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shiz98
04-08-2008, 06:29 PM
Title says it all. What benefit is there to having 142 hit rating instead of 140? I'm assuming a 2H weapon here, but it doesn't really matter.

Please don't respond with figures on boss mob miss percentages, or similar arguments (unless they support another argument...). Also, this post relates solely to DPS Warriors, nothing more. There isn't much to say about other classes and hit.

Seems to me that +hit is a decent DPS stat that loses all (or much, with DW) of its usefulness once you've reached 142. It also seems to me that the closer I get to 142 hit rating, the less useful it is relative to other stats (crit, for example).

Edit: I realize this could probably use some clarification, but I do want to keep the discussion fairly open by asking my question in a very general manner. I've read all over the place that all classes (including Warriors) should be hit capped. The arguments make sense for most classes, but I'm not convinced as a Warrior. The examples I've seen have been general case scenario's that don't take into account the way Warriors scale with stats; people seem to have taken what holds true for other classes at face value without examining it. If I'm mistaken, I'd love to find out why :)

Gravy
04-08-2008, 07:26 PM
The easiest explanation is: A missed hit can't crit, while a hit deals damage whether or not or crits.

If you don't think you'll ever be fighting a boss level mob, then go ahead and don't put hit up to 142. All you need is 95 hit rating for all of your attacks to land on a level 72 mob.

shiz98
04-08-2008, 07:41 PM
Huh? I'm not sure I follow. Are you saying that chance to miss is also subtracted from chance to crit?

As per your second part, why be hit capped when chance to dodge is still in the mix? In fact, what's the difference between 0.1% to miss or 0% chance to miss?

shiz98
04-08-2008, 07:53 PM
Ok, I did some calculus, and here's what I've got.

Every 1 point of hit adds rawdamage/15.76 DPS.
Every 1 point of AP adds (c*h)/14 DPS, where c (a constant) is the amount of DPS gained per AP and h is chance not to miss or dodge.

Notice, hit adds a constant amount of DPS, while AP adds DPS that scales with hit/expertise. If you were to graph these two functions, they would intersect somwhere - that point is where hit = AP. My argument is that the feasibility point of this intersection is somewhere below 100% to hit. I'm still working out the math for AP.

Ukyo
04-08-2008, 09:08 PM
I'm not much of a theorycrafter, but i think most of the warriors say that if you're hit capped, you'll generate more overall damage than if you weren't. There's always a chance to miss, but if you're capped, that chance becomes irrelevant to your overall damage. It is possible to remove the % of dodge/parry attacks on the combat table (Parrys are removed from the combat table if you're attacking from behind) with expertise, but if you're not hit capped, the benefit of removing them becomes irrelevant also.

That's all i can say, sorry if it seems like a lol response, but that's what i think, like i said starting my response, i'm not much of a theorycrafter.

Nayre
04-08-2008, 09:20 PM
Actually, expertise and hit rating are completely separate. Or, more precisely... dodge/parry and miss/hit are completely separate. So, not being hit-capped is more or less irrelevant to expertise.

shiz98
04-08-2008, 09:33 PM
Expertise and hit rating are somewhat related in that they have the same overall effect.

@Ukyo
I definitely agree that hit is certainly nice stat to have. I'm just not sure if it's the only stat you should care about until you're capped.

Ukyo
04-08-2008, 09:36 PM
You don't need to worry about hit that much either, you can create a balance:

The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Smolderthorn&n=Kukyo)

I'm more worried about getting enough balance to be a viable source of dps for my raid, then, when i get access to some upgrades, i'll fix what i need to fix to create more balance.

PS: don't mind the sword, i switched the model to tf and i like how it looks xD

veneretio
04-08-2008, 10:09 PM
The easiest explanation is: A missed hit can't crit, while a hit deals damage whether or not or crits.
This isn't true. Misses, Hits and Crits are all completely different on the combat table.

An oversimplified combat table:
50% Miss
30% Hit
20% Crit

The game simply rolls to determine which one you get. It rolls 1 times... not twice.

So what happens when you gain 1% hit?
49% Miss
31% Hit
20% Crit

The odds of Critting are still identical because a miss has been just converted to a hit.

