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View Full Version : 33/28 Axe or Sword specialization?? Please help



KAOSFAYT
04-10-2008, 09:41 AM
:confused:
Hey first off let me say thanks, i dont have the math skills or the time to figure these things that you provided out.

Now i do have a question however about using points in axe specialization rather than sword. i am a true 2h axe kinda Orc but i've read and considered your sword theories. i struggled last night for about an hour (like i said i lack the math skills and time) as i adjusted to 33/28 with the decision of whether to go with 5point in axe spec instead of sword or perhaps a combo of the two. if you and others would be so kind as to share your vast knowledge with me again it would really help a Orc brotha out. my concern is i have the Savage set and my hit rating is awful low (10 points i believe) while my crit in serker mode is 24%(noobish i know please dont bag on me, i worked for awhile to get my tank gear only to have to switch to dps for my guild) Im Thinking because of my crap gear i could use the extra crit % please let me know as soon as yall have the time

mattdeeze
04-10-2008, 10:02 AM
It would have to be a pretty good sword upgrade to overcome your +5 expertise with Axes Racial. As an orc, I would stick with axes. Being a human. Ill stick with my sword. Till mallet of tides drops of course. :)

gazhkull
04-10-2008, 08:13 PM
I think the choice is easy for those of us not at the cutting edge of progression, just pick the speciality that matches your best weapon available to you. For warriors, the quality of your main weapon(s) would have a more visible effect on your DPS than choice of Axe/Sword speciality.

If both axe/sword weapons are equal, and I was an Orc, I would pick Axe (Sword if human).

KAOSFAYT
04-10-2008, 10:58 PM
appreciate the info. it seems clear what i need to do which is stay with my love of the AXE. :D

limitgenesis
04-13-2008, 10:54 AM
go swords by any means neccisary ur burst dmg will increase by alot, the difference in dps is huge from sword procs cause with slam rotation u can put out 10k-20k dmg in 2 seconds with wf a sword proc all criting. go swords no matter what, i had bloodmoon which i regret making and overnight i made lionheart executioner once som1 said it would increase my dmg by alot, and i did and i now despise axes even being an orc i cant stand the thought of ever using one again

Corbusier
04-13-2008, 05:50 PM
go swords by any means neccisary ur burst dmg will increase by alot

Potential burst damage may increase, but the overall difference between sword & axe spec in terms of sustained DPS is extremely small, in most cases less than 1%. It's even closer for Orcs.

limitgenesis
04-13-2008, 09:44 PM
the difference i picked up on my recount was insane its not just a small difference i pulled 900 on naj'entus with axe then pulled 1300 dps on rage in hyjal days after switching with swords hows that for difference. same dps slam cycle same group just a nice big diff between bloodmoon and lionheart executioner

Corbusier
04-13-2008, 10:09 PM
Wow, I've never seen results like that before, and I've tried both. But hey, whatever works for you.

shiz98
04-14-2008, 12:36 AM
its not just a small difference i pulled 900 on naj'entus with axe then pulled 1300 dps on rage in hyjal days after switching with swords hows that for difference

Wait, you got different DPS numbers on different bosses? ORLY? Clearly it's the difference in Axe/Sword spec because, of course, you have the exact same weapon stats in each case, the extra extra 1500 armor on Naj'entus won't make a difference, and you certainly have the same DPS time on both bosses.

Let's use a little math and a lot of common sense, shall we?

Sword spec is basically the same as Axe spec. For melee, crits do double damage, so the extra 5% to deal an extra attack is, at face value, the same as an extra 5% to crit. In Axe spec's favor is the extra 20% bonus from Impale and the 3% from the RED gem.

So, Axe is better then? No. Because that Sword Spec proc can crit as well. If you don't believe me, here's the math.

Axe Spec Damage = base_damage + base_damage * (chance_to_crit + 0.05) * 1.2

Sword Spec Damage = base_damage + base_damage * (chance_to_crit) * 1.2 + [(base_damage * 0.05) + (base_damage * 0.05 * 1.2 * chance_to_crit)]

I think this are correct - someone let me know if they aren't

Simplified, these boil down to:
Axe Spec: 1.2(c + 0.05)d + d
Sword Spec: 1.26*c*d+1.05*d

Where d is base damage and c is chance to crit.

