of bosses would feral druids, or Prot pallies, or Prot warriors be better for? ( Fast swinging, or slow, so on and so on.)
04-11-2008, 03:57 PM
Most of my time raiding is spent in thrash mobs, and paladins and druids excel in that.
For bosses, if you have 3 equally skilled and geared tanks, a warrior, a druid and a pally, most of the time the warrior will be the choice to tank the toughest mob, because of the panic buttons.
Otherwise just use your guilds best player, whatever the class.
04-11-2008, 04:04 PM
It isn't so much that BC made pallies and druids viable for tanking end game progression raid bosses so much as BC made them viable for tanking period. Pre-BC wasn't a good era for tanking paladins and druids. In my progression level (3/4 5/6 + rage in MH) I haven't met a boss where I thought it would be a lot better to have a pally or druid MT. We once tried Tidewalker with a druid and it was a gib-tastic disaster. The one exception might be a paladin for a Leo.
That said, paladins and druids are awesome, vital support tanks in a raid. I grown to myself everytime we run TK or do Tidewalker's trash without a prot pally. They also really shine in MH. Druids make excellent OTs, especially for a boss like Gruul where the OT needs to stay 2nd on melee threat while taking little damage to generate rage.
04-11-2008, 05:00 PM
It is true, but there's a caveat. Any boss in the game can be tanked adequately by a warrior. The same is not true for druids (Kael'thas, Illidan, RoS phase 2) or paladins (RoS phase 2), though they can tank every other encounter except those, at least to my knowledge. So you won't go wrong by using a warrior, no matter what boss you're talking about. It'd be easier to use a Protection paladin on, say, Morogrim, or Leotheras, but it's not required.
Most of the time, a Protection paladin will be delegated to AE-tanking jobs because that is what they excel at. Morogrim's adds, Al'ar's adds, waves in MH, etc. Feral druids will generally be OTs, as they excel in that position, as well as any position where an add dies mid-fight and the tank isn't necessary anymore (assuming the add needs a tank in the first place). Warriors are generally best put on bosses, due to their excellent panic buttons and their debuffs.
If you want to find out what fights a Protection paladin excel at, I can only suggest going to Maintankadin :: Index (http://www.maintankadin.failsafedesign.com). Druids excel at any fight where crushing blows isn't the main source of physical spike damage, including Gruul, High King Maulgar. They are the poorest choice for any fight based on magical damage -- or rather, damage which isn't mitigated by armor.
Ty, both paladins and druids tanked pre-TBC. It wasn't pretty, and it wasn't fantastic, but they did do it. :) It wasn't push-over stuff, either, necessarily -- I have a pre-TBC vid of a paladin tanking Patchwerk, and although he did die at the end, Patchwerk was killed just afterwards. Paladins also tanked the 20-mans decently. Druids have been used as progression tanks throughout Molten Core and BWL, and even AQ. What TBC did for druids and paladins was make them viable for raids. Paladins only required three things, really: RD, Spiritual Attunement -- and gear to get them to crush-immune. Druids got serious amounts of avoidance, as well as crit-immunity through talents.
04-11-2008, 05:07 PM
In reality, usually your best prepared, skilled and geared tank is the best choice. I'm going to post some of the good points and bad points about each tanking class, but I'm not going to pretend to know the ins and outs of each. Also different tanks gear for different stats and this does have a big impact on what bosses they tank well.
Pro: Fast hitting mobs, AoE threat
Con: Slow hitting mobs, anything that silences.
Pro: Slow hitting mobs, bosses where Shield Wall/Last Stand will prevent an otherwise unpreventable tank death, bosses that need spell reflect.
Con: Fast hitting mobs
Pro: Anything that doesn't crush, swing speed of the mob is a non-issue, fights with repeating burst damage/silences, building secondary agro
Con: Depending on gearing, druids often take a greater % of the incoming damage.
Also keep in mind that the warrior ability Thunderclap (20% slow talented) should always be maintained on a boss. Having a DPS warrior, or even Prot warrior in DPS gear maintain Thunderclap significantly eats into their damage.
The effective difference between Paladin and Warrior tanks (ie: all that anyone will actually notice) can be summarized as follows:
Warriors have Shield Wall, Last Stand, and can be Tauren.
Paladins have Avenging Wrath and Consecration.
Warriors will be more survivable by virtue of cooldowns. Paladins will generate more threat by virtue of cooldowns. Neither are particularly game-breaking 90% of the time.
EDIT: Druids can function equally in nearly any situation as well (aside from certain gimmicks such as Shear), however the benefit brought by a Feral Druid is, in my opinion, versatility.
04-11-2008, 05:14 PM
Not all of these bosses hit very hard ( in MH and BT) . One of the points I was trying to make to my guild is TPS, VS a demon or undead raid boss, a paladin can put out far more TPS then a warrior. Meaning the DPS doesn't have to hold back as much. For a fight like Rage you don't wipe because the tank died.
Fights that are more DPS races sound like they would be better tanked by a paladin ( if the mob is demon or undead definately) or druid. Due to the fact that they cause threat through DPS not through high threat attacks. Paladins and druids can increase their TPS a good bit usually without changing much gear, or with little downgrading. Druids can pretty much do the same thing.