So what happens when you gain 1% crit?
50% Miss
29% Hit
21% Crit

The odds of Critting are now greater, but the odds of hitting are now lesser resulting in effectively the exact same number of misses.

The actual combat table contains dodge and parry as well, but ultimately this is how increases in hit and crit are handled since it is a 1 roll system for warriors.

shiz98
04-08-2008, 10:19 PM
Thanks for the clarification on that, Veneretio.

I've gone and simplified what I put above (believe it or not, I actually went in a complete loop in my maths...), down to this:

damage done = rawdamage * hit/15.76

Pretty simple equation, works nicely. What you can get from it is that hit adds more damage the more raw damage your giving - the more AP/Crit/ArP you have, the more hit helps you. I'd do the calculus to determine what pays off when, but I'd have to do a multivariable analysis, and I don't know how. I'll work on general numbers and see how that goes.

In any case, regardless of the mathematics, what are people's feelings on this? Warriors are unique in that Crit/ArP/AP give us extra rage and proc a lot of things, so there's a definite advantage there. Obviously hit is nice, but is there any justification to getting hit/dodge capped at the expense of other stats?

The only reason I can think of is to remove luck from your DPS as much as possible - no unlucky miss streaks, etc. Of course, over the course of a large fight these all average out, so yeah...

kittikat
04-08-2008, 10:24 PM
142 is the 9% cap you need to reach to ensure that all your SPECIAL (yellow) attacks don't miss. It would suck to spend the little amount of rage on Excecute and have it miss, wouldn't it?

If you Dual Wield, then your hit rating reqs go up a crapton. Most good DPS warriors aim for 200~ish Hit Rating to increase white damage (white damage is a sizable chunk of your DPS, about 40-50% if not more) and generate rage faster in order to use special more frequently.

So..more hit = more dps and more rage which in turn generates even more dps by allowing more yellow hits.

XD

But make sure you're at least 142 hit rating to guarantee no yellow misses.

Salion
04-08-2008, 11:40 PM
This isn't true. Misses, Hits and Crits are all completely different on the combat table.


Misses, Hits, and Crits are separate on the combat table when mobs are attacking players, and the same is true for white damage caused to mobs by players. But, to my knowledge, yellow damage from players does use a 2-roll system (explaining how blocked crits can happen). With this 2-roll system, +1% hit should be better than +1% crit since the added hit does add to crit% on yellow attacks until you reach the 9% hit cap. See http://www.tankspot.com/forums/tankspot-library/36361-guide-hit-rating-spell-hit-expertise.html for a recent post which this is described in.

If you're dual-wielding, then once past the 9% hit cap, crit% should be much better than hit% since the crit will increase both white and yellow damage while the hit will only increase white damage.

As to the benefit of reaching the hit cap (or the soft expertise cap, for that matter), as opposed to being slightly under it in exchange for more of another stat ... I agree that other than "removing luck from your" dps, it doesn't seem to matter too much for a dps warrior. Plus, if you've reached the cap, you are probably actually a few points above the cap, thus wasting some of that rating if you're not dual-wielding. I guess it all comes down to how close you are to the caps, and how much of other stats you'd be giving up on a specific gear choice. Personally, I'd prefer a point of expertise rating to a point of hit rating until reaching the soft expertise cap, since you only need 3.94 expertise rating for 1 expertise value. As to the value of hit rating or expertise rating vs. AP or ArP ... it does depend on how much of the latter stats you actually have. I don't have math for that, but there are some dps calculators out there that can tell you what their relative values are for you.

Salion
04-09-2008, 12:46 AM
Well, in the thread I linked to in my previous post, there is a link to an Elitist Jerk thread with data concerning blocked crits. That post isn't about PvP, though; it's about PvE. I don't PvP much, and haven't read up much on PvP, so I don't know if there are different attack tables in PvP or not.

You are correct, however; the data in the Elitist threat does not decisively prove a 2 roll system, it only shows the likeliness of it. And, that thread is pretty dated.

I apologize if I sounded like I was presenting it as truth. By "to my knowledge", I meant to indicate that I don't know for sure if that's how it works, not having run any tests myself.

