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Ciderhelm
04-07-2008, 12:11 AM
User Interface, Keybinds, Macros & Hardware
Patrick O'Callahan "Ciderhelm" and Lore "LOL"
58:23


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http://media.libsyn.com/media/ciderhelm/UI_Keybinds_Macros__Hardware.mp3

Podcast Information
This podcast will be useful to any World of Warcraft player who wants or needs to learn more about effective game control. The information is relevant to players of all levels of progression. Class-specific advice is given for Warriors and Paladins.

As with this podcast, and when available in the future, Donors (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/general-discussion/36281-tankspot-donation-information.html) will see both the outlines and podcasts in advance of their post date.


Pre-Recording Outline
The following is the rough bullet-point we created prior to recording. There were several on-the-spot additions not represented here.

Questions

Why Keybinds are Important
-It's possible to become very proficient at clicking and keyboard turning.
-However, there's a hard cap that can't be overcome due to technical restrictions.
--taunt, mocking blow, etc -- when I do this, it's second nature
--cooldowns
--being able to turn quickly
--Muscle memory is an important concept. You're going to have to unlearn this stuff if you're very good, and it's going to suck.
---Try to do it when it will affect the least people. I raided Mon-Thur, so after thursday raid I would change keybinds or install new hardware
--[Lore] If you need help learning to turn with the mouse, unbind turn left and turn right from your keyboard and run around Orgrimmar/Ironforge for an hour

How to Optimize your Interface
--People have asked about my UI. Here's what I find effective:
--It's important to me to have both my rage bar and hitpoints
--Also important to have spell casting bar right in front of you
--UI forums run by Satrina
--[Lore] If you click things, have those buttons large and easy to reach

Keybinds
-Concept -- you want the rotation stuff EASILY available. I use 2, 3, 4, 4 for Shield Slam, Revenge, devastate, devastate. Practice it, 2, 3, 4, 4
-Keep unobstructed but important keys
-Numeric keypad for marking targets
-[Lore] Flip Camera
-This ties into movement -- when you know you have to move, turn your camera, get ready, then move.

Keyboard Binds
--tilda key for push to talk or spell interrupt
--F key is very easy to use, I use it for Thunderclap, CTRL F for Cleave
--1 for Taunt
--G for intercept/intervene macro
--Bind similar keys across stances to the same thing, especially with macros such as berserker rage. For instance, put Shield Slam as 2 in all stances, but also intercept/intervene macros and berserker rage
--[Lore] Keep keybinds distinct as well - don't blow Lay on Hands when you're just trying to get on your mount

Mouse Binds
-Mouse, shoot, bloodrage
-Click some stuff -- high cooldowns you don't want to screw up, heatlhstones, etc.

Gamepad Binds
-[Lore] Less keys to work with, so choose your binds wisely
-[Lore] Use of thumb adds mobility
-[Lore] Some keybinds stay on regular keyboard

Notes on Macros
--Fear Macro -- Berserker Rage
--Shield Slam -- this macro is important because you can reliably get 4 in, even with some latency issues
--[Lore] Righteous Defense - not as important in 2.4 but still important
--[Lore] Divine Shield/Cancel
--[Lore] Blessing of Protection
--[Lore] Healthstone
-Check our UI forum

Mice
Logitech MX518 - Mouse
Razer/Microsoft -- Microsoft teamed up with - Mouse
-Blue lit

Keyboard
-Cheap keyboard is fine
-Previously recommended the ergonomic
--I take that back; became frustrating the more I used it
-Microsoft Reclusa vs. Logitech G15
--Both very good
--Logitech gets an edge if you need additional macros

Gamepads
Nostromo N52
--[Lore] Be right handed
--[Lore] Programming software works on Mac and Windows