I do agree that all in all a warrior is a better tank, due to their emergency buttons. Personally though, I didn't go prot to tank trash. That job can be done by a Holy pally in tanking gear, or a holy/prot paladin, and have more versitility when not tanking=/
04-13-2008, 10:24 AM
Paladins can tank almost any fight. In BT/Hyjal I would only avoid using a paladin in the case of Archimonde. Even if you are not using a warrior for stance dance, a bear would still take much less damage, so paladins are really a bad tank there.
Our guild has used Pallys as MTs for Rage Winterchill, Anetheron, Supremus, Teron Gorefiend, Gurtogg Boilblood, Reliquary of Souls, Mother Shahraz, Illidari Council, Illidan Stormrage.
The only fight on that list where a Pally is not as good as a warrior is Illidari coucil, due to shield reflect for judge crusader. Also, you will want to use a warrior for your first Gorefiend kill, because you will likely have only one tank in the first time you do it, so you don't want to force a DPS warrior to put up sunder.
Funny I see this thread. I was told by a warrior that I should only heal. After that I really really didn't like em, well that is until I was side by side with one raiding and realized that not everyone feels that way.
As far as the right tank for the right job, imho who ever is more talented with gear wins. I could care less if a Priest is the MT, if that's the best person then so be it. I come from another game (EQ) where I enjoyed my Shadow knight. They did have a stigma attached to them and I kind of enjoy showing people wrong.
I agree, there are some fights that another class is better then myself based on abilities (which I'm learning more about ever day, hense why I'm here). I also am finding out that when ST/MT sometimes I work better with a specific class.
Will stop yapping, and just say, if the persons the right fit, then they tank.
04-18-2008, 07:54 AM
The right tank for the job is the one that will get the job done. Using a warrior on every encounter is not maximizing raid potential.
There are encounters where warriors are vastly superior to other tanks (e.g., P2 RoS). There are encounters where paladins are vastly superior to other tanks (ironically, P3 RoS). There are encounters where druids are vastly superior to other tanks (most things that don't crush, or where crushes can't be avoided).
There is no TBC encounter outside of Sunwell that hasn't been maintanked by a paladin, and most (if not all) have been tanked by paladins as a progression kill. Does that make a paladin a good choice for maintanking a Mother kill? No - a fight like Mother is one you do with a paladin MT just to be stubborn and wave your middle finger at asshat boss mechanics.
Panic buttons are a plus, but they're no substitute for a clean kill. Also, it never hurts to have a less-optimal tank MT an encounter from time to time if the mechanics allow for it - then you have a backup that is familiar with the encounter if your regular MT is ever absent or decides he's bored with tanking after getting 4/5 T6 and stops raiding while you're working on Illidan (YA RLY). You might be surprised how well a good pally, even with no T6 gear, can hold up against the (at the time) end-of-game boss.
The MT in our guild made a great post on our guild forums about this but what it boils down too is that yes, a Warrior can tank all of the content in the game just fine including raid bosses. But.... saying warriors are the only "good" choice for a tanking situation (talking about all types of tanking, not just raid bosses) is just ignorance. I would argue to most people that All of the tanks can tank all of the content just fine but for the gimich fights.
Just form my limited exp of Content 2/5 and 2/9 here is what I would say.
Fights that favor a Feral:
Vashj - Druids are the antiroot class and have no need for a BoF and can stay in melee range at all times.
Tidewalker - Hes going to crush anyways so put your best tank for mitigating damage up in front of him and thats a Feral.
Leo - Brust Threat + charge = WIN
VR - 2 Ferals is all you need, threat is a non - issue
Any boss that doesnt crush (asside form the gimick ones).
But it also comes down to versatility too. If more healing may be needed for a boss fight, either the Druid or the Pally can with a change of gear help out with it. Warroirs can't. If there is no extra healing that is needed and say you need more DPS, the Feral and Warrior put on there DPS gear and the Pally tanks it. You need a soak tank for Sumpreme, Ferals make a great choice, let your warriors DPS.
Tidewalker - Hes going to crush anyways so put your best tank for mitigating damage up in front of him and thats a Feral.
Actually, you might be surprised by a paladin in that fight. Obviously the paladin would be better with the murlocs, but if you have a spare paladin with skillz to throw at Tidewalker, he/she won't be eating crushings, which is a significant portion of the damage he deals.
05-08-2008, 09:02 AM
If your guild runs a proper Tank TEAM that rotates based on tank advantage then no reason for you not to tank if you have the skill and gear.
If your guild runs EQ style MT group (IE: warrior only), then you are not going to get to tank unless they fall over dead.
Hopefully you can convince them to move into using the W Prot, P prot, and D Feral as an effective team, if not, move on to a different Guild before you lose your mind.
05-08-2008, 09:56 AM
I generally don't like the nature of class specific threads. no one here argues that all 3 tanks can't tank encounters. It takes some reworking or maybe some tricks, but it all ends with the same result, phat lewts and bosses dead.
You don't need to make threads like this anymore people, the only people who argue about class differences, are people who are insecure, or idiotic. Closed.