Arrivan
04-09-2008, 01:41 AM
If you Dual Wield, then your hit rating reqs go up a crapton. Most good DPS warriors aim for 200~ish Hit Rating to increase white damage (white damage is a sizable chunk of your DPS, about 40-50% if not more) and generate rage faster in order to use special more frequently.

I may be nitpicking here, but Fury warriors don't "aim" for 200 hit rating when gearing per se. That number 200 is just an arbitrary number plucked out of the air by WoW Warrior forum posters. Fury warriors just starting out at level 70 would be better off to stack hit to 95 before anything else then take any extra hit as it comes, whereas BT/Hjyal/Sunwell Fury warriors would have no problems getting well over 200 without even trying purely because of the way the gear at that level of raiding is itemised. How much hit you have will generally depend on the level of gear you have if you're not trying to stack hit (and you shouldn't be).

While I'm on the topic, please note I am not stating "95 HIT THEN NO MORE EVER". That's just a personal grievance of mine. After 95 you shouldn't go out of your way to stack hit if you have alteratives with more (or even equivalent) AP or crit. Increasing hit will still increase your white damage. But I digress.


But make sure you're at least 142 hit rating to guarantee no yellow misses.

This. Stacking AP/ArP/crit are all very well and good, but take this fictitious combat table attacking an even level mob from behind:

5% dodge
9% miss
30% crit
56% hit

Now convert all that hit to crit and see what happens:

5% dodge
9% miss
86% crit

Notice that 14% of your attacks will still fail to land, and adding more crit at this point will not increase your damage at all. Soft cap expertise and you're still left with 9% of your attacks that will not land. The only way to increase your damage at this point is to stack hit. While it is not practical or even possible without Recklessness (but if I am wrong, please post a screenshot of it :)) to reach the crit cap (unless you include glancing blows into the mix, but this is for an even level mob), it is very easy to reach the 2H hit cap. My point is, adding crit only converts the hit you have into crits, whereas until you are hit capped every single attack you make will have a higher chance of simply landing, not just critting. More attacks landing = more DPS. I don't see why you wouldn't reach the hit cap if you can. However, it is alright to not be over it if you are still gearing up.

Bear in mind I have not considered AP in this because it doesn't fit into the combat table and I don't want to worry about SEP conversions and such.

TLDR version: cap hit when using a 2H, there's no reason not to.

Corbusier
04-09-2008, 06:49 AM
I think Arrivan sums the hit issue up pretty nicely.

shiz98
04-09-2008, 07:28 AM
But make sure you're at least 142 hit rating to guarantee no yellow misses.
Right, but as long as dodge is still in the equation, reaching the hit cap has no extra benefit.


cap hit when using a 2H, there's no reason not to
Exactly. Hit is a very nice damage increase - but once you have high levels of it, other stats may become more important. For the sake of argument, let's say I'm hit capped, with the 2% dodge reduction from Weapon Mastery. I could pick up a Shard of Contempt, giving me 2.75% dodge reduction. But because other stats become more effective the closer you are to 100% hit/crit chance, and because of the way Warrior DPS scales with stats, it may not be worth swapping a Shard of Contempt in over, say, a Berserker's Call. Or taking it to the extreme, it may not be worth gemming that 8 +hit rating to put you at 146 hit (or thereabouts) over putting in 16 AP and not being hit capped.

kittikat
04-09-2008, 07:47 AM
Right, but as long as dodge is still in the equation, reaching the hit cap has no extra benefit.That's not true. At least not for the initial 9% hit cap. You want to clear off all misses first, then worry about dodge or not later down the road. Miss/dodge/parry are not in the same percentile:

2-Roll Yellow Hit Example with 20% Crit no +Hit(Initial roll) Attacking from behind:
9% Miss
5.6% Dodge
85.4% Hit

By reaching the 9% hit cap for Specials, you make your roll chart look like this:
5.6% Dodge
94.4% Hit

Every 5 Expertise SKILL reduces your dodge/parry by 1.25% (humans wielding sword or mace get this racially, orcs wielding axes do too):
4.35% Dodge
95.65% Hit

So when you hit cap for specials (9%), then you only have to worry about the dodge percentage, not the dodge AND miss percentages.