References
Sunwell Radiance Impact (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/general-discussion/36158-sunwell-radiance-impact.html)
Kel'Thuzad UI Example (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/../photoplog/index.php?n=7)
TankSpot User Interface Forums (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/user-interface-addons-macros/)
Mozman's Warrior Macros (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/user-interface-addons-macros/31899-wow-warrior-macros.html)
MainTankadin Paladin Macros (http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/viewtopic.php?t=54)
Red Light vs. Blue Light (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/blogs/ciderhelm/14-red-light-vs-blue-light-eventide.html)
Belkin N52 Speedpad (http://reviews.cnet.com/game-accessories/belkin-nostromo-n52-speedpad/4505-10110_7-30596987.html?tag=prod.txt.1)
Belkin N52 Tournament Edition (http://reviews.cnet.com/game-accessories/belkin-nostromo-n52te-speedpad/4505-10110_7-32685309.html?tag=prod.txt.2)
Microsoft Reclusa Gaming Keyboard (http://reviews.cnet.com/keyboards/microsoft-reclusa-gaming-keyboard/4505-3134_7-32330902.html?tag=prod.txt.1)
Logitech G15 Gaming Keyboard (http://reviews.cnet.com/keyboards/logitech-g15-gaming-keyboard/4505-3134_7-31549438.html?tag=prod.txt.1)
Microsoft Habu Gaming Mouse (http://reviews.cnet.com/mice/microsoft-habu-laser-gaming/4505-3148_7-32015352.html?tag=prod.txt.1)
Logitech MX518 Gaming Mouse (http://reviews.cnet.com/mice/logitech-mx518-gaming-grade/4505-3148_7-31310113.html?tag=prod.txt.1)


Corrections & Clarifications
Correction: Regarding humans, the question was regarding The Unbreakable Will (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=30874) vs. Mallet of the Tides (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=30058) vs. The Brutalizer (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=32254). I failed to mention Unbreakable Will, which makes the question seemingly more obvious than it actually was.

Clarification: 23 Expertise Skill is neither a cap nor a required minimum. 23 Expertise is to negate Dodge and a good portion of Parry; Parry rates are at least twice this, so adding more Expertise than this continues to be good. Conversely, any amount of Expertise is beneficial, but Expertise should not be stacked this high if it leaves you with dangerously low health, armor, or avoidance.

Correction: Made reference to index finger in regards to Tilda key. Meant to say ring finger.


Ask Me Anything -- What Are Your Questions?
Got a question or discussion subject? Post here or send myself or Lore a private message through our forums!

Rak
04-07-2008, 12:45 AM
...we know that many boss mobs have 10% Parry, but potentially have more, which is what 23 Expertise negates;...

I think you messed up your numbers here. 23 expertise is not 10% parry reduction, it's the 5.6% or so dodge reduction.

Ciderhelm
04-07-2008, 12:46 AM
I think you messed up your numbers here. 23 expertise is not 10% parry reduction, it's the 5.6% or so dodge reduction.

Thank you.

Lore
04-07-2008, 07:33 AM
Updated Healthstone macro from Invisusira on Maintankadin:

#showtooltip
/use item:22105
/use item:22104
/use item:22103
/use item:32578

Will use better healthstones first, or a Charged Crystal Focus.

Invisusira
04-07-2008, 07:41 AM
wow way to post faster than I can register, jerk!

Lore
04-07-2008, 07:58 AM
Way to not already be registered!

Shortypop
04-07-2008, 08:01 AM
Nice timing guys - seting up new computer tonight or tomorrow and redoing addons again :)

Slightly related question, I turned on "sticky targetting" recently, which I find really good for not accidentally losing targets in the middle of a fight. Anyone know if there is a way to change the "target nothing" from "escape" to another key, as if i'm typing or have bags open or something odd escape gets me out of there first and only off my target when I hit it again. That's probably not clear, but hopefully someone understands.

veneretio
04-07-2008, 11:08 AM
I love the 5 dollar keyboards as well! Great podcast guys!

Kraygor
04-07-2008, 01:00 PM
Great show guys!

A request for Cider. In your post, could you time stamp the different topics in your outline? I'd like to refer back to these podcasts later for ideas and advice. It would help tremendously, if I could zip right to the start of the topic I need.

I also have another philosophy to follow for keybinds. Keep a finger-region-based separation between abilities that are ON the GCD versus abilities that are OFF the GCD. Allow yourself to queue up Heroic Strike and Shield Block, while simultaneously maintaining your GCD threat rotation, without tying your fingers in a knot.