Scary math aside, here are some numbers:

With 25% Crit and 800 Base Damage:
Axe Damage: 1088.0
Sword Damage: 1092.0
Difference: 1.00%

With 25% Crit and 1000 Base Damage:
Axe Damage: 1360.0
Sword Damage: 1365.0
Difference: 1.00%

With 35% Crit and 800 Base Damage:
Axe Damage: 1184.0
Sword Damage: 1192.8
Difference: 1.01%

With 35% Crit and 1000 Base Damage:
Axe Damage: 1480.0
Sword Damage: 1491.0
Difference: 1.01%

Sword spec is better with almost any conceivable scenario. At about 15% crit, things swing more in favor of Axe spec, but that's hardly relevant...

Eventually I'll make a calculator for this that will show the % difference of Sword vs Axe given weapon damage and stats, but it's pretty clear that Sword almost always wins out, given equal stats.

P.S.
For those of you who are wondering, base damage is the average weapon damage across all moves. So to find it, you'd take your average White damage, Slam damage, MS damage, and WW damage; add them all together and divide the result by four. Armor effects are irrelevant since they're applied after crits.

mattdeeze
04-14-2008, 12:44 AM
Yes. Sword spec will be better given that all things are equal, but the OP is an Orc. I'm not going to go into the math simply because I can't. But I'm quite certain that 5 Expertise will give him far more than 1% additional damage. And a DPS increase from 900 to 1300 simply from changing weapon spec is pure fantasy. Would be much more accurate if you were comparing dps on the same boss.

shiz98
04-14-2008, 12:48 AM
Followup post:

For all practical purposes, we can assume a 1% difference in DPS from Sword vs Axe. This isn't really all that big of a deal - if you're doing 800 DPS with Axe spec, you'll do 808 DPS with Sword spec (and an identical weapon). In fact, the added difficulty of dealing with the procs from Sword Spec may actually wind up making Sword spec worse for some people.

Bottom line: go with whatever weapon is best, and spec accordingly. Weapons being equal (PvP rewards, for example), go for the racial bonus.

In your specific case, Koasfayt, you desperately need to hit your mob more often - that 5 expertise will be much more beneficial than the slight DPS boost from a sword.

limitgenesis
04-14-2008, 08:37 AM
because of slam rotation swords feel better suited for the intended huge burst dmg in raids, swords just make slam rotation god if ur good at it and get some lucky sword procs and wfs, suppose if u suck at it and have to rely on high crit just to keep ur head above water why not. my bloodmoon is banked and im never touching that fucker again and the difference i see in trash and bosses is not 1% increase.

shiz98
04-14-2008, 09:52 AM
Ok, yes, Sword Spec has higher burst damage, which will make you feel as if you're hitting mobs harder due to massive bursts every once in a while. It's a psychological effect, however, and not actually indicative of your overall damage.

The intended effect of a Slam build is not to provide "massive burst damage" (and if it was, what's the point of burst damage that you can't even control?). Rather, it's about providing good DPS while providing a great buff to the raid in the form of Blood Frenzy.

gazhkull
04-15-2008, 04:22 AM
Let's leave the aggression directed at people who disagree with your opinion on the WOW Warrior forums. Your example of 900 dps vs 1200 dps is mathematically unlikely so unless you can substantiate it with supporting stats like a WWS feed to back it up, expect to be called on it.


because of slam rotation swords feel better suited for the intended huge burst dmg in raids, swords just make slam rotation god if ur good at it and get some lucky sword procs and wfs, suppose if u suck at it and have to rely on high crit just to keep ur head above water why not. my bloodmoon is banked and im never touching that fucker again and the difference i see in trash and bosses is not 1% increase.

shiz98
04-15-2008, 08:43 AM
The number seem accurate to me, given how the fights go, and that there's a fairly hefty armor difference between the two mobs. I'm not going to do the math in this case, because the effort is just not worth it.

I think we can lay this one to bed before we start getting more offtopic. Hopefully the OP has gotten the information they were looking for ;)