142 is the number for base hit cap, with Precision, it's 95. Just a clarification. And 95 is easy as hell to get.

shiz98
04-09-2008, 11:21 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Dodge/Miss the same thing? Is there really a difference between 0% Miss + 5% dodge and 2.5% Miss + 2.5% Dodge? It seems to me that there's still an overall 5% chance for an attack not to land.

Corbusier
04-09-2008, 11:22 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Dodge/Miss the same thing? Is there really a difference between 0% Miss + 5% dodge and 2.5% Miss + 2.5% Dodge? It seems to me that there's still an overall 5% chance for an attack not to land.

They're effectively the same thing when considering DPS, but they're entirely different entries in the attack table and are affected by entirely different stats.

shiz98
04-09-2008, 11:45 AM
Ok. So given a 1 roll attack table, they'd have identical results on your dps - you could put them collectively into "mob avoidance." Given a 2-roll table, such as the one kitkicat posted above, they'd still have the same effect on your DPS regardless of what the individual percentages are.

I still don't see the benefit of stacking 9% hit and leaving 5.6% Dodge over stacking, say, 7% Hit and having only 3.6% Dodge. Obviously different stats apply, but the net result should be the same, no?

In which case being hit capped really isn't as important as stacking enough hit + expertise to be able to get a good about of -mob avoidance.

Corbusier
04-09-2008, 11:48 AM
Ok. So given a 1 roll attack table, they'd have identical results on your dps - you could put them collectively into "mob avoidance." Given a 2-roll table, such as the one kitkicat posted above, they'd still have the same effect on your DPS regardless of what the individual percentages are.

I still don't see the benefit of stacking 9% hit and leaving 5.6% Dodge over stacking, say, 7% Hit and having only 3.6% Dodge. Obviously different stats apply, but the net result should be the same, no?

In which case being hit capped really isn't as important as stacking enough hit + expertise to be able to get a good about of -mob avoidance.
Because it's easy enough to get 9% hit for DPS just through gear. Capping expertise is MUCH more difficult, just because a lot of dps gear doesn't have it.

Also, if you can hit 9%, all of your specials can no longer miss, which is a huge DPS boost.

mattdeeze
04-09-2008, 11:52 AM
Yes Shiz, your ultimate goal would be stacking both hit and expertise till you remove all avoidance. You should not stack hit at the expense of expertise. Also, giving up large amounts of attack power or crit for a small amount of avoidance reduction isnt a good idea either. But until you reach your softcaps hit and expertise are generally considered more valuable for total dps than crit or attack power point for point.

loquatious
04-09-2008, 11:54 AM
From everything I've read the question is simply where do iLevel points buy you the most DPS bang for the buck.

If you are under 9% hit cap the answer is +HIT
If you are over it then the answer is Str,Crit, etc.

So I wouldnt replace an epic DPS neck with a blue just because the blue has +hit on it, but when you compare gear or make choices get hit up to the cap and then go shopping for the other stuff.

shiz98
04-09-2008, 12:09 PM
Edit: Oops, thought my last post didn't go through, and I basically wrote it again. Dur...

New post:
I just want to be clear that I'm not asking for advice on whether to get +hit rating. Trust me, I know the numbers, I know why getting hit capped is nice, and I know it's a good DPS increase. I'm not looking for advice on how to gear; I'm merely putting forward the proposition that past a certain point that may or may not be before the hit cap/hit and expertise cap, it may be more beneficial to stack other stats. I'm not so sure the old standard of being hit capped above everything else actually applies to Warriors.

I agree with loq for the most part - up and close to 9% +hit, the best DPS stat is hit rating, hands down. But due to the interaction between +hit and damage, along with the unique effect extra damage has for a Warrior, it might be a different story at around 9% mob avoidance reduction.

kittikat
04-09-2008, 12:17 PM
Ok. So given a 1 roll attack table, they'd have identical results on your dps - you could put them collectively into "mob avoidance." Given a 2-roll table, such as the one kitkicat posted above, they'd still have the same effect on your DPS regardless of what the individual percentages are.

I still don't see the benefit of stacking 9% hit and leaving 5.6% Dodge over stacking, say, 7% Hit and having only 3.6% Dodge. Obviously different stats apply, but the net result should be the same, no?

