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Arideni
04-08-2008, 07:15 AM
EDIT: I have updated the math & attached a spreadsheet (see end of post for online version). If anyone could verify & let me know what you think of the new update, much appreciated!

So, we have a friendly warrior community over at the Wowhead forums, for those who don't roam a lot. This morning, my friend Yakra brought up something very interesting in a topic there.

I believe my math is correct, but I am interested in hearing what people think here. Credit goes to Yakra for starting this up.

Glyph of the Defender (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=29186)
vs.
Glyph of the Gladiator (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=29193)
vs.
Presence of Might (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=19782)


20 resilience rating is 0.51% reduced critical hit
16 defense rating is 0.27% reduced critical hit
Each gives something unique: 0.85% dodge, 180 health, & the last 15 block value (among other things)

Felsteel Helm (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=23519) (w/ 3x Solid Stars of Elune (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=24033))
Enchanted:

w/ Glyph of the Gladiator
Health 810
Armor 1284
Effective Health 897
-----
Defense rating 33
Avoidance/Block 2.2344
Crit Reduction 0.55836 (+0.6 from Resilience)
=====
Grand Total Crit Reduction 1.15836

w/ Glyph of the Defender
Health 630
Armor 1284
Effective Health 698
-----
Defense rating 49
Avoidance/Block 3.31632 (+0.85 Dodge)
=====
Grand Total Avoidance/Block+Dodge 4.16632
Total Crit Reduction 0.82908

w/ Presence of Might (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=19782)
Health 730
Armor 1284
Effective Health 808
-----
Defense rating 43
Avoidance/Block 2.91024
Crit Reduction 0.72756
-----

Originally, I just did some numbers on the two Glpyhs, but thanks to Fame & Kazeyonoma here, I've re-written my conclusions based on updated math & the inclusion of...Presence of Might (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=19782).
-----

It looks as if for highest Effective Health, Glyph of the Gladiator edges out Presence of Might, but is still better than Glyph of the Defender.

For avoidance, it looks as if Defender comes out on top, with Might coming in second, and Gladiator trailing behind.

For reducing critical hits, Gladiator again takes the lead. Defender comes in second, with a Might as a close third.
-----

How much defense does one need if using the resilience Glyph? From the baseline of 490, a player with 20 resilience (from this enchant) would only need 477 defense rating. That's quite a realistic option.
-----

I have attached the spreadsheet, in XLS & Tab/TXT format for those who would be so kind, as to check my formulas, etc. Alternatively, it can be accessed online, via Google Docs.
Here's the link for that:

Darmon
04-08-2008, 07:52 AM
I found the new glyph of gladiator, alongside with the def enchants to cloack, one very good source of crit immunity for resist gear - fire/frost/nature/shadow, and allows a better customization of other gear slots. On my own case i sold the old Dabiri's Enigma that helped to hit crit imune status, replacing it with the new stam trinket.

Kazeyonoma
04-08-2008, 09:33 AM
well first I think your base math is off.

the glyph of the defender gives more avoidance than you give credit for.

16 def rating / 2.36 = 6.78 defense * .04 = .27 miss/dodge/parry/block so in total its .81% pure avoidance or 1.08 avoidance/block from def rating ALONE. then take into account the dodge:
17 dodge rating / 18.9231 = .90% dodge.

that's a combined: .81+.90 = 1.71% avoidance, or 1.98% avoidance/block

compare that against 18 stamina. not just .81% in your calculations.

Arideni
04-08-2008, 10:14 AM
You are correct -- some of the math is off a little bit, and I did use some rounded values. I'm going to recheck them & see what I get. I sure thought I had included the dodge in the avoidance/block count for the Defender. Lemme spend some time with it again, I'll update the post at the top w/ a note when I'm done.

Fame
04-08-2008, 10:20 AM
Dont forget about Presence of Might: 10 Stam, 15 BV, 10 Def?

On a sidenote, Glyph of the Gladiator is the best enchant for Druids.

Kazeyonoma
04-08-2008, 10:21 AM
I still like Presence of Might. its an EH dream.