Anik
04-07-2008, 02:03 PM
Awesome

tobarstep
04-07-2008, 04:52 PM
All this time I never knew the n52 worked on a Mac. I have immediately ordered one (took me 1/2 hour to find a store with one in-stock).

Sadly, the store was out after all. All I can find is the n52te, which has gotten horrible reviews compared to the n52.

Lore
04-07-2008, 06:13 PM
I don't know that it comes with the macintosh software in the box (I can't find my discs atm) but there is macintosh software available on the website.

Taelas
04-07-2008, 08:30 PM
Nice timing guys - seting up new computer tonight or tomorrow and redoing addons again :)

Slightly related question, I turned on "sticky targetting" recently, which I find really good for not accidentally losing targets in the middle of a fight. Anyone know if there is a way to change the "target nothing" from "escape" to another key, as if i'm typing or have bags open or something odd escape gets me out of there first and only off my target when I hit it again. That's probably not clear, but hopefully someone understands.

You can make a macro with "/cleartarget" and bind it to a key.

Horacio
04-07-2008, 10:16 PM
Outstanding. I was listening to this while doing dailys in Netherstorm and was monkeying with keybinds and such the whole time. Seriously considering breaking out that Nostromo N52 I bought and never used and giving it another go.....

Taowlie
04-07-2008, 10:18 PM
Alot of great info in these podcasts, keep them up please!

Hollowskin
04-08-2008, 04:27 AM
I don't like offending people when they have done nothing offensive to me (and I hope this isn't).

However, I would think your podcasts would be much more effective with talking about one class. I lost interest with Lore's nervousness, "umm", losing points etc and rambling about his bad key bindings. I believe he knows what he is speaking of, however the presentation of it is not there.

Ciderhelm, I believe your podcasts will bring most listeners when you do the following:
-Make it about one class (i don't play a paladin- don't care about their abilities)
-Either have it you or another knowledgeful (same classed) player whom is an interesting speaker for the podcasts

If you're still interested in speaking of multiple tanking classes, I believe it will be more effective to make them separate podcasts.

I was a bit disappointed with Podcast #2, and I hope this was useful. I do like the length. I like listening to you ramble about your warrior experiences with a lot of powerful knowledge as a backup.

I admire the time and effort you put into this site, and I believe it's my responsibility to at least give you ideas. ^_^

You have my attention. I'll be listening in to the podcasts!

Ciderhelm
04-08-2008, 04:42 AM
My preference would be to have a knowledgeable Druid with a solid raid background in the mix as well, to round out all three classes.

Taelas
04-08-2008, 06:28 AM
I personally enjoyed the duality of the podcast very much. The fact that you don't care about paladins, Hollowskin, doesn't mean that the rest of TankSpot's visitors feel the same way.

I'd love for a druid to join in as well.

Horacio
04-08-2008, 06:33 AM
In all raiding environments currently it takes a variety of tanks of different classes working together. It is important to know how the other classes work mechanically to be the best at yours for your raid. There is a certain amount of overlap between the various classes as well.

I thought the podcast did a good job of blending the two in presentation and gave some insight on protadins. Tanking is not the exclusive domain of warriors any longer and I prefer the broader format to seperating each class out into thier own little niche.

Gomer
04-08-2008, 09:16 AM
Good Podcast. A few things, I've used a Nostromo N52 sense about June of 2005. Only recently do I feel I've really been using it to its full ability. I use the D-pad for movement(Forward/back) and left / right as strafing. Mouse for looks / Movement some times. The buttons I've set some what differently than what I've seen. I do a chorded setup.

Default Lay out.
1 2 3 4 5
6 7 8 9 0
1 2 3 4

My setup
(Cntrl) 1 2 3 4
(Shft) 5 6 7 8
(Tab) 9 0 -

Now using Bartender I can do a 4x3 matrix (only 11 buttons). This sets up the bars exactly as the buttons I will use for my main buttons.

Then I can setup my main bar in the middle and ctrl chorded buttons on the left and the shft chorded buttons on the right side. Plus a regular bar under this for Shft+Crtl chord. This means with the ability to chord shft/ctrl together, I have 44 buttons addressable from the speed pad.