In which case being hit capped really isn't as important as stacking enough hit + expertise to be able to get a good about of -mob avoidance.
Amended. I'm having a stupid day.

These are based on Yellow attacks (2-roll system)

Actually, you're kinda hurting yourself not getting more hit especially with the crit.

You're crit-capping yourself unless you increase your hit rating.

What this means is that, at 0% hit rating, 0% expertise, you have 14.6% chance to miss on a given target, and say you have 60% chance to crit. That 60% will only affect 85.4% of your hits/shots.

Basically 60% turns into 51.24% (85.4% of the displayed crit) effective crit chance, making hit rating a lot more effective per item point. as hit gives you not only more hits, but also slightly more crit (until hit/dodge capped ofc).

So increasing +hit and +expertise not only increases overall raw DPS, it also increases your effective crits, which again boosts your dps.

And +hit is much much easier to stack/gem than expertise.

shiz98
04-09-2008, 12:24 PM
Actually, (referring to Vene's post) that's not how the combat table works. Using your example table:

9% Miss
5.6% Dodge
20% Crit
65.4% hit

The computer creates a random number between 1-100. If it's below or equal to 9, it's a Miss. If it's between 9 and 14.6, it's a Dodge, etc.

The only crit "soft cap" is when you've completely pushed Hit off the table, because hit and crit are separate entities on the table - Crit is not a function of Hit. When you're hit capped, the table is like so:

5.6% Dodge
20% Crit
74.4% Hit

There's no increase to Crit. Now, a 2-roll table is a different story, depending on how it's implemented.

kittikat
04-09-2008, 12:38 PM
Yeah, you're right. What I posted above is part of the 2-roll system. My god my head hurts. >.<

shiz98
04-09-2008, 01:23 PM
Heh, you're not alone :P

I'm going to rephrase the questions related to my musings in a very specific manner:

Question 1: Is the benefit to DPS the same going from 138 -> 140 avoidance as it is going from 140 -> 142 avoidance. If not, why?

Question 2: The raw damage increase required to result in an equal DPS gain as an additional 1&#37; to hit is given by the formula g = (0.01 * rawdamage )/x. Where 'g' is the raw damage increase required, and x is the current chance not to miss or dodge. At 1k rawdamage, a 11.62 increase in raw damage output would be required to give the same DPS increase as simply increasing from 86% chance to hit to 87%. At 99% -> 100%, a 10.1 increase in raw damage is required. Given 600 rawdamage, the numbers are 6.98 and 6.06, respectively. Can some experienced warrior tell me how hard those types of raw damage increases would be to attain? I could make a big function with lots of variables, but I think an experienced player's gut feeling will be just as good here.

Crimsonstorm
04-09-2008, 03:19 PM
The first 9% of hit rating (95 rating + 3/3 precision for fury, or 142 for arms/prot), increases the dps of all your attacks, and is very good.

The first 6.5% of dodge reduction from expertise (103 rating for arms, 79 rating for prot with 3/3 defiance, 71 rating for fury with 2/2 weapon mastery), increases the dps of all your attacks, and is very good. It also gives 2x the normal benefit from the front.

NOTE that it is 6.5% dodge on bosses, NOT 5.6%! And thus the cap is 26 expertise skill without talents, not 23.

Expertise beyond the listed amount above does nothing from the back and should be avoided.

Hit rating beyond the listed amount above only increases damage from white attacks, which are only around 40% of fury warrior dps (not sure about specific % for arms/prot, but its low). This makes it the WORST dps stat to stack beyond this amount, worse than Str, Crit, 7Armor Pen., 2AP, Haste, or even Agility!