Fame
04-08-2008, 10:24 AM
I still like Presence of Might. its an EH dream.

As do I, which is why I'm pointing it out.

Arideni
04-08-2008, 12:19 PM
OK, I did all the previous math on an adding machine basically, and in my head. No surprise, some of the figures were off. The primary cause was that I wasn't factoring in the dodge rating correctly. I was multiplying the dodge using the defense formula (as opposed to the dodge formula). That made the answer lower, instead of .9 it was .68.

I've drawn up a spreadsheet to help ensure things are accurate & stay in their rightful places (my effective health formula keeps showing the decimal in the wrong place, no idea what I did wrong there yet).

I'm also going to add in Presence of Might, though I already agree that is hands-down the most optimal for a warrior right now. I had totally forgotten about it, thx for reminding me! /ok back to work!

EDIT: I found the other error & it was with defense rating to skill conversion. Now to sort this mess out...

Arideni
04-12-2008, 08:43 AM
I am really curious about my conclusions. Now, I know my spreadsheet might not be top notch material because I had a really hard time finding consistant values across the board for ratings. Regardless, I believe it is well enough that any discrepancies will not change the overall conclusions (and any discrepancies should be very small, if not I would like to know where I went wrong so I can work on it).

Anyways, the conclusion was that, in short:

Highest Effective Health: Glyph of the Gladiator > Presence of Might > Glyph of the Defender.

Highest avoidance: Defender > Might > Gladiator

Most crit reduction: Gladiator > Defender > Might

Joeker
04-16-2008, 02:58 AM
I think i have a good question for this forum then. Which would be better: Powerful Earthstorm Diamond with the Glyph of the Defender or Eternal Earthstorm Diamond with Glyph of the Gladiator. I really want to go the route of Eternal Earthstorm Diamond with Glyph of the Gladiator so that I can have a little more SBV for better SS. Let me know what you think

Arideni
04-16-2008, 06:18 AM
I don't particularly feel that either metagem goes hand-in-hand with any of the Glyphs. I suppose you made the connection because they both usually go in helms, but otherwise I don't see the relation.

In most cases, if you're trying to get more Effective Health for progression, then naturally choose the Powerful Earthstorm Diamond (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=25896). Otherwise, note that the Eternal Earthstorm Diamond (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=35501) provides 10% shield block value. This 10% is additive with Shield Mastery (as far as I know) & comes from the base value. So, that's a total of 40% additional SBV.

I think it's fair to say one is for progression & the other is for threat, if you are min/maxing things. One way to mix & match them is using Glyph of the Gladiator with Powerful Earthstorm Diamond - it will lower the amount of defense needed to become uncritable. So, you get a bit of both. When using Eternal Earthstorm Diamond, it may be beneficial to use Presence of Might (except in the most dire of progression needs) for the extra block value & health combination.

Joeker
04-16-2008, 06:34 AM
Here is how I feel about it. If I get the Eternal and put on the the Glyph of the Gladiator it would be like having the best of both gems in one area. 18 stam from the enchant and 10% BV would go a long way in both threat gen and EH. If I have looked at this the wrong way please correct me.

Arideni
04-16-2008, 07:53 AM
I knew what you wanted to do, but here's the thing -- may as well use Presence of Might if you're trying to maximize the SBV for PVE. Naturally, for PVP purposes (let's say with the Max SS damage build) it may be wiser to use Glyph of the Gladiator for its resilience. Of course, I don't really know of that many serious PVPers who take on resilience in an SBV set...Oh, yeah...we don't really have that itemization, do we?

That is an issue which Blizzard is most likely trying to avoid. I personally feel that Protection builds have the most potential to be a true PVE & PVP hybrid in the game. Blizzard is making us work hard PVE-wise to obtain this, thus keeping it out of reach for many players.

Joeker
04-16-2008, 08:04 AM
Thanks for the response on that. Yeah my guildmates think I am a little off for PVPing as prot...but I still think it's just plain fun shield slamming a caster. Have a good day Arideni and thanks for the response