This is just my setup. Using this setup and macros I can stream line my interface to have every ability displayed and addressable from the nostromo. Heres an example I bind my REV / SS / Dev to 5/6/7 because its the "home" row on N52. Then I have my Autoblocker/SS set to Shft-5. (same button but chorded and displayed on the screen) . If you wanted to use Alt instead of tab targeting, you could address 44 with two button chords and 77 with 3 button chords.

Let me know what you think.

duvar
04-08-2008, 09:28 AM
My keybinding setup is pretty unique. Most people who play warrior who have sat down on my keyboard to try it hate it. One thing unique about my setup is that I use NO MACROS. The second you drop a macro on your action bar, you lose a little bit of flexibility. What if I don't WANT to do all of that stuff that the macro does?

What a lot of people fail to realize though is that with clever use of standard action bar mechanics you can achieve a lot of the same effects as your macro does, with the added flexibility of not mashing it all into one macro.

Example: The standard Charge/Intervene/Intercept macro. Why is it necessary? Intervene requires Defensive Stance, Intercept requires Zerker Stance, and Charge requires Battle Stance. Your action bar changes depending on what stance you're in. Put all 3 of them in the same spot and you're gold. As long as your stance dancing is bound to a very easily accessible key, pressing two different buttons in succession is as fast as mashing the same button a million times until GCD is over.

So basically my whole action bar is set up like this. Mocking Blow / Taunt are on the keybind. Pummel / Shield Bash. etc. I also unbound ALL of my default interface functions like Map, Character Panel, etc and rebound them to Shift+<Default>. So like map is Shift+M, Character is Shift+C, etc. Then I use rtadfghzxcv12345 for all my commonly used keys. This way everything that I will ever need to access quickly is very close to my movement keys (qwes), and less frequently used stuff (shouts, bloodrage, etc) are on the F-keys.

ttocs
04-08-2008, 10:01 AM
I typically only use 2 macros:

Stance dance/fear break, and healthstone. Only becuase they're significantly easier than doing them manually, even with keybinds. Though, my keybinds can use some work.

duvar
04-08-2008, 11:02 AM
Actually I just realized I do use one macro. Intervene. I always have the mob targeted and I want to intervene his target, only less frequently do I have a player targeted that I want to intervene. So I made a macro that intervens target's target if an enemy is targeted, and target if a player is targeted. But it still fits with my philosophy of 1 button 1 action.

Ripper522
04-08-2008, 11:08 AM
do you guys post your podcasts to iTunes? its how I manage my podcasts, if not would you guys consider it?

Taelas
04-08-2008, 11:09 AM
Actually I just realized I do use one macro. Intervene. I always have the mob targeted and I want to intervene his target, only less frequently do I have a player targeted that I want to intervene. So I made a macro that intervens target's target if an enemy is targeted, and target if a player is targeted. But it still fits with my philosophy of 1 button 1 action.

You don't need a macro for this.

duvar
04-08-2008, 11:34 AM
There was a debate in my guild about this when I asked because I figured the same thing, and finally I just went out and tried hitting Intervene on a mob when it was going after someone else in my group, and nothing happened. I'm pretty sure I wasn't doing anything wrong >.>

Chuunks
04-08-2008, 11:41 AM
I found it vey effective to use my mouse buttons as my heroic strike rage dump.

In this way I can keep my normal rotation, and dump when necessary. Also I found that when I was clicking my heroic strike with the number keys, I would sometimes double-click it which would queue and unqueue the ability.

My other mouse button is for my Commanding Shout ..

Taelas
04-08-2008, 12:37 PM
There was a debate in my guild about this when I asked because I figured the same thing, and finally I just went out and tried hitting Intervene on a mob when it was going after someone else in my group, and nothing happened. I'm pretty sure I wasn't doing anything wrong >.>

I've never used a macro for it, and it's always worked for me -- and I've only very rarely selected the target to be Intervened.

Hypatia
04-08-2008, 01:19 PM
I will also chime in for "I'd rather have all of the tanking classes represented in every episode" rather than "stick to one class per episode." Being a good tank involves having at least a surface knowledge of how every other class/spec interacts with yours. Multiple tanks will interact in perhaps the most important ways, simply because you need to know how to back each other up.

I for one am rather unsatisfied with my knowledge of feral druids and protection paladins, and I welcome every chance for increasing my understanding.