The result of this is that any dpsing warrior should not aim to stack hit beyond what is needed to hit with special attacks. Each specific item must be analysed for its dps, and some items with hit rating on them are strong, due to being well itemized. (i.e. a Str/Crit/Hit item is generally good, and usually better than just a Str/Crit item. However, an item with only two dps stats, one of them hit, is pretty much guaranteed to suck, and an item with 3 dps stats, one of them hit, is going to we worse than an item with 3 dps stats not including hit, of the same item level.

mattdeeze
04-09-2008, 03:54 PM
Crimson was not refering to the miss chance &#37; of white hits. He was refering to the percentage of total damage that can be attributed to white hits. You are right about the White attacks of a 2h or sword and board being the same 9% miss chance as yellow attacks.

kittikat
04-09-2008, 04:12 PM
NOTE that it is 6.5% dodge on bosses, NOT 5.6%! And thus the cap is 26 expertise skill without talents, not 23.Can you list your resources for this, please?

Kazeyonoma
04-09-2008, 05:09 PM
I believe on EJ someone did testing and found the dodge rating on bosses to be around 6.5&#37; and its not based around the normal "they are 3 levels higher, and each level they gain....etc.... therefore it is 5.6%" Which makes sense of course, but I read somewhere that the actual testing showed closer to 6.5%. not sure where, we'll wait for crimson to reply.

Ceravantes
04-10-2008, 05:59 AM
The way I read it was it was all pretty inconclusive, different bosses showing different amounts, between 5.6 and 6.5%.

bagelbite
04-25-2008, 11:34 PM
Question 1: Is the benefit to DPS the same going from 138 -> 140 avoidance as it is going from 140 -> 142 avoidance. If not, why?

Simple, practical answer: yes.

Complicated answer: No, but its very close, but not exactly the same. 140>142 will be ever so slightly lower, due to rage and proc effect diminishing marginal benefit. For example, uptime of a proc such as executioner will get diminished returns from your attacks landing more and more often. While it will proc more often if your attacks land more often, you will have more and more overlap the higher proc uptime goes. This wouldnt be the case with a static damage proc, like fiery.

Also, improvements to total dps from abilities will see diminished returns. More rage improves your ability to follow the ideal rotation with less blips due to rage starvation, but the closer you get to infinite rage, the less frequently you will have blips.


In addition, until you are hit capped(or dodge capped for expertise) to where yellow damage cannot miss, you will not find another stat that will increase your dps by more, given equal itemization value amounts of stats. Hit and expertise are simply the best stats per itemization point until capped, in the reality of the games current state. that doesnt mean an item with hit or expertise should be chosen over other items. it means if you have a choice of an identical item, but one with 10 hit or 10 expertise, and the other with 10 of any other stat, the hit/expertise item is better. if the items are not otherwise identical, the better peice of gear is undefined by my post.



Question 2: The raw damage increase required to result in an equal DPS gain as an additional 1&#37; to hit is given by the formula g = (0.01 * rawdamage )/x. Where 'g' is the raw damage increase required, and x is the current chance not to miss or dodge. At 1k rawdamage, a 11.62 increase in raw damage output would be required to give the same DPS increase as simply increasing from 86% chance to hit to 87%. At 99% -> 100%, a 10.1 increase in raw damage is required. Given 600 rawdamage, the numbers are 6.98 and 6.06, respectively. Can some experienced warrior tell me how hard those types of raw damage increases would be to attain? I could make a big function with lots of variables, but I think an experienced player's gut feeling will be just as good here.

Seriously, dont even try to go there on the math. that formula is a far cry from reality. use a spreadsheet if you want somewhat accurate answers. spreadsheets arent perfect, but likely to be magnitudes higher in accuracy than forum math.

shiz98
04-26-2008, 02:33 AM
Yeah, that formula is nowhere near all-encompassing. I just used it to get relative numbers (how much crit does it take to increase rawdamage by one? you tell me :confused:).

And what I did come up with agrees with what you said: hit/expertise is a ridiculously effective stat. And it's awesome in that it not only increases DPS, but also increases rage generation (which is subject to diminishing returns as you stated).

I only just now realized that when I said "138->140 avoidance" I meant hit...

But yeah, thanks for the replies. I'm a believer now ;)

Darstomp
05-06-2008, 10:54 AM
this got a little off topic.. but to answer the original question: Why be hit capped as a Warrior? So you specials never miss. youll need 142 hit rating (9&#37;) or 95 hit rating (6%) if you spec 3/3 into precision. someone prolly already answered that but i got tired of reading off topic responses =P

edit: woops! this was so 4 months ago lol