Nayre
04-08-2008, 07:56 PM
I'm gonna agree with the multi-tank perspective, as well. It makes things more interesting, and, honestly, I like to learn more about the other tanks.

Turkson
04-08-2008, 10:46 PM
Need a druid tank.

And Lore needs to do 2-3 shots of Jack Daniels to loosen up.

Tobius
04-14-2008, 10:33 AM
Never bothered with mouseturning before and only been using a few keybinds in conjuction with clicking (HS and Cleave mainly). Gonna give it a proper go - if only I can convince some guildies to put up with some useless tanking for a bit :)

Fayre
04-15-2008, 07:46 AM
We put up with your useless tanking all the time, Tobius :D

These podcasts are a fantastic resource. Cheers for making them, Ciderhelm.

Throng
04-15-2008, 09:56 AM
Thoroughly enjoying the podcasts so far! Regarding this particular one, I just want to say that I've been using a Fang gamepad with my laptop for a couple of months and love it. The layout is great, it feels solid and I'm sure it'll last a good long while.
Personally, I'd recommend it, but each to their own :)

Lore
04-15-2008, 09:59 AM
Need a druid tank.

And Lore needs to do 2-3 shots of Jack Daniels to loosen up.

Done.

Kim
04-27-2008, 12:19 AM
Cider, you mentioned using health, rage, and cast indicator bars near your character. Can you suggest an addon for this?

Great work on the podcasts!

Thanks

cagneyed
06-02-2008, 10:09 PM
Hello,

Thank you for the excellent podcast! One thing that I was reminded of while listening to this episode was that the Logitech G15 macro keys do not work on the Mac (yet). They keyboard itself works fine, as well as the media keys, but the "G" keys and the LCD are not supported by Logitech or Apple.

Machus
07-27-2008, 08:48 AM
Hey, I'm a keyboard-turner and proud of it. Well, in most cases...

The point of this is that I use only the keyboard during a fight. All my abilities are bound to the right side of the keyboard (I'm right handed) so with both hands on the keyboard I'm very effective at using my rotations, hitting the panic buttons, stance-dancing, and so on. Doing these while moving (with the QWEASD keys) is no issue. Overall I feel this makes me more effective than trying to use my abilities with the left hand, or moving the right between mouse and keyboard.

Until Blizzard designs some stupid encounter like Kael'thas Sunstrider where they assume that you are a mouse-turner and fast loot-clicker. Bah! It also sucks in PvP obviously, which i don't do.

Maxlegosu
08-09-2008, 11:42 AM
i've been doing alot of PvP and... i just cant imagine how u could possibly fight a rogue using keyboard turn ! especialy when he pops sprint ! I use 'Q' and 'E' for turning only if my mouse is busy at clicking the few moves i dont have binds for,
nice podcast ! (thats my 1rst post! xD)
Oh, since I played alot of FPS games, I switched Q-E to A-D to strafe and A-D to Q-E to turn... I'm guessing that thats what everyone does ? And i was already use to turning my 'head' with the mouse... so in WoW, its basicaly the same, except that u have to right click while doing it.

Here I'll tell u guys what controls i use and a few things that I think help improving my speed as a WoW player.

Personnaly, i use 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - mouse3 - R - G - X
I use the standard F= assist, T= auto attack, Tab= switch target. And as i said, i sometimes use Q and E for turning.
As i leveled and learned new moves, I soon felt the need to add Shift and Ctrl to all of these. So now i play with those 9 keys + my 2 'modifier keys'. Thats 28 binds that i can push. I even use 6 and shift+6 but most of the time i click it coz I need to look at my keyboard for my finger to land properly on 6 :P

mouse3, shift+mouse3 and ctrl+mouse3 are my PANIC buttons, aka last stand, shiel wall and avoidance trinkets.
I think its nice to have those 3 ''oh-crap-moves'' on the same button. It makes it easier for me to remember what to click in those situations where u need to react fast. (thats also about the muscular memory :P )

As for my panic button, I like to bind any moves that i can associate together on the same button. For example, I have 'charge', 'intervene' and 'sprint' all binded on the number 4. That way, I know that when i need to charge at something, once im in the right stance, I always use the same key to perform a ''charge-like'' move.
Another nice exemple is my taunt key. I use X to taunt in defencive stance, and X for mocking blow in combat stance. I also use Shift+X for my mocking macro that switches me in combat stance. and guess what... i use Ctrl+X for my AoE taunt. Thats 3 taunts on the same button. Isnt it amazing ? Ctrl+X is just a little bit ''painful'' to click, so that way i know I aint gonna waste my AoE taunt CD due to miss clicking. xD

For thunderclap, i use Shift+1, which is another bind thats need a little effort to use. I like to have thunderclap on a ''difficult'' bind like that because its an AoE move that can break CC and wanna be 100% sure of what im doing when using that one. Also, I think thunderclap isnt a move that really needs to be pulled in a perfect timing, so, its a move u could offord to be clicking or to map a slower key.


I use shift+2 shift+3 and shift+4 for my 3 stances. I tried to use F1 F2 F3 but never did good at it =/ i wish i had a footswitch !
Anyways, i think its important to have your 3 stances lined in a row somewhere on your keyboard, wether its E-R-T, X-C-V, etc...


My friends think i'm crazy coz i use Shift and Ctrl all the time oO. I tell them they are nub clickers :P
The only thing that handicaps me i guess are the C and Z keys that refuse to remap coz i like using Z to DRAWWWW MYYY WEAAAPOONNN and C is a fast and fun way to look at your chars gear/stats... and they are default controls...

oh, i wrote alot.
Anyways, I guess that reading someones keymapping isnt that much electryfying so i'll stop now.
I just hope that maybe someone gonna find something usefull in this.

BONUS (lol)
The only macros i use are ''battle stance + mocking''', ''last stand + potion/HS'', and sometimes ''intervene + that_stupid_omenless_mage''. I wish i had a add-on that display a big ShieldBlock CD so i'd never forget to click it every 6 secs, coz from time to time I forget to click =/

Thats it ! my 1rst post in here as a nub geared tank ! i respecced prot from MS 2 weeks ago after like 2 years of playing my rogue and MS warr. I'm back into tanking and god I Love it !

Josey
09-03-2008, 09:29 PM
How do you keybind a letter to abilities not listed in keybindings? The stances are not listed in there.

Examples: Mapping Revenge to the Q key or the stances to letter keys.

Krete
09-22-2008, 02:43 PM
How do you keybind a letter to abilities not listed in keybindings? The stances are not listed in there.

Examples: Mapping Revenge to the Q key or the stances to letter keys.

Not sure how everyone else would do it, but I use bongos bar mods because I think their binding mechanism is top notch. Basically you put things on a bar, could be hidden or not and bind them to whatever you want. You can even assign bindings directly to abilities in your spell book or macro list.

On a side note, I enjoy this site quite a bit and just listened to this podcast today. I've been preaching this stuff for years!

My 2 cents. I'm in the "ESDF" movement club, with S and F still bound as "turn", but only use them in conjunction with right-click steering, which makes them behave as strafe instead of turn. I feel that ESDF gains some real estate over wasd, is more comfortable, and makes chatting seamless. I also do not have things like sit, unsheath/sheath weapon, character pane bound anymore. For example:

Z = Holy Shield
A = Consecrate
2 = SoR
3 = SoCr
4 = SoW
X = Exorcism
V = Bubble/unbubble macro
Shift-V = LoH
Alt-V = BoP macro
Wheelup = Judge (rebound camera zoom to shift+wheel)
WheelDwn = Hammer of Justice (see above)
Alt-Wheeldwn = Hammer of Wrath
middle mouse = Righteous Defense
Mouse side button1 = Vent
Mouse side button2 = cleanse
Alt-mouse side b2 = Avenger's sheild

That's a sample of how I have my bindings set up. I also do have an N52 speed pad, and I like it. The single most important thing I did when setting that up was using the D-pad at the thumb for my "modifier" keys (shift, ctrl, alt). Since I use a lot of shift+ and alt+ bindings, this made it incredibly comfortable and quick. Instead of doing some weird hand contortions to hit alt-v, its a very comfortable no-movement action.

Anyway, hopefully this is helpful to someone :) Love the site and the podcasts!